Source of homophobia may not just be "religion"

[90sAce]

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/LGBT_rights_in_Mongolia

Here's an interesting cultural theory. Looks like the route cause of homophobia may not be "religions"- but actually how war-like the culture is (or was).

For example homosexuality was punishable by death under Ghengis Khan in Medieval Mongolia. And the Aztes in central America also had severe punishments for homosexuals (while more peaceful Indian tribes had a more tolerant attitude toward it). None of these cultures had any relation to Christianity (or Islam).

So likely homophobia isn't actually just a "Christian/Muslim thing" - it's most likely something which exists strongest in warrior or militaristic like the Mongols, Aztecs, and ancient Israelites too (so this also explains why Christianity and Islam are known to be homophobic, since their religion is rooted in the culture of ancient Israel, which was an authoritarian, warlike tribe in the Middle East).

Most likely since these cultures had low life expectancy and high mortality rates, they strongly emphasized sex as being strictly for procreation and therefore developed negative cultural attitudes and punishments towards gays:

In medieval times, engaging in homosexual activity was punishable by death.[3]

As of present, LGBT-peoples lack visibility in Mongolia. While the country does not have much homophobia, as stated by westerners traveling to the country, there is also not much of a public acknowledgment of homosexuality.

---

Aztecs placed a high premium on "manly", "assertive" behavior, and a corresponding stigma on "submissive" behavior. When conquered people were not sacrificed on temple altars, the males of conquered nations were often demoted to the status of women.[14][15] The penalties for male homosexual intercourse were severe. Mexica law punished sodomy with the gallows, impalement for the active homosexual, extraction of the entrails through the anal orifice for the passive homosexual, and death by garrote for the lesbians.[16] In Tenochtitlan, they hanged homosexuals. In nearby Texcoco, the active partner was "bound to a stake, completely covered with ashes and so left to die; the entrails of the passive agent were drawn out through his anus, he was then covered with ashes, and wood being added, the pile was ignited."

More examples of "war" or "military cultures" which are anti-gay:

North Korea (Communist)

Homosexuality is not de jure illegal in North Korea, but the government does not recognize LGBT rights, and official government propaganda views homosexuality as product of foreign decadence and moral degeneracy.

Soviet Union (Communist)

In 1933, Article 121 was added to the criminal code, for the entire Soviet Union, that expressly prohibited only male homosexuality, with up to five years of hard labor in prison. There were no criminal statutes regarding lesbianism. During the Soviet regime, Western observers believed that between 800 to 1,000 men were imprisoned each year under Article 121.[13] The precise reason for the new law is still in some dispute.[citation needed]

[jrs]

All of these sites and articles posting so called causes of homosexuality and transsexualism and etc. are pathetic. Leave people be and let them live the way they choose. Instead of trying to fix them to a level others seem fit.

[90sAce]

All of these sites and articles posting so called causes of homosexuality and transsexualism and etc. are pathetic.

If you had read the full post before replying you'd see it was talking about the cause of homophobia, not the cause of homosexuality.

The articles show that there's a likely correlation between warlike, militaristic cultures and homophobic attitudes.


Leave people be and let them live the way they choose. Instead of trying to fix them to a level others seem fit.
Did you read what was posted or is that just a pure non-sequiter?

[Camo]

If you had read the full post before replying you'd see it was talking about the cause of homophobia, not the cause of homosexuality.

The articles show that there's a likely correlation between warlike, militaristic cultures and homophobic attitudes.


Did you read what was posted or is that just a pure non-sequiter?

I agree that jrs didn't read that, but the article shows nothing at most it gives an opinion on " warlike, militaristic cultures and homophobic attitudes.". I read every word of it and I have no idea why you think it is anything more than an opinion piece?

[90sAce]

I agree that jrs didn't read that, but the article shows nothing at most it gives an opinion on " warlike, militaristic cultures and homophobic attitudes.". I read every word of it and I have no idea why you think it is anything more than an opinion piece?
It was a list of exerpts from Wikipedia in various countries with warlike or militaristic heritages such as

Mongolia in the Middle Ages
Aztec empire
North Korea
Soviet Union
Ancient Israel

All of these cultures were anti-gay, and despite having no ethnic or cultural relation to each other, the one thing they have in common is an authoritarian and warlike culture, along with high mortality and low life expectancy - so I believe this correlates with homophobia, most likely due to high mortality there was a strong emphasis on procreation being a sexual responsibility. (You'll notice how a lot of anti-gay rhetoric focuses on how it's "unnatural" since gays don't reproduce).

While cultures with less warfare and mortality such as modern France, Sweden, etc are the most gay tolerant. Not to mention that Indian tribes which were less warlike than the Aztecs were also more tolerant of gays.

[MovieBuffering]

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/LGBT_rights_in_Mongolia

So likely homophobia isn't actually just a "Christian/Muslim thing" - it's most likely something which exists strongest in warrior or militaristic like the Mongols, Aztecs, and ancient Israelites too (so this also explains why Christianity and Islam are known to be homophobic, since their religion is rooted in the culture of ancient Israel, which was an authoritarian, warlike tribe in the Middle East).


(I didn't read the articles) But to me, what you wrote here, it sorta explains why the Bilble and Quran outlaw homosexuality. Books were written by men. Men exposed to these societies. Maybe they were trying to control people. Maybe they thought they were actually being a moral compass. Maybe they were tripping on drugs. But if there is a God or Gods I severely doubt they care if anyone is gay. It would be like if Tim Tebow came out gay. Do you think God and Jesus are going be like "yeaaaa you were pretty much our best PR guy but you kiss guys so I can't let you in"

Anyways I don't think I really added anything to the homophobia part but that paragraph struck me as it concerns to religion and religions rules. Maybe those cultures, that predate a lot of current religion, is where hatred of homosexuals in religion came about.

[jrs]

If you had read the full post before replying ...

I read the post. Glad you read mine.

[bouncingbrick]

I didn't read the article and I only skimmed your first post, but, based on just the title, I can tell you that religion isn't the only thing that makes people homophobic. In fact, I knew before you posted this that religion wasn't the only thing that causes homophobia because I'm smart enough to realize that all people are different and are motivated by different things. I know that's an amazing revelation.

Some people are homophobic just because the idea of two men or two women together in a sexual context is "icky" to them. That has nothing to do with God. Some people see it as an unnatural set of circumstances. Some people just can't get over that particular empathy hump to understand homosexuality as something similar to their own heterosexuality. Some people are just a-holes.

There, problem solved and I didn't need some stupid article to tell me.

[-KhaN-]

I agree with BB on some stuff, I guess when its not about Batman we can agree on stuff. Back on topic, there is no need to repeat what he said so I'll just add few things. Is it really that surprising Mongolians didn't enjoy homosexuality (I'm gonna use term gay from now, its much shorter and really not offensive) ? Imagine this situation, Genghis Khan creates this huge empire, his son is future Khan, and what happens if he is gay? His line stops! I hope we all understand how important that was during big part of history. I'll be honest here I dislike gays, and it is not based on how they chose partners, its based on cocky behavior, if I kick gay I'm going to prison instantly, there would be huge media following, everyone would be sorry, politicians would be there etc. If someone kicks the living **** out of me, nothing would happen, maybe local radio would care, maybe. They also act like they don't have rights but in reality they have more right than anyone else. If I don' t give job to gay person, he can go on to say its because he is gay, when in reality he is just bad worker. Nobody cares about them until they start asking for parades, that happens in Serbia, you think I talk about them in my daily life? No I don't. You think people attack gay parades only for one reason? When you take in all the benefits they have, when you consider how country will again pay a lot of money just so few of them can parade, when you consider how 5.000 cops from all over the country protect these events, when people are pissed about many other problems...Is it wonder stuff like this happens? One guy held sign "death to the country" while cops protect him, you think people would hit him because he is gay? Yea church dislikes gay, but they equally dislike church. And let's not even mention how anything negative you say about them is consider homophobic. Saying "they are born like that" is such a nonsense, people are born with diseases and mental illness all the time, it ain't good excuse. Also, to add little controversy, I think they shouldn't adopt kids for obvious no mother/father reason.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

Some people are homophobic just because the idea of two men or two women together in a sexual context is "icky" to them. If it was normal in nature we would not have propagated the species and would not be here today. :shifty:

[Miss Vicky]

If it was normal in nature we would not have propagated the species and would not be here today. :shifty:

A lot of animals exhibit homosexual behaviors, including our closest relative the bonobo. :shrug:

[-KhaN-]

A lot of animals exhibit homosexual behaviors, including our closest relative the bonobo. :shrug:

Some animals doing it dose not mean its normal. :shrug:

[Miss Vicky]

Some animals doing it dose not mean its normal. :shrug:

Disagree, but regardless only some members of our species (and of the other species that practice it) actually engage in that behavior anyway. So it's clearly not detrimental to the continuation of a species.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

I'm straight but there are a few men who make me think twice about my persuasion, Sexy is obviously one. Here's a few others:
http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lstcj1dUGn1r1x3gxo1_500.gif

http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users16/farfora/default/bill-blue-eyes--large-msg-12185639484.jpg

http://mobys.ws/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/300-scaled.jpg

[-KhaN-]

Disagree, but regardless only some members of our species (and of the other species that practice it) actually engage in that behavior anyway. So it's clearly not detrimental to the continuation of a species.

That is because very minor part is doing it, if that changed...

[The Gunslinger45]

I'm straight but there are a few men who make me think twice about my persuasion, Sexy is obviously one. Here's a few others:

http://mobys.ws/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/300-scaled.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXN3aFfbd-o

[Mr Minio]

http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lstcj1dUGn1r1x3gxo1_500.gif

I was already unzipping my pants, but then I read it's a man. WTF.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I was already unzipping my pants, but then I read it's a man. WTF.

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=21839&stc=1&d=1434836090

[Sexy Celebrity]

http://mobys.ws/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/300-scaled.jpg

Sci-Fi Slob --- threesome????

[Mr Minio]

I come to conclusion I'm 100% straight. Even though I find Fassbender very handsome I would not engage in any kind of sexual interaction with him.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

Sci-Fi Slob --- threesome????Let's go for it! Just watch where he puts that club.;)

[jrs]

Some people are homophobic...

https://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0k02hXtDg1r03eqso1_500.gif

[Sexy Celebrity]

We get it, jrs. You don't like homophobes. Now shut up and kiss a man.

[Mr Minio]

Phobia means fear, so homophobia should mean that these people are literally SCARED of homosexuals, like running away from them, screaming. Just like with arachnophobia. xDDDDDDDDDD

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

Phobia means fear, so homophobia should mean that these people are literally SCARED of homosexuals, like running away from them, screaming. Just like with arachnophobia. xDDDDDDDDDDI don't think that analogy does homosexuals any favors.:D

[Sexy Celebrity]

People love to overuse and accuse everyone at the drop of a hat of "homophobia" or "transphobia."

[tatmmw2]

Homophobia is so stupid, phobia is something that scared you but they aren't "scared" of guys wearing make-up. In bible it's said that it is an abomination, but I guess that "love your neighbor like he was yourself" is just a saying and we can discriminate and call abomination at everything that is not specified in the bible.

[90sAce]

Some animals doing it dose not mean its normal. :shrug:
It definitely shines light away from the idea that it's a solely human construct (or that it's caused by 'demonic possession').

Medical studies show that the brain structure of homosexuals slightly resembles that of the opposite sex - so "normal" is a matter of opinion, but I don't believe people "choose" to be gay.

[90sAce]

I agree with BB on some stuff, I guess when its not about Batman we can agree on stuff. Back on topic, there is no need to repeat what he said so I'll just add few things. Is it really that surprising Mongolians didn't enjoy homosexuality (I'm gonna use term gay from now, its much shorter and really not offensive) ? Imagine this situation, Genghis Khan creates this huge empire, his son is future Khan, and what happens if he is gay? His line stops! I hope we all understand how important that was during big part of history. I'll be honest here I dislike gays, and it is not based on how they chose partners, its based on cocky behavior, if I kick gay I'm going to prison instantly, there would be huge media following, everyone would be sorry, politicians would be there etc. If someone kicks the living **** out of me, nothing would happen, maybe local radio would care, maybe. They also act like they don't have rights but in reality they have more right than anyone else. If I don' t give job to gay person, he can go on to say its because he is gay, when in reality he is just bad worker. Nobody cares about them until they start asking for parades, that happens in Serbia, you think I talk about them in my daily life? No I don't. You think people attack gay parades only for one reason? When you take in all the benefits they have, when you consider how country will again pay a lot of money just so few of them can parade, when you consider how 5.000 cops from all over the country protect these events, when people are pissed about many other problems...Is it wonder stuff like this happens? One guy held sign "death to the country" while cops protect him, you think people would hit him because he is gay? Yea church dislikes gay, but they equally dislike church. And let's not even mention how anything negative you say about them is consider homophobic. Saying "they are born like that" is such a nonsense, people are born with diseases and mental illness all the time, it ain't good excuse. Also, to add little controversy, I think they shouldn't adopt kids for obvious no mother/father reason.
I have a problem with "political correctness" in general, that doesn't only apply to gays. For example, if a racial minority if a victim of a crime, the media automatically assumes "racism" first, and ask questions later.

There's also an assumption that a non-minority can 'never' be a victim simply shouldn't complain because "they've had it better historically", as well as promotion of affirmative action (positive discrimination) based on this idea. It would be like awarding the World Series to the losing team instead of the Yankees, then telling the Yankees they need to quit whining because "they have enough World Series wins anyway".

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

Medical studies show that the brain structure of homosexuals slightly resembles that of the opposite sex - so "normal" is a matter of opinion, but I don't believe people "choose" to be gay.I've heard that testosterone deficiency and hormone imbalance are a factor as well.

[Sexy Celebrity]

It's none of those things. It's all based on psychological needs. Even in animals. Nobody is born gay or straight. They become it.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

It's none of those things. It's all based on psychological needs. Even in animals. Nobody is born gay or straight. They become it.How old were you when you first realized?

[jrs]

It's none of those things. It's all based on psychological needs. Even in animals. Nobody is born gay or straight. They become it.

How old were you when you first realized?

SC just makes things up.

[Sexy Celebrity]

SC just makes things up.

Yeah, because you really read stuff and have the life experience I have......

No. All you do is chant back to us whatever you're told to say by others.

[jrs]

All you do is chant back to us whatever you're told to say by others.

Yes exactly. I have some mysterious person telling me when to respond to others. :)

[90sAce]

It's none of those things. It's all based on psychological needs. Even in animals. Nobody is born gay or straight. They become it.
Whatever environmental factors contribute to it, I don't believe that a straight boy who 'grows up without a father' or 'doesn't play football in school' just 'turns gay' the second he hits puberty. If the person doesn't have the genetic component, they aren't just going to turn gay.

Men who are isolated from women sometimes have gay sex (ex. prison sexuality), but that doesn't mean they "became gay" - it means they're desperate (ex. Big Bubbha probably close his eyes and imagines that 'Wifey' is a woman.)

[90sAce]

I've heard that testosterone deficiency and hormone imbalance are a factor as well.
Possibly - the majority of this I believe is due to the development during the fetal stage.

If just not having enough testosterone turned men gay, I think that we'd be seeing a lot more gays than we do, considering how many men in the 21st Century don't have a clue how to eat healthy, and prefer spending hours playing CoD to working out.

Low-T might result in an effeminate guy, but I don't think something as radical as becoming attracted to the opposite sex can happen from environment alone. Plus there are 'manly' gays and transgenders, such as the transgendered Navy Seal.

[matt72582]

A gay man in prison who is surrounded by ONLY women wouldn't be considered straight if he had sex with one of them, would he?

[90sAce]

A gay man in prison who is surrounded by ONLY women wouldn't be considered straight if he had sex with one of them, would he?
I've seen a few trannies who looked convincingly like women, and while I was mentally picturing them as women I felt aroused, but as soon as I learned they were a man the arousal stopped.

So I don't think men having gay sex in prison actually 'became gay' - I think they're desperate and just using their imagination to pretend it's a woman.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Whatever environmental factors contribute to it, I don't believe that a straight boy who 'grows up without a father' or 'doesn't play football in school' just 'turns gay' the second he hits puberty. If the person doesn't have the genetic component, they aren't just going to turn gay.

Men who are isolated from women sometimes have gay sex (ex. prison sexuality), but that doesn't mean they "became gay" - it means they're desperate (ex. Big Bubbha probably close his eyes and imagines that 'Wifey' is a woman.)

Then who's to say there's such a thing as "gay" or "straight"?

There may be a genetic component that could cause someone to go a certain way, but that gene may not be a "gay gene" or a "straight gene."

No One is Born Gay (or Straight): Here Are 5 Reasons Why (http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/)

[90sAce]

Then who's to say there's such a thing as "gay" or "straight"?

There may be a genetic component that could cause someone to go a certain way, but that gene may not be a "gay gene" or a "straight gene."

No One is Born Gay (or Straight): Here Are 5 Reasons Why (http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/)
No one believes there's a "gay gene", they just believe that genes play a role it it, it's not just the result of external influence as many believe.

[Sexy Celebrity]

No one believes there's a "gay gene", they just believe that genes play a role it it, it's not just the result of external influence as many believe.

But that kind of thinking makes people think external influences have nothing to do with it, so they can do whatever they want and their kids won't turn out to be gay unless they were born gay. The idea is that people come out of the womb and they're already gay. That's why they say they're "born this way."

I think external influences can play a part in it -- but nobody ever wants to hear about that anymore. The idea now is to treat gay people as if they were born gay, as if there's a gene that causes gayness. That you're born gay (or straight) and there's no possibility that you'll ever be anything else.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

The idea now is to treat gay people as if they were born gay, as if there's a gene that causes gayness. That you're born gay (or straight) and there's no possibility that you'll ever be anything else.The possibility of being something else denotes choice, but you said being gay is not a choice.:shrug:

[matt72582]

I've seen a few trannies who looked convincingly like women, and while I was mentally picturing them as women I felt aroused, but as soon as I learned they were a man the arousal stopped.

So I don't think men having gay sex in prison actually 'became gay' - I think they're desperate and just using their imagination to pretend it's a woman.

I saw a few "ladyboys" in Thailand and was horrified when I saw their face and didn't fake it and try to hide so I can prove to the world I'm so hip and tolerant, a;though I am.

I'm all for equal rights, mariage, etc etc., but I don't like double standards; a homosexual can make advances toward a straight man, but probably would be accused of a homophobic man if he objects strongly, yet if a straight man flirts or talks about sex to a straight women (where chance of them hooking up isn't impossible as in the previous scenario) he is considered a pervert. I thought the entire point of "progress" was to get rid of victimization, and not to alternate it... I also think it's my right to think it's gross, and to be disgusted when I see men kissing on TV.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I saw a few "ladyboys" in Thailand and was horrified when I saw their face and didn't fake it and try to hide so I can prove to the world I'm so hip and tolerant, a;though I am.

I'm all for equal rights, mariage, etc etc., but I don't like double standards; a homosexual can make advances toward a straight man, but probably would be accused of a homophobic man if he objects strongly, yet if a straight man flirts or talks about sex to a straight women (where chance of them hooking up isn't impossible as in the previous scenario) he is considered a pervert. I thought the entire point of "progress" was to get rid of victimization, and not to alternate it... I also think it's my right to think it's gross, and to be disgusted when I see men kissing on TV.

That's fine, but I wouldn't call you hip and tolerant.

[donniedarko]

I saw a few "ladyboys" in Thailand and was horrified when I saw their face and didn't fake it and try to hide so I can prove to the world I'm so hip and tolerant, a;though I am.

I'm all for equal rights, mariage, etc etc., but I don't like double standards; a homosexual can make advances toward a straight man, but probably would be accused of a homophobic man if he objects strongly, yet if a straight man flirts or talks about sex to a straight women (where chance of them hooking up isn't impossible as in the previous scenario) he is considered a pervert. I thought the entire point of "progress" was to get rid of victimization, and not to alternate it... I also think it's my right to think it's gross, and to be disgusted when I see men kissing on TV.

That's not very hippy like of you

[matt72582]

That's not very hippy like of you

Some people mistaken me for a hippie, but I don't belong to groups, and dislike how it rids individuality, how it breeds conformity.

I don't see how it's "anti-hippie" though. Being your own person is true liberalism, and not having a value system with a stockbroker mentality. A sheep is one of the worst things one can be. As Bertrand Russell said, "Conformity is death."

[Mr Minio]

A gay man in prison who is surrounded by ONLY women wouldn't be considered straight if he had sex with one of them, would he? Why only one?
I've seen a few trannies who looked convincingly like women, and while I was mentally picturing them as women I felt aroused, but as soon as I learned they were a man the arousal stopped. Did you learn the next day after the one night stand? Was there love? xD

[ash_is_the_gal]

The idea now is to treat gay people as if they were born gay, as if there's a gene that causes gayness.

i bet most gay people wouldn't care if you treated them like they were "born that way" or it was 'psychological' as long as you treated them like human beings. that other part is kinda irrelevant. i think they just care about being accepted as they are. the point is, they're gay, it's not something that needs to be fixed or changed.

[Thursday Next]

Just because something isn't genetic doesn't mean that it's not real.

SC is right that we don't actually know if it is genetic, just as we don't really know what causes some people to be more intelligent, or good at sport, or have a certain personality.