View Full Version : No More Bruce.....Say Hello to Caitlyn!
http://www.omgblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/brucejennervanityfair2015-500x701-500x701.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OwDp2LMVbg
Cole416
06-01-15, 06:57 PM
Why is this a thread...
Sexy Celebrity
06-01-15, 06:59 PM
Why is this a thread...
This was almost an SC thread, but JRS beat me. I was gonna try to trick people into thinking that Caitlyn, the long lost MoFo moderator, had come back, but it was only Bruce Jenner.
Cole416
06-01-15, 07:51 PM
Lol that'd be perfect.
rauldc14
06-01-15, 07:57 PM
Is this a joke? What on earth....
Monkeypunch
06-01-15, 08:10 PM
This was almost an SC thread, but JRS beat me. I was gonna try to trick people into thinking that Caitlyn, the long lost MoFo moderator, had come back, but it was only Bruce Jenner.
I thought this was one of yours when I saw the title pop up. LOL.
But hey, congrats to her! Life's too short to not be who you are, to hell with people who are going to say bad things about it. :cool:
Sexy Celebrity
06-01-15, 08:31 PM
I am actually so sick of hearing about Bruce Jenner, AKA Caitlyn.
rauldc14
06-01-15, 08:43 PM
And hes getting a courage award?!? Please.....
But hey, congrats to her! Life's too short to not be who you are, to hell with people who are going to say bad things about it. :cool:
The only normal response. And only non bigot in this thread. Congrats.
Cole416
06-01-15, 08:48 PM
The only normal response. And only non bigot in this thread. Congrats.
Nice, I'm a bigot because I don't feel like this needs a thread. People go through this everyday, don't see the big deal in a guy who hasn't been exactly relevant for a while to do it.
Monkeypunch
06-01-15, 08:52 PM
The only normal response. And only non bigot in this thread. Congrats.
I don't understand why anyone would be bigoted about this. It really doesn't affect their lives in ANY way. If you get angry about others living their lives how it feels right for them, then you're the one with the problem, not them.
And it's news because it's someone famous. That's really the only reason anyone cares. Welcome to America!
Nice, I'm a bigot because I don't feel like this needs a thread. People go through this everyday, don't see the big deal in a guy who hasn't been exactly relevant for a while to do it.
This is something of relevancy to social media and to every day life. And not everyone goes through something like this, but it's something to be proud of if someone goes through it.
Just because it has nothing to do with a movie you like, or you have no relation to what Bruce Jenner has been going through, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a thread. Anything can be discussed in here as a matter of fact.
And besides a person doesn't need to 'be relevant' to do what he did. He has become relevant because of what he did.
Sexy Celebrity
06-01-15, 09:01 PM
This is something of relevancy to social media and to every day life.
Really? We're all a bunch of transsexuals who need to operate on our genitals and bodies?
And not everyone goes through something like this, but it's something to be proud of if someone goes through it.
Pfffffffft!
And it's news because it's someone famous. That's really the only reason anyone cares. Welcome to America!
If you didn't care you wouldn't be responding to my thread.
Monkeypunch
06-01-15, 09:08 PM
If you didn't care you wouldn't be responding to my thread.
That makes no sense. I said people care because it's a famous person, I never said nobody cares.:)
That makes no sense. I said people care because it's a famous person, I never said nobody cares.:)
You said "it's news because it's someone famous. That's really the only reason anyone cares" If a person didn't care about this subject and the situation, a person wouldn't be responding . 'You' technically didn't mean you specifially...it was meant to be people in general.
All in all, I hope people accept Bruce's transformation and what he went through. Be human about this and not judge.
I shall go watch a movie now. :cool:
The Rodent
06-02-15, 01:37 AM
Who is he? Been seeing this guy on that dippy Facebook trending page, but never bothered clicking.
Seems like a non-entity to me. Like the Kardashians.
Frightened Inmate No. 2
06-02-15, 01:40 AM
really can't tell if that last part is sarcastic.
The Rodent
06-02-15, 01:41 AM
Genuinely. I have no idea who this guy is.
I could easily Google him, but, I can't be arsed.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 01:48 AM
How can you not know who that is? She's, like, the most important person in the world right now.
The Rodent
06-02-15, 01:52 AM
He.
In 1000 years when Time Team dig his bones up, no matter how much plastic surgery he's had will trick an archaeologist.
By law he may be known as a woman, but his DNA and bone structure will always be male. He will always be XY.
The Rodent
06-02-15, 01:54 AM
Holy crap.
I've just Googled him. My comment about the Kardashians was totally coincidental. Wiki says he was married to one of them.
So like, this is why the Kardashians are famous?
I get it now.
Well, Bruce was a gold-winning Olympic decathlete in 1976 and was in the classic Can't Stop the Music with the Village People. By the way, she was married to Kris Kardashian for 23 years.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 02:09 AM
He was even on a box of Wheaties.
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=21691&stc=1&d=1433221779
This thread is disappointing...
He was even on a box of Wheaties.
At a quick glance I thought this said he has an X-Box. I must be playing too much.
Iroquois
06-02-15, 06:00 AM
This thread is disappointing...
It is slightly better than I expected. The split between the positive reactions and the negative ones is fairly even, which obviously could be better but also could have been worse. Anyway, good for Caitlyn and to hell with the haters who can't even use the right pronouns.
earlsmoviepicks
06-02-15, 08:32 AM
I'm trying to do this with minimal pronouns...
Jenner gets a pass from me cause I remember Jenner as a hero back in the day. Personally I think it's weird as ****, but if it makes Jenner happy, all the more power to Jenner.
However, there is no excuse for this whole Kardashian media frenzy, that is a blight.....
rauldc14
06-02-15, 09:42 AM
Still is Bruce Jenner and still is a he.
This was almost an SC thread, but JRS beat me. I was gonna try to trick people into thinking that Caitlyn, the long lost MoFo moderator, had come back, but it was only Bruce Jenner.
But hey, congrats to her! Life's too short to not be who you are
This is a non-story to me but since everyone seems hell bent on everyone's opinion on it.
Isn't he doing the exact opposite of your statement?
Iroquois
06-02-15, 10:02 AM
Still is Bruce Jenner and still is a he.
No.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:05 AM
No.
Yes.
Iroquois
06-02-15, 10:08 AM
Yes.
Why?
Are you actually asking why? Because flat contradictions and accusations of bigotry aren't usually the kinds of things you trot out when you're interested in a discussion.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:14 AM
Because you can't truly change who you are. If my name were Raul and I wanted to be Julia that's all fine and dandy, but I'm still Raul, hair extensions, breasts inclusions or what not. You are who you were born as.
I won't go on in this thread because I am not going to feed on this story that has become bigger than. It really should be.
If I am a prick, so be it. If I am a bigot, so be it. Our culture says be who you are and be proud no matter what. Until you don't like who you are, then change into what you feel you should be. Your born that way, until you don't like the wsy you were born, then change that too. We live in a society of instant self-gratification and contradictions. We are literally driving ourselves mad and over medicating ourselves by both legal and illegal means to try to make ourselves happy and none of it works. As a whole we grow more miserable each and every day. We say be happy and live as who we are and celebrate the exact opposite of that.
Many here are going to say I am condemning Jenner, I am not. He is a sad product of what our society has become. Damn me to hell if you must. I am going to be comfortable in who I am and what I observe.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:26 AM
Those were the words I was looking for Sean. :up:
Iroquois
06-02-15, 10:30 AM
Are you actually asking why? Because flat contradictions and accusations of bigotry aren't usually the kinds of things you trot out when you're interested in a discussion.
I take it I should have actually led off with asking why.
Because you can't truly change who you are. If my name were Raul and I wanted to be Julia that's all fine and dandy, but I'm still Raul, hair extensions, breasts inclusions or what not. You are who you were born as.
I won't go on in this thread because I am not going to feed on this story that has become bigger than. It really should be.
The thing about Caitlyn Jenner is that she's not Bruce changing to Caitlyn so much as she's Caitlyn pretending to be Bruce for a long time due to various societal pressures (not least of which is being a very public figure, whether as an Olympian athlete or as a result of being a significant figure in celebrity culture) and finally deciding to brave any possible consequences and be true to herself. It's not about a man deciding to be a woman so much as it is a woman who can't go on pretending to be a man.
Anyway, this story does deserve to be big as it is not because of Caitlyn's connection to the Kardashians but because it's not every day that someone famous comes out as transgender. Trans people still face more than their fair share of marginalisation in manners great and small, whether physical violence or verbal discrimination, and if such a recognisable person comes out and is accepted for who they are then it's a step away from said marginalisation. To disregard that so flippantly does come across as disrespectful at best.
I wonder what Wheaties taste like. Other than that, I don't care about a new shemale.
It's not about a man deciding to be a woman so much as it is a woman who can't go on pretending to be a man.
What do you think led to this? Because to me it is an indictment on the social gender stereotypes that we pretend to decry.
The Rodent
06-02-15, 10:36 AM
I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality, transgender or whatever... my Sister was the first gay marriage in Britain.
If either of my kids turn round one day and say they want to change sex, I'm cool with it.
If you're Male, but want to be known as a Female and wants the law and society to treat you as a Female, fine, good, go for it...
But I'll say the same to anyone as I said on here today... your are Female at birth, you're Female for life... the same for Males.
No amount of hormone tablets and plastic surgery to remove certain, erm, appendages, is going to change that.
Your DNA, your bone structure, the very genetic makeup of your body is set when you were still in the womb and cannot be reversed or changed.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:37 AM
What were those parents thinking? Clearly he was Caitlyn all the time, how dare they name him Bruce.
He didn't have a problem being Bruce for 65 years of his life. I don't think when he was 20 he was saying to himself "I wish I wasn't Bruce". I think this is something that has transpired over the past 15 or so years, not 65.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:38 AM
I agree with Rodent. No problem with them at all but you can't change your sex no matter how many surgeries you have.
The Rodent
06-02-15, 10:39 AM
The big question should be... if Bruce has "always been Caitlyn"... that means a woman competed in those Men's races.
Should be stripped of those medals if I'm completely honest.
The Rodent
06-02-15, 10:41 AM
I never go nasty... I just go logical and truthful.
Iroquois
06-02-15, 10:49 AM
If I am a prick, so be it. If I am a bigot, so be it. Our culture says be who you are and be proud no matter what. Until you don't like who you are, then change into what you feel you should be. Your born that way, until you don't like the wsy you were born, then change that too. We live in a society of instant self-gratification and contradictions. We are literally driving ourselves mad and over medicating ourselves by both legal and illegal means to try to make ourselves happy and none of it works. As a whole we grow more miserable each and every day. We say be happy and live as who we are and celebrate the exact opposite of that.
Many here are going to say I am condemning Jenner, I am not. He is a sad product of what our society has become. Damn me to hell if you must. I am going to be comfortable in who I am and what I observe.
To look at someone who has struggled with gender identity issues for years and think that their decision to be recognised by their true identity is nothing more than "instant self-gratification" is an extremely reductive way of looking at it. It's not like going through with a physical gender reassignment is some kind of spur-of-the-moment thing - it takes years of psychiatric therapy and whatnot before it even gets started. Even then, it's not like having a gender identity different to your assigned gender means you have to go through with a literal sex-change. Trying to treat gender identity as a vice comparable with self-medication is disrespectful not just to transgender people but also to addicts. From all accounts, Caitlyn is genuinely happy to be able to openly express her gender identity as she does, so I'm not sure how this is celebrating the exact opposite of living as you are.
If there is anything about Caitlyn Jenner that could be considered a sad product of what our society has become, it's that she had to wait this long to even begin to be openly true to herself because of the various levels of transphobia coded into modern society. Violence, abuse, etc. Those are the real sad things about society, not some famous person deciding to be honest not just with themselves but with their loved ones and the general public.
I take it I should have actually led off with asking why.
Aye; and I think calling people "haters" probably sends the wrong signal about what kind of discussion you're looking for, if you're trying to have a mature one.
If you are, then great. Let's start:
It's not about a man deciding to be a woman so much as it is a woman who can't go on pretending to be a man.
All this really means is that you define the word "woman" to mean "anyone who says they feel like a woman," right? To other people, that word is based in biology, and not much is accomplished by simply talking past this discrepancy. I suspect this is a big part of people's objection: being told how to speak. Being told that a word means something else now, and if you don't fall in, you're a bigot.
But moving past the rhetoric, the heart of the matter is what we do when someone says they feel one way, but objective reality says they're not that way. Obviously, you've decided that in the case of gender, feeling trumps reality. So the obvious question is: why? And if feeling trumps reality in this situation, why not others?
The Rodent
06-02-15, 10:56 AM
I think what Sean is saying is the same as me... in that Jenner, and all transgender people are lying to themselves... if you go back to what I said about biology.
People, especially famous people when it comes to plastic surgery changing sex, having hair implants and all that, they're lying to themselves... and it's seen as normal, even applauded and revered. That's the true sad state of society.
To Yoda's very good questions I will add.
What does Jenner being true to himself look like? Because from where I have been sitting it looks like outside appearence has an awful lot to do with that. So my statement about being comfortable in your own skin stands for now.
I will also reiterate my question from above. What do you think brought about this great desire to change gender?
Iroquois
06-02-15, 11:02 AM
What do you think led to this? Because to me it is an indictment on the social gender stereotypes that we pretend to decry.
Am I to understand that you're trying to blame society for your refusal to acknowledge Jenner's gender identity?
I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality, transgender or whatever... my Sister was the first gay marriage in Britain.
If either of my kids turn round one day and say they want to change sex, I'm cool with it.
If you're Male, but want to be known as a Female and wants the law and society to treat you as a Female, fine, good, go for it...
But I'll say the same to anyone as I said on here today... your are Female at birth, you're Female for life... the same for Males.
No amount of hormone tablets and plastic surgery to remove certain, erm, appendages, is going to change that.
Your DNA, your bone structure, the very genetic makeup of your body is set when you were still in the womb and cannot be reversed or changed.
Yeah, that's why there's a difference between your assigned gender (which is what you're given at birth) and your gender identity. That was never in question. While Jenner may have been assigned a male at birth, the fact that she does not consider herself male now is what's important.
What were those parents thinking? Clearly he was Caitlyn all the time, how dare they name him Bruce.
He didn't have a problem being Bruce for 65 years of his life. I don't think when he was 20 he was saying to himself "I wish I wasn't Bruce". I think this is something that has transpired over the past 15 or so years, not 65.
If the interviews she's given are any indication, this is a problem she's been dealing with in private for years. Besides, the length of time itself is more or less irrelevant. A person wants to change genders? So be it.
I think what Sean is saying is the same as me... in that Jenner, and all transgender people are lying to themselves... if you go back to what I said about biology.
People, especially famous people when it comes to plastic surgery changing sex, having hair implants and all that, they're lying to themselves... and it's seen as normal, even applauded and revered. That's the true sad state of society.
The problem some people have is, the life they were given, in this case Bruce being born a man, feels like the lie. Bruce felt like he was living a lie for the past however many years, and decided that in order to truly feel like himself, he needed to change. Not saying I agree or disagree, it's a personal choice. It's not my place to tell anyone how to feel or how to be happy, I'll leave that to Dr. Phil
Am I to understand that you're trying to blame society for your refusal to acknowledge Jenner's gender identity?
I'll let him answer for himself, but he might be referring to the tension between support for transgenderism and the decrying of gender roles (which I feel pretty confident in saying you're not a fan of). These two ideas really don't fit together, despite the fact that anyone who holds one view pretty much invariably holds the other.
Example: it's one thing to say "I want to wear dresses now because I like dresses." That's a simple statement with no inherent connotations attached. But if you say "I want to wear dresses because I feel like a woman and that's what women wear," you're reinforcing traditional gender roles. You're saying overtly feminine things are for women, and that they can't feel like a woman unless they have those accouterments.
Iroquois
06-02-15, 11:33 AM
All this really means is that you define the word "woman" to mean "anyone who says they feel like a woman," right? To other people, that word is based in biology, and not much is accomplished by simply talking past this discrepancy. I suspect this is a big part of people's objection: being told how to speak. Being told that a word means something else now, and if you don't fall in, you're a bigot.
But moving past the rhetoric, the heart of the matter is what we do when someone says they feel one way, but objective reality says they're not that way. Obviously, you've decided that in the case of gender, feeling trumps reality. So the obvious question is: why? And if feeling trumps reality in this situation, why not others?
You're right, I did not explain myself. In the previous post I made, I brought up the discrepancy between assigned (birth) genders and gender identities. Caitlyn Jenner was assigned male at birth, but now identifies as female. That trumps the concept of objective reality since a person's basic physiology is not an automatic indicator of their gender identity. Identity as a fundamental concept is defined more by one's mind than by one's body anyway, so it's more than just a feeling. Some parts of your identity you can work to change, while others are basic parts of who you are as a human being and thus it really is simpler to just acknowledge them.
I think what Sean is saying is the same as me... in that Jenner, and all transgender people are lying to themselves... if you go back to what I said about biology.
People, especially famous people when it comes to plastic surgery changing sex, having hair implants and all that, they're lying to themselves... and it's seen as normal, even applauded and revered. That's the true sad state of society.
See my last response to you re: assigned genders.
As far as the sad state of society goes, I do think it's a problem that there's this really narrow and unrealistic set of physical standards that people are pressured to conform to in order to be considered attractive or worthy of attention (especially when they involve women in general, who definitely get the short end of the stick in this regard). Of course, assuming that literally every single person undergoes cosmetic surgery is "lying to themselves" is a bit much - it's really just another form of self-improvement that isn't much different from working out. Yeah, it's extreme and superficial, but if that's what the person sincerely wants, then can it really be called "lying"? We can't judge everyone.
To Yoda's very good questions I will add.
What does Jenner being true to himself look like? Because from where I have been sitting it looks like outside appearence has an awful lot to do with that. So my statement about being comfortable in your own skin stands for now.
I will also reiterate my question from above. What do you think brought about this great desire to change gender?
Source: (http://mic.com/articles/119828/caitlyn-jenner-formerly-known-as-bruce-finally-reveals-herself-in-a-stunning-photo)
This is the first time Jenner is using her chosen female name and feminine gender pronouns. In the piece, she shares her reasoning behind coming out. "If I was lying on my deathbed and I had kept this secret and never ever did anything about it, I would be lying there saying, 'You just blew your entire life,'" Jenner said.
That doesn't sound like the whim of some B-list celebrity deliberately trying to make a tabloid headline. That sounds like someone who's weighed their options and the consequences and decided that this is the right thing for them to do.
What do you think led to this? Because to me it is an indictment on the social gender stereotypes that we pretend to decry.
Am I to understand that you're trying to blame society for your refusal to acknowledge Jenner's gender identity?
Yeah, that's why there's a difference between your assigned gender (which is what you're given at birth) and your gender identity. That was never in question. While Jenner may have been assigned a male at birth, the fact that she does not consider herself male now is what's important.
I think "society norms" have a huge impact on who we become. I think it has an enormous impact on people with gender identity issues. In fact I can't ask you a single question about why Jenner feels this way that wouldn't reinforce social gender sterotypes. Maybe you can show me some examples that wouldn't.
In response to your last statement, I think the important question is why she does not consider herself male now?
Iroquois
06-02-15, 11:56 AM
I'll let him answer for himself, but he might be referring to the tension between support for transgenderism and the decrying of gender roles (which I feel pretty confident in saying you're not a fan of). These two ideas really don't fit together, despite the fact that anyone who holds one view pretty much invariably holds the other.
Example: it's one thing to say "I want to wear dresses now because I like dresses." That's a simple statement with no inherent connotations attached. But if you say "I want to wear dresses because I feel like a woman and that's what women wear," you're reinforcing traditional gender roles. You're saying overtly feminine things are for women, and that they can't feel like a woman unless they have those accouterments.
I'll grant that. A transgender woman is under no obligation to conform to explicitly feminine gender roles in terms of conduct - it's not like reassignment surgery or hormone replacement are 100% mandatory either.
I think "society norms" have a huge impact on who we become. I think it has an enormous impact on people with gender identity issues. In fact I can't ask you a single question about why Jenner feels this way that wouldn't reinforce social gender sterotypes. Maybe you can show me some examples that wouldn't.
In response to your last statement, I think the important question is why she does not consider herself male now?
Well, you might as well ask them - all I can do is answer them.
As for that last question - that's just how she is? I can't be specific as to whether or not there are extenuating circumstances that led to this development, not without doing some research. I'll get back to you on that.
You're right, I did not explain myself. In the previous post I made, I brought up the discrepancy between assigned (birth) genders and gender identities. Caitlyn Jenner was assigned male at birth, but now identifies as female.
I don't wanna get too off track from the core questions, but I think the debate would be substantially improved by disposing of the obvious misnomer "assigned gender." This implies an element of whim or discretion which simply isn't there. Biological gender (until recently known as "gender") is not assigned at birth, it's identified. And this is clearly true even if you make a distinction between biological gender and gender identity. "Assigned" smuggles rhetoric and implication into what really ought to be a neutral, descriptive term.
That trumps the concept of objective reality since a person's basic physiology is not an automatic indicator of their gender identity.
I'm not sure how this answers anything. The question was why gender identity takes precedence over physiology, and you're simply saying it's because they don't match. Obviously they don't always match--that's why we're able to ask which takes precedence in the first place.
There's also the related question: why draw the line here? There's a condition known as Body integrity identity disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder), where people become convinced that one of their limbs is not really their own and doesn't belong on them. It is (rightly, to my mind) regarded as a mental illness. Nobody thinks it's a good idea for them to cut their own arms off and nobody thinks they're brave for admitting they want to.
You can probably guess my question: should this be classified as a mental illness? If so, why is it healthy to cut off some body parts, but not others, and who gets to decide which is healthy and which isn't?
I'll let him answer for himself, but he might be referring to the tension between support for transgenderism and the decrying of gender roles (which I feel pretty confident in saying you're not a fan of). These two ideas really don't fit together, despite the fact that anyone who holds one view pretty much invariably holds the other.
Example: it's one thing to say "I want to wear dresses now because I like dresses." That's a simple statement with no inherent connotations attached. But if you say "I want to wear dresses because I feel like a woman and that's what women wear," you're reinforcing traditional gender roles. You're saying overtly feminine things are for women, and that they can't feel like a woman unless they have those accouterments.
I'll grant that. A transgender woman is under no obligation to conform to explicitly feminine gender roles in terms of conduct - it's not like reassignment surgery or hormone replacement are 100% mandatory either.
I think "society norms" have a huge impact on who we become. I think it has an enormous impact on people with gender identity issues. In fact I can't ask you a single question about why Jenner feels this way that wouldn't reinforce social gender sterotypes. Maybe you can show me some examples that wouldn't.
In response to your last statement, I think the important question is why she does not consider herself male now?
Well, you might as well ask them - all I can do is answer them.
As for that last question - that's just how she is? I can't be specific as to whether or not there are extenuating circumstances that led to this development, not without doing some research. I'll get back to you on that.
Is it about looks, is it about sex, is it about a maternal instinct, is it about empowerment? All these questions lead me to the extenuating circumstances. I really do want to hear how you end up feeling about this. To me it cuts to the heart of it. I hope we can both be open to a different POV.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 12:35 PM
I'll say this first, so you all know what my point of view on this matter is before reading my post:
I'm completely in favor of surgical sex changes for people who have a genuine gender identity crisis (or what I think that means).
I'll respond to this little fragment first, because it's a good start to explain my way of thinking about the subject of transgenderism:
But moving past the rhetoric, the heart of the matter is what we do when someone says they feel one way, but objective reality says they're not that way. Obviously, you've decided that in the case of gender, feeling trumps reality. So the obvious question is: why? And if feeling trumps reality in this situation, why not others?
I think the heart of the matter could also be described as a confrontation between two realities: physical reality versus psychological reality.
Psychological reality can also be seen as part of the physical reality (or biological reality or whatever you want to call it) of course when you want to study it neurologically, but let's make a clear distinction to make the argument easier.
The important difference here is that I'm assuming that what Yoda describes as "feeling" is part of reality.
I'll give a short philosophical (fictional) hypothesis and I'll try to let you all understand my point of view a little better.
Let's first assume that we live in a world where complete biological gender change is possible. XY-chromosomes can be converted to XX-chromosomes and vice-versa. Then, let's assume that you (whoever reads this) are kidnapped and are forced to go through such a gender change operation. Your psychological reality is still the same, but your complete physical (biological) reality now demonstrates that your gender is the opposite of the one you were originally. It's a disturbing thought that kind of resembles what (I think) people with a gender identity crisis are going through.
You could still argue that the memory of being the other gender makes it more disturbing and "real", but let's say it would've been done right after you're born (you don't have any memory of it). Your psychological gender identity would still be the one of your original gender, while your physical identity would be the one of the gender you've been physically changed to. You would be prisoned in a body that doesn't "fit" your mind.
In that case, I think it's perfectly reasonable to argue that people who truly have this kind of identity crisis should be able to take measures to change their physical reality according to their psychological reality (or at least make it resemble how they "feel" they are).
Now, I know some people will protest againt what I think (according to what I've read about the subject) "transgenderism" actually is or means and I'm perfectly willing to have that discussion as well, but let me ask you all this question first:
If being a transgender would truly resemble the horrific psychological identity crisis that I explained in my hypothesis, would you still have problems with people changing their "sex" (or physical resemblance of one) through surgery?
I'm basing this hypothesis on a film by Pedro Almodovar (the people who have seen it will know which film I'm talking about), which made me look at gender and identity in a refreshingly different way than I did before. I can't say the name of the film, because it's actually kind of a spoiler, but I just wanted to let you all know where I got the "idea" from.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 12:40 PM
I don't think any of us have a problem with it. We are just stating that an honest change of someone going from "Bruce to Caitlyn" is merely a psychological change and can in no way be physically (as in genetically) (and to a higher degree technically) possible.
Iroquois
06-02-15, 12:47 PM
I don't wanna get too off track from the core questions, but I think the debate would be substantially improved by disposing of the obvious misnomer "assigned gender." This implies an element of whim or discretion which simply isn't there. Biological gender (until recently known as "gender") is not assigned at birth, it's identified. And this is clearly true even if you make a distinction between biological gender and gender identity. "Assigned" smuggles rhetoric and implication into what really ought to be a neutral, descriptive term.
I think the reason "assigned" became the preferred term over "identified" is because not only is it a bit unwieldy when you have to alternate between identified gender and gender identity as part of the discourse but also because a gender is assigned to a newborn after it has been identified. Not sure where the "whim" or "discretion" or "smuggled rhetoric" enter into it.
I'm not sure how this answers anything. The question was why gender identity takes precedence over physiology, and you're simply saying it's because they don't match. Obviously they don't always match--that's why we're able to ask which takes precedence in the first place.
I think, therefore I am.
There's also the related question: why draw the line here? There's a condition known as Body integrity identity disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder), where people become convinced that one of their limbs is not really their own and doesn't belong on them. It is (rightly, to my mind) regarded as a mental illness. Nobody thinks it's a good idea for them to cut their own arms off and nobody thinks they're brave for admitting they want to.
You can probably guess my question: should this be classified as a mental illness? If so, why is it healthy to cut off some body parts, but not others, and who gets to decide which is healthy and which isn't?
Doctors.
But seriously, that's kind of why there's all this psychiatry involved when it comes to undergoing full gender reassignment - to make absolutely sure that having the surgery is a conscious choice by a sound mind in pursuit of a clearly defined goal to help achieve physical and mental well-being and that there aren't any actual mental illnesses that could complicate matters. Not sure if cisgender people undergoing elective cosmetic surgery get similar treatment, but that's a debate for another time. So while it is a fundamentally mental issue, I don't think it qualifies as a full-blown illness, especially not on part with body integrity identity disorder.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 12:56 PM
I don't think any of us have a problem with it. We are just stating that an honest change of someone going from "Bruce to Caitlyn" is merely a psychological change and can in no way be physically (as in genetically) (and to a higher degree technically) possible.
I wouldn't say it's a psychological change. It's a physical change to allow someone to be perceived as who they "feel" they are.
The fact that you insisted in an earlier post that he/she (I'm not going to play the pronoun game here, but I would call her a "she") "still is Bruce Jenner" (what's in a name, right?) makes it seem that you do have a problem with that, by the way. ;)
Frightened Inmate No. 2
06-02-15, 12:58 PM
well yeah she still has an XY chromosome, so from a biological standpoint she could be considered male, but does that really matter? i didn't realize we were such a chromosome-based society where that's all that matters when identifying gender. i don't think anyone here truly understands what caitlyn is going through, all we know is that she clearly feels 100% female, so why can't we respect that and call her by the right freaking pronoun at least? do you have a stronger allegiance to human biology than to human decency?
well yeah she still has an XY chromosome, so from a biological standpoint she could be considered male, but does that really matter? i didn't realize we were such a chromosome-based society where that's all that matters when identifying gender. i don't think anyone here truly understands what caitlyn is going through, all we know is that she clearly feels 100% female, so why can't we respect that and call her by the right freaking pronoun at least? do you have a stronger allegiance to human biology than to human decency?
I can appreciate where you are coming from here Inmate. I had a conversation in a PM earlier about this. With an extreme topic like this we end up talking around the actual person and concentrating on the larger issue. It is unfortunate that is how these conversations get started but I don't think that makes the large issue irrelevant.
@Cob I am not ignoring your hypothetical but I am taking a moment to ponder how to answer properly. I think we miss the heart of a matter when we use extreme hypotheticals to prove a slippery slope.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 01:16 PM
@Cob I am not ignoring your hypothetical but I am taking a moment to ponder how to answer properly. I think we miss the heart of a matter when we use extreme hypotheticals to prove a slippery slope.
The hypothesis is in no way intended to be the proof of anything. I used it as a medium to make people understand my view on what a gender identity crisis could be (or according to me actually is). I just wanted to know what people's stances on the issue would be if they considered that view as truth.
I explicitly said that I was willing to have the other discussion about "what's actually true" as well. ;)
My question is... If I take a hamburger patty and put it in a hot dog bun, is it now a hot dog? This isn't relevant to the topic at hand, I'm just thinking about life at the Sonic Drive-in.
christine
06-02-15, 01:29 PM
Like Rodent I didn't know who Bruce Jenner was but just read up a bit . I see people moaning on t'internet about how much she's spent on her appearance, but that's beside the point. We need people like her to raise the profile of transgendered people.
I remember when being gay was something to be whispered about and condemned. People lived whole lives in the past knowing they were gay and not being able to tell anyone or if they did risk facing criminal charges, and people still do around the world. If it wasn't for gay rights and prominent people declaring themselves to be gay we wouldn't live in this society where it's ok and most people aren't really that bothered. Give it another 20 years or so and it won't even be an issue at all with anyone.
I'm not connecting being gay with being transgendered by the way, just trying to illustrate that society comes to accept differences only when they're out in the open and nowadays one of the best ways of doing that is through the media. People going through similar issues can get comfort knowing that another can come through their problems even though Caitlyn has piles of money to make herself look a million dollars.
I think the reason "assigned" became the preferred term over "identified" is because not only is it a bit unwieldy when you have to alternate between identified gender and gender identity as part of the discourse but also because a gender is assigned to a newborn after it has been identified. Not sure where the "whim" or "discretion" or "smuggled rhetoric" enter into it.
Virtually every other use of the word "assign" (that I can think of, at least) exists in circumstances where the assignment is at someone's discretion. Nobody says you were "assigned" a height, or a hair color, or a specific set of parents.
I think, therefore I am.
And if someone were questioning whether Jenner existed, this would be a fine response. The quote isn't "I think I am something, therefore I am that thing."
So the question remains: when and why does one take priority? I assume you would not call anyone anything they asked you to call them, or at least you would not say they are that thing simply because they said they were. So why is this situation different? I think this is a pretty fair, pretty simple question.
Doctors.
But seriously, that's kind of why there's all this psychiatry involved when it comes to undergoing full gender reassignment - to make absolutely sure that having the surgery is a conscious choice by a sound mind in pursuit of a clearly defined goal to help achieve physical and mental well-being and that there aren't any actual mental illnesses that could complicate matters.
Isn't this circular, too? You say we can tell with psychiatric evaluation, but the mere fact of undergoing the evaluations presupposes that it can be reasonable to want this, which is the entire thing being questioned in the first place.
Not sure if cisgender people undergoing elective cosmetic surgery get similar treatment, but that's a debate for another time.
Probably not. But then, most cosmetic surgery is far more superficial and reversible. And I've never heard of someone being called a bigot for disapproving of breast implants. But since you brought it up: why not? If (not if, it's actually happened) someone says they're supposed to look like a plastic Barbie doll, can someone reasonably disapprove of the fact? Do you think people having negative opinions of plastic surgery indicates bigotry?
So while it is a fundamentally mental issue, I don't think it qualifies as a full-blown illness, especially not on part with body integrity identity disorder.
Okay, but the question was: why is one an illness, and not the other? Can you give me a simple rule applicable to human psychology that includes transgenderism but precludes body integrity identity disorder?
well yeah she still has an XY chromosome, so from a biological standpoint she could be considered male, but does that really matter? i didn't realize we were such a chromosome-based society where that's all that matters when identifying gender. i don't think anyone here truly understands what caitlyn is going through, all we know is that she clearly feels 100% female, so why can't we respect that and call her by the right freaking pronoun at least? do you have a stronger allegiance to human biology than to human decency?
Of course, if this is an actual mental illness, then what you call "human decency" is just enabling. I know, I know, you don't think it is a mental illness--but that's the disagreement you have to grapple with. Not the psychologically comfortable fiction that people who disagree with you must lack decency.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 01:33 PM
Here's that transgender thread I knew was coming.
Monkeypunch
06-02-15, 01:34 PM
You know, the only thing that really bothers me about all this is that it reeks of a giant publicity grab. A lot of people transition, but they don't announce it to the heavens like "hey, pay attention to ME now!" I suppose that yeah, it being Bruce Jenner, the media was going to get involved, but it seems to me like she is turning this into yet another attempt to stay in the spotlight instead of the deeply personal matter it definitely is. If there's suddenly a reality show on cable TV, I'm going to be severely disappointed. "Coming out Caitlyn" is next, followed by "Paris Hilton's Celebrity Slut Kitchen" Only on E!
Ok, maybe I'd watch Celebrity Slut Kitchen just once. :D
Frightened Inmate No. 2
06-02-15, 01:45 PM
You know, the only thing that really bothers me about all this is that it reeks of a giant publicity grab. A lot of people transition, but they don't announce it to the heavens like "hey, pay attention to ME now!" I suppose that yeah, it being Bruce Jenner, the media was going to get involved, but it seems to me like she is turning this into yet another attempt to stay in the spotlight instead of the deeply personal matter it definitely is. If there's suddenly a reality show on cable TV, I'm going to be severely disappointed. "Coming out Caitlyn" is next, followed by "Paris Hilton's Celebrity Slut Kitchen" Only on E!
Ok, maybe I'd watch Celebrity Slut Kitchen just once. :D
except what caitlyn is doing is genuinely beneficial to the transgender community, who have never had anywhere close to this level of exposure before and the generally positive reactions caitlyn has gotten will undoubtedly give countless gender confused people the confidence to do what they need to do to feel comfortable in their bodies. whatever her intentions were, i'm glad this has gotten the attention it has. also just the fact that this is so unusual to a lot of people means it was inevitable that this would get a lot of media attention
Are we ever as a culture going to agree that there is a distinction to be made accepting someone as a person and accepting aspects of them that we disagree with, inate or otherwise.
There all kinds of people in my life, including here, who disagree with certain aspects of me as a person. Some of those things are inate, some are not. I don't take that as a condemnation of me as a person.
I think as adults we should be able to have adult conversations without always walking on egg shells.
jiraffejustin
06-02-15, 02:06 PM
So much racism in one thread, I can't believe it.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 02:08 PM
My thing is I don't believe that transgenderism is a birth defect. I don't think there's been any solid proof that it is, yet there's this whole agenda that's trying to push that issue as if it's truth. As if people who feel they're the wrong sex need to transition into the correct body, even if they're very young children. That is my problem with the whole thing. I see this whole Bruce Jenner thing, as well as when Chastity Bono went through the transition, as just more fuel that's trying to push this issue and make it seem legit.
I'm not convinced. I don't think the science is really there to prove it yet and based on my experiences with transgendered people, I'm not convinced it's real. I am open to the idea that it's real, but I'm very skeptical.
There might be some genuine cases where the body has truly affected the mind in a way to believe it's the wrong sex, but I worry that so many people have simply convinced themselves, for some reason, that they're the wrong sex, when it's just not true.
We don't pick the bodies we're given... but we could choose to act either male or female. We might be more drawn to the lifestyle of the opposite sex that we are... but I'm not convinced this means there's a physical problem that is the cause. I think it's probably all a psychological thing. Frankly, I think the mind and psychology haven't been fully mapped out and studied and I think most, if not all, transgendered people, have convinced themselves that they're the wrong sex and cannot easily mentally make the switch that they're fine. That they don't need to have surgery and all that.
If people want to have a sex change, I think that should be their right. But I think it's an elective surgery. Until there has been groundbreaking, solid proof that transgenderism is this real thing, I'm not for it as being something that should be offered to be paid for easily as a life threatening emergency surgery -- all thanks to hysterical stories about the many supposed suicides of transgendered people, who may have other life issues causing their problems, such as society disapproving of their actions.
I hate that transgendered people even get linked with gay people, although I can understand why. But now I really hate it because the transgender movement has really progressed and frankly -- I'm not one of those people. Even if being transgendered turns out to be a biological problem, I hate how transgendered people get grouped with us -- LGBT -- because there's a difference between being attracted to your own sex, and being a person who believes they're in the wrong body. I hate the term "LGBT" now -- and all the other crazy additions it's recently acquired that I don't even know all the names for.
I used to be all for transgender issues in the past, but now... I'm skeptical. And before, I used to just kinda accept every single form of propaganda the "LGBT" community would shove down our throats -- which I think they are still shoving down the throats of the masses -- but not anymore. I think more for myself now and I think the transgender movement is probably wrong.
Monkeypunch
06-02-15, 02:25 PM
So much racism in one thread, I can't believe it.
Racism? In what way?
So much racism in one thread, I can't believe it.
That really doesn't seem to be as main stream as you and slob think. :)
Citizen Rules
06-02-15, 03:15 PM
I just skimmed this thread. I seen some accusations of 'bigotry' and 'haters' and that bothers me. I didn't read one post that was hateful against Jenner. If Jenner wants to do this, that's Jenner's business and I wish Caitlyn well.
However if we as much as raise an eyebrow at this unusual news story, the 'PC police' start labeling us as politically incorrect, or worse, we're called haters or bigots.
It's normal for people to have different reactions to Jenner's operation and the day we all have to give cookie cutter responses or risk offending someone, is the day we lose freedom of speech.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 04:04 PM
I just skimmed this thread. I seen some accusations of 'bigotry' and 'haters' and that bothers me. I didn't read one post that was hateful against Jenner. If Jenner wants to do this, that's Jenner's business and I wish Caitlyn well.
However if we as much as raise an eyebrow at this unusual news story, the 'PC police' start labeling us as politically incorrect, or worse, we're called haters or bigots.
It's normal for people to have different reactions to Jenner's operation and the day we all have to give cookie cutter responses or risk offending someone, is the day we lose freedom of speech.
First of all, Hello 90sAce.
Second, I hate when they're all too quick to label people as "transphobic." I'm sure I would be called transphobic for my views, even though I'm not scared of transgendered people at all. I even like stuff dealing with transgendered people -- The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert has a transgendered person and she's my favorite character in it.
The Gunslinger45
06-02-15, 05:54 PM
I'm just going to say I am sick of hearing about Bruce, Caitlyn or who ever. Not because of the trans thing, but because of his connection to the Kardashins.
Frightened Inmate No. 2
06-02-15, 06:10 PM
It is slightly better than I expected. The split between the positive reactions and the negative ones is fairly even, which obviously could be better but also could have been worse.
you spoke too soon
edit gah i posted something wrong here
We live in a society of instant self-gratification and contradictions.
This sort of transformation is ANYTHING but instant self-gratification. It is a long, arduous process wrought with emotional challenges.
I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality, transgender or whatever... my Sister was the first gay marriage in Britain.
If either of my kids turn round one day and say they want to change sex, I'm cool with it.
If you're Male, but want to be known as a Female and wants the law and society to treat you as a Female, fine, good, go for it...
But I'll say the same to anyone as I said on here today... your are Female at birth, you're Female for life... the same for Males.
No amount of hormone tablets and plastic surgery to remove certain, erm, appendages, is going to change that.
Your DNA, your bone structure, the very genetic makeup of your body is set when you were still in the womb and cannot be reversed or changed.
You're confusing gender and sex.
It is true that your sex will never change. XY will always be XY.
What you're missing however is that gender is cultural construct. There is nothing in XX chromosomes that says you're supposed to wear makeup and skirts and high heels. All of these these things were imagined and created.
She has changed her gender. She is now a she. Not a he or an it.
Yes her sex is still XY, but that doesn't mean we should all be pricks about it. Life is already hard enough for transgender people.
What you're missing however is that gender is cultural construct. There is nothing in XX chromosomes that says you're supposed to wear makeup and skirts and high heels. All of these these things were imagined and created.
Now people are just proving my point for me yet somehow I am still a prick.
Now people are just proving my point for me yet somehow I am still a prick.
It's disrespectful to say things like he's still bruce jenner and refer to him as a he. Not sure if that was you or someone else - I'm not making a list of names here. but I've seen it happen in the thread.
So the question remains: when and why does one take priority? I assume you would not call anyone anything they asked you to call them, or at least you would not say they are that thing simply because they said they were. So why is this situation different? I think this is a pretty fair, pretty simple question.
If bruce jenner looked, dressed, and acted exactly the same way but insisted on being called female it would be very confusing to me.
I think this is about more than what someone says they are. At the very least it's also about how they present themselves and behave.
Have you heard the saying .. if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - it's a duck. That saying has nothing to do with the duck claiming to be one or not.
So the question remains: when and why does one take priority? I assume you would not call anyone anything they asked you to call them, or at least you would not say they are that thing simply because they said they were. So why is this situation different? I think this is a pretty fair, pretty simple question.
If bruce jenner looked, dressed, and acted exactly the same way but insisted on being called female it would be very confusing to me.
I think this is about more than what someone says they are. At the very least it's also about how they present themselves and behave.
Why would it be confusing? Is now that he is a she, is she fundamentally different person? You are putting all of the emphasis on how she looks now. If this is the main focus of people who change genders, what is it that you think drives that?
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 07:00 PM
It's disrespectful to say things like he's still bruce jenner and refer to him as a he.
It might be disrespectful to Bruce Jenner (and BTW, aren't you supposed to be calling him Caitlyn??) --- but they have every right to do that.
Dorothy Michaels
06-02-15, 07:04 PM
People should be referring to ME as DOROTHY MICHAELS, instead of always saying I'm Sexy Celebrity, you macho sh!theads!
Derek Vinyard
06-02-15, 07:07 PM
not disrespect or nothing... I just put my opinion on the line if you find that disrespectful just delete it Yoda...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGg7RGhUIAAJlfE.jpg:large
You are putting all of the emphasis on how she looks now.
Am I? I thought I had put emphasis on how she acted too.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 07:11 PM
The big question should be... if Bruce has "always been Caitlyn"... that means a woman competed in those Men's races.
Should be stripped of those medals if I'm completely honest.
If they wanna be completely fair and go all the way with this transgender thing, I think you have a point. If they really wanna claim that he was always a female, even back then, they might as well do that.
It might be disrespectful to Bruce Jenner (and BTW, aren't you supposed to be calling him Caitlyn??) --- but they have every right to do that.
It's BTW aren't you supposed to be calling HER Caitlyn :p
And yes, I will. but I will still refer to bruce jenner when talking hypotheticals about the past, because in that time she was still bruce.
Anyway I'm not the PC police. I think people are unfamiliar with social interactions with the transgendered and mistakes and slip ups happen, who cares. I know I'm not perfect!!
But when people do it intentionally they are being disrespectful - and yes they have every right to bee disrespectful but that also makes them a prick IMO.
If they wanna be completely fair and go all the way with this transgender thing, I think you have a point. If they really wanna claim that he was always a female, even back then, they might as well do that.
Back then she only felt female. It's just recently that she has become female. and yeah there is a difference. a female athlete should not be able to take testosterone etc and compete against other females.
It's only after she starts taking hormones that you need to consider if athletic performance is an issue.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 07:15 PM
Why would it be confusing? Is now that he is a she, is she fundamentally different person?
No. Now she's someone who identifies as a woman in (what closely resembles) a woman's body, instead of in a man's body. The person doesn't truly change. The body does.
You are putting all of the emphasis on how she looks now. If this is the main focus of people who change genders, what is it that you think drives that?
You're probably trying to say here that society kind of forces transgenders into actually physically changing genders, because of gender stereotypes, etc. and because that's the only way they can truly act as a woman in public (please, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like that's the point you're trying to make), but what if they simply can't be comfortable and happy because the male or female body they have doesn't fit with how they "feel" and the gender they ultimately identify themselves with?
This brings me back to the hypothetical question I was asking on the earlier page, by the way. ;)
I know, I know, you don't think it is a mental illness--but that's the disagreement you have to grapple with.
What are you referring to may I ask? Do you think the former Bruce Jenner has a 'mental illness' because the person now is referred to Caitlyn Jenner and is wanting to be a she? Then you must think that a person who is a homosexual or any other people of the LGBT community....has a 'mental illness'. That is just sad.
If I'm wrong than I apologize. If I'm not then I feel sorry for you.
homosexuality used to be classified as a mental illness.
I could easily see transgender stuff being a mental illness, maybe I wouldn't even argue with it. There are people in prison that have killed or attempted to kill themselves because they didn't have access to gender reassignment surgery. That certainly sounds like a mental illness to me.
but who knows. maybe a dwarf has killed themselves because they're a dwarf and they wanted to be normal. it's a minefield trying to define this stuff.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 07:21 PM
But when people do it intentionally they are being disrespectful - and yes they have every right to bee disrespectful but that also makes them a prick IMO.
Maybe - but there's people who don't agree with it.
I don't mind referring to CAITLYN as "she." I can be respectful to transgendered people, no matter how true or false it is that they're the sex they claim to be. If that's the way they wanna live, that's how they wanna live. But to me, they're always gonna be transgendered people. I'd have a hard time thinking of them as a total, real female, or male if they switched to male. Largely because I'm not convinced these are people born in the wrong bodies. I used to believe that, but as I said, now I'm skeptical.
I don't even think all transgendered people even believe they were simply born in the wrong body. I think there are some cases where ... they just wanted to change their sex. They just wanted to do it. And I've even heard of trans people who regretted it after doing it.
Frightened Inmate No. 2
06-02-15, 07:23 PM
It might be disrespectful to Bruce Jenner (and BTW, aren't you supposed to be calling him Caitlyn??) --- but they have every right to do that.
yes, but nobody has ever said that they don't have the right to call her anything they want, but it's incredibly disrespectful, and they have to be prepared to get called out on it and not start whining when they're called out on it. it's also the internet and maybe people should just get thicker skin?
The first time I went out in public as a female I had people literally yell at me that I was disgusting. I think other girls were the worst but some guys were pretty offensive too. I'm lucky that I don't actually identify as a female so I didn't take any of their insults to heart.
But yeah these same hateful people also called me 'dude' and stuff in their attempts to inflict distress.
Mr Minio
06-02-15, 07:26 PM
You're lucky nobody beat you up.
not disrespect or nothing... I just put my opinion on the line if you find that disrespectful just delete it Yoda...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGg7RGhUIAAJlfE.jpg:large
Sounds more appropriate for a "Total Badass" award to me. :eek:
Edit: That image is wrong. (http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/02/caitlyn-jenner-arthur-ashe-espys/) :/
I don't even think all transgendered people even believe they were simply born in the wrong body. I think there are some cases where ... they just wanted to change their sex. They just wanted to do it. And I've even heard of trans people who regretted it after doing it.
I used to be part of a message board that had cross dressers and transgender both. They each had their own little section :p
And yeah sometimes people would start out as cross dressers and then like a gateway drug after a few years they would move to full transgender :lol:
Then there are people who dress up as a sexual fetish, etc. Really it's quite diverse as people can be, and there are probably cases of anything you could imagine.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 07:30 PM
homosexuality used to be classified as a mental illness.
I could easily see transgender stuff being a mental illness, maybe I wouldn't even argue with it. There are people in prison that have killed or attempted to kill themselves because they didn't have access to gender reassignment surgery. That certainly sounds like a mental illness to me.
Well, that's a bold statement, because from what I always hear, people are always crying about how -- "OH! These people are gay! These people are transgendered! And they're killing themselves! SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE! Gay and transgender rights now! STOP THE SUICIDES!"
Don't often hear people say they're suicidal because there's something else wrong with them. I have made that statement before, though.
but who knows. maybe a dwarf has killed themselves because they're a dwarf and they wanted to be normal. it's a minefield trying to define this stuff.Some people are lucky and live in situations where they can live happy as a dwarf or a gay person or a transgendered person. Some other people... may not be so lucky. Or they're just not strong enough, mentally, to endure.
I remember there was a story years ago about a college student who was gay -- and his roommate filmed the gay guy and another guy having sex, and then showed it to a bunch of people at the college. The gay guy was so distraught about it that he killed himself. All I could think about was that there must have been something else wrong with this guy for killing himself. His homosexuality and homophobic people were ultimately not the whole problem -- this guy had problems if he thought the only thing he could do was commit suicide. I said this to people and they were like, "YOU'RE HORRIBLE FOR THINKING THAT!" But it's true -- suicide is for the weak. There's something else wrong if you kill yourself because you can't face up to your reality.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 07:32 PM
yes, but nobody has ever said that they don't have the right to call her anything they want, but it's incredibly disrespectful, and they have to be prepared to get called out on it and not start whining when they're called out on it. it's also the internet and maybe people should just get thicker skin?
You can certainly call people out on it, if that's your belief.
You're lucky nobody beat you up.
I've been hit in the face before by a guy but I wouldn't say I was beat up. But yeah I've been pretty nervous before in public.. one time I went out to a club in a revealing sexy outfit and so I wore a trench coat over it before I got inside :lol: I was really happy that I got a close parking spot and didn't have to walk by myself on the streets.
It's amazing how a few experiences can really change your perspective on what life is like for other people.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 07:35 PM
The first time I went out in public as a female I had people literally yell at me that I was disgusting. I think other girls were the worst but some guys were pretty offensive too. I'm lucky that I don't actually identify as a female so I didn't take any of their insults to heart.
But yeah these same hateful people also called me 'dude' and stuff in their attempts to inflict distress.
You're a very good looking woman when you're dressed up. I've seen HER. I have seen Miss Thing.
But you are a dude. Being called "dude" doesn't sound so horrible, even if you are dressed as a woman. Sometimes people are just having a little harmless fun.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 07:37 PM
I used to be part of a message board that had cross dressers and transgender both. They each had their own little section :p
And yeah sometimes people would start out as cross dressers and then like a gateway drug after a few years they would move to full transgender :lol:
Then there are people who dress up as a sexual fetish, etc. Really it's quite diverse as people can be, and there are probably cases of anything you could imagine.
There's an OVERWHELMING amount of crossdressers in this world. If you think you don't know a crossdresser, think again, 'cause you might. Lots of people -- lots of men -- love to put on panties and wigs and bras and makeup in private.
Well, that's a bold statement, because from what I always hear, people are always crying about how -- "OH! These people are gay! These people are transgendered! And they're killing themselves! SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE! Gay and transgender rights now! STOP THE SUICIDES!"
Don't often hear people say they're suicidal because there's something else wrong with them. I have made that statement before, though.
Yes but my statement wasn't a blanket one .. it wasn't about people killing themselves because of a lack of rights or because of how others are treating them. But about the specific individuals that kill themselves solely because they're a man and can't become a woman. If that is the reason you're killing yourself then yeah to me it sounds like a mental illness.
Some people are lucky and live in situations where they can live happy as a dwarf or a gay person or a transgendered person. Some other people... may not be so lucky. Or they're just not strong enough, mentally, to endure.
I remember there was a story years ago about a college student who was gay -- and his roommate filmed the gay guy and another guy having sex, and then showed it to a bunch of people at the college. The gay guy was so distraught about it that he killed himself. All I could think about was that there must have been something else wrong with this guy for killing himself. His homosexuality and homophobic people were ultimately not the whole problem -- this guy had problems if he thought the only thing he could do was commit suicide. I said this to people and they were like, "YOU'RE HORRIBLE FOR THINKING THAT!" But it's true -- suicide is for the weak. There's something else wrong if you kill yourself because you can't face up to your reality.
I think I remember hearing that story. It definitely seems weak to kill yourself over something like that. But I don't fault anyone with chronic physical pain for killing themselves. That's not weakness IMO it's a reasonable decision about quality of life.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 07:39 PM
You know, I do kind of agree with Sexy about the suicide bit. Whenever you truly are at a point that you want to kill yourself, I believe there is something terribly "wrong" with you and/or your perception of life.
I'm not negatively judging people who have committed suicide here, by the way. I'm doing the exact opposite.
Then again, I'm a 21 year old who never had any real worries, so what do I know about suicide or the actual reasons behind it, right? ;)
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 07:43 PM
You know, I do kind of agree with Sexy about the suicide bit. Whenever you truly are at a point that you want to kill yourself, I believe there is something terribly "wrong" with you and/or your perception of life.
You're unstable. You need medical help. You need to learn how to deal with your painful emotions and/or get medication to help you.
Someone was telling me that suicidal people aren't weak because suicide is this MAJOR thing to do to yourself. Yes. But I mean you're weak mentally. You're unstable and not right in the head. A person who commits suicide isn't strong enough to endure very painful emotions.
You're a very good looking woman when you're dressed up. I've seen HER. I have seen Miss Thing.
But you are a dude. Being called "dude" doesn't sound so horrible, even if you are dressed as a woman. Sometimes people are just having a little harmless fun.
Thanks :)
Yeah for me I have fun with it. I'll talk like a woman most of the time and I've made jokes out of suddenly talking like a man. But I'm not normal enough to be representative of any group of people :lol:
It's not as bad as calling a black person the n word. I'll agree with you on that. But the intentions are definitely motivated by disrespect, that's all I'm saying.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 07:47 PM
I think I remember hearing that story. It definitely seems weak to kill yourself over something like that. But I don't fault anyone with chronic physical pain for killing themselves. That's not weakness IMO it's a reasonable decision about quality of life.
I agree that very bad off, hopeless, crippled or old people thinking about suicide... I can understand that. But young, healthy people committing suicide.... it's tragic.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 08:01 PM
It's weak in the sense that some people have lots of muscles, and some people are scrawny things that can't lift sh*t.
Those who don't kill themselves have the muscles. Those who do are the scrawny things. The weak ones who can't manage to stay alive.
No. Now she's someone who identifies as a woman in (what closely resembles) a woman's body, instead of in a man's body. The person doesn't truly change. The body does.
Right, and this is part of my point if that was unclear.
You're probably trying to say here that society kind of forces transgenders into actually physically changing genders, because of gender stereotypes, etc. and because that's the only way they can truly act as a woman in public (please, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like that's the point you're trying to make), but what if they simply can't be comfortable and happy because the male or female body they have doesn't fit with how they "feel" and the gender they ultimately identify themselves with?
This brings me back to the hypothetical question I was asking on the earlier page, by the way. ;)
I think that social and gender roles could have a lot to do with this. Obviously it is not the only factor in someone deciding to make such a drastic change. Ultimately I was hoping to talk some about the definition of true happiness. About what our "feeling" a certain way looks like and how we get there. About how much looks plays a part in all this. It is hard to get there though. I think using words like feel and happy have all kinds of implications and I am not sure that all of our decisions should be based on what feels good and what we think happiness looks like. Again all of this does not necessarily end up relating to Jenner specifically. I know I have been talking around her.
I am not sure how to answer your hypothetical honestly. The easy answer is that of course I think that person would be entitled to a reversal, but I know you are looking to dig deeper than that.
Citizen Rules
06-02-15, 09:13 PM
....I think that social and gender roles could have a lot to do with this. Obviously it is not the only factor in someone deciding to make such a drastic change. Ultimately I was hoping to talk some about the definition of true happiness. About what our "feeling" a certain way looks like and how we get there. About how much looks plays a part in all this. It is hard to get there though...
Once I watched a documentary about the nature of sexuality and what makes a person feel or relate to male or female roles. One segment was on transgender people. In the USA a transgender person is made to live as the opposite sex for a year before a doctor will perform the surgery. Some transgender people who don't want to wait go to Asia to have the surgeon done....Their rate of suicide after the operation is much higher than those who have it done in America. That tells me that transgenders can have sex reassignment surgery for many reasons and some of those reasons might not be because their women trapped in mens bodies.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 09:20 PM
I think that social and gender roles could have a lot to do with this. Obviously it is not the only factor in someone deciding to make such a drastic change. Ultimately I was hoping to talk some about the definition of true happiness. About what our "feeling" a certain way looks like and how we get there. About how much looks plays a part in all this. It is hard to get there though. I think using words like feel and happy have all kinds of implications and I am not sure that all of our decisions should be based on what feels good and what we think happiness looks like.
True happiness is the main issue here, I think. There's only one question that should really matter. Do transsexuals actually get happier after they've gone through a (surgical) sex change?
Here's part of an article (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/43084/does-gender-reassignment-surgery-lead-to-happiness/) about the subject that tackles that question with numbers:
"The question is whether reassignment makes transsexuals happy. Most studies say yes, but that conclusion was questioned by the U.K. newspaper the Guardian in 2004. The paper commissioned the Aggressive Research Investigative Facility (ARIF) at the University of Birmingham to review the medical reports. ARIF’s conclusion: Most studies of SRS outcomes were fatally flawed, the major failing being that a huge percentage of SRS patients dropped out of sight.
For example, one study found that of 727 subjects who had undergone male-to-female SRS, 539 had a known address. Of the 417 who were still alive, 355 agreed to participate. Of the 232 who actually returned their forms, 86 percent rated their “happiness with result” at 8 or higher on a 10-point scale.
You can spin this any way you want. The responders are a pretty satisfied group, but what’s up with the nonresponders?
Some are surely dead. A large-scale 2011 study from the Netherlands found treated transsexuals had much higher than normal death rates due to suicide, drug abuse, AIDS, and so on. Then again, other studies have concluded that while post-ops have high suicide rates, pre-ops’ are even higher."
Now, as you can read, it's obvious that not every gender change is a succes and I'm also of the opinion that probably not every single person who went through a sex operation should've done it. Some people truly are twisted and confused and see a sex surgery as some kind of weird escape from their current existence (which they probably hate), while they're not truly identifying with the other gender. They exist and we shouldn't pretend that they don't. Sex change is no solution for their problems.
But I think the part in bold is even more important. 86% of the actual participants (that ultimately responded in that particular poll) are very happy with the outcome and other studies have similar results. This surely means that it's effective to a very significant part of them (even considering all the non-responders).
My personal conclusion is that people who are asking for a sex change should be screened thoroughly psychologically (not because they're "ill", but because it's obviously a psychological issue) to make sure that they really are the kind of people that would benefit from an operation (i.e. people who truly are identifying with the opposite gender in their mind).
I think the main challenge regarding the subject of transgenderism lies in making this screening as effective and succesful as possible. Medical evolution has made this kind of plastic surgery possible (which is fantastic), but (ideally) it should only be used for people who "need" it (and not the ones who think they need it, but ultimately don't) to live a happy life, which I think every (good) person has a right to.
I am not sure how to answer your hypothetical honestly. The easy answer is that of course I think that person would be entitled to a reversal, but I know you are looking to dig deeper than that.
Well, sometimes the easy answer is the right one. ;)
I was just trying to see if some people would have any (moral) objections against surgical gender changes if the view on transgenderism that I described in that hypothesis was true. That way I know the discussion should only be about whether it is true or not.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 09:31 PM
There's actually a trans that shops at my store at night. I got no problem with him. Whatever floats his boat. But yes, he's still a he.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 09:35 PM
There's actually a trans that shops at my store at night. I got no problem with him. Whatever floats his boat. But yes, he's still a he.
Oh, then you've seen me there.
Citizen Rules
06-02-15, 09:38 PM
I just read about Jenner at Wiki. I thought Jenner had sex reassignment surgeon but according to Wiki, didn't. Is that correct? Just the breast implants but still has male genitalia?
yup he said he has no plans to remove his penis
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 09:46 PM
Look at how "she" writes about herself on her Twitter page:
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=21693&stc=1&d=1433292321
"Welcome to the world Caitlyn. Can't wait for you to get know her/me."
He's talking about HERself as if Caitlyn is some other person and not himself/herself.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 09:47 PM
yup he said he has no plans to remove his penis
'Cause he doesn't have the balls to do it.
Citizen Rules
06-02-15, 09:48 PM
yup he said he has no plans to remove his penis Well, I still wish Caitlyn well and whatever Jenner wants to do is Jenner's business. But if you got a penis, you're not a woman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apa0nG1OfUc
True happiness is the main issue here, I think. There's only one question that should really matter. Do transsexuals actually get happier after they've gone through a (surgical) sex change?
Here's part of an article (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/43084/does-gender-reassignment-surgery-lead-to-happiness/) about the subject that tackles that question with numbers:
"The question is whether reassignment makes transsexuals happy. Most studies say yes, but that conclusion was questioned by the U.K. newspaper the Guardian in 2004. The paper commissioned the Aggressive Research Investigative Facility (ARIF) at the University of Birmingham to review the medical reports. ARIF’s conclusion: Most studies of SRS outcomes were fatally flawed, the major failing being that a huge percentage of SRS patients dropped out of sight.
For example, one study found that of 727 subjects who had undergone male-to-female SRS, 539 had a known address. Of the 417 who were still alive, 355 agreed to participate. Of the 232 who actually returned their forms, 86 percent rated their “happiness with result” at 8 or higher on a 10-point scale.
You can spin this any way you want. The responders are a pretty satisfied group, but what’s up with the nonresponders?
Some are surely dead. A large-scale 2011 study from the Netherlands found treated transsexuals had much higher than normal death rates due to suicide, drug abuse, AIDS, and so on. Then again, other studies have concluded that while post-ops have high suicide rates, pre-ops’ are even higher."
Now, as you can read, it's obvious that not every gender change is a succes and I'm also of the opinion that probably not every single person who went through a sex operation should've done it. Some people truly are twisted and confused and see a sex surgery as some kind of weird escape from their current existence (which they probably hate), while they're not truly identifying with the other gender. They exist and we shouldn't pretend that they don't. Sex change is no solution for their problems.
But I think the part in bold is even more important. 86% of the actual participants (that ultimately responded in that particular poll) are very happy with the outcome and other studies have similar results. This surely means that it's effective to a very significant part of them (even considering all the non-responders).
My personal conclusion is that people who are asking for a sex change should be screened thoroughly psychologically (not because they're "ill", but because it's obviously a psychological issue) to make sure that they really are the kind of people that would benefit from an operation (i.e. people who truly are identifying with the opposite gender in their mind).
I think the main challenge regarding the subject of transgenderism lies in making this screening as effective and succesful as possible. Medical evolution has made this kind of plastic surgery possible (which is fantastic), but (ideally) it should only be used for people who "need" it (and not the ones who think they need it, but ultimately don't) to live a happy life, which I think every (good) person has a right to.
Well, sometimes the easy answer is the right one. ;)
I was just trying to see if some people would have any (moral) objections against surgical gender changes if the view on transgenderism that I described in that hypothesis was true. That way I know the discussion should only be about whether it is true or not.
When only 33% of the people even participate it seems like a stretch to use the 86% as an accurate reflection of happiness. When you have to measure the suicide rates of this group I think that tells you that there may be a deeper rooted problem that goes beyond just having a gender identity issue.Of course I think everyone has a right to true happiness but what that looks like and how we achieve it is pretty complex. In my experience the less we focus on ourselves and the more we focus on others the closer we get. Of course that is easier said than done. It's a big issue and one I will talk to you about further if you wish but for tonight I have to be done.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 10:09 PM
There's actually a trans that shops at my store at night. I got no problem with him. Whatever floats his boat. But yes, he's still a he.
Well, I still wish Caitlyn well and whatever Jenner wants to do is Jenner's business. But if you got a penis, you're not a woman.
Why do you both feel the need to point this out so explicitly? You know the people you are talking about don't want to be perceived as men anymore and yet you both think it's somehow smart to insist that they still (biologically) are. You somehow feel the need to point out the thing they hate about themselves the most.
This is like saying about a boy with no legs who's able to walk for the first time with artificial legs that he "still has no real legs". In my opinion, it comes across as being a mean smartass about something that should be positive. It's a low blow.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:12 PM
Oh please, Cob. That is the worst comparison I have ever heard of.
A person with no legs was obviously not voluntarily doing that.
Nobody put a gun to Bruce's head and told him to change himself.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 10:16 PM
When only 33% of the people even participate it seems like a stretch to use the 86% as an accurate reflection of happiness.
Well, it definitely shows that a (statistically) significant part is happy with the results.
When you have to measure the suicide rates of this group I think that tells you that there may be a deeper rooted problem that goes beyond just having a gender identity issue.
What about a large part of society not being nice to them (or being blatantly hateful)? Could that be the deeper rooted problem. ;)
Of course I think everyone has a right to true happiness but what that looks like and how we achieve it is pretty complex. In my experience the less we focus on ourselves and the more we focus on others the closer we get. Of course that is easier said than done. It's a big issue and one I will talk to you about further if you wish but for tonight I have to be done.
Loving others starts with loving yourself. ;)
I'm certain we'll be able to talk about stuff like this in the future here. Thanks for responding, Seanc!
Citizen Rules
06-02-15, 10:17 PM
See it how you want, Cob....Earlier, I considered Caitlyn a woman because I thought there was sex reassignment surgeon involved. However after reading about Jenner on Wiki a few minutes ago, I wished to be clear to what my opinion is, hence I stated, 'if someone has a penis their not a woman.'
So that's my opinion and to deny someone the right to have a different opinion is bigoted. So you must endorse my opinion to be open minded;)
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 10:18 PM
Oh please, Cob. That is the worst comparison I have ever heard of.
A person with no legs was obviously not voluntarily doing that.
Nobody put a gun to Bruce's head and told him to change himself.
So you think transgender people are voluntarily having a gender identity crisis? :rolleyes:
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 10:19 PM
So that's my opinion and to deny someone the right to have a different opinion is bigoted. So you must endorse my opinion to be open minded;)
That's literally the most untrue thing I've ever read in my life.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:20 PM
*literally
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 10:21 PM
Thanks.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:22 PM
So you think transgender people are voluntarily having a gender identity crisis? :rolleyes:
its about how they feel not who they actually are. So yes.
Citizen Rules
06-02-15, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?p=1326321#post1326321)
So that's my opinion and to deny someone the right to have a different opinion is bigoted. So you must endorse my opinion to be open minded;)That's litterally the most untrue thing I've ever read in my life.
You're right, as my sentence was constructed poorly. I should have said:
So that's my opinion and to deny someone the right to have a different opinion is bigoted. So you must endorse my right to have an opinion, to be open mindedyourself.
Is that better;)
I will answer these back real quick because I can't help myself. Then I have some Game Of Thrones to get to. :D
What about a large part of society not being nice to them (or being blatantly hateful)? Could that be the deeper rooted problem. ;)
To circle this back to Jenner. It doesn't seem like anyone was being hateful to him before this and I don't think most are now. Even people like me, at least I hope not. No one was calling Jenner girly.
Loving others starts with loving yourself. ;)
In my opinion we as a culture have this backwards.
Talk to you later Cob.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 10:23 PM
Raul, why do you feel like a man?
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 10:23 PM
its about how they feel not who they actually are. So yes.
So you can just choose how you feel? :eek:
Please, teach me that trick, master.
Also: *It's
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 10:28 PM
To circle this back to Jenner. It doesn't seem like anyone was being hateful to him before this and I don't think most are now. Even people like me, at least I hope not. No one was calling Jenner girly.
That was a response to the relatively high suicide rate with transgenders you were talking about and I think it's part of the deeply rooted problematic reasons that might be behind that.
In my opinion we as a culture have this backwards.
That would definitely make for a very interesting discussion. It might differ from person to person. ;)
Why do you both feel the need to point this out so explicitly? You know the people you are talking about don't want to be perceived as men anymore and yet you both think it's somehow smart to insist that they still (biologically) are. You somehow feel the need to point out the thing they hate about themselves the most.
This is like saying about a boy with no legs who's able to walk for the first time with artificial legs that he "still has no real legs". In my opinion, it comes across as being a mean smartass about something that should be positive. It's a low blow.
I wanted to post that scene from the end of monte cristo where guy pierce says no matter what You'll never be noble! and i've got noble blood running through my veins, yada yada.
But amazingly I don't have this movie :eek:
One of my favorite books. Although they did mess up that ending a lot in the hollywood version. It's a hell of a lot better than that donut version that V for Vendetta was talking about. Never had bad acting so thoroughly ruin a movie for me before.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:32 PM
Raul, why do you feel like a man?
Because I am one.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 10:35 PM
So that's my opinion and to deny someone the right to have a different opinion is bigoted. So you must endorse my right to have an opinion, to be open mindedyourself.
And I have the right to call your opinion unsympathetic and inconsiderate. :)
I wonder when (some) people are going to learn that free speech does not mean that every discussion should end with both parties being totally fine with eachother's opinions.
P.S. Raul, you still need to teach me that trick of yours that makes you totally in control of your feelings. ;)
Citizen Rules
06-02-15, 10:45 PM
And I have the right to call your opinion unsympathetic and inconsiderate. :) Touché,:) But I'm not inconsiderate, I voted for gay marriage in my state and I support any adults right to live their life as they see fit, even if I don't understand it.
Sexual identity is a very strongly engrained trait in humans. Jenner feels strongly about being a woman and some of us feel strongly about what makes a man a man and a woman a woman. I seen the term she-male earlier in the thread which I though was a bit roguish, but now I see it's aptly applied.
I wonder when people are going to learn that free speech does not mean that every discussion should end with both parties being totally fine with eachother's opinions. Agreed...so we agreed to disagree, there forth we agree;) Just kidding you, I'm in a good mood.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 10:45 PM
I'm not saying that in the least Cob. I'm not using my words accurately. I mean, nobody is making Bruce go all out and "transform" into Caitlyn. Even if he feels like a girl, he doesn't have to make it so dramatic, because no matter what he does, he still is Bruce. You can't just stop being who you are. You can make changes yes, but as a person, your history doesn't just evaporate and go away.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 10:47 PM
Why do you think Jenner is being dramatic? I'm not saying SHE isn't, but, your feelings are...?
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 10:53 PM
Touché,:) But I'm not inconsiderate, I voted for gay marriage in my state and I support any adults right to live their life as they see fit, even if I don't understand it.
Sexual identity is a very strongly engrained trait in humans. Jenner feels strongly about being a woman and some of us feel strongly about what makes a man a man and a woman a woman. I seen the term she-male earlier in the thread which I though was a bit roguish, but now I see it's aptly applied.
Well, as long as you don't call people things that (you know) will hurt them, I'm fine with whatever or whoever you think they actually are. :)
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 11:00 PM
I'm not saying that in the least Cob. I'm not using my words accurately.
You were practically saying that. I can't smell that you weren't using your words accurately. ;)
I mean, nobody is making Bruce go all out and "transform" into Caitlyn. Even if he feels like a girl, he doesn't have to make it so dramatic, because no matter what he does, he still is Bruce.
When her name is legally changed to Caitlyn, she actually is Caitlyin and not Bruce. She just is, whether you like that or not. A name only has legal significance. You can also change your gender legally, by the way (in most states of the US at least).
You can't just stop being who you are. You can make changes yes, but as a person, your history doesn't just evaporate and go away.
I'm not saying she stops being who she was. I'm saying she changed a part of who she was that made her life miserable. The history of a person doesn't just evaporate, but that doesn't mean that it's necessary or desirable to rub a painful aspect of a person's past in his or her face...
rauldc14
06-02-15, 11:04 PM
You're not listening, therefore I am done in this thread :)
jiraffejustin
06-02-15, 11:05 PM
I am really impressed with Caitlyn Jenner to be honest with you, she's the only the woman to have ever won the Men's Olympic Decathlon Gold Medal. Kudos.
You can be a woman and still have a penis IMO.
What if I kidnapped your wife or girlfriend and grafted a penis onto her. Would you then be gay for kissing her? would she be a man?
Of course not. it's just an appendage it doesn't define who you are.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 11:07 PM
You're not listening, therefore I am done in this thread :)
Yes, I am. I'm listening very carefully. Your arguments just don't make any sense. Too bad you're not willing to admit it.
No more theon… say hello to reek!
rauldc14
06-02-15, 11:16 PM
Yes, I am. I'm listening very carefully. Your arguments just don't make any sense. Too bad you're not willing to admit it.
Bigot
A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 11:21 PM
Bigot
A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions
I'm saying the arguments you use to defend your opinions don't make any logical sense and I've substantiated that by exposing (what I think are) the logical flaws in them.
That's not at all the same as being intolerant. That's trying to have a rational discussion.
I'm sorry, Raul, but you're making some very weird moves here and I think it's because you're not capable of defending your point anymore.
I think what raul is trying to say is that this isn't true. I believe jj meant that as a joke, even if it's partially correct as far as I know. :)
I am really impressed with Caitlyn Jenner to be honest with you, she's the only the woman to have ever won the Men's Olympic Decathlon Gold Medal. Kudos.
We can talk about Caitlyn in the here and now as she, but in the past, Bruce was obviously placed in the proper gender for the Olympics, so it just complicates talking about her, especially with someone ignorant of her history. Her past is tied to Bruce. When they make Caitlyn's biography, you can be sure that there will be credits for both Bruce and Caitlyn, obviously.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 11:38 PM
I think what raul is trying to say is that this isn't true.
What's not true?
rauldc14
06-02-15, 11:41 PM
Mark is right
What jj said in my quote.
Frightened Inmate No. 2
06-02-15, 11:41 PM
i'm so sick of the idea that all opinions are created equal. some opinions are just bad and they need to be called out, like raul's in this thread.
rauldc14
06-02-15, 11:42 PM
OK, maybe that's not what I meant :p
rauldc14
06-02-15, 11:43 PM
i'm so sick of the idea that all opinions are created equal. some opinions are just bad and they need to be called out, like raul's in this thread.
Just to let you know there are two sides to this argument, and I'm not alone.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 11:48 PM
i'm so sick of the idea that all opinions are created equal. some opinions are just bad and they need to be called out, like raul's in this thread.
Excuse me, but who said your opinions were correct?
I agree that not all opinions are created equal -- but are YOURS absolutely right? Not everybody thinks so.
donniedarko
06-02-15, 11:48 PM
It's a complicated issue. I think everyone, at the appropriate age, should do what makes them happy. Should it be normalized? I don't know. I definitely think it's irresponsible parenting to let a child make this choice, which happens more and more. Really complicated, and I can see both sides. If he/she is happy, good for them.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 11:52 PM
You can be a woman and still have a penis IMO.
What if I kidnapped your wife or girlfriend and grafted a penis onto her. Would you then be gay for kissing her? would she be a man?
Of course not. it's just an appendage it doesn't define who you are.
This is just stupid. There's a difference between being born with a penis and having a psycho kidnap a woman and graft one onto her.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 11:53 PM
I don't see this argument going anywhere anymore, as Raul already said that he wanted out (and it's also 4:52 AM over here), but I'll just conclude with this:
We can talk about Caitlyn in the here and now as she
Mark is right
That's a good enough conclusion for me. :p
Just don't be inconsiderate. That's all I was trying to say. It's not classy.
Sexy Celebrity
06-02-15, 11:54 PM
Just don't be inconsiderate. That's all I was trying to say. It's not classy.
Not everybody's here to be classy.
Cobpyth
06-02-15, 11:57 PM
Not everybody's here to be classy.
The "inconsiderate"-part was more important. ;)
It's declassey.
http://www.seanobrien.org/images/television/officeclassyjim.jpg
donniedarko
06-02-15, 11:59 PM
From wiki
She was the 1976 recipient of the James E. Sullivan Award as the top amateur athlete in the United States. Jenner was also the Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year in 1976.
See the whole she thing doesn't make sense. A girl did not win the 1976 Olympic decathlon competition. It was a man. When married to Kris, was Bruce a lesbian. It's just not that simple to say, it's always been Caitlin and Caitlin has always been female. SHE did not win an Olympic gold medal.
At the same time, I wouldn't over simplify it by saying "there's a dick, therefore it's a dude".
From wiki
See the whole she thing doesn't make sense. A girl did not win the 1976 Olympic decathlon competition. It was a man. When married to Kris, was Bruce a lesbian. It's just not that simple to say, it's always been Caitlin and Caitlin has always been female. SHE did not win an Olympic gold medal.
At the same time, I wouldn't over simplify it by saying "there's a dick, therefore it's a dude".
Naturally. If she were a woman the whole time, then there would be no point in any of this transformation.
This is just stupid. There's a difference between being born with a penis and having a psycho kidnap a woman and graft one onto her.
I was making a point that a penis doesn't define you as a person.
And there you go name calling with that psycho business, just because I have an innocent penis grafting fetish
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 12:09 AM
I was making a point that a penis doesn't define you as a person.
Then if they graft a vagina on Brucille Jenner, does that make him a woman??
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 12:10 AM
Does it make him a woman just because he FEELS like a woman????
Does it make him a woman if he lives a year as a woman?????
Then if they graft a vagina on Brucille Jenner, does that make him a woman??
my point is that a vagina or penis doesn't define who you are. it's more complex than that.
Cobpyth
06-03-15, 12:11 AM
See the whole she thing doesn't make sense. A girl did not win the 1976 Olympic decathlon competition. It was a man. When married to Kris, was Bruce a lesbian. It's just not that simple to say, it's always been Caitlin and Caitlin has always been female. SHE did not win an Olympic gold medal.
At the same time, I wouldn't over simplify it by saying "there's a dick, therefore it's a dude".
Fair point. The pronoun game is a bit complex and frankly I don't really care enough for it to make a discussion out of it. Just use the name instead (or say something like "as Bruce"). It's a problem that can be overcome.
It's just important to not openly insist that "he is still Bruce" or "he is still a man" or stuff like that. That's just being mean.
Does it make him a woman just because he FEELS like a woman????
Does it make him a woman if he lives a year as a woman?????
I think if she identifies as a woman, feels like a woman, and lives like a woman. then yes she is a woman.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 12:16 AM
Fair point. The pronoun game is a bit complex and frankly I don't really care enough for it to make a discussion out of it. Just use the name instead (or say something like "as Bruce"). It's a problem that can be overcome.
It's just important to not openly insist that "he is still Bruce" or "he is still a man" or stuff like that. That's just being mean.
It might be mean -- but you know what? It might be a reality. As I said before -- I don't think there's any real solid proof that this is a birth defect. That people are born the wrong gender. If that's true, that would mean "Caitlyn Jenner" is a man. A man who's just trying to define himself as a woman, despite the fact that he was born a man.
I think there's actually a difference between men and women. I think men and women are different kinds of animals. And that no matter what, if transgenderism is false, that means Caitlyn Jenner is a man. Period.
Citizen Rules
06-03-15, 12:16 AM
my point is that a vagina or penis doesn't define who you are. it's more complex than that.A vagina or penis might not define 'who' you are but it defines what sex you are. Or at least it use to.
According to that line of thinking, a person is what ever they think they are, so then someone who thinks they're a Martian must truly be from Mars. Which of course is PC tripe at it's worst.
And with that I'm out of here for the night.....BTW where's Ace???
A vagina or penis might not define 'who' you are but it defines what sex you are. Or at least it use to.
According to that line of thinking, a person is what ever they think they are, so then someone who thinks they're a Martian must truly be from Mars. Which of course is PC tripe at it's worst.
And with that I'm out of here for the night.....BTW where's Ace???
I think you need to go back and re-read my penis grafting post.
Also you need to re-read my post about gender being different from sex, and how gender was something that we INVENTED as a society.
It is different than martian. If you can't grasp why then you're beyond reach for discussion .
It might be mean -- but you know what? It might be a reality. As I said before -- I don't think there's any real solid proof that this is a birth defect. That people are born the wrong gender. If that's true, that would mean "Caitlyn Jenner" is a man. A man who's just trying to define himself as a woman, despite the fact that he was born a man.
I think there's actually a difference between men and women. I think men and women are different kinds of animals. And that no matter what, if transgenderism is false, that means Caitlyn Jenner is a man. Period.
I think you are confusing sex with gender.
Her sex will always be male. Her gender is now female.
Used Future
06-03-15, 12:21 AM
Shortly after arriving in Canada we kept seeing Bruce/Caitlyn on magazine covers at the supermarket checkout, and had no idea who he/she was. Probably because we'd both rather stick pins in our eyes than watch superficial crap like The Kardashians. The story became something Kathy and I inadvertently caught up with through tabloid headlines whilst topping up on groceries. I'd look up from a bag of dirty potatoes and see Bruce's tortured mugshot on the cover of some pseudo-celebrity-slag-mag.
I have no problem with gender re-assignment and wish Caitlyn a discrimination free life. Live and let live I say. Anyway I'm sure she's raked in such a huge mountain of dosh by now that she can comfortably disappear from public view forever...no?
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 12:26 AM
I think you are confusing sex with gender.
Her sex will always be male. Her gender is now female.
But is he really a woman or is it all just illusion? Is it a mental illness?
Cobpyth
06-03-15, 12:31 AM
It might be mean -- but you know what? It might be a reality. As I said before -- I don't think there's any real solid proof that this is a birth defect. That people are born the wrong gender. If that's true, that would mean "Caitlyn Jenner" is a man. A man who's just trying to define himself as a woman, despite the fact that he was born a man.
Well, I remember you answering with "kindness" when I asked what was the most important virtue that the human race should pursue. ;)
Anyway, if we would always act wrong according to an assumed reality, there are two possibilities:
1) Our society is welcoming to men who are randomly changing to women (and vice-versa) while not actually having genuine gender identity crisis.
2) We're disrespecting people who identify as women, but are trapped in a male body (or vice-versa) and don't support them at all, just because they were unlucky.
Hmmmm, in what case would "acting wrong according to reality" cause the greatest unhappiness? I say 2.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 12:33 AM
Well, I remember you answering with "kindness" when I asked what was the most important virtue that the human race should pursue. ;)
Yes. Which means -- don't kill Bruce Jenner/Caitlyn Jenner just because he's... you know.
That doesn't mean we have to accept what's going on. I'm kindly trying to help him and the rest of the world get this sh*t figured out.
But is he really a woman or is it all just illusion? Is it a mental illness?
When I become a woman it's an illusion. Just a temporary thing and I can wash, peel and strip myself back down to a man.
For many it is the real thing, not an illusion.
Since I don't know jenner personally I can't say for sure but I take her at her word. I'm not staking my life on it and I've no reason to doubt her.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 12:34 AM
I think the world isn't being very kind when it doesn't want to hear other people's opinions.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 12:37 AM
When I become a woman it's an illusion. Just a temporary thing and I can wash, peel and strip myself back down to a man.
For many it is the real thing, not an illusion.
Since I don't know jenner personally I can't say for sure but I take her at her word. I'm not staking my life on it and I've no reason to doubt her.
How do you know these people aren't just doing what you're doing, but at a more extreme level?
A man dressing in drag looks pretty extreme, but honey, you know someone's always capable of being even MORE extreme. That might be what "transgenderism" is. People who take the crossdressing thing to an even more extreme level!
These people just might be deluded and convincing themselves that they're the wrong sex, when they're really NOT.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 12:48 AM
Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is 'Mental Disorder;' Sex Change 'Biologically Impossible' (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change)
(CNSNews.com) -- Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital (http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/profiles/results/directory/profile/0003340/paul-mchugh) and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder.
Dr. McHugh, the author of six books and at least 125 peer-reviewed medical articles, made his remarks in a recent commentary (http://online.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120) in the Wall Street Journal, where he explained that transgender surgery is not the solution for people who suffer a “disorder of ‘assumption’” – the notion that their maleness or femaleness is different than what nature assigned to them biologically.
He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. Dr. McHugh further noted studies from Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70%-80% “spontaneously lost those feelings.”
While the Obama administration, Hollywood, and major media such as Time magazine promote transgenderism as normal, said Dr. McHugh, these “policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention.”
“This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken – it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.”
The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh (http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/profiles/results/directory/profile/0003340/paul-mchugh), is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh.
This assumption, that one’s gender is only in the mind regardless of anatomical reality, has led some transgendered people to push for social acceptance and affirmation of their own subjective “personal truth,” said Dr. McHugh. As a result, some states – California, New Jersey, and Massachusetts – have passed laws barring psychiatrists, “even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor,” he said.
The pro-transgender advocates do not want to know, said McHugh, that studies show between 70% and 80% of children who express transgender feelings “spontaneously lose those feelings” over time. Also, for those who had sexual reassignment surgery, most said they were “satisfied” with the operation “but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery.”
“And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a ‘satisfied’ but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs,” said Dr. McHugh.
The former Johns Hopkins chief of psychiatry also warned against enabling or encouraging certain subgroups of the transgendered, such as young people “susceptible to suggestion from ‘everything is normal’ sex education,” and the schools’ “diversity counselors” who, like “cult leaders,” may “encourage these young people to distance themselves from their families and offer advice on rebutting arguments against having transgender surgery.”
Dr. McHugh also reported that there are “misguided doctors” who, working with very young children who seem to imitate the opposite sex, will administer “puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgeries less onerous – even though the drugs stunt the children’s growth and risk causing sterility.”
Such action comes “close to child abuse,” said Dr. McHugh, given that close to 80% of those kids will “abandon their confusion and grow naturally into adult life if untreated ….”
“’Sex change’ is biologically impossible,” said McHugh. “People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.”
What a bunch of crap, I had to stop reading after this line
"He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people"
This is blatant manipulation and misrepresentation.
They're not comparing transgendered who had surgery to transgender who didn't have surgery.
ALL transgender have a much higher suicide rate. It's very difficult to fit in and be accepted, it's difficult for people to understand. Just look at all the crap in this thread.
How do you know these people aren't just doing what you're doing, but at a more extreme level?
A man dressing in drag looks pretty extreme, but honey, you know someone's always capable of being even MORE extreme. That might be what "transgenderism" is. People who take the crossdressing thing to an even more extreme level!
These people just might be deluded and convincing themselves that they're the wrong sex, when they're really NOT.
Maybe there are no gay people.
Maybe there are only bi-sexuals and these 'gay' people take the bisexual thing to an even more extreme level.
:eek:
Frightened Inmate No. 2
06-03-15, 01:17 AM
yeah i'm not clicking on this thread anymore. have a nice day everyone and good luck caitlyn.
donniedarko
06-03-15, 01:24 AM
yeah i'm not clicking on this thread anymore.
That's one way to deal with other opinions
MovieBuffering
06-03-15, 03:23 AM
Ok. Really good discussion in here. Here is what I struggle with. Pretense this by saying I don't care what a single soul does on this earth to THEMSELVES it's when you physically harm or emotionally harm other people is when it crosses the line.
I read where she is still attracted to women. I'd have to figure out where I read it but I know I read it. Maybe it was worded Bruce/Caitylin wasn't attracted to men. Ok does that make her gay? Because if you keep your penis and still want to have sex with women I am totally confused on what to call he/she's sexuality. If that's the case I'd just have to call him a cross dresser with fake boobs who is straight. Maybe she is just asexual now and not attracted to any sex? It's totally freaking confusing to me now, he/she's sexually orientation.
And about her doing it for publicity. I don't think she would put herself through this just to stay relevant, but let's not kid ourselves she knows she is going get paid off this. I think the reality show is appalling. You know what would have been more constructive platform? A documentary. That would show yea, I am going get paid for this but I will spread awareness about transgender through this raw/real median and then she could travel and give speeches (if she really really genuine about helping transgender people). Instead she is going abuse this and milk it for all the cash she can by creating scripted, I mean reality tv, out of this.
***UPDATE**** of course I go and read her wikipedia page and if it is correct she identifies herself as asexual, one question answered, and she is doing a documentary. I still think the reality show is bad taste but whatever what does it matter she is getting paid.
Daniel M
06-03-15, 08:46 AM
She said in an interview she's still attracted to women, and that gender identity and sexual orentiation are separate things.
earlsmoviepicks
06-03-15, 10:10 AM
Actually, thinking on this again, it doubles Jenners' chances of getting a date on Saturday night.
What are you referring to may I ask?
The fact that, in virtually any other context, wanting to remove one of your own organs or appendages is considered a sign of mental distress.
Do you think the former Bruce Jenner has a 'mental illness' because the person now is referred to Caitlyn Jenner and is wanting to be a she? Then you must think that a person who is a homosexual or any other people of the LGBT community....has a 'mental illness'.
I don't have to think that, because despite sharing letters in an acronym, they're completely different things. Most notably in the way I just described above.
Thursday Next
06-03-15, 12:19 PM
The fact that, in virtually any other context, wanting to remove one of your own organs or appendages is considered a sign of mental distress.
What about people who remove body parts because of the risk of cancer?
What about people who have reconstructive surgery due to being born with some kind of disfigurement?
There are a number of conditions people could be born with that may not be life threatening but are treatable through surgery, and people choose that surgery because otherwise their appearance or the way their body functions causes them distress to live with.
Gender reassignment is more complex than just chopping off a penis, anyway.
I'd assumed this was obvious from context, but if not: I was referring to removing major organs or appendages for purely elective reasons.
Thursday Next
06-03-15, 12:30 PM
But the examples I gave are elective. People do choose to remove breasts for elective reasons, just because of a family history of cancer, because the statistics say they have a high probability of getting breast cancer, rather than because they actually have a tumour.
And people do choose reconstructive surgery for certain disfigurements. They don't have to. Their conditions aren't life threatening, but they choose to have surgery because they don't want to live the way they were born, and they believe the surgery would improve their lives. How is that different to gender reassignment?
But the examples I gave are elective. People do choose to remove breasts for elective reasons, just because of a family history of cancer, because the statistics say they have a high probability of getting breast cancer, rather than because they actually have a tumour.
It's not really "elective" if your alternative might be to die; that's a Hobson's choice. Cutting off your arm because it's infected and might kill you is not comparable to cutting it off just because you've decided it shouldn't be there, which is why one is universally regarded as sane, and the other is universally regarded as not.
And people do choose reconstructive surgery for certain disfigurements. They don't have to. Their conditions aren't life threatening, but they choose to have surgery because they don't want to live the way they were born, and they believe the surgery would improve their lives. How is that different to gender reassignment?
The answer is in the very use of the word "disfigurement," which acknowledges that something about them is objectively broken or outside of how humans are meant to physically develop.
The obvious response, I suppose, is to say that transgender people are in a similar situation, and that the dissonance between their minds and bodies is itself a type of disfigurement. But that isn't an objective fact the way a physical threat to one's life is, or the way a disfigurement is, which is why it's at least reasonable to question the idea.
And the questions you're asking (which are completely fair) go the other way, too: how is body integrity identity disorder different? If someone can ardently insist that their arm should not be there, and they'd feel better without it, from what basis can you claim otherwise?
Throw in completely superficial cosmetic surgery, while you're at it: do you think it's unreasonable to question people who have dozens of cosmetic surgeries, until they've turned themselves into a plastic nightmare? Or who get comically large breast implants? Or decided they want to look like a celebrity? I don't know how much psychological resemblance these situations have, but if your position is that someone's desire for body modification is its own justification, then I don't see why you'd stop at gender reassignment.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 02:19 PM
What about people who remove body parts because of the risk of cancer?
What about people who have reconstructive surgery due to being born with some kind of disfigurement?
There are a number of conditions people could be born with that may not be life threatening but are treatable through surgery, and people choose that surgery because otherwise their appearance or the way their body functions causes them distress to live with.
Your examples have a more provable, physical reality to them. Especially the one where you can actually see the disfigurement.
A person claiming to be transgendered... they largely have only that to go by. I was reading a blog by a major trans advocate yesterday... she cited studies done that offer what look like reasons someone is born transgendered, but NOTHING is conclusive. They are all just studies. Some of them dealing with twins... which is what they also look at with gay people a lot, to see if you're born gay -- twin studies.
There's no proof you're born transgendered. Similarly, there's no proof of a gay gene. I am not pushing to call these things "mental illnesses" but they could be part of some kind of issue that we are overlooking.
I think we are because I think the media and a political agenda is really what's pushing to normalize these issues and make them legit. Especially since a lot of people against it happen to be religious, and the trend nowadays is to bash religious people. I'm not one of those people, yet I do think I lean more towards their side when it comes to not believing in these things.
I think everyone's being bullied and brainwashed into accepting theories like "people are born transgendered" and "people are born gay." I'm not willing to go along with that because I'm not convinced it's true. They're my feelings about these things based on observations, things I've read, things I've learned, and the fact that there's still no concrete proof. I'm not against it because I'm religious and want to save their souls or anything -- I just think the studies aren't actually proving anything. I would rather live in an honest world, where we were truthful about these things.
I think you can still be transgender even if it's an illusion, if it's not based on reality. It's just if you do that, people find it riskier. They would be seen as mentally ill. People don't want that and that's why there's a strong push to normalize this issue, so that those who call themselves trans can walk the planet without fear of others who might hurt them, who might look down upon them. I'm perfectly okay with trans people as people -- though, if I had a kid who wanted to do it, I'd be horrified and totally against it. Same with a friend. Being trans is okay with me -- but pretending it's something you're born as, when it may not be, bothers me. I'd like a culture of acceptance, but I don't want a culture of lies.
Thursday Next
06-03-15, 05:30 PM
The answer is in the very use of the word "disfigurement," which acknowledges that something about them is objectively broken or outside of how humans are meant to physically develop.
...
Throw in completely superficial cosmetic surgery, while you're at it: do you think it's unreasonable to question people who have dozens of cosmetic surgeries, until they've turned themselves into a plastic nightmare? Or who get comically large breast implants? Or decided they want to look like a celebrity? I don't know how much psychological resemblance these situations have, but if your position is that someone's desire for body modification is its own justification, then I don't see why you'd stop at gender reassignment.
I did hesitate before using the word disfigured, as I'm not sure that it completely expresses what I meant. There may be other issues people have with their body or appearance that wouldn't be termed a disfigurement.
To what extent can we be objective when it comes to physical appearance? And at what point does cosmetic surgery become 'completely superficial'?
What about someone who has particularly protruding ears who wants them pinned back? They aren't in any physical danger, but they might suffer enough psychologically that they choose to have this procedure done. And if people do choose this for their own peace of mind, who are we to judge them for that?
I don't think that it's unreasonable to question people have dozens of cosmetic surgeries at all. And I do think there are people who think surgery will fix all their problems when it won't. But on the other hand there are plenty of cosmetic procedures that are easier to get done without a tenth of the psychological assessment that accompanies gender reassignment and nobody bats a botoxed eyelid at those.
I think it's interesting that you use the words "comically large" and "nightmare" to describe the effects of cosmetic surgery. While of course ill-advised cosmetic surgery can have those effects, for some people the way they are born is the nightmare, and if that can be remedied with surgery than why shouldn't they have that option?
rauldc14
06-03-15, 07:28 PM
Since we can be anything I have decided to transform into a Panda. My new name is Kung Fu.
Citizen Rules
06-03-15, 07:34 PM
I've implanted a hood scoop on my chest, racing stripes down my sides and a spoiler wing on my ass, now I'm a racing car:rotfl:
AdamUpBxtch
06-03-15, 07:36 PM
People get sex changes all the time, an Olympic Athlete gets one and now it's a big deal....the media kills me sometimes.
So pretty much what the media and everyone is saying is that only famous people who get sex changes are considered heroes/inspirations and not everyday people that get them. smh...
Since we can be anything I have decided to transform into a Panda. My new name is Kung Fu.
Oh hai Ju-Jitsu.
Sorry if I keep getting your name wrong, this is the first day of your transformation isn't it? :D
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 07:40 PM
I've implanted a hood scoop on my chest, racing stripes down my sides and a spoiler wing on my ass, now I'm a racing car:rotfl:
You know.... I could see a point where people actually start having surgeries to transform into things that aren't people.
People already do things like this to themselves:
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=21700&stc=1&d=1433371227
Next thing you know, someone's gonna be having surgery to turn into a mountain lion.
Actually, I think it's already happened.
The Gunslinger45
06-03-15, 07:55 PM
You know.... I could see a point where people actually start having surgeries to transform into things that aren't people.
People already do things like this to themselves:
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=21700&stc=1&d=1433371227
Next thing you know, someone's gonna be having surgery to turn into a mountain lion.
Actually, I think it's already happened.
Tiger actually.
http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/catmanlfi_450x450.jpg
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 07:59 PM
100 years from now (or maybe even 2 years from now, who knows), a woman's gonna go out on a blind date.
When the man gets to her house, she's gonna hear a horn honking. Already peeved that the man is rudely rushing her, she's gonna grab her purse, go outside, see the car, and then the car's gonna say, "You must be Mary. I'm Jack."
Simply put...if you can't accept a person whether they're lesbian, bisexual, gay, transgendger or whatever they choose to be, whatever they choose to do with they're own body and lifestyle...you yourself suffer from mental distress.
FU Gunslinger I just now got that Tiger guy out of my nightmares :laugh: . There's also that woman that looks like a barbie doll :eek:
Just so I'm on topic. I've not posted in this thread because I really couldn't care less, if She's happy then :up:
rauldc14
06-03-15, 08:12 PM
Anyways these are the people that Bruce (Caitlin) beat for the Arthur Ashe courage award: Lauren Hill, Noah Galloway, and Jim Kelly. That is just heartbreaking.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 08:13 PM
Anyways these are the people that Bruce (Caitlin) beat for the Arthur Ashe courage award: Lauren Hill, Noah Galloway, and Jim Kelly. That is just heartbreaking.
Reminds me of when Honeykid stole my "Funniest MoFo" MoFie.
Simply put...if you can't accept a person whether they're lesbian, bisexual, gay, transgendger or whatever they choose to be, whatever they choose to do with they're own body and lifestyle...you yourself suffer from mental distress.
Okay, I wasn't going to post in this thread today but this is like the third time you have said something like this.
What does accepting somebody look like to you?
Anyways these are the people that Bruce (Caitlin) beat for the Arthur Ashe courage award: Lauren Hill, Noah Galloway, and Jim Kelly. That is just heartbreaking.
Actually ESPN has said there is no such thing as a runner up for the award and there is no indication if they were being considered or not, that originated from a Radio Personality. I do agree that they were all much more deserving though.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/noah-galloway-amputee-runner-up-to-caitlyn-jenner-for-espys-2015-6
Monkeypunch
06-03-15, 08:28 PM
Anyways these are the people that Bruce (Caitlin) beat for the Arthur Ashe courage award: Lauren Hill, Noah Galloway, and Jim Kelly. That is just heartbreaking.
You do know that this info has been debunked on Snopes.com, right? Someone even posted a link to that in this thread already. :rolleyes:
You do know that this info has been debunked on Snopes.com, right? Someone even posted a link to that in this thread already. :rolleyes:
Debunked that they were runner ups because there's no such thing, but ESPN hasn't commented on whether they were considered or nof. If they were they all deserved it more IMO. Anyway that link I posted explains the situation.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 08:36 PM
Doesn't really matter, though. There's ALWAYS more people you could consider, and I'm sure other names went through their minds.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 08:39 PM
BTW, there's a lot of people out there bashing Miss Caitlyn Jenner and calling her a "he" and such. Including gay men. So you guys who are doing it.... you're not the only ones.
Some are even saying she is doing harm to the transgender community.
BTW, there's a lot of people out there bashing Miss Caitlyn Jenner and calling her a "he" and such. Including gay men. So you guys who are doing it.... you're not the only ones.
Some are even saying she is doing harm to the transgender community.
I wonder if John Mclanes comment in the shoutbox the other day about "unrealistic beauty standards" has became a problem with the Transgender community?
Probably not but it made me think.
.
What does accepting somebody look like to you?
That makes no sense. Accepting someone for who they are doesn't 'look like' anything. You just accept a person without any type of negative judgement.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 08:48 PM
I wonder if John Mclanes comment in the shoutbox the other day about "unrealistic beauty standards" has became a problem with the Transgender community?
Probably not but it made me think.
I wasn't entirely sure what that meant. If it means Caitlyn Jenner is just super beautiful, well.... I don't see how she's super beautiful myself.
I do think it's odd how so many male-to-female transsexuals turn into the idea of "the perfect woman." Meaning, they've gotta have the makeup, the styled hair, the big boobs, the slutty clothes, etc. As if that's what it means to be a woman -- to look like a fashion model or, in many cases, a streetwalker.
.
What does accepting somebody look like to you?
That makes no sense. Accepting someone for who they are doesn't 'look like' anything. You just accept a person without any type of negative judgement.
Do we though? Everybody, in every circumstance. I don't accept myself that unconditionally.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 09:06 PM
Nor do we even personally know Caitlyn Jenner. She could be a bitch.
I am going to say one more thing and I am out of this thread because it has gone to some crazy places.
What I have to say about judgement is this. Just because we don't agree with someone's choice, even a lifestyle choice, doesn't mean we don't accept the person.
I am a divorced man who doesn't believe in divorce. I think it is a huge part of the emotional struggle of people in our culture. I think it has a tremendous effect on my children now and will the rest of their lives. I am a walking contradiction. I am positive there have been many conversations about me by people who love me that reflect negatively on me. If I was famous people would talk negatively about me. It doesn't mean people don't accept me.
Some may not, and then they have to live with that. The point is disagreeing with a life decision is not automatically a dismissal of the person. It in fact can become the opposite of that.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 10:00 PM
I think being transgender and changing your sex can even be selfish. I mean, what about the people you know that have to readjust to the reality that you've become someone else? That trans advocate I was reading -- she's a transsexual -- and she's all like, "I have the perfect life! But my family.... that's another story - they can't accept this. BUT I DON'T CARE! No skin off my back!"
You always hear about the "proud parent" but where are the horror stories? Where are the stories about the families of transgendered people whose lives have become destroyed over the fact that their 30 year old son is now a 30 year old daughter? How can we all just shrug off the fact that someone you knew and loved all your life is now a new person? That's how Caitlyn Jenner is acting -- like she's a brand new person.
I could be 100% supportive of transgendered people -- supporting every transition story I hear -- then suddenly, a bombshell:
Jake Gyllenhaal is transitioning to be a woman!
:docbrown:
I would NOT be cool with it! Not for one moment!
donniedarko
06-03-15, 10:02 PM
Jake Gyllenhaal is transitioning to be a woman!
:docbrown:
I would NOT be cool with it! Not for one moment!
In the same regard, couldn't you say a sex change- in certain cases- can be selfish when looking at how the family is affected?
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 10:11 PM
In the same regard, couldn't you say a sex change- in certain cases- can be selfish when looking at how the family is affected?
You mean the family is being selfish for not accepting it?
Yes, but my point is, you basically always hear the "Woe is me - I'm transgendered and my family doesn't accept me." Often you hear the transsexual explaining this. Or you hear about their proud parent who couldn't be happier. But where's the story about the family and their feelings about how they can't deal with what's happened? Where's their coverage?
It's always told one specific way -- the family can't cope, and that's too bad. Their loss.
Well, how about we get a little more in depth with the people in the lives of transgendered people? Without the happy ending of the family turning around and accepting what's happened.
Is it always really that cool to have a mom or a dad who suddenly becomes transgendered? "Oh, my mom's cool, she used to be my dad."
You frequently hear about the "family that won't accept me." But maybe they have good reason to not accept the trans person in their life. Maybe the trans person IS being selfish.
Monkeypunch
06-03-15, 11:08 PM
This thread has gone off the rails on a crazy train. LOL.
But in regard to how the family feels, i can tell you that first hand. I didn't want to bring it up, but I feel like yeah, it's relevant now. My older sister is trans. She used to be my older brother. It sucked. She didn't want to understand how I felt and I didn't want to understand how she felt, and so our relationship is terrible to this day. We talk, but it's really strained, and never about anything personal. We will likely never see each other again. When I was going to get married, she refused to come (I didn't get married, obviously, it all turned to crap and i ended up with anger and crushing amounts of debt, but that's not important to this story), and I wasn't invited when she did get married. So yeah, it's not an easy thing to go through for ANYONE. I wish that everybody would take the time to stop and see how the other person feels. Not just "Oh, my family doesn't accept me," or "I refuse to accept this because I don't believe in this." That's my two cents.
I lost someone who was important to me, and I'd give anything to take it all back.
Sexy Celebrity
06-03-15, 11:17 PM
Hey... I'm sorry that happened. And maybe you wish you could take it all back. But this is what I was talking about. The family has their own feelings about this. You had your own feelings. Your sister could forget about it if she really wanted to -- if you want a closer relationship with ... her.
Citizen Rules
06-03-15, 11:37 PM
I'm truly sorry MonkeyPunch for your stressful situation. You're angry at your sister and it sounds like she is angry with you. So you both have something in common. If you can understand your own anger you might be able to understand hers.
I know you didn't ask for advice, but tell your sister you're sorry for anything you might have done to hurt her in the past, tell her you love her. Don't let life go by with so much anger between you two. There's hope, you can help heal her wounds, and I bet they're deep and so are yours. Maybe your forgiveness to her can bring you comfort too.
If only life were so easy to apologize but I think with the right attitude and enough time people will eventually come around.
My family has never had a problem with me in drag, so they are cool in some ways. Although it's never been a heavy emotional issue for me either.
It is slightly better than I expected. The split between the positive reactions and the negative ones is fairly even, which obviously could be better but also could have been worse. Anyway, good for Caitlyn and to hell with the haters who can't even use the right pronouns.
Transgender is a psychological diagnosis, not a hard diagnosis like a brain tumor, and therefore the margin for error is a lot higher, so a lot of people are going to be skeptical, despite it being politically incorrect to do so.
I believe transgenders do exist, but on the same note I believe there are plenty of ones wrongfully diagnosed considering the lack of hard medical proof required. So I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and immediately cheer this on, especially since I'd think he'd have realized this at a much younger age if it was authentic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM6fQ52YZoM
Larry David is the only person making sense in this thread. Nothing unusual that's pretty much how all threads end up here!
What are you referring to may I ask? Do you think the former Bruce Jenner has a 'mental illness' because the person now is referred to Caitlyn Jenner and is wanting to be a she? Then you must think that a person who is a homosexual or any other people of the LGBT community....has a 'mental illness'. That is just sad.
If I'm wrong than I apologize. If I'm not then I feel sorry for you.
Transgender isn't comparable to homosexuality, since homosexuals are simply attracted to the same sex, rather than actually believing they are the opposite sex - they just get lumped into the same group.
The reason some are concerned here is because psychological diagnosis such as "transgender", just like other mental diagnosis by psychiatrists are a lot more shaky than medical diagnosis - many people diagnosed with a mental disorder for example, end up later being re-diagnosed by a different psychiatrist.
So a lot of people are concerned that such an irreversible procedure is granted given the high possibility for error, and the fact that it permanently alters the body and can't be reverse it the diagnosis was found to be wrong. Especially when even young teens can be given this diagnosis.
Again I believe some people are born with this condition - there is biological evidence showing that people and other animals can be born with a mixture of the traits of both sexes:
http://media.yourdailymedia.com/4/butterfly-5.jpg
But that doesn't mean anytime someone decides to change their sex it should be lauded by the media, not taking the possibility for error into account. Like it's the new "Michael Jackson" or something - I'm pretty sure it's not a laughing matter at all for people who go through it, let alone the ones who find out after the fact it was a big mistake.
Fair point. The pronoun game is a bit complex and frankly I don't really care enough for it to make a discussion out of it. Just use the name instead (or say something like "as Bruce"). It's a problem that can be overcome.
It's just important to not openly insist that "he is still Bruce" or "he is still a man" or stuff like that. That's just being mean.
Technically transgenders still have male chromosomes; even the bone structure is different between the sexes.
So "sex change" is really a misnomer for the surgery, since if they're legitimately transgender, it's not 'changing the sex', it's modifying to body to best match the sex of their brain structure.
So I think it's silly to say "he became a woman" - if he was transgender then he was born a woman (aka born with female brain structure"), just with the wrong physique right?
I think you need to go back and re-read my penis grafting post.
Also you need to re-read my post about gender being different from sex, and how gender was something that we INVENTED as a society.
It is different than martian. If you can't grasp why then you're beyond reach for discussion .
That statement actually contradicts modern science, and has its routes in Marxist think if I'm not mistaken.
There is outdated Marxist thought which was based on the idea that people were born a blank slate, and that differences in human behavior were simply the result of social conditioning (ex. "capitalist/patriarchial indoctrination, etc"). However modern evolutionary biology shows that the behavioral differences between the sexes are mostly innate and part of our genetic development. (To his credit Marx was born when evolutionary biology was still something new on the horizon, so it's not entirely his fault for being ignorant of it).
Similar to how a wolf and a Beagle have different innate behavioral traits (due to Wolves being a wild animal while Beagles having been bread to be pets over the course of many years) - the idea that if a wolf pup were taken out of the wild and raised as a pet, it'd be just as domesticated as a Beagle is of course false.
Plus the science behind transgender is based on the idea that transgendered individuals developed the brain structure of the sex opposite their body, so their gender identity is of course based on their genetic development - if it wasn't then "transgender" would be completely meaningless.
I think you are confusing sex with gender.
Her sex will always be male. Her gender is now female.
That's a pretty incorrect quotation.
If she's transgender, then her "gender" (brain structure) was already female - she developed female brain, but her body developed into the wrong sex.
Her sex (as in chromosomes) are male, regardless the sex she's legally recognized as is female.
So you're misquoting transgender science pretty badly. Here's some science showing the difference between the brain of transgendereds and why they identify as the opposite gender in the first place:
You're making gender out to be just "some whim" people have, when it's actually dependent on the genetic structure of the brain itself, hence the entire reason for the diagnosis to begin with:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.VXAS5fnF-So
Aye; and I think calling people "haters" probably sends the wrong signal about what kind of discussion you're looking for, if you're trying to have a mature one.
If you are, then great. Let's start:
All this really means is that you define the word "woman" to mean "anyone who says they feel like a woman," right? To other people, that word is based in biology, and not much is accomplished by simply talking past this discrepancy. I suspect this is a big part of people's objection: being told how to speak. Being told that a word means something else now, and if you don't fall in, you're a bigot.
But moving past the rhetoric, the heart of the matter is what we do when someone says they feel one way, but objective reality says they're not that way. Obviously, you've decided that in the case of gender, feeling trumps reality. So the obvious question is: why? And if feeling trumps reality in this situation, why not others?
There is actually science showing that the brain structure of transgenders resembles that of the sex they mentally identify with - I posted a link above for example, so this is the basis of transgenderism as a medical condition.
However brain scans themselves aren't actually required in individual diagnosis of transgendered people, just the observations of a psychologist or psychiatrist - this is what leaves me concerned.
The opinions of some of the other posters here though are incredibly misinformed - such as a few of them claiming that gender is entirely a "social construct" - which is aside from being untrue, is also contradictory to the notion of transgenderism being a "medical condition" to begin with.
Transgender isn't comparable to homosexuality, since homosexuals are simply attracted to the same sex, rather than actually believing they are the opposite sex - they just get lumped into the same group.
I never said a person who is transgendered is comparable to one who is homosexual. Unless that person who is transgendered is a homosexual. As for the group LGBT, they get placed into the same group because that 'group' is a sexuality and gender identity-based community. A community consisting of people who proudly are of what sexuality/ gender they tend to be, and those who accept each other.
I am the one who created this thread, therefore I obviously accept and respect Caitlyn Jenner's choice and lifestyle. To each their own. I don't judge.
I am glad though that this thread is getting the attention it is getting and people are discussing their own opinions and feelings towards this situation. It's interesting to know how people feel. But it's also interesting to find out who has little regard and respect for another human being. Whether it's on here or anywhere else for that matter.
This is my last post in this thread. I have given my all and said everything I need to say about this specific subject. I shall continue my usual and talk about movies and such.
90sace tells me I need to learn science bro. lol.
All because I say that jenner has undergone a gender transformation.
90sace tells me I need to learn science bro. lol.
All because I say that jenner has undergone a gender transformation.
Nope because you explained it wrong (I elaborated on it earlier in the thread)
The reason transgenders identify as the opposite gender is because their brain structure developed closer to that of the opposite sex, so yes the gender is dependent on the genetic structure of the brain, not just some whim as you seemed to be describing it (if it was then that would contradict the idea of trangenderism being a medical condition to begin with).
If I'm not mistaken the idea of gender being entirely "socially constructed" comes from outdated Marxist ideology, and it contradicts modern biological science..
I hate all of you equally :willem:
I am glad though that this thread is getting the attention it is getting and people are discussing their own opinions and feelings towards this situation. It's interesting to know how people feel. But it's also interesting to find out who has little regard and respect for another human being. Whether it's on here or anywhere else for that matter.
That's where you falter, since it sounds like you're equating being concerned with the risk of misdiagnosis regarding transgenderism as just "being a bigot" or "having no respect" for the people
It sounds like you only see two possiblities - people cheering this on as a "step forward in progress", or people just being hateful bigots - no other alternatives
gandalf26
06-04-15, 07:02 AM
who gives a ****?
That's where you falter, since it sounds like you're equating being concerned with the risk of misdiagnosis regarding transgenderism as just "being a bigot" or "having no respect" for the people
It sounds like you only see two possiblities - people cheering this on as a "step forward in progress", or people just being hateful bigots - no other alternatives
Tbh I completely agree with Aces last sentence. If jrs backed up his opinion rather than popping in from time to time to call all dissenters monsters I'd possibly think of things differently. Everytime he does that he's labelling people like Seanc who has tried to start a civilized discussion multiple times here.
That makes no sense. Accepting someone for who they are doesn't 'look like' anything. You just accept a person without any type of negative judgement.
This doesn't sound like something anyone can (or should) do in real life. The only way to not have any negative judgments about someone is to be completely apathetic towards them.
I think we've probably all had friends who, at one time or another, had to be called out on something. It can be anything from friendly advice to a full-scale intervention, but the only friends I've never had to disagree with or judge at all are the ones that weren't very good friends.
It's certainly a lot easier to shrug off anything that doesn't directly harm us, but I'm not sure it's more caring. It's pretty odd that modern thought has decided that only caring about things that directly harm you is a form of compassion--at any other point in history that'd be known as selfishness.
Sorry for the delay--was a bit busy. :)
What about someone who has particularly protruding ears who wants them pinned back? They aren't in any physical danger, but they might suffer enough psychologically that they choose to have this procedure done. And if people do choose this for their own peace of mind, who are we to judge them for that?
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "judge." If you mean judge them as an entire person, then we have no right. If you mean "judge" in the sense of "have a negative opinion about," then we all have that right, and people exercising that right in aggregate is pretty much the definition of culture and society, and is a necessary buffer of interaction before we get up against hard things like law.
I don't think that it's unreasonable to question people have dozens of cosmetic surgeries at all. And I do think there are people who think surgery will fix all their problems when it won't. But on the other hand there are plenty of cosmetic procedures that are easier to get done without a tenth of the psychological assessment that accompanies gender reassignment and nobody bats a botoxed eyelid at those.
Quite true, though most of those surgeries are far less potentially traumatic and irreversible than changing one's sex.
Either way, we've established that it's reasonable to question the degree to which people alter themselves. So what's the limiting principle? Why is it okay to question one type but not another?
My question about body identity disorder wasn't rhetorical: I really want to know what people think the difference is.
Ladies and transgentlemen I have an announcement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xC77VC_ujM
Even if he feels like a girl, he doesn't have to make it so dramatic, because no matter what he does, he still is Bruce. You can't just stop being who you are. You can make changes yes, but as a person, your history doesn't just evaporate and go away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CoIHZ4JdOM
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