View Full Version : Top 10 Boxers (IMO)
I doubt this will attract many members, but over the last 2-3 years i've been pretty much obsessively reading Boxing History books, old Newspaper articles/decisions and Boxers from the 1890s until now opinions on their peers and the fighters that came before and after.
To do something like this justice i feel that the fighters with no or very little footage available deserve the benifit of the doubt of what their record says and what their peers had to say about them. If not i feel a 1960s-present list is the what should be presented.
10.Bob Fitzsimmons 63-8-4 (KO-59)
http://i68.tinypic.com/28tcpbt.jpg
Out of the ten listed here, he's the second hardest to judge; there is a very small amount of footage available from him and that is from the 1890s/1900s. Still when you look over his accomplishments, and the descriptions of his style and dominance it's tough not to include him in a top 10.
When Fitzsimmons was coming up, Nonpareil Jack Dempsey was thought of as not just the best in the world but the best Boxing had ever seen, NJD retired in their 1891 fight just 13 rounds in during a time when a 50 round fight would seem normal.
Clearly Fitz was the first P4P fighter, after taking the Middleweight title from NJD in 1891 he followed it up by knocking James.J.Corbett out 6 year years later also rated as the best fighter on the planet by most sources at the time, well over 100 years later noone else has been Middleweight and Heavyweight World Champion. Still Fitz was still not finished, since he fought George Gardner to a 20 Round Decision victory for the Light Heavyweight title another 6 years later in 1903 making him the first 3 Division World Champion, and a good 12 years after his first World title victory; during a time when world title fights were scarce some going over a year witout a defence.
Not to be repetitive but the guy was still not finished, he later fought the legendary Philadelphia Jack O'Brien twice in 18 months , first knocking him out in 6 then retiring himself after 13 of the second fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5clfV1gZV0A&app=desktop
9.Joe Louis 66-3 (52 KO's)
http://i64.tinypic.com/2rf8ww7.jpg
Joe was as high as 4 at one point, but the more i learnt about the other fighters as well as Joe the further down he went. More proof that Education is an A55hole, because Joe is by far my favourite of the 10 :p . Second favourite fighter of all time to be specific behind only Pernell Whitaker, and slightly ahead of same part of Glasgow born Flyweight Champ Benny Lynch ;) .
Still while noone looks as good on film as Benny Lynch (and i'm serious) i largely agree with the consensus that Joe was the greatest puncher of all time. The only reason he fell was his baffling stuggles with much smaller Heavyweights, and the true but heavily exagerrated "bum of the month" conundrum. Also one of the fighters who beat him may or may not be appearing soon, and it's definitely not Rocky Marciano.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3PpR12yaRs&app=desktop
I've added videos to the end of both posts if anyone is interested. I'm using a Tablet so it's came up as Mobile links at the end of each post, instead of videos posted onto the page.
christine
03-18-15, 03:12 AM
Nice thread Camo. I grew up watching the fights on tv as my dad was a boxing fan.
Nice thread Camo. I grew up watching the fights on tv as my dad was a boxing fan.
Thanks Christine. I was waiting for you JJ, Tacitus and Samoan Lawyer.
It being only a top 10, most of the great British fighters like Jimmy Wilde and Kid Berg will miss out sadly, but it's something i'd like to keep as an expanding project; hopefully until i have a top 100 so i can include Benny Lynch ;) .
Still Bob Fitzsimmons is the British fighter, even though he was born in New Zealand and fought in NZ, Australia and the US more than he did in the UK. :D
8.Roberto Duran 103-15 (70 KO'S)
http://i65.tinypic.com/5edd95.jpg
I'm sure most will know who i'm talking about when i say there is a fighter higher on this list who has a slight claim for fighter of the 70s. Still it's exactly that a slight claim, Duran ruled the 70s and he personally goes toe to toe with the two closest fighters to making this list Joe Gans and Benny Leonard as the greatest ever Lightweight. Duran fought in 5 different Decades something that in itself is a massive achievment, when you realize that 3 of those Decades were spent fighting World Champions often at weights he had no business competing in....
His 70s record is legendary, his only loss from his debut in 1968 to the 80s was to Esteban De Jesus, a loss that he brutally avenged with an 11th round stoppage 2 years later, and a second time later on in the 12th round. At the end of the 70s his record was 69-1, with such scapls as the aforementioned De Jesus, Ken Buchanan, Franc Munoz, Vireutx2, Palamino and Ishimatsu.
Following this was the crazy 80s where Duran was somehow ranked among the Fab 4. Still despite Duran being a Natural Lightweight, compared to the Natural Welterweight Ray Leonard and arguably weight-cutting welterweight Tommy Hearns, and the Natural Middleweight Marvin Hagler. Duran managed the only fab 4 win against Ray Leonard in somewhat emphatic fashion, as well as a great showing against Marvin Hagler, while clearly a win for Marvelous the much older and two (now 4) weight jumping Duran showed his boxing prowess way past his prime.
Just too sound like a parrot and so this becomes a running joke here, Duran wasn't done yet. He followed up by defeating Iran Barkley who had just tore Tommy Hearns apart, for the Middleweight title. Whatever you have to say about that victory, you have to remember that Hearns would later beat a fighter of Virgil Hills capabilities; and yes that was prime Virgil Hill ;) .
Just to talk like a bitter old (young) man, i don't think i'll ever live through a talent like Duran again, but that's ok since i'm not sure anyone else has anything to compare him to.
NO MAS!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0g8-KVp06s&app=desktop
the samoan lawyer
03-18-15, 09:46 AM
Brilliant thread Camo. Really interesting reading about the old-timers, especially Fitzsimmons, he's someone I know of but not really too much about. Its a shame that there is not more footage of fighters in those times, some of their battles sound absolutely epic.
Duran and Louis would feature in my top 10 also and I totally agree, we'll never see another Duran, or in fact his competition of the 70's. I'm gutted I missed out in experiencing those times.
Looking forward to seeing who's all coming up in your list.
Brilliant thread Camo. Really interesting reading about the old-timers, especially Fitzsimmons, he's someone I know of but not really too much about. Its a shame that there is not more footage of fighters in those times, some of their battles sound absolutely epic.
Duran and Louis would feature in my top 10 also and I totally agree, we'll never see another Duran, or in fact his competition of the 70's. I'm gutted I missed out in experiencing those times.
Looking forward to seeing who's all coming up in your list.
Thanks SL. :)
For the record it was a 4 way fight for the 10th place, between Fitz, Joe Gans, Benny Leonard and Archie Moore. In the end though, i had to give Fitz the benifit of the doubt like i said in the introduction. There's not enough footage to truly know how good he or his competition was, but he did all he possibly could. Not many if any have beaten the two best fighters in the world 6 years apart in Title bouts, and noone has went from Middleweight Champ to Heavyweight champ. Throw in his victory against a prime Philadelphia Jack O'Brien who would more than likely make a top 100 at the end of his career, and his Light Heavyweight Title and it was impossible not to include him.
the samoan lawyer
03-19-15, 10:05 AM
Thanks SL. :)
For the record it was a 4 way fight for the 10th place, between Fitz, Joe Gans, Benny Leonard and Archie Moore. In the end though, i had to give Fitz the benifit of the doubt like i said in the introduction. There's not enough footage to truly know how good he or his competition was, but he did all he possibly could. Not many if any have beaten the two best fighters in the world 6 years apart in Title bouts, and noone has went from Middleweight Champ to Heavyweight champ. Throw in his victory against a prime Philadelphia Jack O'Brien who would more than likely make a top 100 at the end of his career, and his Light Heavyweight Title and it was impossible not to include him.
I was banking on Archie Moore being on this list too!!
Others i'm predicting we may see included, Rocky Marciano, Willie Pep, Hagler/Hearns (although very doubtful), Henry Armstrong, Pernell Whitaker, Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Carlos Monzon, Sugar Ray Robinson/Leonard and i've just realised the amount ive just listed.
Who's next??
The Sci-Fi Slob
03-19-15, 10:20 AM
Don't forget to include Audley Harrison.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/f2eee64b473bde253ba08f7227076edb1464b244.jpg
I was banking on Archie Moore being on this list too!!
Others i'm predicting we may see included, Rocky Marciano, Willie Pep, Hagler/Hearns (although very doubtful), Henry Armstrong, Pernell Whitaker, Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Carlos Monzon, Sugar Ray Robinson/Leonard and i've just realised the amount ive just listed.
Who's next??
Some you said will make it, some wont of course. The only one i'll mention right now is Rocky Marciano, not to say he wasn't great but he'd struggle to make my top 50. Personally i think he is one of the most overrated fighters of all time, if you want me to expand on that i will.
Don't forget to include Audley Harrison.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/f2eee64b473bde253ba08f7227076edb1464b244.jpg
As if i'd forget Audley :coleman: . He's third behind Butterbean and Freddie Flintoff ;) .
7.Willie Pep (229-11-1)
http://i65.tinypic.com/263hoi1.jpg
Quite possibly the most talented fighter of all time, and my pick for the greatest ever featherweight and defensive boxer. If this was purely based on record i'd look ridiculous picking anyone but Pep as #1, and for good reason. Since Pep people have been rightfully fascinated with undefeated record a few examples being, Larry Holmes 48-0 before Spinks, Rocky Marcianos 49-0 career record (which i disagree with) and Floyds current 47-0. In over 200 fights which was alot even for his time Pep lost just 11 times. At one point he was 62-0 before his first defeat to one of his toughest opponents in Sammy Angott, following this Pep went on an unbelievable streak that saw him draw just onced between then and a plane crash he suffered in January of 47.
Pep was seriously injured in said crash, but was determined to make a comeback, showing the heart that imo he lacked later in his career. This was before he met his conquerer in Sandy Saddler going into their first fight Pep had the unbelievable record of 133-1-1, but Saddler who was known and still is as one of the most vicious fighters in history; didn't just win but made Pep quit. Willie's best win is usually seen as his rematch with Saddler, but he lost another twice after to Sandy another one of which he quit during, of the whole top 10 i don't think there is a fighter that was beat into submission as much as Willie against Saddler.
In the end a top 10 without Pep is impossible imo, but i still feel like he is the one fighter i could easily argue against having a spot here. His pros are his incredible record in nearly 250 fights, which includes quite possibly the 2 greatest undefeated streaks in Boxing History, as well as his talent as a fighter. Something that is incredibly noticibale since we have a decent amount of footage of Pep compared to some others. His cons are that other than the Heavyweights who of course couldn't go any further, he didn't try to go up in weight and that his greatest opponet - Sandy Saddler who would make my top 20 went 3-1 against him and forced him to quit twice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a_wt60Wn9M
6.Ezzard Charles (93-25-1)
http://i64.tinypic.com/16krv53.jpg
Ezzards place in Boxing History has been constantly corrupted. At one point Ezzard was World Heavyweight Champion, so looking from the outside in he comes across as either a decent Heavyweight champ or a heavily overrated fighter. Truthfully he was the greatest Light Heavyweight of all time, who became a Heavyweight Champ past his prime.
Charles never won the LHW Belt simply because he didn't get a shot at it, but he destroyed the competition in the toughest ever LHW division and imo top 3 Division of all time; along with a different HW and Middleweight Division.Samoan Lawyer rightfully thought Archie Moore would turn up in this top 10, mostly because he was possibly the best Champion (LHW) of all time. Still Ezzard Charles destroyed the competition before he was 23, which included Archie 3 times, i'll list some of his other scalps but his non title wins over Moore are baffling especially since Charles didn't just win he beat the prime Archie into a shivering wreck; later Archie would show such performances that he was my #11, still Charles beat him so bad that he felt disillusioned with Boxing and was close to giving up before he became the standard for, people like Bernard Hopkins.
Now as well as Moore, Charles beat Joe Louis x 2, Teddy Yarosz , Charley Burley x2, Joey Maxim x5, Lloyd Marshall x2, Jimmy Bivins x4, Sam Baroudi, Jersey Joe Walcott x2.
Having plenty of footage for Charles and the position i gave him, i still feel that i may somewhat underrate him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENjJBizFnb4
jiraffejustin
03-23-15, 03:35 AM
Cool thread Camo, I think you should do a thread for your favorite fighters after this.
Cool thread Camo, I think you should do a thread for your favorite fighters after this.
Thanks JJ, the reason i was doing this was so i could expand it to a top 50-100; and have a decent write up for each member of the top 10. My top 10 favourites would be something like this:
1.Pernell Whitaker
2.Joe Louis
3.Benny Lynch
4.Nonito Donaire
5.Eric Morales
6.Roberto Duran
7.Wilfredo Gomez
8.Juan Manuel Marquez
9.Larry Holmes
10.Marvin Hagler
There is a certain upcoming fighter that doesn't really count in my top 10 Boxers since he's also my favourite Sportsman, and quite possibly human ;) .
christine
03-23-15, 03:56 AM
Love the write ups Camo, really interesting. Thanks :)
Love the write ups Camo, really interesting. Thanks :)
Thanks for following it Christine :)
the samoan lawyer
03-26-15, 11:22 AM
I totally forgot about Ezzard, that's a great shout. Also, go ahead with your thoughts on Marciano, not that i disagree but would like to hear them. I didn't realise you were such a fan of Donaire Camo? Sad to see his demise, he was such a talent not so long ago.
Also, would love to hear your thoughts on Edwin Valero. Such a wasted and ultimately tragic talent.
Who's next?
I totally forgot about Ezzard, that's a great shout. Also, go ahead with your thoughts on Marciano, not that i disagree but would like to hear them. I didn't realise you were such a fan of Donaire Camo? Sad to see his demise, he was such a talent not so long ago.
Also, would love to hear your thoughts on Edwin Valero. Such a wasted and ultimately tragic talent.
Who's next?
Donaire is such a major favourite of mine because he's the only top fighter i truly feel i discovered on my own, and since i've followed him throughout everything. i'm still not exactly sure when i discovered Donaire, i just remember that he really impressed me on an undercard i watched, and after looking him up at the time he wasn't a major contentender or really talked about as much as some other (later) flops in his division. It almost felt like i had insider information when he became as big as he did imo one of the top fighters of his generation. His loss to Rigondeaux really didn't bother me too much, for one imo Rigo is one of the most talented boxers today and of all time if you factor in his stellar Amateur Career, also Rigo along with Donaire and GGG are my three favourite active boxers. Who are your favourite active boxers SL?
I was surprised that noone wondered why Morales is my favorite of the three Mexicans (Barerra, Morales and Marquez).
First of all Marciano was a fantastic boxer, solid as they come, one of the harderst punchers of all time, and many more cliches :p . He would make my 100 and would be very close to my 50, also he'd make a top 10 Heavyweights list.
First of all what i'd like to say in regards to Marciano is that i think i've done my best with every fighter i considered, to take everything i could in to account about them. Marciano is such an enduring favourite, that even though not that many will be interested in this thread some will have arguments for him that i either didn't consider, wasn't aware of or i have an argument against. If there is any i'd truly like to read and discuss it with you here.
Marciano as an elite fighter is something i wouldn't argue against, i personally think he was a solid fighter who had a tendency for catching people off guard then dictating the rhythm of the fight which in itself shows immense talent. This was of course the case in his more straightforward bouts but like every fighter he had his problems. Which brings me to my main problem, alot of his rep is based on the fact that he was undefeated but i personally disagree with that being the case. There are more than one close fights involving Marciano that could've went either way, but the one that sticks out for me is the first Roland La Starza fight which went to Rocky in a controversial Split Decion, imo La Starza deserved the victory. Granted as most of his fans point out Rocky destroyed La Starza in the rematch, but the question is not who was the better fighter if it was Rocky would be my pick easily. It's who won and imo it was Roland. The only reason it's a major point of contention is that a 48-1 record would mess up alot of Rockys worth imo, which i'll explain in the next paragraph hopefully.
While no fault of Marcianos he found himself in one of the weakest HW divisions in history, if not the weakest. Also depending on who you believe he may have avoided Floyd Patterson at all costs. Now his scalps imo are: Jersey Joe x2, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charlesx2 and Archie Moore. All are legendary names but they all have question marks!
Starting with Jersey Joe, the only reason i included him in Ezzards scalps was because i had a feeling Marciano would be brought up, if you look at Jersey he had lost 7 of his 17 previous fights; he'd lost all of his edge as a battling journeyman and many still give Joe a victory against Rocky. Personally i score both to Rocky but not by as much as you'd expect.
Next is Ezzard who is without a doubt Rockys two greatest victories. I've heard alot of stories about Ezzard killing someone (in a fight) having a major effect on him so he wasn't as agrresive and blah blah... Rocky outfought him simple as, i don't think Charles was in his prime and he was of course not fighting at his ideal weight, but anyone disagreeing with those two victories are just actively searching for reasons for going against him.
Now to finish with Moore and Louis, both were WAY past their prime.
Also for anyone who cares I'll be posting #5 a bit later. It's someone I doubt many would guess, any ideas?
5.Sam Langford (179-30-39)
http://i66.tinypic.com/260xxsk.jpg
Sam Langford was easily my favourite fighter to learn about. I was under the mistaken impression that he was this big brutal Heavyweight. Now at certain times during his career he was exactly that, but when you realize how far he'd came it's pretty clear that he was the true Pound for Pound king.
Sam actually started as a Lightweight!! This was when there was only 8 divisions in boxing, and without getting ahead of ourselves here that would be the equivalent of a modern fighter jumping 8 divisions then becoming the best fighter in that 9th weight class. From the start he was fighting impressive fighters like Young Griffo and Jack Blackburn, usually to long fought victories or draws, before he'd obtained the weapons that would make him quite possibly the most feared fighter in history. These impressive bouts lead to his only Title fight, at Welter against Joe Walcott (not jersey), in another hard fought draw it's hard to tell how this fight went exactly from conflicting sources and no footage, but I haven't came across any that scored it as a loss for Sam.
http://i68.tinypic.com/2agqp3c.jpg
Over the next two years he fought constantly always against the top fighters since they brought in just enough money for him to survive, in 1906 he'd fight the most important and damaging fight of his career even though he had no idea at the time. He lost over 15 to future World Heavyweight Champ Jack Johnson for the Coloured Heavyweight title. Johnson of course won easily but he also weighed almost 30lbs more, which is roughly the weight from Middleweight to Super Feather/Jr.Lightweight now.
This loss would heavily effect Sams later Title chances, since Jack could always fall back on this victory. Now without stopping at every significant fight Sam was involved in, the next Important part of his career was going hal-blind then fully a bit later. No doubt it's an unfortunate event, but IMO it truly cements his legacy, since during this he didn't just plod along but still managed to show he was among the best in the world whether he had two, one or no working eyes. Included in his blind showings was a stunning victory over Tiger Flowers and his famous showing against his toughest opponent Harry Wills when he nearly knocked him out more than once.
I decided to cut this short, since there is so much to Sams story. Overall he was a true legend to go from Lightweight to Heavyweight, then be the most feared Heavyweight by far is unbelievable. Many had a lot to say about Sam, upon his retirement most said he was the greatest of all time, and still today he is seen as the greatest to never hold a title. One of Sam's most regular and toughest opponents Harry Wills Is well known for regularly being avoided by HW Champ Jack Dempsey; something he vehemently denied. Yet this is what Jack had to say about Sam: "There was one man...I wouldn’t fight because I knew he would flatten me. I was afraid of Sam Langford.” :cool:
Some of Sams scalps:
Harry Wills x11, Sam Mcvea x9, Jim Johnson x9, Joe Jeanette x10, Tiger Flowers, many more.
the samoan lawyer
04-16-15, 09:40 AM
Hey Camo, sorry ive not been around here much so ive not got a chance to respond here. Even now I dont really have that much time to comment. Another great choice with Langford. Im not going to pretend to know much about him because I really dont but I have read bits and pieces and indeed, the articles are usually concerning p4p champs so well done Camo, you really know your stuff.
Regarding your question about my favourite boxers, I really struggle to answer that. Same as my favourite films, I can never narrow them down. Boxers today i would go with Cotto, GGG, Floyd,, Canelo, Thurman, Beterbiev, Roman Gonzalez, Carl Frampton only lives a few miles away from me, also sluggers, I love watching sluggers like Maidana, Provodnikov, Matthyse,Kirkland Salido etc.
Basically i watch almost every bit of boxing that is on tv. Looking forward to the Terence Crawford fight and obviously Provo v Matty. Could be a barnburner.
Hey Camo, sorry ive not been around here much so ive not got a chance to respond here. Even now I dont really have that much time to comment. Another great choice with Langford. Im not going to pretend to know much about him because I really dont but I have read bits and pieces and indeed, the articles are usually concerning p4p champs so well done Camo, you really know your stuff.
Regarding your question about my favourite boxers, I really struggle to answer that. Same as my favourite films, I can never narrow them down. Boxers today i would go with Cotto, GGG, Floyd,, Canelo, Thurman, Beterbiev, Roman Gonzalez, Carl Frampton only lives a few miles away from me, also sluggers, I love watching sluggers like Maidana, Provodnikov, Matthyse,Kirkland Salido etc.
Basically i watch almost every bit of boxing that is on tv. Looking forward to the Terence Crawford fight and obviously Provo v Matty. Could be a barnburner.
Thanks a lot SL for both following this and for your comments :) . Some really great fighters there, Floyd, Gonzales, Provo and Matthyse would make my current top 10. I also loved Cotto at one point, but think he's lost it now unfortunately.
Not sure if you noticed it but I gave my reasons for Marciano missing my top 50 on the last page, i'm only saying because my Sam Langford post bumped to the next page and I don't want you to think I was ignoring you ;) .
Also I finished my Langford post if anyone is interested :)
4.Henry Armstrong (151-21-9)
http://i68.tinypic.com/2qsmaee.jpg
So many of these I start off with I wish there was more footage, with Henry I feel that Joe Louis was (more footage) just watching him as a heavyweight. That may sound like an insult to Louis, but I mean it as a compliment to both. Armstrong's, short punch at close range while moving his frame in the simplest directions worked for both in different ways. Louis had the power behind his punches, but despite his reign the bum of the months and problems with smaller fighters who had an easier time confronting said style shows who the real master was.
Quite simply Armstrong was an innovator, at the very least he perfected certain styles that previous fighters had dabbled in. If there is a father of modern boxing, or post bareknuckle boxing, it is without a doubt Armstrong. Treat yourself watch some Armstrong footage, more often than not he is described as a boring fighter. Do me a favour watch some then tell me three things, does Armstrong not look like (at least among) the most tricky/annoying boxer to ever fight? Was (prime) Joe Louis (style) not just Armstrong at HW? Assuming you had a choice and you have seen a decent amount of all three, who would you go see Armstrong, Leonard or Dempsey?
http://i63.tinypic.com/29mnfck.jpg
Anyway talking about all of that without touching any of his fights, shows just how great he was. Still just like I don't think Oscar Robertsons most impressive achievement was averaging a triple double in a season, I don't think Henry holding three titles at one time was his most impressive. He barely held them for a month, at the time it was more he holds two give him a shot at the third.
I'll edit the rest in tomorrow, like last time.
christine
04-22-15, 03:16 AM
I don't know enough about boxing to be second guessing your picks Camo, but it's making really interesting reading . I didn't know about most of these guys before now you're bringing them to life. I've just watched some footage of Armstrong on YouTube, so I'll wait till your write up later, but what a life he had!
Miss Vicky
04-22-15, 03:21 AM
This list is only ten items long but you've still not finished after more than a month?
Why does this not surprise me? :laugh:
This list is only ten items long but you've still not finished after more than a month?
Why does this not surprise me? :laugh:
Probably because noone invited you here you big bully! :D
jiraffejustin
04-22-15, 03:44 AM
Did you watch the Terrence Crawford/Tomas Dolorme and Mathysse/Ruslan Provodnikov fights from the other day, Camo?
I'd be interested in another list like this one where you break down your favorite fights
I don't know enough about boxing to be second guessing your picks Camo, but it's making really interesting reading . I didn't know about most of these guys before now you're bringing them to life. I've just watched some footage of Armstrong on YouTube, so I'll wait till your write up later, but what a life he had!
Glad to see you checked Armstrong out, more than anything that's what i'm hoping for! I'll finish Henrys part soon. Also if you haven't already watch some Benny Lynch, if you have watch him some more :p
Did you watch the Terrence Crawford/Tomas Dolorme and Mathysse/Ruslan Provodnikov fights from the other day, Camo?
I'd be interested in another list like this one where you break down your favorite fights
Nah JJ, but three of those are among my current favourites and one i've never heard of wonder if you can work that one out. ;)
I've been thinking of doing something similar to that, it was actually a top 20 of the 21st Century so far.
jiraffejustin
04-22-15, 04:03 AM
Nah JJ, but three of those are among my current favourites and one i've never heard of wonder if you can work that one out. ;)
I've been thinking of doing something similar to that, it was actually a top 20 of the 21st Century so far.
I am going to guess it was the one that got knocked out :D
Yeah, I'd watch those fights if you got the chance. They are both entertaining in their own way. The Crawford fight because you get to watch Crawford put on a boxing clinic, letting Dolorme gain confidence by purposefully dropping the early rounds to him to get his timing and by making him think Crawford didn't have any punching power. Then in round 4(5?) Crawford turned it on and finished seemingly with ease.
The Provodnikov and Mathysse fight was kind of what you expect. Not as thrilling as you would probably hope though, but that's most likely because of an accidental headbutt leading to a really nasty cut above Ruslan's left eye early on (I want to say round 2.) Ruslan's my favorite current fighter because of the type of performance he put on in that fight, he never quit and just keeps coming forward. He certainly has his shortcomings, he plays defense like NBA teams of the mid-80s (he doesn't,) but he makes up for it by having an iron chin. He takes his beating and though bleeding like crazy he never comes close to being stopped, and damn near takes the fight despite being down huge early on. In fact, he buckled Mathysse in the 11th and if he would have been able to capitalize on it by putting him down he would have finished with at least a draw.
the samoan lawyer
04-22-15, 06:25 AM
Another great choice in Armstrong Camo!! I remember asking Wayne McCullough aka the pocket rocket who is favourite fighter was and that was his pick. A true legend of the sport and most certainly one of the best of all time.
Re the weekend fights. Matty v Provo was a decent scrap but as jj said it didn't really live up to its enormously high expectations. Both fighters have t be admired though. Both took pretty huge hits and showed no signs of backing down. Was good to see Matty get back after defeat to Garcia who seems to be on the decline since that fight. Shane that provodkin lost but someone had to. He's got the heart of a lion and a granite chin, even if he does cut easy.
Crawford seems to get better every fight and it's a real joy to watch. Very close to p4p imo. Also a note on Chavez jr, I was pretty shocked by the result because I never really rated fonfara apart from the Stevenson fight, I guess that scuppers a fight from Froch.
Anyway, looking forward to seeing who's up next.
christine
05-02-15, 06:40 AM
Glad to see you checked Armstrong out, more than anything that's what i'm hoping for! I'll finish Henrys part soon. Also if you haven't already watch some Benny Lynch, if you have watch him some more :p
Finally got round to watching the little 3 part docu on Benny Lynch that's on youtube. A great boxer and an all round generous guy, but an excess of money and celebrity was his downfall like a lot of working class sportsmen from back then. Sad he died so young. He looked like one of those really sparky entertaining fighters. Interesting in that docu to see Norman Wisdom, the last person I would've thought of to appear but thinking about it Norman was extremely athletic and he was a boxer when he was young too. Could've been a missed opportunity for a film. I don't see Robert Carlyle's film talked about anywhere.
Camo - thanks for talking about Benny Lynch, I liked reading up about him. I wonder who is next!
Finally got round to watching the little 3 part docu on Benny Lynch that's on youtube. A great boxer and an all round generous guy, but an excess of money and celebrity was his downfall like a lot of working class sportsmen from back then. Sad he died so young. He looked like one of those really sparky entertaining fighters. Interesting in that docu to see Norman Wisdom, the last person I would've thought of to appear but thinking about it Norman was extremely athletic and he was a boxer when he was young too. Could've been a missed opportunity for a film. I don't see Robert Carlyle's film talked about anywhere.
Camo - thanks for talking about Benny Lynch, I liked reading up about him. I wonder who is next!
So glad you looked into him Christine! I also grew up in The Gorbals, so Benny was drilled into our heads in school or just in general. The guy was a legend one of the great Glaswegians without a doubt. As you said its too bad he died so young/became an alcoholic. On the little footage we have of him he truly looks phenomenal, of course I'm biased but I think if he didn't have those problems he'd possibly be the greatest British Boxer.
I'll finish the Armstrong part and add #3 either tomorrow or Monday.
the samoan lawyer
05-02-15, 08:24 PM
So glad you looked into him Christine! I also grew up in The Gorbals, so Benny was drilled into our heads in school or just in general. The guy was a legend one of the great Glaswegians without a doubt. As you said its too bad he died so young/became an alcoholic. On the little footage we have of him he truly looks phenomenal, of course I'm biased but I think if he didn't have those problems he'd possibly be the greatest British Boxer.
I'll finish the Armstrong part and add #3 either tomorrow or Monday.
I had a bottle of Buckfast in The Gorbals a few years ago!!
christine
05-03-15, 07:21 AM
Buckie! I had some of that at it's home in Buckfast Abbey. It's disgusting :sick::laugh:
the samoan lawyer
05-05-15, 09:26 AM
Buckie! I had some of that at it's home in Buckfast Abbey. It's disgusting :sick::laugh:
Blasphemy!!
jiraffejustin
05-14-15, 05:06 AM
At Camo's request, here's a re-post of one I made in the general boxing thread about the Fab Four.
Fab Four in the 80s
1980
Fab Four Fighter of the Year: Thomas Hearns
Fab Four Fight of the Year: Sugar Ray Leonard vs Roberto Duran I
Roberto Duran: 3-1, 2 KO
Marvin Hagler: 4-0, 3 KO
Thomas Hearns: 6-0, 6 KO (2 first round KO)
Sugar Ray Leonard: 2-1, 2 KO
After watching all of the fights involving the Fab Four guys in the first year of the 80s (except the first round KO of Eddie Gazo by Hitman Hearns, which I couldn't find,) those are the "awards" I'd give out. Not many exciting fights, but that's because most of them were just squash matches with these guys on the way up. The only two competitive and exciting fights were the Leonard/Duran bouts, the only two fights where both fighters were members of the Fabulous Four. Both really exciting action fights that were split, with the first one Duran getting the better of Leonard when Leonard questionably decided to brawl with Duran. The second fight became one of the most talked about events in boxing history when Roberto Duran just quit in the middle of the fight after being frustrated by Sugar Ray Leonard's antics and defensive abilities.
Thomas Hearns would have to be the Fab Four fighter of the year due to his busy schedule and dominating performances, knocking out all of his opponents and averaging a fight every two months in the year. He eventually knocked out Pipino Cuevas in devestating fashion to win the WBA Welterweight Championship. Had Duran won the second Leonard fight, or Leonard the first then either one of those fellows would have been my fighter of the year.
The two Duran/Leonard fights were by far the most exciting to watch, but Thomas Hearns was probably the individual boxer I had the most fun watching. With his big frame and power punches, he was a welterweight nightmare.
Marvin Hagler also had an impressive year that he capped off by winning WBA & WBC Middleweight Titles against Englishman Alan Minter in Wembley Arena. He busted Minter's face up causing four cuts that needed 15 stitches to seal, but the crowd wasn't happy about the referee's stoppage. They proceeded to sling bottles and other assorted items into the ring at Hagler, he didn't have time to celebrate his victory or be awarded his belts until a later date.
Thanks JJ. Great analysis of the Fab 4.
jiraffejustin
05-14-15, 05:17 AM
Don't know when they will be ready, but I'll be doing one of those little posts for each year of the 80s. I can't wait till I get around to 85, I am ready for that rewatch of The War.
christine
07-13-15, 06:27 PM
Camo , you never finished your list!
Miss Vicky
07-13-15, 06:44 PM
Camo , you never finished your list!
That's no surprise. :laugh:
christine
07-17-15, 04:30 PM
:D
Decided to update this since I promised Christine I would last weekend and forgot about it, sorry Christine. This is going to be a very lengthy write up and my internet has been going very slow over the past few weeks. I really don't want to get near the end of this then my internet cuts out so I've decided to do it in two parts.
3.Muhammad Ali - 56-5 (37 KOS) Part 1
http://i68.tinypic.com/2d5glx.jpg
Ali is by far my favourite boxer, sportsman and among my favourite human beings in general. It pains me to have him any lower than #1 but I tried my hardest to be as unbiased as possible so he landed at #3. Maybe I'm still overrating him a bit as some of the already featured fighters possibly had better careers. By now I'm sure most are aware of the political aspect of his career, Vietnam, etc. So I won't be delving into that unless it is necessary. It largely doesn't affect him as a fighter other than one crucial thing that I'll mention later.
Ali's career kicked off against Tunney Hunsaker in October 1960. First I thought I'd give a brief look at his early years. Born Cassius Clay in 1942 Louisville, Kentucky, his introduction to boxing is now a well known story. The 12 year old Clay was convinced to take up the gloves by his first trainer, a local policeman after his bike had been stole he declared he'd 'whip' the thieves, showing his confidence was always present. Ali had nothing less than a stellar Amateur career, winning two National golden gloves as well as the Olympic gold at LHW in Rome, 1960' before turning pro. With a 100-5 amateur record.
To me his first 19 fights were the road to Liston, still there were plenty of interesting pitstops on that road. His first 10 fights were not too important, mostly fighting B fighters of varying degrees of skill to go 10-0 with 9 kos. Madison Square Garden was the scene of his first major bout taking on Sonny 'KO' Banks. This is important for two reasons, firstly it was Ali's first round declaration he predicted a victory in the fourth round and followed through with his bold claim. The other is that Sonny was the first to knock Ali down, with a flush jab in the second round. Sadly Sonny would later die from injuries after a fight a bit later at just 24, while nothing to do with Ali I felt it was important to bring him up since a much more famous knockdown before he became champ usually overshadows him. That prediction was followed later by another correct of knocking Alejandro Lavorante in 5. Still he was incorrect as well in 1962 with his prediction of beating George Logan in five. He bet him a round early later explaining "I had to. He refused to shake my hand at the opening bell". :D
http://i68.tinypic.com/2lwaiyw.jpg
Following Lavorante was his fight against the great Archie Moore. Archie had earlier been Ali's trainer before he left for Angelo Dundee, various reasons have been cited for this including Moore tried to change his style and Ali refused to follow Moore's regime, personally I think it was most likely a mixture of both but it doesn't really matter. By this point the legendary Moore was WAY past it, 46 years old having been a pro for an astonishing 28 years as well as not being at his optimal Light Heavyweight. Being his 218th and penultimate fight I've of course not included this as one of Ali's great fights, but rather as an ode to an all time great who would've been my #11. Ali was correct in his prediction of a win in four, but Moore was clearly not intimidated, in on of my favorite exchanges in boxing history.
Ali - Why Doesn't Somebody just get that old guy a pension; why doesn't somebody just retire him? When you come to the fight don't block the door cause you'll all go home after round four.
Moore - The only way I'll fall in four is by toppling over Clays prostrate form. Clay can go with speed in all directions, including straight down if hit properly. I have a good solid right hand that will fit nicely on his chops.
Before Alias fight with Liston he took on Englishman Henry Cooper at Wembley Stadium. A well known fight here in the UK, Cooper was clearly the toughest opposition Ali had faced since Moore was pas it. Cooper possibly came closest to knocking Ali out outside of the people who did. Catching him with his trademark left hook at the end of the fourth. Shamefully it has since came out that Dundee delibaretely tore Alias glove to by more resting time. No doubt this made the difference since he regained his composure and finished cooper the next round, a dark time in his career. Nevertheless it was his biggest victory so far, while bringing up more troubling questions about his chin.
I was going to post this in that write up but got paranoid about my internet cutting out losing what I had written. It is taken from a book I own, personally I find it very interesting. It was during an interview shortly after his victory against Liston, he was asked about his round predictions and he used the Moore fight to demonstrate that he wasn't just picking random rounds then trying to make it come true, rather he had figured out when he could finish someone if everything went right. I also think he slips out of his boxing-persona here a bit, and shows some respect to Archie Moore.
"I ain't missed but twice. If you figure out the man you're up against, and you know what you can do, then you can pretty much do it whenever you get ready. Once I call the round, I plan what I'm going to do in the fight. Like, you take Archie Moore. He's a better fighter than Sonny Liston. He's harder to hit, the way he bobs and weaves, and yes smart. You get careless and hell drop you. I guess he knows more tricks in the ring than anybody but Sugar Ray. But he was fa and forty five, and he had to be looking for a lucky punch before he got tired. I just had to pace myself so as to tire him. I hooked him and jabbed him silly the first round, then I coasted the second. Right at the end of the second, he caught me with a good right on the jaw, but it didn't do me no harm. Then I started out the third throwing leather on him, and when I could feel him wearing down, I slowed up, looking for my spots to hit him. And then in the fourth round, I poured it on him again. And he did go down; he was nearly out. But he got up at eight. A few combinations sent him back down, and then the referee stopped it. It was just like I planned".
christine
07-24-15, 02:28 AM
Good to see you back here Camo :)
I remember Ali fighting Cooper , but it must've been their second fight as I don't think we had a TV in 1963, so it must've been the rematch in 66 I'm thinking about. He was a nice man Our 'Enery, with a great left hook, but Ali danced too much for him.
Ali is of course one of the greatest boxers, and sportsmen of modern times. Interesting to see who you've got in 1st and 2nd place.
Good to see you back here Camo :)
I remember Ali fighting Cooper , but it must've been their second fight as I don't think we had a TV in 1963, so it must've been the rematch in 66 I'm thinking about. He was a nice man Our 'Enery, with a great left hook, but Ali danced too much for him.
Ali is of course one of the greatest boxers, and sportsmen of modern times. Interesting to see who you've got in 1st and 2nd place.
Agh, I forgot to cite 'enrys hammer', I spoke about it yet forgot to cite the nickname of one of the best punches in boxing history.
Please don't anyone take any guesses at my top two, my #1 is obvious I guess but I feel I have a slightly unique view of him.
christine
07-24-15, 04:40 AM
I don't like to guess these things, I'd rather wait ;)
the samoan lawyer
07-24-15, 09:15 AM
Ali bomaye!!
Miss Vicky
07-25-15, 06:15 AM
I love that a Top Ten list is taking four months (and counting) to complete.
I love that a Top Ten list is taking four months (and counting) to complete.
Thanks!
Sir Toose
08-13-15, 04:29 PM
A few of my favorites (whether or not they're 'best'):
1). David Tua - Brute force power to the tune of 43 KO's (52 wins total) for 59 fights. He lost 5 by decision and was never knocked down or out. One of my personal dreams was to see Tua v Tyson but it never happened. Appearance wise they looked much the same and both had devastating hooks.
2). Prince Naseem Hamed - What a great showman! Some found this distasteful but he had 36 wins (31 by KO) and only one loss. He was certainly cocky but he breathed life back into boxing for a while back in the late 90's.
Of course there's always Jack Dempsey too. The video of Dempsey vs Willard is almost hard to watch. I can't imagine seeing a fight like this today. Willard had broken teeth, a broken jaw, a shattered cheekbone and several broken ribs by the end of it. Should have been stopped much, much sooner.
https://youtu.be/Dyj1JKKiBT8
Sir Toose
08-14-15, 04:55 PM
Just a little more intermission:
David Tua delivering sleep aids.
https://youtu.be/YcT0VGSFCyw
Great choices with Prince and Tua :up:. Personally I can't stand Dempsey though, I really don't have much respect for him as a fighter at all due to his avoidance of the top black fighters of his era particularly Harry Wills. I barely recognize him as Heavyweight Champ actually, the World Coloured Heavyweight title was the true belt during this time IMO. Since the top white fighters like Wills and earlier Langford fought each other as well as the top Black fighters of his day. Plus he was destroyed by the best competition he ever faced IMO in Gene Tunney.
Sir Toose
08-15-15, 02:13 PM
Of course you're right. I just always remember that underdog performance (and feel sorry for Willard whenever I watch it).
Sorry for polluting your thread!
Had to add one for the Clubber Lang Award:
Shannon Briggs is relentless in trying to get a Klitschko fight.
https://youtu.be/6nyoof_Pm8U
christine
08-16-15, 12:16 PM
aha I saw you sneaking posts in here Camo without telling us your number 2 and 1. Get on with it! :D
the samoan lawyer
08-18-15, 07:33 AM
Aye Camo, any chance?
Miss Vicky
10-07-15, 02:11 AM
It's been almost three months since you posted your #3. I love that you slacked off on this with only two entries left to go.
This is just so you.
I'll finish it instead -
#2. Rocky Balboa
#1. Jake LaMotta
the samoan lawyer
10-07-15, 09:44 AM
Usman Ahmed for no.1 just for the ring walk alone.
I've edited pictures in guys, i'll post #2 tomorrow :)
Reserved for Ali Part 2 whenever i get around to it.
2.Sugar Ray Robinson (173-19-6-2)
http://i68.tinypic.com/1r6rn5.jpg
Having the king of the Sugar Ray nickname at #2 is the weirdest thing ever, didn't expect that myself going in but i must say it isn't even close the #1 is not the #1 for this list to be different but because it isn't really close. Legacy wise at least.
I mentioned earlier that Ezzard Charles is underrated because he is mostly known as a decent Heavyweight champ when he is truthfully the greatest LHW of all time who proved himself at HW past his prime. Robinson is pretty much the opposite, he has been mentioned as the greatest ever boxer so much that people feel like they need to mention him without having a clue about him, i can't tell you how many times Robinson has been mentioned as the greatest ever Middleweight (he's not, not even close.) without being mentioned in the weight that he dominated.
http://i64.tinypic.com/2n9getw.jpg
Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest ever Weltterweight. His fights with La Motta give the impression that Robinson was some career Middleweight when he was actually a natural Welterweight who went out of his way to fight (and destroy the majority of the time) a weight cutting Lamotta.
People manage to miss that Robinsons wins against Lamotta were great, but still like an afterthought before Raging Bull, his Welterweight career and his wins against Maxim, Angott and especially Henry Armstrong (whether passed it or not since that was his hero) will always be the defining moments of the second greatest fighter ever ;)
Got a lot more to say about the #1 Sugar Ray, but it has been six months since i updated this haha.
Expect a mammoth post on the #1 which i imagaine most can guess by now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R3Fh6FTaTE
I've edited pictures in guys, i'll post #2 tomorrow :)
haha
jiraffejustin
02-17-16, 07:03 PM
I've only seen a handful of his fights. I should be ashamed. :D
I can't wait until you post your #1... I wonder who it will be ;)
I will find out in 6 months, I guess.
christine
02-17-16, 08:04 PM
Good to read about Sugar Ray. Don't forget to edit in some video clips too :)
Good to read about Sugar Ray. Don't forget to edit in some video clips too :)
Thanks for reminding me . The video i used isn't the best to showcase SRR's skills but i just love his comments at the start of it, really puts things into perspective now that at the time he was trying to defend himself as a good fighter and now he is pretty much universally accepted as the greatest pound for pound ever. All of those guys are wrong though ;), my #1>SRR without a doubt.
I've only seen a handful of his fights. I should be ashamed. :D
I can't wait until you post your #1... I wonder who it will be ;)
I will find out in 6 months, I guess.
You better catch up on Robinson bro, or our thread will seem ridiculous ;). Six months? You are saying that as if i couldn't go for twelve.
Nah, just kidding i'll post my #1 soon, could do it right now but i hate that i am going to give him a crappy write up already.
1.Harry Greb (261-17-19-1)
http://i66.tinypic.com/2hycjv9.jpg
The greatest fighter of all time at least pound for pound is Harry Greb and it isn't even close. I have no idea why Robinson is usually rated higher other than that title fights were a lot easier to come by during his day. Just wait a second and listen to what i'm saying, i'm saying that a guy who is universally recognized as the greatest Middleweight Champion of all time didn't get enough title shots. Yep, that was the case during a time when title shots were as rare as possible, Greb floated about and dominated the Middle, LH and Heavyweight divisions. To put this into modern terms it is like whoever the hell the best Welterweight right now going up to LHW to take on Kovalev or Stevenson or Ward, doesn't matter.
Greb is unquestionably the most underrated fighter of all time, pound for pound he is forgotten because he is without a doubt the greatest MIddleweight of all time. People don't realize that the only people who achieved more at LHW than him were Moore and Charles and that is because they fought much more at that weight, then we have Heavyweight around the time of Grebs death the top fighters of that division were avoiding him, Greb is actually famous for being the first proven avoided fighter. No doubt there were avoided fighters before him like Sam Langford but he was the first person people straight up admitted they didn't want to get into the ring with.
http://i67.tinypic.com/1zday55.jpg
Not for nothing, from the descriptions of all fighters i have never heard glowing reviews for someone like Greb, the only one that comes close is Armstrong who himself said Greb was the greatest fighter he ever saw.
Now, Harry had nearly 300 fights before he died, he also showed that he was the greatest p4p by darting between those three weights while being the best or at the very least the second best at each. The thing with Grebs record is that he didn't just beat most of the best fighters of his time but he did so against prime versions of most of them. The only over the hill fighter was usually Greb and he still defeated them.
This has taken well over a year so i think it would be best to just list a few of his scalps, apologize to jj and christine haha, then start some another list that will take at least two years.
First of all he was the only person to beat Gene Tunney, yeah that guy who beat the pretender to Grebs throne Dempsey twice.
As well as him he beat; Tommy and Mike Gibbons (unrelated, the latter is one of the greatest middleweights of all time, the former isn't far behind). Billy Miske, Jack DIllon, Battling Levinsky, Mike O'Dowd, Kid Norfolk, Tommy Loughran (this was unbelievable at the time how much Greb consistently beat Loughran like an incompetent child), Johnny WIlson, Frank Moody, Tiger Flowers, Mickey Walkeer, Max Rosenbloom,. haha. I was planning to name alot of world class fighters to show that Greb is by far above everyone in history in that field, then i realised i have only mentioned about two thirds of them and no one else come anywhere near this.
http://i68.tinypic.com/9sgvp5.jpg
All i can say is he is my #1 until someone attempts to show me a reason for even considering a fighter is better under just about any criteria there is. I know it is a movie site and people want to find lost John Ford films or whatever, but i'd sell everyone of them for a crappy quality Greb fight. Wouldn't even think about it.
Top 5 of the original eight weights:
Heavyweight:
1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Larry Holmes
4.Lennox Lewis
5.George Foreman
Light Heavyweight:
1.Ezzard Charles
2.Archie Moore
3.Harry Greb
4.Gene Tunney
5.Michael Spinks
Middleweight
1.Harry Greb
2.Carlos Monzon
3.Marvin Hagler
4.Sugar Ray Robinson
5.Stanley Ketchel
Welterwright
1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Kid Gavillan
4.Barney Ross
5.Jimmy McLarnin
Lightweight
1.Roberto Duran
2.Joe Gans
3.Pernell Whitaker
4.Benny Leonard
5.Tony Canzoneri
Featherweight
1.Willie Pep
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Sandy Saddler
4.Salvador Sanchez
5.George Dixon
Bantamweight
1.Eder Jofre
2.Carlos Zarate
3.Terry McGovern
4.Panama Al Brown
5.Manuel Ortiz
Flyweight
1.Pancho Villa
2.Jimmy Wilde
3.Benny Lynch (the best flyweight and about the thirtieth best person born in the gorbals after me and my family and friends)
4.Fidel LaBarba
5.Pasquel Perez
Miss Vicky
02-17-16, 10:57 PM
It took you 11 months to list 10 boxers. Impressive. :laugh:
Did you see my profile comment first, or were you already posting? I need to know.
Miss Vicky
02-17-16, 11:03 PM
I saw your comment first.
I saw your comment first.
You are boring, you could've at least lied and said you never read my comments ;)
Does no one else think that first Harry Greb pic looks exactly like Tom Hardy?
Miss Vicky
02-17-16, 11:07 PM
Does no one else think that first Harry Greb pic looks exactly like Tom Hardy?
Are you drunk?
Are you drunk?
So you are telling me that first picture doesn't look like Tom Hardy?
Miss Vicky
02-17-16, 11:23 PM
So you are telling me that first picture doesn't look like Tom Hardy?
Maybe with some prosthetics and a lot of makeup, Hardy could be made to pass for him. But "exactly like Tom Hardy"? Definitely not.
Redwell
02-17-16, 11:30 PM
Too much respect for the past imo.
Too much respect for the past imo.
Who was missing in your opinion and why?
Maybe with some prosthetics and a lot of makeup, Hardy could be made to pass for him. But "exactly like Tom Hardy"? Definitely not.
Greb was much more beautiful than Hardy.
Too much respect for the past imo.
This has kinda annoyed me, i know he probably wont post back here with whoever he thinks should have made it and why but still. The top ten of the 21st Century so far IMO. Not the best fighters that have fought since 2000 or Robeto Duran would be my #1, just the best since 2000 record-wise.
1.Floyd Mayweather
2.Manny Pacquiao
3.Bernard Hopkins
4.Wladimir Klitchsko
5.Juan Manuel Marquez
6.Marco Antonio Barrera
7.Roman Gonazales
8.Gennady Golovkin
9.Miguel Cotto
10.Sergey Kovalev
jiraffejustin
02-18-16, 01:41 AM
Your knowledge of the history of boxing is pretty impressive, Camo. I really don't know anything about Mr. Greb. I have much to learn from you, sensei.
Redwell
02-18-16, 02:02 AM
Too much respect for the past imo.
Who was missing in your opinion and why?
Lists like these are completely subjective, but I'd have a hard time putting somebody like Greb at the top without any footage of him in the ring to go off of. Especially since he was a white guy in the 20s. Ignoring the fact that SRR is the consensus best fighter of all time by a wide margin, how would you rank Greb above somebody like Tunney who isn't even on the list?
Besides that, I'm definitely a skeptic when it comes to renaissance boxing being so romanticized and purely computational rankings based off of stats aren't very much fun. No need to get rattled.
christine
02-18-16, 03:19 AM
Interesting choice Camo. I've only vaguely heard of Greb, but his record is amazing.
I've loved reading your list but my favourite of your ten (besides Ali, who everyone loves) has to be Benny Lynch. It'd be great to see that film of his life made :)
Miss Vicky
02-18-16, 05:38 AM
Maybe with some prosthetics and a lot of makeup, Hardy could be made to pass for him. But "exactly like Tom Hardy"? Definitely not.
Greb was much more beautiful than Hardy.
:nope:
Lists like these are completely subjective, but I'd have a hard time putting somebody like Greb at the top without any footage of him in the ring to go off of. Especially since he was a white guy in the 20s. Ignoring the fact that SRR is the consensus best fighter of all time by a wide margin, how would you rank Greb above somebody like Tunney who isn't even on the list?
Besides that, I'm definitely a skeptic when it comes to renaissance boxing being so romanticized and purely computational rankings based off of stats aren't very much fun. No need to get rattled.
Greb beat Tunney, Tunney beat Greb too but Harry was the much smaller man and the only fighter to ever beat the guy. Pound for Pound it is by far Harry again, Harry was the best fighter in the world at two weights and the most feared and one of the best in a third while fighting 20+ times a year and darting between all three weights, think about that he didn't just need to stay in shape all year he was also constantly gaining and losing weight while still beating the best fighters in the world the majority of the time. Record wise it is laughably in Grebs favour, hope i don't need to expand on that. Not sure why it matters that he was white in the 20s, he fought plenty of black figjhters including Kid Norfolk and Tiger Flowers probably the two best black fighters of their time and among the best of all time, Greb avoided no one and fought most of the best boxers of his day in their prime at three different weights. Tunney would fit into your protected white fighter label a lot more than Greb.
I had Robinson at #2 it is not as if i snubbed him. A case can of course be made for SRR as the #1, i am just personally a lot more impressed by Greb. Why do you believe he deserves it over Greb? Also if you read my first post you would notice i said fighters with no or very little footage would get the benifit of the doubt. There is no other way to judge them so unless i completely ignore them or make a 60s-present list or something, i had to take them into consideration as much as Ali or Robinson.
I wasn't rattled i was curious what you meant. Sounded like you would have had someone modern in the list and i was curious who and why, turned out to be Gene Tunney apparently. haha
Your knowledge of the history of boxing is pretty impressive, Camo. I really don't know anything about Mr. Greb. I have much to learn from you, sensei.
haha. Thanks a lot for following the list :)
Interesting choice Camo. I've only vaguely heard of Greb, but his record is amazing.
I've loved reading your list but my favourite of your ten (besides Ali, who everyone loves) has to be Benny Lynch. It'd be great to see that film of his life made :)
Thanks a lot for following Christine :). By the way Benny Lynch didn't make the top ten i wish i could've forced him in somehow ;). I see why you thought that as i mentioned him as much as possible :D.
A Lynch film would be amazing, Shane Meadows or Ken Loach to direct.
christine
02-18-16, 09:07 AM
Thanks a lot for following Christine :). By the way Benny Lynch didn't make the top ten i wish i could've forced him in somehow ;). I see why you thought that as i mentioned him as much as possible :D.
A Lynch film would be amazing, Shane Meadows or Ken Loach to direct.
well it was a long time ago you were talking about him ;)
Shane Meadows would be great, he made that short doc king of the gypsies doc didn't he, and is always threatening to make a full length film
well it was a long time ago you were talking about him ;)
Shane Meadows would be great, he made that short doc king of the gypsies doc didn't he, and is always threatening to make a full length film
Funny you mention that. Haven't watched the doc yet but i was actually reading about Bartley Gorman a few weeks ago while going through Tyson Fury fights i found out he is apparently related to him. Hopefully Meadows finds out that Benny Lynch is much more interesting ;)
Optimus
02-18-16, 09:18 AM
Hey Camo do you watch MMA?.
+rep for finishing the list. Good job Camo.
the samoan lawyer
02-18-16, 10:03 AM
Great list and you really know your'e stuff Camo, its very impressive. Every top 10 list is subjective and going to be different from everyone else's but it is hard to argue with the amount of detail you have delved into.
Well played.
Hey Camo do you watch MMA?.
I have watched UFC a bit, but not enough to hold a decent conversation about it. I'm planning on getting into it properly at some point. JJ knows his MMA, he had a great Pride thread going here - http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=37800&highlight=pride
He also turned me onto a great Japanese fighter that i have somehow forgot the name of now :facepalm:
+rep for finishing the list. Good job Camo.
Thanks Gatsby :)
Great list and you really know your'e stuff Camo, its very impressive. Every top 10 list is subjective and going to be different from everyone else's but it is hard to argue with the amount of detail you have delved into.
Well played.
Thanks a lot for following SL :). I think i may continue this just adding #11 and on whenever i feel like it, i'm also planning on doing Ali part 2 at some point.
Man, even when i finish something here i don't actually finish it haha.
Redwell
02-18-16, 12:05 PM
Lists like these are completely subjective, but I'd have a hard time putting somebody like Greb at the top without any footage of him in the ring to go off of. Especially since he was a white guy in the 20s. Ignoring the fact that SRR is the consensus best fighter of all time by a wide margin, how would you rank Greb above somebody like Tunney who isn't even on the list?
Besides that, I'm definitely a skeptic when it comes to renaissance boxing being so romanticized and purely computational rankings based off of stats aren't very much fun. No need to get rattled.
Greb beat Tunney, Tunney beat Greb too but Harry was the much smaller man and the only fighter to ever beat the guy. Pound for Pound it is by far Harry again, Harry was the best fighter in the world at two weights and the most feared and one of the best in a third while fighting 20+ times a year and darting between all three weights, think about that he didn't just need to stay in shape all year he was also constantly gaining and losing weight while still beating the best fighters in the world the majority of the time. Record wise it is laughably in Grebs favour, hope i don't need to expand on that. Not sure why it matters that he was white in the 20s, he fought plenty of black figjhters including Kid Norfolk and Tiger Flowers probably the two best black fighters of their time and among the best of all time, Greb avoided no one and fought most of the best boxers of his day in their prime at three different weights. Tunney would fit into your protected white fighter label a lot more than Greb.
I had Robinson at #2 it is not as if i snubbed him. A case can of course be made for SRR as the #1, i am just personally a lot more impressed by Greb. Why do you believe he deserves it over Greb? Also if you read my first post you would notice i said fighters with no or very little footage would get the benifit of the doubt. There is no other way to judge them so unless i completely ignore them or make a 60s-present list or something, i had to take them into consideration as much as Ali or Robinson.
I wasn't rattled i was curious what you meant. Sounded like you would have had someone modern in the list and i was curious who and why, turned out to be Gene Tunney apparently. haha
No need to get defensive. The list just reads like you looked at people's records on Boxrec. Tunney was very modern btw, but again that requires watching him fight to know that.
How am i being defensive? You asked why Tunney wasn't on the list and i answered. I have seen Tunney fight, watched as much footage as i could find of him, great fighter just not top 10 IMO and certainly not better than Greb.
Redwell
02-18-16, 12:41 PM
certainly not better than Greb.
You can say his resume isn't as extensive, but Tunney beat Greb in their 5 fight series. That's pretty definitive. I'm not trying to pick a fight. If I make a list, you can crap on it all you want in return.
Yeah i mentioned that Tunney beat Greb, you have to take into account that Greb was older and also at a smaller weight than Tunney usually he also fought a lot more each year and against consistently tougher competition and still managed a win and draw, some of Tunneys wins are still contested also but since there is no footage so that doesn't really matter. Head to Head is a factor for me but not the only one it would confuse things too much, if that was all i was going by i would have to have Sandy Saddler above Willie Pep for instance which doesn't feel right at all.
Nah, it is fine i think we just picked each other up wrong. Tunney would rank high on my list just not top 10 and i just don't see a case for having him above Greb personally but it is fine if you do. Just wondering what would your top 10 be?
Optimus
02-21-16, 12:23 PM
I have watched UFC a bit, but not enough to hold a decent conversation about it. I'm planning on getting into it properly at some point. JJ knows his MMA, he had a great Pride thread going here - http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=37800&highlight=pride
He also turned me onto a great Japanese fighter that i have somehow forgot the name of now :facepalm:
You should really get into it more. Some really great fights coming up.
Which great fights are coming up? I might watch them if i can.
I know no one really cares but i'd like to further justify two of my picks.
Harry Greb
There is no footage of Greb, so bringing up someone like Tunney is fair enough i guess, but Tunney went 3-1-1 against the much smaller Greb with two of his wins heavily disputed, i get that with no footage that shouldn't matter but you also have to consider that Greb was never knocked out or even came close to being knocked out and those two Tunney wins were the biggest controversies of his career even though Greb himself accepted them. I imagine if records were kept for this sort of thing then Greb would easily hold the record for beating men a lot larger than him. He actually only fought three fights above middleweight against someone smaller than him and one of them was because his opponent couldn't make Middleweight so Harrry was given a week to make Light Heavyweight, he did and ended up knocking him out in the second round.
Muhammad Ali
May seem weird having him at #3 above some of these 100+ fighters at multiple weights. I just don't think many people achieved more in a tougher division, and i think Ali did that in two seperate versions of the HW division.
The two Liston fights are a great starting point to examine Ali. I am of the opinion that the second fight was most likely fixed but i think that was only which round Liston quit in, i don't believe at any time including the time when Liston was plowing through the HW Division before he finally got his shot that he would have as much as won a round against Ali, prime or not.
I'm not an Ali was invincible proponent but Ali was a nightmare for him and i think he showed that in the first fight, he produced the exact game plan you would tell him to if you were his manager, use your reach and speed to call the match from the outside; the thing that i think shows that version of Ali before Vietnam was #1 H2H is that he got bored and started fighting Liston on the inside. This was the greatest inside HW boxer that had been seen at this point, Ali outfights him that much in the inside that Sonny starts throwing desperate lunging blows from the outside, yeah, that is right Sonny realizes he is losing at his own game against Ali so much that he needs to attempt to compete with his much superior reach that Ali had barely brought into play yet. It is baffling and sad how easy that win was for Ali, it makes Sonny quitting completely understandable, Ali had beat him down but even if he had barely hit him i would understand why Liston didn't continue he knew he was being treated like an amateur and would have been eliminated anyway.
Ali vs Foreman
This fight has become a lot bigger now because of how it is thought of now. At the time it was massive but most expected Ali's funeral, why wouldn't they a guy past his prime who lost to a guy Foreman quickly knocked out attempting to challenge him? Thing is that the only thing most factored in was Foremans power they didn't think of Ali's chin or intelligence, or his ring IQ.
Truthfully this was another fighter that never had a chance against Ali, well he would have quickly knocked out the Ali that Holmes and Berbrick fought but other than that no again Ali was a nightmare for him. Prime or not Ali had maybe the most solid chin in boxing history if not at least proven chin, Ali also showed that he could last fifteen with anybody, remember that Angelo threw in the towel for a sick Ali at the end of the fourteenth round against one of the greatest HWs of all time in Larry Holmes, no KO, lasting til the end. George Foremans main problem against Ali was that Foreman even during his prime (which includes the rumble, i actually think that was George at his absolute best of his career) had trouble keeping up his attacks past the fourth round, and he had trouble even lifting his arms after the sixth most of the time especially against someone like Ali who would be able to take a surprise punch. Basically any version of Ali deals with Foremans stamina problems.
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