6th HOF-Before The Devil Knows Your Dead

[seanc]

Nominated By: Cricket

I wanted to find a movie that I thought was not only great, but underseen, and I think I have one. You could call it a crime drama, but it is so much more than that, dealing with desperation and deep family pain. The last film from legendary director Sidney Lumet is intense, and features tremendous acting. It is not an easy movie to enjoy, but I believe it is a masterful one.

http://cdn.moviestillsdb.com/sm/3d13607f0b527d94f8fb8ea10723bece/before-the-devil-knows-youre-dead.jpg

[cricket]

If anyone knows what I like, they know I like dark, miserable movies, and this certainly fits with that theme. I hope most of the members get something out of it, and I think most will. I mostly have my doubts as to whether or not Gbgoodies will like it.

[hello101]

I didn't like this when I originally saw it, just seemed like a lesser effort from Lumet and defintely not deserving of his final film before passing. It lacked the tension of Dog Day Afternoon and charm of Network, Ethan Hawke was good as a nervous kinda-wreck though. Hoffman was alright as well.

I hope my thoughts change upon a much needed rewatch.

[cricket]

I didn't love it the first time I saw it either. I now find it super intense, and it has my favorite performance from Hoffman.

[christine]

oh I love dark miserable films so hopefully I'll like this one and it has PSH so bodes well!

[gbgoodies]

If anyone knows what I like, they know I like dark, miserable movies, and this certainly fits with that theme. I hope most of the members get something out of it, and I think most will. I mostly have my doubts as to whether or not Gbgoodies will like it.


After reading this, I did a quick search on IMDB for this movie and it sounds interesting. It may be a little bit too violent for me, but it has a good cast, and an interesting plot, so hopefully I'll like it. I'll definitely watch it with an open mind.

[cricket]

It's not very violent, but I find it to be more emotionally upsetting.

[gbgoodies]

I just finished watching Before The Devil Knows You're Dead and it was a very good movie. However I think I would have preferred if the movie was shown in chronological order. I don't think there was any benefit to showing it out of order, and it was even kind of distracting at times.

[cricket]

That's interesting, and I've seen movies before that did this that bothered me, but I liked the style in this movie.

Here's a quote from Roger Ebert about it-

"Here he takes a story that is, after all, pretty straightforward, and tells it in an ingenious style we might call narrative interruptus. The brilliant debut screenplay by Kelly Masterson takes us up to a certain point, then flashes back to before that point, then catches us up again, then doubles back, so that it meticulously reconstructs how spectacularly and inevitably this perfect crime went wrong."

I'm glad you thought it was good, as I know it's not your taste.

[Miss Vicky]

So we've got two Lumet films this round. I've seen neither, but I enjoyed his films that I watched for the 70s list, so hopefully that will translate to me liking these two as well.

[cricket]

Another good Lumet film is The Pawnbroker (1964), which I watched at Mark's recommendation.

[rauldc14]

Before the Devil Knows You're Dead

This movie had a lot going for it. The acting is really good, especially Seymour Hoffman and Hawke. This is probably my favorite from PSH actually. The directing and the storyline were great. Lumet has managed to sandwich his 50 year filmography in between to great movies, an extremely rare feat that I doubt can be topped actually. I thought the nonlinear story format actually played out really well, usually those things never really bother me unless too much is given away, which I didn't believe to be the case here. I'm actually surprised I had never heard of this film before as it's the type of film that I usually tend to like. The end wasn't exactly what I had hoped for, but really there was no happy ending here, so after thinking about it for a bit it may not be so bad after all. This one should shoot pretty high up on my list though, and was a great nomination by Cricket.

[cricket]

Glad you liked it Raul, because I feel like I took a bit of a gamble nominating it. I don't think anyone would deny the superb acting or direction, but I'm not sure how universally appealing it is. It is also my favorite performance from Hoffman, and a big reason why I thought he was the best actor of the last 20-25 years. Albert Finney is also brilliant in it.

[VFN]

I liked this. Hoffman is always great to watch too.

[Miss Vicky]

I knew virtually nothing about this film before going in. Wow. Intense is definitely the best word to describe it. I thought the performances were excellent all around and I felt the non-linear story telling really worked well here. It was really interesting watching all the pieces of the puzzle finally fit together until I got the whole picture of this f*cked up family. Definitely a worthy nomination. Thanks, Cricket.

4+

[seanc]

Just finished this. Very solid crime thriller. When you have a cast like this and Lumet you can't go wrong. I don't know that it does anything to elevate to the point where I think I will love it or consider it a favorite though. I thought the story telling technique worked really well. Just when I was wondering what one characters relationship was to another, a jump back would fill me in. Is anybody better suited to play Hoffman's father than Finney? Casting them two together was brilliant. I guess my biggest problem was not having anyone to jump on board with. Usually not a problem but I felt like the writing was trying to evoke some sympathy from the viewer and that never happened with me here. Incidentally this movie looks fantastic on blu-ray. Good nom Cricket, very glad I have finally seen it.

[Guaporense]

Very entertaining film about the stupidity of killing our own mother. 4 One of the most engrossing film in this Hall of Fame.

[cricket]

Glad you enjoyed it Guap, because I had my doubts. I didn't really expect anyone to describe it as entertaining.

[cricket]

I just thought this was a funny quote from Roger Ebert's review, regarding a sex scene with Philip Seymour Hoffman-

"say what you will about the big guy, Hoffman looks to be an energetic and capable lover"

[Gatsby]

Before the Devil Knows You're Dead

I had been planning to watch this one for a long time way before the Hall of Fame, because it's my favorite director's last picture. Glad it showed up, a lot of other films interfered in the way of watching it on the date planned.

I have loved every single film Sidney Lumet crafted, and nearly all of them would make a Top 200 list if I made one, and a special number of favorites I consider masterpieces are in my Top 100. This nomination was exactly what I expected, a modernized version of Lumet thrillers with a stunning cast of two awesome leads, who are played each very different characters but emotionally clash together in a brilliant way. The non-linear way of storytelling was a great choice, it made an already solid flick even more special. Nice choice cricket, this isn't the exact opposite of pulling a Guap like I did. :D

4.5-

[cricket]

Glad you enjoyed it Gatsby:)

When I see someone post here, I really have no clue how they will feel about this movie.

[Thursday Next]

I watched this last night but I'm still not sure what I think about it. There are so many elements that I can't quite decide whether they were good choices or not.

I don't know if the non-linear narrative added to the film or not. I found it annoying to start with, as it seemed like a kind of trick, and seemed to interrupt the tension that could otherwise have been built up of this whole thing spiralling out of the characters' control, but then after a while I thought that perhaps it wouldn't have been as interesting without it.

I'm not sure about the tone of the film either. It's played pretty straight and depressing, but there are several points where things get so ridiculous it almost feels like the script for a dark comedy, yet it is resolutely not in the slightest bit funny.

There was a kind of cold, conscious ugliness about the film which reflected the subject matter well but didn't make it particularly appealing to look at.

I think all the actors involved do a good job, with the possible exception of Marisa Tomei. And I really liked the music.

I didn't especially enjoy it, I didn't think there was anything particularly great about it, but it was decent. I think looking closely at these films for the hall of fame means discovering good things about films, but it also makes us picky because we are comparing them to other films in the hof. I think I've found something to appreciate about everything we've watched, but I feel like I've been mostly critical when writing about them!

[cricket]

It's fine to be critical-your points are valid!

[mark f]

If anything, Thursday wasn't critical enough. :cool:

[cricket]

:coleman:

[neiba]

I am starting to seriously love Sidney Lumet! Between 12 Angry Men and this one are 50 years! The way he changed his way of making cinema through so much time is astonishing!

Before the Devil knows your Dead is a fantastic movie! The premise is what I like more about it, and overall it's executed extremely well! The sountrack helps creating an dark and heavy atmosphere, just the way I like it! Also the performances are incredible, as in every Lumet's movie! The only one I didn't quite like was Marisa Tomei... She seemed a bit stupid the entire film...
As Thursday, I'm not so sure about what did the non-linear narrative did in fact added to the suspense construction, but I can't say I disliked it.
Great nomination overall!

[cricket]

Glad you liked it Neiba, I felt that you were the best chance to enjoy it as I know you're a big Lumet fan. As far as Tomei goes, I really loved her in it. I can't honestly say it's because of her acting, but it counts!

[neiba]

Ohhhh, I know what you mean! :p And in that particular subject, I'm with you 100%! :p

[Guaporense]

Glad you enjoyed it Guap, because I had my doubts. I didn't really expect anyone to describe it as entertaining.

It grabbed my attention really quickly. I love absurd movies, killing your own mother trying to rob your own family firm is very absurd.

Sidney Lumet still had the chops after directing so many movies and over such long time period. His films are overall all very entertaining and engrossing, from 12 Angry Men to this one, all grabbed my attention really quickly.

[Guaporense]

I am starting to seriously love Sidney Lumet! Between 12 Angry Men and this one are 50 years! The way he changed his way of making cinema through so much time is astonishing!

Before the Devil knows your Dead is a fantastic movie! The premise is what I like more about it, and overall it's executed extremely well! The sountrack helps creating an dark and heavy atmosphere, just the way I like it! Also the performances are incredible, as in every Lumet's movie! The only one I didn't quite like was Marisa Tomei... She seemed a bit stupid the entire film...
As Thursday, I'm not so sure about what did the non-linear narrative did in fact added to the suspense construction, but I can't say I disliked it.
Great nomination overall!

My ratings for Sidney Lumet movies:

12 Angry Men 4_5
Fail Safe 4_5
Dog Day Afternoon 4_5
Before the Devil Knows you are Dead 4+

Never disappointed me so far. He's certainly better than Nolan, for instance.

[Gatsby]

You can't compare Nolan and Lumet to begin with. :D

[cricket]

It grabbed my attention really quickly. I love absurd movies

You see I didn't think it was absurd at all. In fact, I could totally relate to and understand Hoffman's character, and his motivation. I'll get into it more after I watch it again.

[rauldc14]

You can't compare Nolan and Lumet to begin with. :D

Was going to post this, but didn't because its not worth the argument.

[Gatsby]

Great minds work alike. :up:

[neiba]

My ratings for Sidney Lumet movies:

12 Angry Men rating_4_5
Fail Safe rating_4_5
Dog Day Afternoon rating_4_5
Before the Devil Knows you are Dead rating_4+

Never disappointed me so far. He's certainly better than Nolan, for instance.

Mine are quite similar:

12 Angry Men 4.5 +
Fail Safe 5
Dog Day Afternoon 4
Before the Devil Knows you are Dead 4+

[Thursday Next]

I much prefer 12 Angry Men and Dog Day Afternoon to either of the Lumet films nominated for this hof, unfortunately.

[rauldc14]

Before the Devil Knows You're Dead isn't as good as either of those, but its an amazing span of bookend films to go from 12 Angry Men in 1957 to that.

[seanc]

I am becoming a huge fan so I am really looking forward to Fail Safe. Dog Day, Serpico, Network, and 12 Angry are all top notch and among my favorites.

[mark f]

My Sidney Lumet ratings, for what it's worth:

Before the Devil Knows You're Dead (2007) 2.5
Find Me Guilty (2006) 3
Gloria (1999) 2
Night Falls On Manhattan(1997) 2.5
Critical Care (1997) 2.5
Guilty as Sin (1993) 2.5
A Stranger Among Us (1992) 2.5
Q & A (1990) 2.5
Family Business (1989) 2.5
Running on Empty (1988) 2.5+
The Morning After (1986) 2.5
Power (1986) 2.5
Garbo Talks (1984) 2.5
Daniel (1983) 3
Deathtrap (1982) 3+
The Verdict (1982) 3.5
Prince of the City (1981) 3.5
Just Tell Me What You Want (1980) 2.5
The Wiz (1978) 2.5
Equus (1977) 2
Network (1976) 3.5+
Dog Day Afternoon (1975) 4-
Murder on the Orient Express(1974) 3.5+
Lovin' Molly (1974) 2.5
Serpico (1973) 4-
The Offence (1973) 2+
Child's Play (1972) 3 - missed that the first time
The Anderson Tapes (1971) 3
King: A Filmed Record... Montgomery to Memphis (1970) 3
The Appointment (1969) 1
The Last of the Mobile Hot-Shots (1969) 2
Bye Bye Braverman (1968) 2.5
The Sea Gull (1968) 2.5
The Deadly Affair (1967) 2
The Group (1966) 2.5
The Hill (1965) 2.5
The Pawnbroker (1965) 4
Fail Safe (1964) 3.5
Long Day's Journey Into Night (1962) 3
A View From the Bridge (1961) 2.5
The Fugitive Kind (1960) 2.5
That Kind of Woman (1959) 2
Stage Struck (1958) 2
12 Angry Men (1957) 4

[Frightened Inmate No. 2]

you guys should check out Lumet's Child's Play. it's pretty awesome.

[gbgoodies]

My Sidney Lumet ratings, for what it's worth:

Before the Devil Knows You're Dead (2007) 2.5
Find Me Guilty (2006) 3
Gloria (1999) 2
Night Falls On Manhattan(1997) 2.5
Critical Care (1997) 2.5
Guilty as Sin (1993) 2.5
A Stranger Among Us (1992) 2.5
Q & A (1990) 2.5
Family Business (1989) 2.5
Running on Empty (1988) 2.5+
The Morning After (1986) 2.5
Power (1986) 2.5
Garbo Talks (1984) 2.5
Daniel (1983) 3
Deathtrap (1982) 3+
The Verdict (1982) 3.5
Prince of the City (1981) 3.5
Just Tell Me What You Want (1980) 2.5
The Wiz (1978) 2.5
Equus (1977) 2
Network (1976) 3.5+
Dog Day Afternoon (1975) 4-
Murder on the Orient Express(1974) 3.5+
Lovin' Molly (1974) 2.5
Serpico (1973) 4-
The Offence (1973) 2+
Child's Play (1972) 3 - missed that the first time
The Anderson Tapes (1971) 3
King: A Filmed Record... Montgomery to Memphis (1970) 3
The Appointment (1969) 1
The Last of the Mobile Hot-Shots (1969) 2
Bye Bye Braverman (1968) 2.5
The Sea Gull (1968) 2.5
The Deadly Affair (1967) 2
The Group (1966) 2.5
The Hill (1965) 2.5
The Pawnbroker (1965) 4
Fail Safe (1964) 3.5
Long Day's Journey Into Night (1962) 3
A View From the Bridge (1961) 2.5
The Fugitive Kind (1960) 2.5
That Kind of Woman (1959) 2
Stage Struck (1958) 2
12 Angry Men (1957) 4


Some of those ratings are a little low even for you.

[mark f]

Yes?

[Miss Vicky]

Some of those ratings are a little low even for you.


Look like typical mark f ratings to me. :shrug:

[gbgoodies]

Some of those ratings are a little low even for you.
Yes?


These are the ratings that I thought should have been higher, even by your normally low ratings.

My Sidney Lumet ratings, for what it's worth:

Running on Empty (1988) 2.5+
Deathtrap (1982) 3+
Fail Safe (1964) 3.5
Long Day's Journey Into Night (1962) 3

[Guaporense]

You can't compare Nolan and Lumet to begin with. :D

I can compare anybody to anybody I wanna! Tarantino with Tarkovsky if it may be.

Footnote: That was a joke, also comparing Lumet to Nolan also was a joke. :D

[cricket]

This was my nomination and I watched it last night for the fourth time. I think it's a great movie due to the acting and the execution of the story, but it's a personal favorite because I identify with the characters and their motivations. The pressure, desperation, hopelessness, and the sudden outbursts of emotion are all very realistic. I understand the mindset of making a horrible decision out of personal circumstance. I have no idea if the nonlinear narrative helps the movie, or if it was necessary, but I think the end result is extremely effective.

4.5

[Friendly Mushroom!]

I watched Before the Devil Knows You're Dead tonight. What an intense film! One of the best noms for this HoF!

4.5

:)

[christine]

Just finished watching. It's a decent solid heist film, with the added family twist . I liked the non linear story, thought it gave an energy to the telling. There was an added poignancy at seeing PSH, such a very good actor. Seeing him taking drugs too :(

[cricket]

Yes, that was a sad aside about PSH that wasn't there the first time I saw it. He was an exceptional actor.