Je Suis Charlie ...

[DarkMarc]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6wFfiaIcAAIgpA.jpg

I don't know if the events that took place in Paris yesterday made it to you all, but I take the opportunity to start a thread.

[The Gunslinger45]

The families of the dead have my sympathy. And the dead have my respect for their defiance. RIP.

[Sexy Celebrity]

What the Hell?

[Derek Vinyard]

Tragic. It's a mad mad mad world.... killing each other for after all..... nothing

All the families of the dead have my sympathies and pray that it doesn't happen again

#CharlieHedbo #FreedomOfSpeech

[matt72582]

This is horrible..

I just wonder how the world will respond... Will this repel religion?

[matt72582]

"There are no prophets, only profits"
-Matt Selout (silent French "T")

[honeykid]

I was going to post some of the reactiosn I saw yesterday. As a thread's been started, I'll put them here. The language might not quite fit the sites guidelines, but I think Yoda will forgive it just the once.

http://www.bizpacreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Cartoon2.png
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6x9Yl5CcAEDOFY.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6xpa72IIAAqWoi.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6wZOY8CMAA_b6v.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6w9TFsIQAAiTee.jpg:large
http://images.f169bbs.com/content/2015-01/anti-muslim-cartoons-in-reaction-to-the-paris-terror-attack-9099.jpg
http://netloid.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/netloid_12-powerful-cartoons-responding-to-the-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-attack-in-paris.jpg
http://www.news1130.com/files/2015/01/BobKriegerCartoon.jpg

[VFN]

http://newyork.trendolizer.com/assets_c/2015/01/345942-thumb-288xauto-298087.jpg

[Erasmus Folly]

http://www.buro247.com/images/Illustrators_respond_to_the_Charlie_Hebdo_attack146.jpg
http://www.buro247.com/images/Illustrators_respond_to_the_Charlie_Hebdo_attack148.jpg
http://www.buro247.com/images/Illustrators_respond_to_the_Charlie_Hebdo_attack150.jpg
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2465902/thumbs/o-THE-INDEPENDENT-570.jpg?6
http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/158376_600.jpg

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2465956/thumbs/o-L-INDEPENDANT-570.jpg?6
https://pmcvariety.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/writers-guild-reacts-to-charlie-hebdo.jpg?w=670&h=377&crop=1

[VFN]

To paraphrase something I heard several years ago: Some fundamentalists don't have faith; they have a mental illness.

[DarkMarc]

More turmoil in Paris : two hostage situations, one with the two killers from the Charlie Hebdo massacre. Paris is a 4 hour drive away for me, so it does feel like really nearby.

Another picture I would like to share here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B63bG3QCYAE7Hqh.jpg

[gandalf26]

Looks like several more people killed in one or both of the hostage situations. World has gone mad.

[DarkMarc]

To put things in perspective http://check-point.be/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/29-1024x725.

[matt72582]

ALL Religions will die one day and look at this generation and think, "Why?"

[Yoda]

No, they won't. And you tried to make this issue a proxy for all religious thought earlier in the thread, and others (wisely) refused to take the bait.

[Cobpyth]

It's very big in the news here in Belgium (a Belgian woman and child were also part of the hostages today).

I think about 19 people have been killed in the last three days all combined and there are still a few in critical condition.

Heavy stuff.

Our western world will need a very thoroughly thought out plan to deal with the Islamic terrorism that's coming over from Syria and other parts from the Middle East. It's insane that this happened in the first place and it's even more insane that this went on for three whole days!

[matt72582]

They won't in my lifetime, but I can't wait for the future generations to enjoy.

It's just a matter of time. Just look at history, and then consider we have the internet now.. It could be hundreds of years from now, or longer.. I'm not saying deism will die out, I have nothing against that. I'm hoping the ideas will remain. Thou shall not kill is a good one, but then so many "religious" people are for the death penalty. I don't consider those cowards who killed great people who did good work religious. They were nuts. Maybe motivated by religion, which was their cancer.

[matt72582]

What I don't know is how we can solve this problem. I don't want a more fearful civilization, more security, because in some ways, they have won... Just go on an airplane.

I think there's no way to prevent this from happening. I think most of these assassins might have done something crazy anyway, and with all the attention they see on the news, internet, they capitalize on it, and become more extreme by following whatever group... I don't mind having lax security and understanding things like this will happen from time to time.


It's very big in the news here in Belgium (a Belgian woman and child were also part of the hostages today).

I think about 19 people have been killed in the last three days all combined and there are still a few in critical condition.

Heavy stuff.

Our western world will need a very thoroughly thought out plan to deal with the Islamic terrorism that's coming over from Syria and other parts from the Middle East. It's insane that this happened in the first place and it's even more insane that this went on for three whole days!

[Yoda]

They won't in my lifetime, but I can't wait for the future generations to enjoy.

It's just a matter of time. Just look at history, and then consider we have the internet now.. It could be hundreds of years from now, or longer..
Yeah, looking at history is precisely how I know this is wrong (and a terrible thing to hope for, given its track record).

If you want to wishcast about religion dying, start a thread, please. I'll participate. It's a force-fit in this topic, though.

[The Rodent]

There's only one way religion will die and that's to prove it completely wrong.


The only way to do that is finding life on another planet/moon.


Sounds radical, but it's the only way I can see it happening.


As for these terrorists... all they seem to be doing is driving us all closer together.

[Cobpyth]

What I don't know is how we can solve this problem. I don't want a more fearful civilization, more security, because in some ways, they have won... Just go on an airplane.

A safer civilization does not equal a more fearful civilization.
I don't mind having to go through some security formalities when I know that it will hugely reduce the chances of my plane getting hijacked. We live in a reality where that's possible, so it's more than normal that we adjust to that reality.

I think there's no way to prevent this from happening. I think most of these assassins might have done something crazy anyway, and with all the attention they see on the news, internet, they capitalize on it, and become more extreme by following whatever group...

Of course there are ways to prevent this.

First and foremost: Effectively prevent people to come back to Europe after fighting in a war at the side of Islamic extremists.

I don't mind having lax security and understanding things like this will happen from time to time.

As long as nothing ever happens to any of your relatives, I presume? ;)

[Sir Toose]

Religion isn't responsible for the woes of the world.

Stupid, unthinking people (who lack empathy) are the problem.

There's a lot of beauty in many religions... to wholesale write them off as problematic is throwing out the baby with the bath water.

The religious element in any of these attacks is only a cog in a much larger machine.

[matt72582]

There's no way to know what people are doing wherever they go...

[Pussy Galore]

It's terrible, but there is a problem that comes with that. The medias, even some of my friends and some members of my familly have a tendency to generalize those acts to the whole muslim religion which is ridiculous. That religion lives a crisis right now, but historically there was a period when christians categorically rejected the texts of ancient greek philosophers and that if it weren't for the arab philosophers and thinkers we wouldn't have the works of Aristotle, Socrates Plato, Epicurus, etc.


On the other hand, radical islamism is endangering our society and is a real threat to the security of western citizens. So I am really torn Inside because I have muslims friends that are intelligents, open about their religions (I had some lpong discussions where I questionned them and they answered brilliantly like an intelligent christian would) and I don't see why these guyz should pay for a group of extremists, but I can also understand arguments of more right wing people that puts forward the security of their people so I don't know .... I'll reflect more about it in the following weeks

[ashdoc]

This is just the beginning . The population of muslims is going to increase in Europe in future and particularly in France . They have plans to put the crescent on the Eiffel tower , and rename London as Londonistan---and they have some chance of succeeding . Europe has gone too liberal for it's own good , and the effects of that are showing....

[gandalf26]

This is just the beginning . The population of muslims is going to increase in Europe in future and particularly in France . They have plans to put the crescent on the Eiffel tower , and rename London as Londonistan---and they have some chance of succeeding . Europe has gone too liberal for it's own good , and the effects of that are showing....



And far right/Nationalist groups are on the rise. Lot of unrest to come in Europe in the next few years I think.

[Cobpyth]

They have plans to put the crescent on the Eiffel tower , and rename London as Londonistan---and they have some chance of succeeding.

:laugh:

[matt72582]

I know we have some French members. I wonder how they feel about this...

[ashdoc]

The first to be targeted when the population of muslims will rise will be the jews and gays . The jews can go to Israel , but where will the gays go ?? May be they should create their own homostan---a nation for gays .

[Cobpyth]

What is this I don't even

[ashdoc]

What is this I don't even

if you are saying you dont understand what i am saying , then i mean to say that islam is totally opposed to homosexuality and gays will be targeted for attack by islamic radicals .

creation of israel on former islamic land ( palestine ) means jews are next in line for getting targeted . .

[ashdoc]

here is a view from an israeli viewpoint about fears of jews---

http://www.timesofisrael.com/sharansky-paris-massacre-shows-time-running-out-for-europe/

[Miss Vicky]

Pretty sure Cobpyth was referring to your "nation of gays" Homostan idea.

[Pussy Galore]

ashdoc you're not talking about islam, you're talking about radical islam. There are some intelectuals that are willing to reform the religion and to, as they did 1000 years ago, mix religious belief with reason.

[ashdoc]

Pretty sure Cobpyth was referring to your "nation of gays" Homostan idea.

OK , I admit that it is a utopian idea .

But jews at least have their own country . Where will gays go ??

[ashdoc]

ashdoc you're not talking about islam, you're talking about radical islam. There are some intelectuals that are willing to reform the religion and to, as they did 1000 years ago, mix religious belief with reason.

India has 19 percent muslim population and I have interacted with lot of muslims . Trust me , they are never going to change .

[Camo]

So Homostan is your idea of a Utopia... good to know :p .

[Camo]

India has 19 percent muslim population and I have interacted with lot of muslims . Trust me , they are never going to change .

Sounds about right, all Muslims want to put the crescent on the Eiffel Tower (whatever that means) and call London Londonistan, just like all Christians bomb Abortion Clinics and everyone from Glasgow is perfect. That last one is actually true :D .

[ashdoc]

So Homostan is your idea of a Utopia... good to know :p .

i meant it is impractical .

[Pussy Galore]

Well, maybe muslims from India aren't the same then muslims from Québec, but I have had some very deep philosophical discusions with muslims that were very intelligent and that even though they believed in allah were also saying that religion is something private and that it goes with personnal belief not in politics. Reason and logic is something that can be possible even for religious people (think of Saint-Augustin, Averroès, Avicenne, etc.)

Also, I'd like to give an exemple of a beautiful text that talks about the problems and propose some solutions to islam (it's written in french so I know that 95% of the members won't be able to read it, but I know that Cobpyth and maybe some others speak french so I wanted to share) http://quebec.huffingtonpost.ca/abdennour-bidar/lettre-au-monde-musulman_b_5991640.html

[christine]

Europe isn't becoming too liberal, we're becoming a more accepting society. I just have to look at the changes in social attitudes during my lifetime - amazingly, gay people are just people, gay marriage is two people who love each other, people of different colours only have different colour skin nothing else, different cultures can co-exist . The only thing we need to stand up to are people who can't or who won't live together whether they are Muslim, Christian or whatever. Right wing groups thrive on creating conflict between races, cultures and religions , we have to work to combat this . Let's get the terrible events of any terrorist attack into perspective please.

[Mr Minio]

The homostan idea inspired me to create my own country - Kinkistan!

[Camo]

The homostan idea inspired me to create my own country - Kinkistan!

Camoroon :p .

[ashdoc]

Well, maybe muslims from India aren't the same then muslims from Québec, but I have had some very deep philosophical discusions with muslims that were very intelligent and that even though they believed in allah were also saying that religion is something private and that it goes with personnal belief not in politics. Reason and logic is something that can be possible even for religious people (think of Saint-Augustin, Averroès, Avicenne, etc.)

Also, I'd like to give an exemple of a beautiful text that talks about the problems and propose some solutions to islam (it's written in french so I know that 95% of the members won't be able to read it, but I know that Cobpyth and maybe some others speak french so I wanted to share) http://quebec.huffingtonpost.ca/abdennour-bidar/lettre-au-monde-musulman_b_5991640.html

Yes , from the outside it seems like that , but people who have married muslims have had a different experience . Their religion and it's rules become a stumbling block to any co existence and conversion of the non muslim partner to islam is the only choice if the marriage has to continue .

[Miss Vicky]

i meant it is impractical .

Impractical is one way to put it. Ludicrous and bigoted is another.

[Cobpyth]

What I found odd and funny is that you're building (weird) theories out of the somehow irreversible perspective that Radical Islam will rule our world in the future.

I believe radical islamists do form a threat to our western culture in some ways, especially because a significant percentage of Muslims in the Middle East have what we would call "extremely radical" ideas (definitely a higher average percentage than other core areas of large religions around the world) and because there are certain fanatic groups that also try to force their radical doctrine on (for instance) European society (some even with terrorist violence, as we witnessed today), but there's absolutely no reason to believe that those groups will actually ever be able to truly overthrow our western culture and way of living in any substantial manner.

Also, as Pussy Galore already pointed out, it's important to not confuse the radical Muslims with Muslims in general (even if we may have some smaller differences in opinion with the average, non-radical Muslim as well).

[ashdoc]

Impractical is one way to put it. Ludicrous and bigoted is another.

I was talking of homostan as a place of refuge for gays when muslim population increases in europe and the gay community in europe is targeted by islamic radicals .

[VFN]

...but where will the gays go ?? May be they should create their own homostan---a nation for gays .

Some, at least, will find this remark offensive.

[Camo]

Not really sure why Ashdoc has turned this into a debate about the Islamic Lifestyle. This was a senseless and horrendous attack on both innocent people and free speech by a bunch of Radical Islamists; i think sometimes people need to be reminded of the word Radical everyone is always instantly drawn to the Religion of the perpertrators rather than the actual circumstances that willed them to carry it out, which isn't the mere fact they are Muslim. All i'd like to say is my heart goes out to all of the families and France as a nation.

RIP

[Cobpyth]

Also, why would the gays give their nation a Middle-Eastern name? :p

[ashdoc]

Some, at least, will find this remark offensive.

didnt mean to offend anyone .

in fact i was talking about survival of the gay community when muslim radicals begin to target them .

[christine]

I was talking of homostan as a place of refuge for gays when muslim population increases in europe and the gay community in europe is targeted by islamic radicals .

Rest easy, cos that just isn't going to happen . If the Muslim population increases in Europe there is no reason why there would be more radicals, in fact the next generations would just become more European.

[Camo]

Also, why would the gays give their nation a Middle-Eastern name? :p

Irony :shrug:

[ashdoc]

Not really sure why Ashdoc has turned this into a debate about the Islamic Lifestyle.


Speaking the bitter truth earns only hostility---I have discovered that .

I shall let you wallow in blissful ignorance .

Quitting the thread .

[Sexy Celebrity]

I'm fine with an All Gay country called Homostan, but, lesbians and transsexuals need to make their own countries, too. And I think a large percentage of other gay men would agree with me.

[Sir Toose]

But jews at least have their own country .

Well, I think that's currently being disputed.

RE: Gays
I don't think it'll all go so far, reason will out. Radical Islam has neither the method, the message nor the means to do anything but engage in terrorist activities. Even their own hate them.

[VFN]

didnt mean to offend anyone .

in fact i was talking about survival of the gay community when muslim radicals begin to target them .

Okay, didn't mean to insinuate you intended to be offensive. "Homo" is considered a slur in the States just so you know.

[Camo]

didnt mean to offend anyone .

in fact i was talking about survival of the gay community when muslim radicals begin to target them .

Gays are targeted by every group of radicals, whether it's Islam, Christians, Athiests, religion may be an extra incentive or more accurately excuse to target gays; but it's certainly not exclusive to Muslims.

[Sir Toose]

Gays are targeted by every group of radicals, whether it's Islam, Christians, Athiests,

Atheists target gays? As a group? :suspicious:

[Camo]

Speaking the bitter truth earns only hostility---I have discovered that .

I shall let you wallow in blissful ignorance .

Quitting the thread .

No hostility from me, but i must say that it's made my day being called ignorant by someone who turned a thread about a horrific tragedy, into an agenda driven rant about Islam.

[VFN]

Atheists target gays? As a group? :suspicious:

I was just going to question that myself, as well as the notion of radical Atheists.

[Sexy Celebrity]

They target them when they need a decorator.

[Camo]

Atheists target gays? As a group? :suspicious:

That was pretty much my point, that anyone using religion to attack Gay people or any other group for that matter, do not represent any denomination which Ashdocs comments seem to suggest the actions of Radical Islamists do.

All i know is that Richard Dawkins clubs baby seals :p .

[ashdoc]

"Homo" is considered a slur in the States just so you know.

ok , i will come back into this thread just for one more post because i want to correct my mistake .
i withdraw the name i gave and suggest a new one---gayland .

Rest easy, cos that just isn't going to happen . If the Muslim population increases in Europe there is no reason why there would be more radicals, in fact the next generations would just become more European.

fifty years down the line if we are both alive we will have known the answer .

while i fear my predictions will come true , i hope i am proved wrong and it is you who is proved correct .

[Sexy Celebrity]

Give me a break. Thinking a gay country would be called Homostan is not offensive. We call ourselves "homosexuals", as well as a lot of other vulgar names at times.

In fact, if there was ever a real gay country, it would probably be named something much, much worse.

It would probably be called the United Dicks of Amenica. Something like that.

[Camo]

Give me a break. Thinking a gay country would be called Homostan is not offensive. We call ourselves "homosexuals", as well as a lot of other vulgar names at times.

In fact, if there was ever a real gay country, it would probably be named something much, much worse.

It would probably be called the United Dicks of Amenica. Something like that.

Homophobe :rolleyes:

[Sir Toose]

***wonders if 'Amenica' was a typo. If not, it might be funnier than I'd originally thought.

[christine]

fifty years down the line if we are both alive we will have known the answer .

while i fear my predictions will come true , i hope i am proved wrong and it is you who is proved correct .

Well Ashdoc, one thing I can guarantee and that's that I won't be here in 50 years time! so, I'll pull age rank and say, trust me I'll be right. Have a drink on me in 2065 ;)

[Sexy Celebrity]

***wonders if 'Amenica' was a typo. If not, it might be funnier than I'd originally thought.
No, it wasn't.

[VFN]

Give me a break. Thinking a gay country would be called Homostan is not offensive. We call ourselves "homosexuals", as well as a lot of other vulgar names at times.

An appellation accepted within a group can still be considered offensive when used by outsiders.

[Sane]

There are some really sad, bigoted comments from Ashdoc in this thread - and some silly ones. Why on earth would someone want to rename London Londonstan???

In 1999 there was an Australian Christian missionary and his two sons attacked by a group of about 50 people in India - their car was set alight and the mob prevented them from escaping. The three of them were burnt alive - the children being 10 & 6. Does this act by Hindu hardliners represent the thoughts of all Hindus - just like Ashdoc seems to claim that the actions of radical Muslims represent all Muslims?

Do the actions of Catholic priest around the world and their treatment of children represent the beliefs of all Catholics?

We had a hostage situation in Sydney about a month ago where two people were killed. It was carried out by someone claiming to represent ISIS. After this event a memorial was set up where people could leave flowers and pay their respects. The number of Muslim Australians that visited that memorial when I was there was amazing - and they were there because they felt, like non-Muslim Australians, that this was an attack on their city and it certainly didn't represent their religion.

The world has a problem with criminals claiming that they are acting on behalf of a religion - it doesn't have a problem with Muslims. Go to Malaysia, a Muslim country, at Christmas sometime to see all of the Muslim families taking photos of their children in front of Christmas trees. That is what truly represents the vast majority of people who follow that religion.

[Sexy Celebrity]

An appellation accepted within a group can still be considered offensive when used by outsiders.

In some cases, it might really be offensive. But I don't care. A lot of times it's just humorless, crazed crybabies who like to scream "HOMOPHOBIA!" "HOMOPHOBE!"

[Cobpyth]

I think Ashdoc is probably much more exposed to (semi-)radical Islam than most of us here and therefore has more biased and extreme views on the matter because of his personal experiences with the religion.

I'm going to be very honest here. I'd probably be the exact same way if I lived in a country where a large part of the population (the Islamic part) wants to impose their religious values and habits on the more secular part of society, for instance when it comes to women's rights (which Ashdoc referred to), rights for LGBTs, etc.

I don't agree with what he's saying, but I think it's important to understand his views through his perspective.

[ashdoc]

I think Ashdoc is probably much more exposed to (semi-)radical Islam than most of us here and therefore has more biased and extreme views on the matter because of his personal experiences with the religion.

I'm going to be very honest here. I'd probably be the exact same way if I lived in a country where a large part of the population (the Islamic part) wants to impose their religious values and habits on the more secular part of society, for instance when it comes to women's rights (which Ashdoc referred to), rights for LGBTs, etc.

I don't agree with what he's saying, but I think it's important to understand his views through his perspective.


dead accurate !!

muslims divided my country ( India ) and created pakistan in the midst of the most horrific massacres---probably a million died . that pakistan ( a creation of indian muslims ) does not have normal relations with India , but is in perpetual hostility with India .

Indian muslims have been suspected to co operate with pakistan whenever it mounts a terrorist attack on India .

muslims refuse to accept modern secular laws in respect to marriage and insist on maintaining their right to polygamy at a time when other religions in India have accepted modern secular laws . they even forced the government to reverse the court judgement giving muslim women equal rights .

I could go on and on....

[Erasmus Folly]

Well, maybe muslims from India aren't the same then muslims from Québec, but I have had some very deep philosophical discusions with muslims that were very intelligent and that even though they believed in allah were also saying that religion is something private and that it goes with personnal belief not in politics. Reason and logic is something that can be possible even for religious people (think of Saint-Augustin, Averroès, Avicenne, etc.)

Also, I'd like to give an exemple of a beautiful text that talks about the problems and propose some solutions to islam (it's written in french so I know that 95% of the members won't be able to read it, but I know that Cobpyth and maybe some others speak french so I wanted to share) http://quebec.huffingtonpost.ca/abdennour-bidar/lettre-au-monde-musulman_b_5991640.html
You can load up this webpage and then right click on the page and then 'translate using Bing' (or I think Google can translate too). It is not a perfect translation but about 90% accurate and gives a pretty good idea of what the writer is trying to say.

[Erasmus Folly]

Give me a break. Thinking a gay country would be called Homostan is not offensive. We call ourselves "homosexuals", as well as a lot of other vulgar names at times.

In fact, if there was ever a real gay country, it would probably be named something much, much worse.

It would probably be called the United Dicks of Amenica. Something like that.
I live in Seattle Wa. which is home to the activist/writer of Savage Love, Dan Savage, who is gay himself and writes about sexual/gender identity issues. He consistently uses terms like queer or freak when referring to gays and breeders when referring to straights. When I first read his advice column 20 years ago I was shocked at how frank he was in his language and his discussion of human sexuality issues and applauded his honesty and level-headed views on life. But of course he uses terms like 'queer', 'homo' and 'breeder' to grab the readers' attention and force them to deal honestly with their own feelings and prejudices.

When events like what has happened in France take place, and it will happen again somewhere, it forces people to look closely at our own feelings, prejudices, and laws - to re-examine our cultural ideals and values, something that closed societies, autocratic and dictatorial systems abhor. The first thing to go in these type of societies is the printing press and comedians.

Je Suis Charlie!

[DarkMarc]

Another cartoon from the late Tignous published in Charlie Hebdo, a more moderate one, but how true

http://a404.idata.over-blog.com/373x500/2/31/98/41/Al-atoire/securedownload.jpeg

[christine]

very true DM

[christine]

I used to read another French satirical newspaper when I lived in France in the mid 70s - the near 100 year old Le Canard Enchaîné which I think has more investigative journalism than Charlie Hebdo? anyway at the time Franco was in his death throes, so Spain was on the cusp of change and Pinochet was well into the swing of his regime of torture and murder, in reading about these world events in Le Canard, it was instrumental in awakening my interest in world politics which has lasted all this time.

[DarkMarc]

This video came under my attention shortly after the events https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI74lOgfxk4 and I can not but agree.

[christine]

totally disagree with what that speaker is saying when she says the peaceful majority are irrelevent. If the peaceful majority are irrelevent we might as well give up living! Aside from stating that 15-25% of muslims are radical (I'd like to see the proof of that, I don't believe it) so, she has examples where ordinary people have allowed dictators to run their countries and commit atrocities against their citizens - Germany/China/Japan/Russia . Yes undoubtably this has happened but look back on history, things like this happen but societies learn from this. Germany is a peaceful nation, Japan is too. I believe China will come to democracy within the next 50 years. Russia is suffering a financial crisis so goodness knows what will happen there. Chile recovered from Pinochet's murderous rule and is now a prosperous peaceful nation. We might be quiet but we are not irrelevent.

[honeykid]

Well that was a whole lot of irrelevant packaged together.

[Cobpyth]

Aside from stating that 15-25% of muslims are radical (I'd like to see the proof of that, I don't believe it)

Globally, I think an even larger part of Muslims are (what we would perceive as) radical ideologically, but 15% to 25% seems about right when you define radical as "oppressive and supporting violence against Western civilization". Naturally, that percentage is higher amongst Muslims in the Middle East than amongst the Muslims that live in our Western society.

You can determine that through the various (independent) surveys that have been conducted that try to measure the degree of Muslims in different locations that answer in favor of (for instance) terrorist attacks and other extreme ideas:

Here are two links that show a wide selection of the kind of polls I'm talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

Of course that doesn't make the peaceful majority irrelevant and not all Muslims should be stigmatized because there's a substantive group of radicals amongst them, but it's also important to not be blinded by what is being referred to as "the peaceful majority".

Radical Islam is a truly serious problem that should very much be dealt with and the fact that most Muslims don't hold radical ideas doesn't change that. Protecting and upholding our Western values is crucial and I think we should be able to strive against the bad and outright dangerous ideas that are being preached in a significant part of the Muslim world without people constantly saying that our society is discriminating against Muslims in general.

[neiba]

Very interesting opinion:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332535/We-think-the-Paris-terrorists-were-offended-by-Charlie-Hebdos-satire.-What-if-were-wrong.html

[honeykid]

For the most part, I think Islam is about as relevant to these people as Catholicism was to the IRA. It may be an 'in' or it may be the general pool of people they recruit from, but by the time we're talking going into buildings and killing cartoonists, I don't think Islam is much but the shield they stand behind or the standard they bear.

[christine]

Entirely agree with you HK.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that this was three terrorists and apparently one woman accomplist out of a French population of over 63 million. I'm not downplaying the disgusting murders they committed or the havoc they created but being scared is what the terrorists want to force upon the population.

Very interesting opinion:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332535/We-think-the-Paris-terrorists-were-offended-by-Charlie-Hebdos-satire.-What-if-were-wrong.html

I don't think that journalist is far wrong Neiba (despite working for the Telegraph ;))

[Cobpyth]

Am I wrong or are you people actually insinuating that Islam as an ideology has nothing to do with all this?

[honeykid]

I don't think it has anything to do with the end result of these atrocities other than, as I said before, an in or the way to recruit and the justification for their actions.

[Yoda]

I think it's perfectly coherent to think that most Muslims are peacefully while simultaneously recognizing that it has a disproportionate number of violent extremists compared to most other religions. The two certainly aren't mutually exclusive.

[honeykid]

I think it does, but by the time we're killing cartoonists, I don't think it's about the religion any more. Maybe part of the problem is that it's 800 years behind Christianity. 800 years ago Christianity was doing the same thing. The sad thing is we can't wait another 800 years for them to catch up.

[Yoda]

Sure, it's a fair point to say that once someone is willing to do something like this, they've tapped into something other than the religion which is its ostensible justification. The question then becomes whether or not certain religions (or ideologies, or worldviews) are more likely to attract and enable such people, or if it's a coincidence. Which is admittedly a tough question to answer, though at a certain level of frequency the question has to be asked.

Re: 800 years ago. If you're referring to the Crusades, I'm not sure that's a particularly analogous situation. For one, it was preceded by literally centuries of repelled invasion attempts.

[Pussy Galore]

After the fall of the roman empire, christianity became the general ideology in Europe and with that came an almost complete rejection of the greek and roman philosophers texts (texts which are the basis of our society today) and at that period in time persians and arab thinkers were the ones who made progress in mathematics, astronomy, etc. So at a certain point and time it was the chistians who were endoctrinated by religion. I think it's interesting to just put the situation in perspective.

However, I agree with Cobpyth when he says that we have a real issue on our hands today with the radicalisation of a certain group in islam that interpretes their holy book in a different way (I think they say that they need to summit themselves to the prophet or something like time) and they are a threat to our security. I don't know what political actions we have to take, but something has to be done

[honeykid]

Re: 800 years ago. If you're referring to the Crusades, I'm not sure that's a particularly analogous situation. For one, it was preceded by literally centuries of repelled invasion attempts.
Didn't the Pope basically give a decree that anyone who went and fought for Christianity against the enemy and retook the Holy land would be rewarded in heaven, their sins forgiven? That started C11th, I think and went on for about 200 years.

[Cobpyth]

I don't think it has anything to do with the end result of these atrocities other than, as I said before, an in or the way to recruit and the justification for their actions.

So they just do these terrorist acts because they're bad people and they use Islam purely as a justification? The ideology has nothing to do with it?

I couldn't disagree more.

This has been observed and tested. Islamic terrorists strongly believe in their doctrine and because the Quran promotes Holy War in various passages (you can look them up if you want), they actually feel like they fight and die (which isn't that bad when you believe you'll get 70 willing virings in the afterlife) for the good cause.

Did you read the phone conversation one of the terrorist had with the RTL TV station?
He talks about how we are unveiling their women and how we as a society are constantly offending the values of Islam. Their deeds are clearly inspired by their ideology. They see us as a threat because we don't abide their radical laws.

This is not just a war against random terrorists who just happen to be Muslims. This is an ideological war with radical Islam. Not only the people behind the attacks are problematic. The (radically interpreted) ideas are too and therefore we also have to recognize and treat that as an important part of the issue.

@Neiba:

That article seems to insinuate that we are wrong because we believe in freedom of speech. It insinuates that we should simply accept radical Muslims for who they are and if they attack us because we offend their world views (with cartoons for instance), we are to blame. We shouldn't have given them an excuse...

That's a very preposterous and even dangerous perception to have, in my opinion. When we would follow the philosophy of that article, we would indirectly censor ourselves because we're afraid of offending terrorists. THAT is a situation where they win and we lose. Not the other way around.

EDIT: I somewhat misread the article.

[matt72582]

I think personal problems were there first. Identity with Europe clashing with where their parents came from for example, and wanting to choose and go back and forth, as a form of social identity.

I think religion is being used as a recruiting tool... When Christians (in Europe, America, etc) commit similar acts to terrorism, they're "lone nuts" and their religion is never mentioned, but the media is pretty garbage. They are nothing more than salesmen.. Gossip... They have only one bias, a financial one. If you watch news from every country, you can see how the same thing is twister to fit their viewership.

[Erasmus Folly]

There is a vast difference between supporting violent acts against the West and strapping on a suicide vest or picking up a Kalashnikov. The actual number of practicing jihadists is under 50,000. And don't ask Wikipedia or the internet for statistics to back you up. You can find anything on the Web. As Winston Churchill said about the outbreak of WWII can be applied to the world of the Internet - "The first thing to go is the Truth". I know there is an inherit disbelieve in a countries agencies like the FBI, CIA, MI5,or DGSE, but I think you will find that they will opt for the lower figure. But the leaders of such groups as ISIS and Al-Qaida are very media, both mainstream and social media, savvy. They know how to exploit and magnify attention. As the man said about PR, It doesn't matter if it is negative or positive, as long as they spell your name right.

But the point raised by the young woman in the video posted by DM before she was brushed aside with disdain, must still be addressed. How do you fight an idea with bullets and bombs? One must alleviate the oppressive and stifling conditions in which such violent ideas can generate and be exploited. Ideas can only be opposed by other ideas. Don't hate the hater.

[neiba]

@Neiba:

That article seems to insinuate that we are wrong because we believe in freedom of speech. It insinuates that we should simply accept radical Muslims for who they are and if they attack us because we offend their world views (with cartoons for instance), we are to blame. We shouldn't have given them an excuse...

That's a very preposterous and even dangerous perception to have, in my opinion. When we would follow the philosophy of that article, we would indirectly censor ourselves because we're afraid of offending terrorists. THAT is a situation where they win and we lose. Not the other way around.

Did we read the same article? oO
He doesn't say nothing about fear of offending terrorists, unless you're saying that Muslims and terrorists are synonyms...

Here's a reality: Nationalist Parties have been growing everywhere in Europe and especially in France! Attacks like this only feed that monster!

What he's trying to say is that we shouldn't instinctively hate all the Muslims because of this attack!

[honeykid]

But the point raised by the young woman in the video posted by DM before she was brushed aside with disdain, must still be addressed. How do you fight an idea with bullets and bombs? One must alleviate the oppressive and stifling conditions in which such violent ideas can generate and be exploited. Ideas can only be opposed by other ideas. Don't hate the hater.
I agree with the last two sentences of this and I think the answer is education and intergration, as it is to most problems of this sort. Especially if you can educate/liberate the women. Getting women educated, into the workforce and given control of reproduction (i.e. birth control) is the key, IMO. This is something which will go on for decades, so strap in everyone. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[Erasmus Folly]

This is something which will go on for decades, so strap in everyone. It's going to be a bumpy ride.
:up:

[Pussy Galore]

Here's a reality: Nationalist Parties have been growing everywhere in Europe and especially in France! Attacks like this only feed that monster!



That is absolutely right, I follow french politics quite a bit and the FN (the political party of Marine Lepen that was to her father Jean-Marie before) already had a pretty good following because that the french had difficulties to integrate the muslims to their country so it caused tensions, made the crime rate higher (because in France a lot of the people from arabs origin (particularly algerians and marocans) have to live in what they call ''banlieues'' where there are a lot of immigrants and where the level of life is lower. (the movie La Haine shows it well) Lepen actually says that it's the fault of immigration and that the country needs to lower the amount of immigrants in order to get back on track, but she forgets something. When a country accepts to take in immigrants it's its job to integrate them to society, the polarisation between french and arabs is mainly caused by the lack of competance of the french politicians. And unfortunately these terrible events fuel such discourses... In addition to that a french journalist called Éric Zemmour that has some maybe even harsher opinions on immigration than Lepen is almost becoming a public hero.

[neiba]

Exactly!

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4613491,00.html

[Cobpyth]

Did we read the same article? oO
He doesn't say nothing about fear of offending terrorists, unless you're saying that Muslims and terrorists are synonyms...

Here's a reality: Nationalist Parties have been growing everywhere in Europe and especially in France! Attacks like this only feed that monster!

What he's trying to say is that we shouldn't instinctively hate all the Muslims because of this attack!

I reread the article again. It seems like I read it a little too cursorily the first time (that can happen when I'm studying management accounting and trying to have a discussion on here at the same time). I now realize that the article is mainly an attempt to call for acceptance towards moderate Muslims and that we shouldn't stigmatize them, because that kind of disunity is exactly what the terrorists want. Of course I agree with that sentiment. :)

I interpreted it as a text that argued that the terrorists weren't truly Islamic (which it kind of seems to insinuate in the beginning) and that's something I don't agree with. That in combination with the sentence "I don't think the terrorists "win" if we fail to reproduce cartoons" rubbed me the wrong way.

Also this:

"Terrorists aren't offended by cartoons. Not even cartoons that satirise the Prophet Muhammad. They don't care about satire. For all I know they may not even care about the Prophet Muhammad."

I think they do actually care about that because it ridicules their radical ideas and therefore undermines their agenda.

[Daniel M]

Also this:

"Terrorists aren't offended by cartoons. Not even cartoons that satirise the Prophet Muhammad. They don't care about satire. For all I know they may not even care about the Prophet Muhammad."

I think they do actually care about that because it ridicules their radical ideas and therefore undermines their agenda.

Agree, whilst the 'cartoon's might be an excuse for something larger from these terrorists, I still believe that they are genuinely offended by them.

[christine]

@Neiba:

That article seems to insinuate that we are wrong because we believe in freedom of speech. It insinuates that we should simply accept radical Muslims for who they are and if they attack us because we offend their world views (with cartoons for instance), we are to blame. We shouldn't have given them an excuse...

That's a very preposterous and even dangerous perception to have, in my opinion. When we would follow the philosophy of that article, we would indirectly censor ourselves because we're afraid of offending terrorists. THAT is a situation where they win and we lose. Not the other way around.

Cob , that's not what the journalist is saying is it? He's saying that the terrorists are using the cartoons as an excuse to incite others to violence, a false outrage to cold bloodedly use Islam as a tool for violence. I saw Muslims at Friday prayer in Paris on TV , I saw youngsters disgusted at what had happened supposedly in their name, and that is heartening.

Pussy Galore and HK have said about second generation youngsters being torn between the faith and beliefs of their parents and the reality of what they encounter in the country they're in now. It must be really difficult. A lot of immigrants in France live in second rate housing, there's high unemployment and like PG says, the right wing parties have a real hold in French politics.
We absolutely need to connect with these youngsters to stop people needing to turn to radicalism. In the UK, do we need Islamic schools? Can we try harder to do something with youth unemployment? I remember when I worked in a school we had visits for the kids to the local church, the synagogue, the mosque - all that demystifies other peoples religions. Can we do more to help each culture understand how the other lives? We must do these things, it's not enough to only be combatting things in a military and security environment.

Call be a softy liberal if you like, but these are people living in our countries, our citizens, if we can keep our citizens onside then whatever happens in countries like Saudi, Yemen and the like just won't be attractive. Maybe then those youngsters in those countries will see the life of terrorism has no future.


Sorry Cob, I see you've posted since I read your last post. I'm too slow at writing these things! :)

[Cobpyth]

Pussy Galore and HK have said about second generation youngsters being torn between the faith and beliefs of their parents and the reality of what they encounter in the country they're in now. It must be really difficult. A lot of immigrants in France live in second rate housing, there's high unemployment and like PG says, the right wing parties have a real hold in French politics.
We absolutely need to connect with these youngsters to stop people needing to turn to radicalism. In the UK, do we need Islamic schools? Can we try harder to do something with youth unemployment? I remember when I worked in a school we had visits for the kids to the local church, the synagogue, the mosque - all that demystifies other peoples religions. Can we do more to help each culture understand how the other lives? We must do these things, it's not enough to only be combatting things in a military and security environment.

Military and security intervention is only needed to protect us from the actual terrorist groups of course. I never said we should fight radical Islam via the military. Naturally that's not a good idea. It's infeasible and it would massively turn against us in the end.

I do think we should strive against radicalism in an ideological manner, which means that we should look for ways to turn (young) Muslims' heads (for instance) away from radical ideas in our own society by presenting them the proper information, education and rules that are needed for that. Integration. Of course they should be able to uphold their own "culture", but it's extremely important that it's in a form that is compatible with what our secularist Western society stands for.

I'll take your example of Islamic schools. It's all fine by me, but those schools also need to be controlled, live by our rules and should also teach what we as a society have agreed upon is important for the proper intellectual upbringing of our youth.

I definitely believe it's possible to have different cultures live with eachother harmonically, but there need to be clear limitations that everyone needs to stay within. You can't allow the thorn bush of radicalism to grow in your own garden and that's why I think it's important to secure and fight for the maintenance of those limitations. It's a continuous effort and we should never lose sight of that important task.
We should be extremely skeptical towards radicalism and that includes radical Islam. We definitely shouldn't act like it doesn't exist, which is what I mainly got from the article the first time I read it (because of the first paragraph) and which is the main reason why I reacted like that. As you already seem to know, I later acknowledged my misreading. :)

Furthermore I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. In my book, everyone who's truly willing to live here according to our basic Western standards is welcome to stay and I'm happy to see that most Muslims are (here in Belgium at least). Everyone should be treated as equals from that point on and it can only make us all richer people if we respect and learn from eachother. That should definitely be promoted! I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Belgium I had plenty of contact with immigrants and children from different ethnicities and religions due to special programs in school.

First we have to make proper agreements and then we can all live together in good terms. That's how we'll be able to fight radical Islam without harming those who want to profess their religion appropriately.

[christine]

Agreed Cob!
There is some concern about some Islamic schools here in the UK, there have been some OFSTED (the government education inspectors) that curriculums are not as broad as mainstream schools. One said "The narrowness of the curriculum means that students' spiritual, moral, social and cultural education, in particular their understanding of the fundamental British values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance, is underdeveloped. Students also lacked opportunities to learn about music and art, or to be creative in PE."
If the public are to funding education in any faith school we need to ensure the whole curriculum is suitable for all children.

[Frightened Inmate No. 2]

https://medium.com/@hugorifkind/there-is-a-difference-between-being-brave-and-being-funny-af2f33ded10e

[honeykid]

Thanks, FI2. :up:

[Daniel M]

Interesting that. I was considering whether or not to post that I didn't think the Charlie Hebdo posts were funny at all, and unless you attempt to go deep in to most of them, on surface level they appear very offensive. Of course, that's not justification for such violence, it's still unjustifiable, but I don't understand completely why everyone is acting like these cartoons of Muslims being gay or French people being described as being as dumb as n*ggers are 'clever and funny'.

I knew a guy in sixth form who was Muslim, one of the nicest guys you could meet. He thought Four Lions was a hilarious comedy too, but I remember an incident where someone burned a Quaran, and that really angered him, obviously not to any point of worry, but I think it's interesting to consider that when people mock religions its easy to create offensive images and label them funny because they contradict their 'holy books'.

If someone like Paul Golding of Britain First (British people will know what I'm talking about here) published a similar cartoon mocking one of the beliefs of Islam, I can guarantee people would label it more offensive than funny because of who he is.

[Erasmus Folly]

https://medium.com/@hugorifkind/there-is-a-difference-between-being-brave-and-being-funny-af2f33ded10e
Thanks for posting this link. Well said. :up:

[Yoda]

https://medium.com/@hugorifkind/there-is-a-difference-between-being-brave-and-being-funny-af2f33ded10e
https://thegerasites.wordpress.com/2015/01/10/exit-wounds-on-condemning-charlie-hebdo-after-the-attacks/

[christine]

Interesting Yoda. I notice that none of the British newspapers have published any cartoons depicting Mohammed , in fact before or after the murders this week. Instead they have concentrated on the cruelty and the senseless loss of life, the relevance of the pen vs the sword. Whether this is a circumspect protection of their staff, cowardice or respect for some readers religion who knows , probably a mixture.

Charlie Hebdo never did have a massive circulation, their content could be crude and unappealing. It had already gone bankrupt once and was almost bankrupt again recently. It had been appealing for funds from its readers to no avail , so it's ironic that now it's future is probably much more secure . The complete opposite of what the gunmen and whoever radicalised them would've wanted.....

I was thinking this afternoon how most people in the world killed by Muslim radical terrorists are Muslim themselves. They are the mass victims. Wouldn't it be great if Muslims in France could stand in a street protest with placards stating " I Am Muslim " and other citizens could stand in solidarity with them . Sadly I can't see it happening , right wing retribution might be too scary to contemplate.

[christine]

Here you are Ms Brigitte Gabriel, founder, president and CEO of Act! America. Here's the 'irrelevant peaceful majority'

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9971194.ece/alternates/w940/Paris-Demonstration.jpg

Over three million people turned out to show solidarity in France today

[gandalf26]

Interesting Yoda. I notice that none of the British newspapers have published any cartoons depicting Mohammed , in fact before or after the murders this week. Instead they have concentrated on the cruelty and the senseless loss of life, the relevance of the pen vs the sword. Whether this is a circumspect protection of their staff, cowardice or respect for some readers religion who knows , probably a mixture.

Charlie Hebdo never did have a massive circulation, their content could be crude and unappealing. It had already gone bankrupt once and was almost bankrupt again recently. It had been appealing for funds from its readers to no avail , so it's ironic that now it's future is probably much more secure . The complete opposite of what the gunmen and whoever radicalised them would've wanted.....

I was thinking this afternoon how most people in the world killed by Muslim radical terrorists are Muslim themselves. They are the mass victims. Wouldn't it be great if Muslims in France could stand in a street protest with placards stating " I Am Muslim " and other citizens could stand in solidarity with them . Sadly I can't see it happening , right wing retribution might be too scary to contemplate.



Frankly it's the responsible thing to do if you run a Newspaper. Is it going to be worth printing a picture of Mohammed if down the line some of your staff are killed because of it? Some journalists work in very dangerous parts of the world too, so if say "The Times" were to do it how can they send a journalist to the parts of the Middle East ever again?

[christine]

Agreed Gandalf

[ashdoc]

There are some really sad, bigoted comments from Ashdoc in this thread - and some silly ones.

In 1999 there was an Australian Christian missionary and his two sons attacked by a group of about 50 people in India - their car was set alight and the mob prevented them from escaping. The three of them were burnt alive - the children being 10 & 6. Does this act by Hindu hardliners represent the thoughts of all Hindus - just like Ashdoc seems to claim that the actions of radical Muslims represent all Muslims?



attack on one missionary did not turn out to be attack on all christians . majority of christians in india are still living safe and sound .

but when pakistan was created by indian muslims in 1947, the entire minority community of pakistan consisting of hindus and sikhs was ethnically cleansed . the minority population of pakistan went down from 20 percent to 3 percent within a matter of weeks .

sorry , i live sufficiently close to hardline islam to realise the danger , and feel that your lack of experience in dealing with these hardliners is what is making you make these comments .

[ashdoc]

Londonstan???

.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/focus/article1505735.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_01_10

[christine]

Nah, not Londonstan. London is a celebration of the whole world. There's 300 spoken languages in London, more than any city in the world. The native language is English with 78% of people having it as their main language according to the 2011 census. :)

[Gianluana]

All of us are Charlie!

[donniedarko]

Well, I think that's currently being disputed.

How so?

Okay, didn't mean to insinuate you intended to be offensive. "Homo" is considered a slur in the States just so you know.

Is it now? That seems weird to me, I understand a word like ****** has completely different connotation than it's dictionary meaning, But homo? That's just a root word.

There are some really sad, bigoted comments from Ashdoc in this thread - and some silly ones. Why on earth would someone want to rename London Londonstan???


Plenty of Muslims- not just radicals mind you- are in favor of instituting Sharia Law in the U.K. One poll even suggests 40% are in favor of this

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

The Islamist ideology is dangerous in the modern world. And of course there's those who will say it's not a Muslim problem and point to Indonesia (Reza Alsan), but 32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans. 83% of the liberals beloved Palestinians.

Source:http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

And this transpires into Muslims coming into the west.

16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".

Source: http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Zestien-procent-moslimjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml

16% is a minority, but it's a very noticeable one.

35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).

Source: http://pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

Second and Third generation seem to be this issue in all the western nations, but regardless the figures are disgusting. And they have a common root of an ideology.

If 35% of people of any ideology supported suicide bombings in a developed nation like France, I'd say that ideology needs to be exterminated.

But hey, can't say that because Islamophobia

Or you can just keep giving them 18 months in jail for conspiring to be terrorists and then let them roam the streets some more.

[Erasmus Folly]

The cover of the current issue of Charlie Hebdo (print run: 3,000,000 compared to a normal run of 60,000).

http://md1.libe.com/photo/707192-une-charlie-png.jpg?modified_at=1421099764&width=750

[Sane]

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/focus/article1505735.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_01_10
Come on, you said "They have plans to put the crescent on the Eiffel tower , and rename London as Londonistan" when in actual fact Londonistan is a phrase created by French Intelligence officials. From what I can see of that article it is the journalist using the term - although I can't see the whole article without registering.

So, show a link that backs up what you said.

[christine]

35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).

Source: http://pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

Second and Third generation seem to be this issue in all the western nations, but regardless the figures are disgusting. And they have a common root of an ideology.

If 35% of people of any ideology supported suicide bombings in a developed nation like France, I'd say that ideology needs to be exterminated.

But hey, can't say that because Islamophobia

Or you can just keep giving them 18 months in jail for conspiring to be terrorists and then let them roam the streets some more.

DD - from your first link (which let's not forget is a bastion of the right wing British establishment, so not going to be particularly sympathetic :D)

"The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity.

Overall, the findings depict a Muslim community becoming more radical and feeling more alienated from mainstream society, even though 91 per cent still say they feel loyal to Britain"


The thing is I see your source and I'm not doubting it but the very state of being young is to have swagger and to be testing and saying extreme things to anyone doing a poll . I'd like to see some proper research into how young Muslims are being radicalised within European countries and how much help the European governments are giving to the Islamic establishment groups like The British Islamic Council to counter this. More importantly what we're going to do about our youngsters (they are our youth, not Muslim youth, they're British youth) being radicalised into extreme groups of whatever religious or political persuasions .You can see from the figures above broken down by country that there's massive differences - we should be finding out why.

Besides you can't give someone 18 months in jail for thinking something. That's a state I don't want to live in.

[ashdoc]

Come on, you said "They have plans to put the crescent on the Eiffel tower , and rename London as Londonistan" when in actual fact Londonistan is a phrase created by French Intelligence officials. From what I can see of that article it is the journalist using the term - although I can't see the whole article without registering.

So, show a link that backs up what you said.

Search for 'can muslim women put a crescent on eiffel tower' on Google. You will find a wonderful article by a man who says that this can be achieved by Muslim women producing more children .

The funny thing about this is that he quotes a hindu ( Gandhi ) to back his ambitions :D

http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2013/02/countries/france/can-muslim-women-put-crescent-on-top-of-effil-tower

[ashdoc]

Never mind . I have given the link myself

http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2013/02/countries/france/can-muslim-women-put-crescent-on-top-of-effil-tower

[ashdoc]

Never mind . I have given the link myself

http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2013/02/countries/france/can-muslim-women-put-crescent-on-top-of-effil-tower

Can Muslim Women Put a Crescent on the Top of the Eiffel Tower?

Posted by Zia Shah

Epigraph: Say to the believing men that they restrain their eyes and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. … And say to the believing women that they restrain their eyes and guard their private parts, and that they disclose not their natural and artificial beauty except that which is apparent thereof, and that they draw their head-coverings over their bosoms. (Al Quran 24:31-32)

Switzerland does not allow construction of minarets for new mosques and France does not allow veil for the Muslim women, but they can put a crescent on the top of the Eiffel Tower, not today, not tomorrow, not in a decade but in two generations, in sixty to seventy years.

As of 11 April 2011, it is illegal to wear a face-covering veil or other mask in public places such as the street, shops, museums, public transportation, and parks, in France. Veils such as the chador, scarves and other headwear that do not cover the face, are not affected by this law and can be worn.

Even those Muslim women who have not heard about the Eiffel Tower or only have a longish dream to visit it can help out in a big way.

The Eiffel Tower (French: La Tour Eiffel, [tuʁ ɛfɛl]) is an iron lattice tower located on the Champ de Mars in Paris, named after the engineer Gustave Eiffel, whose company designed and built the tower. Erected in 1889 as the entrance arch to the 1889 World’s Fair, it has become both a global cultural icon of France and one of the most recognizable structures in the world. The tower is the tallest structure in Paris[10] and the most-visited paid monument in the world; 7.1 million people ascended it in 2011. The third level observatory’s upper platform is at 279.11 m the highest accessible to public in the European Union and the highest in Europe as long as the platform of the Ostankino Tower, at 360 m, remains closed as a result of the fire of August 2000. The tower received its 250 millionth visitor in 2010.

The tower stands 320 metres (1,050 ft) tall, about the same height as an 81-storey building. During its construction, the Eiffel Tower surpassed the Washington Monument to assume the title of the tallest man-made structure in the world, a title it held for 41 years, until the Chrysler Building in New York City was built in 1930. However, because of the addition, in 1957, of the antenna atop the Eiffel Tower, it is now taller than the Chrysler Building. Not including broadcast antennas, it is the second-tallest structure in France, after the Millau Viaduct.

The tower has three levels for visitors. Tickets can be purchased to ascend, by stairs or lift (elevator), to the first and second levels. The walk from ground level to the first level is over 300 steps, as is the walk from the first to the second level. The third and highest level is accessible only by lift – stairs exist but they are not usually open for public use. Both the first and second levels feature restaurants.

The tower has become the most prominent symbol of both Paris and France, often in the establishing shot of films set in the city.

How can the Muslim women put a crescent on the top of the Eiffel Tower?

Who would have thought at the time of World War II, when Germany was trying a genocide against the Jews that in two generations, in sixty to seventy years, owing to labor migration in the 1960s and several waves of political refugees since the 1970s, Islam will become a visible religion in Germany. As of 2009, there are 4.3 million Muslims (5.4% of the population). Of these, 1.9 million are German citizens (2.4%).[2] As of 2006, about 15,000 converts are of German ancestry.

Who would have thought at the time of World War II, when France surrendered to Germany that in two generations, in sixty to seventy years, Islam would be the second-most widely practiced religion in France behind Roman Catholicism by number of worshippers, with an estimated total of 5 to 10 percent of the national population, almost 5-7 million strong?

Who would have thought at the time of World War II, when Europe was at the peak of her intolerance against all minorities that in two generations, in sixty to seventy years, because of European women’s inability to maintain fertility rate due to declining family values and increased divorce rate, and resulting labor migration, the number of Muslims in Europe will grow from 29.6 million in 1990 to 44.1 million in 2010 and will be projected to exceed 58 million by 2030.

Muslims, who were ignored in Europe for decades are now being ridiculed, sometimes for genuine and sometimes for make belief reasons. This is all moving according to a predetermined divine plan, as the Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace be on him, prophesied that sun of Islam will rise from the West in the Latter Days.

For those who would only understand secular paradigms and metaphors, let me offer a quote from Mahatma Gandhi, “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”

Victory is at hand, for the Muslims in Europe, in two generations, in sixty to seventy years.

But, this definitely creates many responsibilities for the Muslims, including, always resorting to the pen and not the sword and always favoring Separation of Mosque-Church and State over any tendency towards theocracy. But, today my focus is on the Muslim women and the family values.

As long as the Muslim women dress modestly, esteem their chastity, honor family values, maintain fertility rate and teach their sons also to do the same, I hereby predict, without any other reservations that in two generations, they will be able to have a million woman march to the Eiffel Tower and say that unless a crescent is installed on the top of the Tower, Muslims will financially boycott the Tower for the coming decade and the Government will negotiate and yield. If not on the top of the Tower certainly by its side.

The future of Islam is almost all about family values and modest dressing that determines the fertility rate. Can the Muslim women keep their values and train their sons into them?

The Louvre museum administration said in December that its new Islamic art wing helped cement its position as the world’s most-visited museum with nearly 10 million visitors in 2012, over a million more than the previous year.

The museum’s new wing of Islamic art, with about 3000 precious works from the seventh to the 19th centuries, opened to the public in September and since then has attracted 650,000 visitors.
The Eiffel Tower is next in line in France.


Read more: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2013/02/countries/france/can-muslim-women-put-crescent-on-top-of-effil-tower#ixzz3Omff3N2V

[Erasmus Folly]

Charlie Hebdo Returns to Newsstands With Muhammad on Cover
By ALAN COWELL (http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/c/alan_cowell/index.html)JAN. 14, 2015

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/01/15/world/15paris/15paris-articleLarge.jpg


PARIS — Just one week after Islamist gunmen slaughtered 12 people in an attack on its offices, the weekly newspaper Charlie Hebdo returned to newsstands across France on Wednesday with a depiction of the Prophet Muhammad on its cover. In some places, vendors reported that it had sold out before daybreak.

Such was the demand that copies of the newspaper were being offered on eBay for hundreds of dollars.

The frenzy offered a vivid backdrop to the sharpening debate between proponents of press freedom and defenders of religious proprieties that has seized France as it reels from the shock of three days of attacks last week in which 17 people were killed by Islamic extremists.

That discussion has also provoked complaints about a perceived double standard in European countries with respect to their treatment of Muslims.

The office of the Paris prosecutor said on Wednesday that a highly provocative French comedian, Dieudonné M’bala M’bala, had been detained as an “apologist for terrorism” because of a comment on Facebook suggesting sympathy for one of the attackers in Paris.

Prosecutors opened an investigation into the comedian on Monday after he referred in a Facebook post to Amedy Coulibaly, a gunman accused of killing four hostages at a kosher supermarket on Friday and of fatally shooting a police officer the day before.

Mr. Coulibaly was shot to death by the police in Paris on Friday at almost the same time security forces killed Saïd and Chérif Kouachi, the brothers who are suspected in the Charlie Hebdo attacks, at a printing warehouse northeast of Paris.

Under French law, praising terrorism publicly is a crime punishable by five years in prison and a fine of 75,000 euros, or $89,000. The punishment can rise to seven years in prison and €100,000 euros if the conviction is for a charge involving the Internet.

In a note on his Facebook page, directed at Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve and written after the unity rally on Sunday in Paris in support of free speech, Mr. M’bala M’bala said that the same government officials who had marched to promote freedom and liberty were now trying to silence him.

“Since the beginning of last year, I have been treated as public enemy number one,,” he wrote, “when all I try to do is make people laugh, and laugh about death, because death laughs at us all, as Charlie knows now, unfortunately.”

He continued: “Whenever I express myself some people will not even try to understand me, they will not listen. They try to find some kind of pretext to suppress me. I am looked upon as if I were Amedy Coulibaly, when I am no different from Charlie.”

The publication of the new issue of the satirical weekly has spurred heated debate about the limits of free speech, with some arguing that laws that ban hate speech fail to prevent insults and provocations directed at Muslims. Some legal experts say that the grounds for complaints against hate speech, including the accusation that the humanity of a group or community has been defamed, are open to subjective interpretations.

The office of President François Hollande said that he would meet on Friday with Secretary of State John Kerry — apparently a belated diplomatic effort to offset the absence of a high-ranking American figure during the rally on Sunday.At the march, about 40 world leaders joined more than one million people in central Paris in a display of opposition to the shootings.

The attack on Jan. 7 was portrayed as a bloody protest by the Kouachis against Charlie Hebdo’s frequent depictions of Muhammad. Many Muslims say that depictions of the prophet are sacrilegious.

The latest cover of the newspaper shows a tearful Muhammad under a headline saying “All Is Forgiven.” The prophet was shown holding a placard with the slogan “Je Suis Charlie,” or “I Am Charlie,” which has become the rallying cry of advocates of press freedom since the killings.

The newspaper’s editors expanded its usual print run of 60,000 to up to three million — later reports indicated it could be raised to five million — and said it would be translated into several languages.

In some areas, lines formed even before newsstands had raised their shutters. Some sellers imposed a limit of one copy per person, as buyers who did not usually read the newspaper snapped up copies as souvenirs.

Commuters said lines of up to 80 people snaked around newsstands as people awaited a chance to buy a copy. In some places, kiosks had sold out by early morning, and distributors said they would try to get more copies by Thursday.

In the upscale 16th Arrondissement, a notice said the newspaper had sold out by 6:45 a.m. In the Seventh Arrondissement, a shopper at a supermarket said she had scoured the neighborhood but had been unable to find a copy.

“It was incredible. I had a queue of 60-70 people waiting for me when I opened,” a vendor in Paris told Agence France-Presse. “I’ve never seen anything like it. All 450 of my copies were sold out in 15 minutes.”

The choice of an image of Muhammad for the first cover since the shootings raised fears in some parts of the Islamic world that it would exacerbate tensions. In Egypt, one of Islam’s highest authorities complained about the likely effect of the cartoon, recalling the wide protests that roiled the Muslim world after a Danish newspaper lampooned the prophet in cartoons in 2005.

But supporters of Charlie Hebdo defended the cover as a tribute to its slain cartoonists. “I have no worries about the cover,” the cartoonist who drew it, Renald Luzier, who uses the pen name Luz, told reporters. “We have confidence in people’s intelligence, and we have confidence in humor. The people who did this attack, they have no sense of humor.”

“I’m sorry we’ve drawn him yet again,” he added, “but the Muhammad we’ve drawn is a man who is crying.”

In Turkey, which is predominantly Muslim, a secular newspaper, Cumhuriyet, said on Wednesday that the police had checked the newspaper’s content after it decided to print some of the caricatures from the newest edition of Charlie Hebdo, The Associated Press reported.

The police allowed the newspaper to be distributed after finding that it had not reprinted the contentious cover showing Muhammad.

In Britain, more than 50 prominent Muslim leaders wrote a joint open letter appealing for calm.

“Most Muslims will inevitably be hurt, offended and upset” by the latest cartoons, the letter said. “But our reaction must be a reflection of the teachings of the gentle and merciful character” of Muhammad.

The best way to respond, it said, was to display “enduring patience, tolerance, gentleness and mercy.”

[Erasmus Folly]

Charlie Hebdo’s Defiant Muhammad Cover Fuels Debate on Free Speech

PARIS — Immediately upon unveiling its new cover — a depiction of Muhammad — the French satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo on Tuesday reignited the debate pitting free speech against religious sensitivities that has embroiled Europe since 12 people were killed during an attack on its Paris offices by Muslim extremists a week ago.

The cover shows the bearded prophet shedding a tear and holding up a sign saying, “I am Charlie,” the rallying cry that has become synonymous with support of the newspaper and free expression. Above the cartoon on a green background is the headline “All is forgiven.”

While surviving staff members, at an emotional news conference, described their choice of cover as a show of forgiveness, most Muslims consider any depiction of their prophet to be blasphemous. Moreover, interpretations quickly swirled around the Internet that the cartoon also contained disguised crudity.

One of Egypt’s highest Islamic authorities warned that the cartoon would exacerbate tensions between the secular West and observant Muslims, while death threats circulated online against staff members.

A preacher, Anjem Choudary, the former leader of a radical group that was banned in Britain, was quoted by a British newspaper, The Independent, as saying that the image was “an act of war” that would be punishable by death if judged in a Shariah court.

Beyond new threats — and the potential for more violence after a week in which both mosques and Jewish sites were attacked — the persistence of what many Muslims see as continuing provocations opened complaints about a double standard in European countries, whose bans on hate speech some see as seeming to stop short of forbidding ridicule of Islam.

“If freedom of expression can be sacrificed for criminalizing incitement and hatred, why not for insulting the Prophet of Allah?” Mr. Choudary wrote last week on Twitter on the same day as the massacre at Charlie Hebdo, during which the attackers indicated they were avenging Muhammad for the newspaper’s insults.

Supporters of the iconoclastic newspaper defended the cover as a fitting and defiant tribute to Charlie Hebdo’s slain cartoonists. “I have no worries about the cover,” the cartoonist who drew it, Renald Luzier, who uses the pen name Luz, told assembled reporters at the offices of the newspaper Libération, which the Charlie Hedbo staff has used since the attack. “We have confidence in people’s intelligence, and we have confidence in humor. The people who did this attack, they have no sense of humor.”

“I’m sorry we’ve drawn him yet again,” he added, “but the Muhammad we’ve drawn is a man who is crying.”

Laurent Léger, an investigative journalist with Charlie Hebdo, shrugged off the idea, circulating on social media, that the cartoon contained one or even two hidden renderings of male genitals. “People can see what they want to see, but a cartoon is a cartoon,” he said. “It is not a photograph.”
Muslim leaders as far away as Egypt condemned Charlie Hebdo, recalling threats received by a Danish newspaper in 2005 after it, too, published cartoons satirizing Muhammad.

Elsa Ray, the spokeswoman of the Paris-based Collective Against Islamophobia in France, declined to react specifically to the new cartoon, but said that cartoons that lampooned Muhammad breached the limits of decency and insulted Muslims. “The freedom of expression may be guaranteed by the French Constitution, but there is a limit when it goes too far and turns into hatred, and stigmatization,” she said.

Moreover, she argued that the failure of French courts to clamp down on cartoons satirizing Muhammad was a double standard, given the robustness of action taken when Jews were insulted by cartoonists or artists, including Dieudonné M’bala M’bala, a comedian, who in 2013 came under the scrutiny of courts, which banned a series of his shows.

Mr. M’bala M’bala has said it was a shame that a Jewish journalist had not been killed in the gas chambers. He has also come under fire for popularizing a gesture that strongly resembles a Nazi salute.

In a statement on his Facebook page after Sunday’s enormous unity march in Paris, Mr. M’bala M’bala expressed his admiration for Amedy Coulibaly, the gunman behind the killings at a kosher supermarket. “As far as I am concerned, I feel I am Charlie Coulibaly,” he wrote, alluding to the “I am Charlie” rallying cry. The Paris prosecutor’s office said Monday it had opened an investigation to determine if Mr. M’bala M’bala should be charged with promoting terrorism.

Mr. M’bala M’bala said he was being unfairly targeted.
French laws safeguard the freedom of speech, but there are many exceptions to the rule.

Prime Minister Manuel Valls told the National Assembly on Tuesday that “blasphemy” was not in French law and never would be. But he refused to draw any analogy between the satirists of Charlie Hebdo and Mr. M’bala M’bala.

“There is a fundamental difference,” he said.

Some cultural observers praised Charlie Hebdo for upholding Western values of liberal democracy, even at risk of violence. Flemming Rose, the former cultural editor of the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, whose 2005 publication of cartoons lampooning Muhammad — including one with his turban depicted as a lit fuse — drew violent recriminations that reverberated across the world, recalled that the publication of the cartoons resulted in a fatwa against him by a radical cleric, threats against the newspaper and one of its cartoonists, and attacks against Danish embassies in the Middle East.
Mr. Rose said in an interview that Jyllands-Posten had decided not to publish the latest Charlie Hebdo caricature for fear the newspaper would be targeted again. Still, he said it was imperative that Western newspapers not surrender to Islamic radicals.

“We aren’t republishing the Charlie Hebdo cartoons because we are afraid,” he said. “But I know well that if you give in to intimidation, it works.”
His comments reflect the debate that last’s week attacks have ignited in newsrooms and in the streets and cafes in Europe.

Jérôme Fenoglio, the managing editor of Le Monde, said his paper had decided to publish the Charlie Hebdo cartoon on its cover because “it is an important document that we wanted to show to everybody.” The cartoon, Mr. Fenoglio said, “didn’t carry any insulting message.”

This cover is not about free-speech, it is about LOVE - The loving of the gone journalists & the loving of disagreement itself! Conflicts are...
“We defend our right to be able to publish any cartoon, but never those which would be aggressive,” Mr. Fenoglio said. Though he said that some of Charlie Hebdo’s caricatures were “not funny” and could “uselessly” offend people, “each paper makes its own judgment.”

“Freedom of the press is an absolute right,” Mr. Fenoglio said, “but each paper has its own free will, and chooses what seems pertinent or not.”
Some American newspapers, including The New York Times, did not reproduce the Charlie Hedbo cartoons (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/world/europe/new-charlie-hebdo-cover-creates-new-questions-for-us-news-media.html) that mocked Islam. The Times called the decision an editorial judgment that reflected its standards for content that is deemed offensive and gratuitous.

The decision drew criticism from some free-speech advocates who called it cowardly in the face of a terrorist attack, which the newspaper disputed.
“Actually, we have republished some of the Charlie Hebdo cartoons, including a caricature of the head of ISIS, as well as some political cartoons,” Dean Baquet, the executive editor of The Times, said in a statement. “We do not normally publish images or other material deliberately intended to offend religious sensibilities.”

The Washington Post, which published a single previous Charlie Hebdo cartoon of Muhammad on its printed op-ed page last Thursday, republished the new cover on its website on Tuesday. Martin Baron, the newspaper’s executive editor, said the images did not violate its editorial standards.
“It has to be deliberately, pointedly, needlessly offensive,” Mr. Baron said.
More publications have published or plan to reproduce Charlie Hebdo’s newest cover online. Three million copies of the newspaper will be published on Wednesday in 16 languages.

The proliferation of the cartoons is heightening concern that the already precarious climate in Europe will worsen, with the possibility of more violence. Some newspapers that reproduced the cartoons in solidarity after last week’s attack have themselves been threatened or targeted already.
A Belgian newspaper, Le Soir, received an anonymous call Sunday from someone threatening that “it’s going to blow in your newsroom.”

The same day, in Germany, stones and an incendiary object were thrown through the windows of the headquarters of a newspaper, Hamburger Morgenpost, damaging the archive but causing no injuries.

Khalil Charles, spokesman for the Muslim Association of Britain, said free speech had been allowed to defy common sense and had given way to insults. Referring to last week’s attacks, he added: “Muslims are appalled, like everyone, about what happened. But this is criminality that should not be attached to Islam, and the Prophet should not be attacked as a result.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/world/europe/new-charlie-hebdo-has-muhammad-cartoon.html?rref=homepage&module=Ribbon&version=origin&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Home%20Page&pgtype=article

[christine]

Ashdoc - that's a strangely disjointed article that reads in the most part like an advert for visiting the Eiffel Tower!
There's nothing in there that makes me think there will be a crescent on the top any time soon.
With reference to European women’s supposed inability to maintain fertility rate which is used as a reason why there will be more Muslims than anyone else in future, I've always thought that once immigrants have gone beyond second and third generation, and have gone through the education system of the country where their parents have settled then they grow into the original culture of that country. The economy makes it unviable to have a lot of children anyway.

[ashdoc]

Ashdoc - that's a strangely disjointed article that reads in the most part like an advert for visiting the Eiffel Tower!


this is an advert for visiting the eiffel tower ??

As long as the Muslim women dress modestly, esteem their chastity, honor family values, maintain fertility rate and teach their sons also to do the same, I hereby predict, without any other reservations that in two generations, they will be able to have a million woman march to the Eiffel Tower and say that unless a crescent is installed on the top of the Tower, Muslims will financially boycott the Tower for the coming decade and the Government will negotiate and yield. If not on the top of the Tower certainly by its side.

[matt72582]

I see too many double standards.. They throw a mild insult at Christianity or Judaism to show they are so "fair and balanced"

[Yoda]

Who are "they"?

I don't think that's true, regardless. Extreme insults are hurled at Christianity all the time, and as far as I can tell 0.0 of them result in murder. The number of beheading victims resulting from a crucifix submerged in urine, for example, can be counted on no hands.

[matt72582]

I've been watching (though I wish not to) all the mainstream and even other news on TV. Not one mention of the Copenhagen Christian extremist who killed twice as more.

As they say, the US is a Christian nation, ok, let's say the Government is... No one mentioned how Christianity was the reason for the new CIA abuses. Some of the men who died in Guantanamo weren't charged, some were innocent it appears, but the Christianity part is left out. What about the war in Iraq? No WMDs (I thought they'd at least plant some), but that's not a religion.

The news doesn't show everything anyway. Even when al-Jazeera was bombed twice by Christian Fundamentalists (Bush), it was barely mentioned.

It's cherry picking, and I don't want to give the vibe that I'm anti-Islamic, I'm anti-religion.

[Yoda]

Er, first off, that has literally nothing to do with what you were just saying, or my response to it.

Second, it's ridiculous to pretend that, because the U.S. is made up predominantly of Christians, therefore everything it does is labeled a Christian action. This is a very clumsy way to try to rationalize a moral equivalence. It makes only slightly more sense than saying any country which has more of one race than another is therefore doing all things in the name of that race.

Third, even if this were not a completely untenable way of assigning blame to large groups of people, it still wouldn't be comparable, because the things you mention were not justified or described as being religiously motivated by the people who carried them out, whereas the attacks in question were, explicitly.

[ashdoc]

As they say, the US is a Christian nation, ok, let's say the Government is... No one mentioned how Christianity was the reason for the new CIA abuses. Some of the men who died in Guantanamo weren't charged, some were innocent it appears, but the Christianity part is left out. What about the war in Iraq? No WMDs (I thought they'd at least plant some), but that's not a religion.

The news doesn't show everything anyway. Even when al-Jazeera was bombed twice by Christian Fundamentalists (Bush), it was barely mentioned.



the US does not shout from the rooftops that it is doing what it does for christianity , while the terrorists who massacre innocents in the name of islam shout from the rooftops that they are doing what they did for islam .

[christine]

this is an advert for visiting the eiffel tower ??


This lot reads like an advert for the Eiffel Tower to me!

Even those Muslim women who have not heard about the Eiffel Tower or only have a longish dream to visit it can help out in a big way.

The Eiffel Tower (French: La Tour Eiffel, [tuʁ ɛfɛl]) is an iron lattice tower located on the Champ de Mars in Paris, named after the engineer Gustave Eiffel, whose company designed and built the tower. Erected in 1889 as the entrance arch to the 1889 World’s Fair, it has become both a global cultural icon of France and one of the most recognizable structures in the world. The tower is the tallest structure in Paris[10] and the most-visited paid monument in the world; 7.1 million people ascended it in 2011. The third level observatory’s upper platform is at 279.11 m the highest accessible to public in the European Union and the highest in Europe as long as the platform of the Ostankino Tower, at 360 m, remains closed as a result of the fire of August 2000. The tower received its 250 millionth visitor in 2010.

The tower stands 320 metres (1,050 ft) tall, about the same height as an 81-storey building. During its construction, the Eiffel Tower surpassed the Washington Monument to assume the title of the tallest man-made structure in the world, a title it held for 41 years, until the Chrysler Building in New York City was built in 1930. However, because of the addition, in 1957, of the antenna atop the Eiffel Tower, it is now taller than the Chrysler Building. Not including broadcast antennas, it is the second-tallest structure in France, after the Millau Viaduct.

The tower has three levels for visitors. Tickets can be purchased to ascend, by stairs or lift (elevator), to the first and second levels. The walk from ground level to the first level is over 300 steps, as is the walk from the first to the second level. The third and highest level is accessible only by lift – stairs exist but they are not usually open for public use. Both the first and second levels feature restaurants.

The tower has become the most prominent symbol of both Paris and France, often in the establishing shot of films set in the city.

[christine]

I see too many double standards.. They throw a mild insult at Christianity or Judaism to show they are so "fair and balanced"

which article are you referring to Matt?

Charlie Hebdo is indiscriminate in it's satire of religion.

[matt72582]

I like Charlie Hebdo, but I find most of the satirists mostly mention Islam, which is fine, I find it the most conservative. I just don't like how people forget the violence (in book or in practice) of Christianity or Judaism. I support free speech, but it should apply to everyone.

And Ash, just because a guy isn't screaming on top of a roof doesn't make it invalid. That's silly.

[matt72582]

Aziz Ansari tweeted something to Murdoch saying, "Shouldn't you and all Christians apologize for paedophilia?"

When it's the powerful religions, there exceptions. When 2 brothers do something, it's the entire religion.

No one ever mentions religion in itself is the problem, how irrational it is.

[ashdoc]

This lot reads like an advert for the Eiffel Tower to me!

Even those Muslim women who have not heard about the Eiffel Tower or only have a longish dream to visit it can help out in a big way.

The Eiffel Tower (French: La Tour Eiffel, [tuʁ ɛfɛl]) is an iron lattice tower located on the Champ de Mars in Paris, named after the engineer Gustave Eiffel, whose company designed and built the tower. Erected in 1889 as the entrance arch to the 1889 World’s Fair, it has become both a global cultural icon of France and one of the most recognizable structures in the world. The tower is the tallest structure in Paris[10] and the most-visited paid monument in the world; 7.1 million people ascended it in 2011. The third level observatory’s upper platform is at 279.11 m the highest accessible to public in the European Union and the highest in Europe as long as the platform of the Ostankino Tower, at 360 m, remains closed as a result of the fire of August 2000. The tower received its 250 millionth visitor in 2010.

The tower stands 320 metres (1,050 ft) tall, about the same height as an 81-storey building. During its construction, the Eiffel Tower surpassed the Washington Monument to assume the title of the tallest man-made structure in the world, a title it held for 41 years, until the Chrysler Building in New York City was built in 1930. However, because of the addition, in 1957, of the antenna atop the Eiffel Tower, it is now taller than the Chrysler Building. Not including broadcast antennas, it is the second-tallest structure in France, after the Millau Viaduct.

The tower has three levels for visitors. Tickets can be purchased to ascend, by stairs or lift (elevator), to the first and second levels. The walk from ground level to the first level is over 300 steps, as is the walk from the first to the second level. The third and highest level is accessible only by lift – stairs exist but they are not usually open for public use. Both the first and second levels feature restaurants.

The tower has become the most prominent symbol of both Paris and France, often in the establishing shot of films set in the city.

yes , it makes the eiffel tower attractive for muslims in the first part , and in the later part of the article asks them to put a crescent on top of it .

[donniedarko]

The thing is I see your source and I'm not doubting it but the very state of being young is to have swagger and to be testing and saying extreme things to anyone doing a poll . I'd like to see some proper research into how young Muslims are being radicalised within European countries and how much help the European governments are giving to the Islamic establishment groups like The British Islamic Council to counter this. More importantly what we're going to do about our youngsters (they are our youth, not Muslim youth, they're British youth) being radicalised into extreme groups of whatever religious or political persuasions .You can see from the figures above broken down by country that there's massive differences - we should be finding out why.

I would think part of it has to do with integration


Besides you can't give someone 18 months in jail for thinking something. That's a state I don't want to live in.

Not just thinking but acting on it. Honestly the two brothers should have been rotting behind bars

[donniedarko]

Aziz Ansari tweeted something to Murdoch saying, "Shouldn't you and all Christians apologize for paedophilia?"


It's considered a Catholic problem, among priests. And it's a huge issue in the church. But I've never heard of any priest molesting children in the name of religion.

[donniedarko]

Sky News is run by pussies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMbwcBYT0DI

[Choo Yao Chuen]

I just hope relatives and friends of those who lost their lives find inner peace soon and move on, and that the french people recover from this tragic event. RIP to those who lost their lives.

[matt72582]

It's considered a Catholic problem, among priests. And it's a huge issue in the church. But I've never heard of any priest molesting children in the name of religion.

Do you actually think a priest could say they rape kids in the name of religion. Ashdoc made another similar analogy. The act is enough. You don't need a "I molest kids because I'm a Christian" T-Shirt... It's been going on for YEARS, and we know factually it's been hidden also by the church. I love those "We'll investigate ourselves" BS..

And the sad thing is, most kids don't ever say anything out of fear, shame, etc.. Just like rape.

[Yoda]

Huh? How is that a response to what he said?

You're making no distinction between a religious person doing something, and doing it in the name of that religion. That makes zero sense, and the fact that you have to resort to such an obviously forced moral equivalence proves that the two acts aren't comparable in this context.

It doesn't even make sense if you ignore this obvious difference, because the scandals caused a lot of people to question Catholicism's teachings on this matter, and wonder aloud whether or not their strictures on priests helped contribute to the problem. Pretty much the exact same thing people are asking about Islam.

[Erasmus Folly]

Here you are Ms Brigitte Gabriel, founder, president and CEO of Act! America. Here's the 'irrelevant peaceful majority'

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9971194.ece/alternates/w940/Paris-Demonstration.jpg

Over three million people turned out to show solidarity in France today
And here's another 'irrevelant' muslim:

Muslim who helped hide kosher market's customers to become a French citizen

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150110210901-lassana-bathily-large-169.jpg

(CNN) Lassana Bathily risked his own life to help save others; he is a Muslim who protected Jews in the face of an armed terrorist.

Now the French government is helping out Bathily -- by making him a citizen.

The Malian native's citizenship application, which he filed in July 2014, will be expedited, Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve announced on Thursday. Cazeneuve will conduct Bathily's citizenship ceremony himself on January 20.

This event will add to what has been an emotional few weeks for Bathily, starting with his heroic actions last Friday, after a gunman burst in while he was working at the kosher Hyper Cacher grocery store, near Paris' Porte de Vincennes. The man took several people hostage, but not the 15 that Bathily led downstairs into a walk-in freezer. Bathily, who describes himself as a "practicing Muslim," told CNN affiliate BFMTV he switched off the freezer, turned off the lights and told everyone to stay calm. "I'm the one (who) is going to go out," the 24-year-old reportedly told the customers. "I took the elevator and went upstairs."

Bathily told BFMTV that he went up after the hostage-taker -- whom authorities have identified as Amedy Coulibaly -- "asked us to all come upstairs."

If they didn't? "Otherwise, he would kill everyone who was downstairs," the young man said.

So Bathily did go upstairs, taking up a freight elevator. But he didn't go toward Coulibaly. Instead, he ran outside. Police apprehended Bathily there, and he told them the location of the freezer and gave details about those inside.

"When (the hostages) came out, they congratulated me," Bathily told BFMTV.

That's because his actions might have saved their lives. Four people, plus the gunman, ended up being killed by the time the hostage situation ended.French media quickly ran with the story of Bathily, with L'Express newspaper proclaiming "Lassana Bathily, "Malian Muslim, hero of the hostage situation in Vincennes."

People around the world also cheered Bathily, with about 300,000 signing a Change.org petition asking that he be given Legion d'Honneur, a highly prestigious award given to those who done exceptional things for France.

"Even in darkness and desolation, there's always a ray of light somewhere," wrote the petition's creator, Thiaba Bruni. "Such is the case with Lassana Bathily."

Such positive recognition was also all over Facebook, where a man who claimed to be Bathily's cousin, Abdoul Bathily, posted, "Lass Bathily, you showed courage yesterday. The rest of the world would not have done it."

Another person wrote, "I have no words to express my pride in you. You put your life in danger to save others. God saw all of it, and his mercy will be without fault. You are blessed in the eyes of humanity."

[Cobpyth]

Three Islamic terrorists have just been shot here in Belgium (two are dead). They came back from Syria and were planning a terrorist attack.

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/01/15/sot-wolf-belgium-anti-terror-raid-deaths.cnn

[honeykid]

I saw that'd happened on the news. It was very brief, so there weren't many details.

[matt72582]

Always the copycat effect... At what point should the media stop giving assassins the attention they wanted? Not to mention the groups they might be with. Every thing is "Breaking News" and it's old. Piecemeal news.

We have another breaking report of a missile heading towards.... right after these messages.

[honeykid]

Rolling news is one of my big bugbears, though I don't know if this was a copycat or not.

I've not really looked at it, so I might have the wrong end of the stick here, but I see some people talking about the Pope and what he said about reacting with violence. Now, while I see their point in that he's the Pope, God's emissary on Earth and leader of the Catholic Christians and Chirst saying turn the other cheek and all that. With that criticism I'm fine, however, some of the criticism seems to be that, in light of recent events, he should be trying to calm religious tensions rather than inferring that they (the terrorists) had some justification for their actions as they'd been provoked. Were these people speaking out against this weeks edition of Charlie Hebdon?

I understand what they did and why they did it and, of course, they have the right to do it and not fear any threat or violence from it. However, larger picture? Would it have been 'better' to've had a blank page or soemthing and acknowledge that, yes we could've posted a picture of Mohammed crying with the message "Je Suis Charie" and we might do next week, the week after and forever, but as we also have the right not to, we decided, given the last week, not to.

[ashdoc]

How Edward Gibbon's quote might come true without war---

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/03/gibbon-oxford-and-islam