The Young Turk's Top 100 Films - Revised

[the-young-turk]

After suffering illness this past month I feel my film taste has changed significantly, and so have the films that I would deem the greatest ever made. Therefore I have decided to rethink my list, and create another list of 100 films I believe to be the greatest 100 films ever made. The list shall be posted shortly.

[the-young-turk]

1. Mirror (1973) – Andrei Tarkovsky
2. The Red Shoes (1948) – Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger
3. Bande A Part (1964) – Jean-Luc Godard
4. Persona (1966) – Ingmar Bergman
5. Late Spring (1951) – Yasujiro Ozu
6. Strike (1925) – Sergei Eisenstein
7. High and Low (1963) – Akira Kurosawa
8. Pickpocket (1959) – Robert Bresson
9. Rome, Open City (1945) – Roberto Rossellini
10. Accattone (1961) – Pier Paolo Passolini
11. Blow Up (1963) – Michelangelo Antonioni
12. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) – Stanley Kubrick
13. Sacrifice (1987) – Andrei Tarkovsky
14. Ikiru (1952) – Akira Kurosawa
15. Charaluta (1964) – Satyajit Ray
16. A Man With A Movie Camera (1929) – Dziga Vertov
17. Sunrise (1927) – FW Murnau
18. 8 ½ (1963) – Federico Fellini
19. The Seventh Seal (1957) – Ingmar Bergman
20. Rashomon (1950) – Akira Kurosawa
21. Ordet (1955) – Carl Theodor Dreyer
22. Bitter Victory (1957) – Nicholas Ray
23. Tokyo Story (1953) – Yasujiro Ozu
24. Saturday Night and Sunday Morning (1960) – Karel Reisz
25. The Gospel According to St. Matthew (1964) – Pier Paolo Passolini
26. Rebel Without a Cause (1955) – Nicholas Ray
27. M (1931) – Fritz Lang
28. Sunset Blvd. (1950) – Billy Wilder
29. Black Narcissus (1947) – Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger
30. City Lights (1931) – Charles Chaplin
31. Casablanca (1942) – Michael Curtiz
32. Apocalypse Now (1979) – Francis Ford Coppola
33. Taxi Driver (1976) – Martin Scorsese
34. Citizen Kane (1941) – Orson Welles
35. Wings of Desire (1987) – Wim Wenders
36. Ugetsu (1953) – Kenji Mizoguchi
37. Wild Strawberries (1957) – Ingmar Bergman
38. Breathless (1960) – Jean-Luc Godard
39. La Regle du Jeu (1939) – Jean Renoir
40. Johnny Guitar (1954) – Nicholas Ray
41. A Matter of Life and Death (1946) – Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger
42. Hobson’s Choice (1954) – David Lean
43. Early Summer (1951) – Yasujiro Ozu
44. Belle de Jour (1967) – Luis Bunuel
45. A Short Film About Killing (1988) – Krzysztof Kieslowski
46. Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) – Sergio Leone
47. Ivan’s Childhood (1962) – Andrei Tarkovsky
48. Seven Samurai (1954) – Akira Kurosawa
49. The Third Man (1949) – Carol Reed
50. Summer With Monika (1953) – Ingmar Bergman
51. A Story of Floating Weeds (1934) – Yasujiro Ozu
52. Fear Eats the Soul (1974) – Rainer Werner Fassbinder
53. Some Like It Hot (1955) – Billy Wilder
54. Pather Panchali (1955) – Satyajit Ray
55. Modern Times (1936) – Charles Chaplin
56. Goodfellas (1990) – Martin Scorsese
57. The Passion of Joan of Arc (1928) – Carl Theodor Dreyer
58. Alphaville (1965) – Jean-Luc Godard
59. Dr. Strangelove: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1963) Stanley Kubrick
60. L’Avventura (1960) – Michelangelo Antonioni
61. Mon Oncle (1958) – Jacques Tati
62. The Godfather part II (1974) – Francis Ford Coppola
63. Earth (1930) – Alexander Dovzhenko
64. The Godfather (1972) – Francis Ford Coppola
65. Solaris (1972) – Andrei Tarkovsky
66. The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie (1972) – Luis Bunuel
67. If… (1968) – Lindsay Anderson
68. Black Orpheus (1959) – Marcel Camus
69. Great Expectations (1946) – David Lean
70. The Conversation (1974) – Francis Ford Coppola
71. The Life of Oharu (1952) – Kenji Mizoguchi
72. Paris, Texas (1984) – Wim Wenders
73. Paths of Glory (1957) – Stanley Kubrick
74. The Perfect Human (1967) – Jorgen Leth
75. La Grande Illusion (1937) – Jean Renoir
76. Throne of Blood (1957) – Akira Kurosawa
77. Vampyr (1932) – Carl Theodor Dreyer
78. Peeping Tom (1960) – Michael Powell
79. Double Indemnity (1944) – Billy Wilder
80. The 400 Blows (1959) – Francois Truffaut
81. Edward Munch (1974) – Peter Watkins
82. La Ballon Rouge (1956) – Albert Lamorisse
83. Weekend (1967) – Jean-Luc Godard
84. The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (1966) – Sergio Leone
85. Secrets and Lies (1996) – Mike Leigh
86. Bigger Than Life (1956) – Nicholas Ray
87. Soviet Toys (1924) – Dziga Vertov
88. I Am Cuba (1964) – Mikhail Kalatozov
89. Rio Bravo (1959) – Howard Hawks
90. Festen (1998) – Thomas Vinterberg
91. Nostalghia (1983) – Andrei Tarkovsky
92. The Big Sleep (1946) – Howard Hawks
93. The Piano (1993) – Jane Campion
94. A Place in the Sun (1951) – George Setevens
95. La Belle et la Bete (1946) – Jean Cocteau
96. Jules et Jim (1962) – Francois Truffaut
97. The Trial (1962) – Orson Welles
98. Au Hasard Balthasar (1966) – Robert Bresson
99. Nymphomaniac I & II (2014) – Lars von Trier
100. A Page of Madness (1926) – Teinoskue Kinugasa

A few comments on the list, you will notice that none of the films of Alfred Hitchcock, Quentin Tarantino, or Elia Kazan are present. This is as though I believe their films are entertaining I have reasoning behind why each one of them cannot be seen as credible or influential. Also, this is a list of what I believe are the best films ever made, however it is completely opinion based.

[seanc]

I know maybe I should have got something else out of your list but did you just say Hitchcock and Tarantino were not influential? It may be for better or worse, I say better, but they are probably the two most influential directors of their era.

[the-young-turk]

I would have to disagree, especially with Tarantino, there is no one less influential, the man makes glorified grindhouse films that are yes entertaining, but are they art? I'd have to say no.

[Arcanis]

Beyond Tarantino, how does Hitchcock not count as influential nor credible? I find this especially odd, given that you included Peeping Tom on the list, which combined with Psycho formed the blueprints for the Slasher sub-genre (and I would strongly argue that Psycho is both the better and more influential of the two).

I absolutely love The Celebration, I have to say. It's an immeasurably underrated and )especially) underseen film.

[the-young-turk]

And on Hitchcock, his horrific misogyny is beyond any other director's, so to not renounce him would be doing film an injustice. His films are ripe with misogyny, and to me this makes them unbearable.

[Daniel M]

And on Hitchcock, his horrific misogyny is beyond any other director's, so to not renounce him would be doing film an injustice. His films are ripe with misogyny, and to me this makes them unbearable.

Examples?

[the-young-turk]

The entirety of Vertigo

[matt72582]

Nice list, but Kazan is one of the greatest ever.. What's the reason for omitting him?

[Yoda]

I don't follow the logic here, in at least two places. The first being the conflation of Hitchcock's personal views (or Tarantino's homages/borrowing/steailng/whatever from other sources) with his influence; they have nothing to do with one another. Terrible people can be influential.

The second is the idea that you are somehow "doing film an injustice" by not "renouncing" him. Film is an abstract category. It cannot suffer injustices. People, however, can.

[seanc]

To you and that's fine. That is not the definition of influential though. After Pulp Fiction was released it is impossible to count the number of film makers that made movies influenced by it in the past twenty years. Personally, even though I don't love all the copycats, I like it. Stylistically he has been influential of course, but for me he brought dialogue back to genre. That's what I appreciate about him the most. I know there are some 80's fans on the forum that this will probably upset, but that is something that was sorely lacking from genre during that decade.

So while I can appreciate you not enjoying Tarantino's style, to say he is not an influential director is dead wrong in my opinion.

[Daniel M]

How is Vertigo in any way misogynistic? I don't get it. It deals with personal themes of obsession and desire, with the main character being obsessive and controlling over a woman he loves, if you think he acts inappropriately or offensively, even then I don't think you can call the film or Hitchcock misogynistic. It in no way degrades woman or is indicative in any way that Hitchcock thinks less of women than he should, it's not secret that he loved his films to feature attractive, blonde women, and I don't see any problem with that. James Stewart character is human and actually falls victim to the control of a woman instead of the other way round, its about how our obsessions and way we act can be driven by lust and relationships.

Could you explain why it is misogynistic in your opinion?

[the-young-turk]

Nice list, but Kazan is one of the greatest ever.. What's the reason for omitting him?

Kazan worked with some brilliant actors yes, but when I see his name I also see the many careers he destroyed through the House of Unamerican Activities. Gregory Peck says you should separate the man from his work, however as I am a strong believer in Les Politique des Auteurs I cannot do so.

[rauldc14]

Well, at least you got Wilder on there. Hitchcock is my favorite director ever so it's disappointing not to see him on here but laughable that you don't think he's influential. Even if you don't like him. I like Kazan too.

[the-young-turk]

How is Vertigo in any way misogynistic? I don't get it. It deals with personal themes of obsession and desire, with the main character being obsessive and controlling over a woman he loves, if you think he acts inappropriately or offensively, even then I don't think you can call the film or Hitchcock misogynistic. It in no way degrades woman or is indicative in any way that Hitchcock thinks less of women than he should, it's not secret that he loved his films to feature attractive, blonde women, and I don't see any problem with that. James Stewart character is human and actually falls victim to the control of a woman instead of the other way round, its about how our obsessions and way we act can be driven by lust and relationships.

Could you explain why it is misogynistic in your opinion?

In the film Vertigo Hitchcock reduced women to two stereotypes, either they are something for men to long for, or they are a motherlike figure who will try to look after men and care for them. There are two living female characters in Vertigo, each one fits into one of the stereotypes. Also, James Stewart's Scottie following Kim Novak's Judy, and forcing her to dress like Madeline is completely romanticized by Hitchcock. This is how Vertigo is misogynistic.

There is no need to answer how Hitchcock is misogynistic. We need just look at how he treated Tippi Hedren due to the fact that she would not sleep with the man.

[Yoda]

I don't see how the auteur theory leads you to conflate personal lives with professional ones at all. It simply means that films are primarily the product of the director's vision--it in no way implies that this "vision" is necessarily a clear reflection of their politics or personal relationships. They may or may not be.

As for Kazan, he's already movingly responded to the accusation you're leveling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XLbRI0kdLg
Saying he "destroyed" people's career is false at worst, and incredibly simplistic at best.

[Daniel M]

And if anything I think the politic actions of Elia Kazan make his work ever more fascinating and influential. The same with Hitchcock's personal desire and obsessions. Auteur theory regards Hitchcock as one of the greatest for the reasons you seem to dismiss him.

[BlueLion]

I would have to disagree, especially with Tarantino, there is no one less influential, the man makes glorified grindhouse films that are yes entertaining, but are they art? I'd have to say no.

Are Pickpocket and Band of Outsiders art? I'd have to say no.

[the-young-turk]

I don't follow the logic here, in at least two places. The first being the conflation of Hitchcock's personal views (or Tarantino's homages/borrowing/steailng/whatever from other sources) with his influence; they have nothing to do with one another. Terrible people can be influential.

The second is the idea that you are somehow "doing film an injustice" by not "renouncing" him. Film is an abstract category. It cannot suffer injustices. People, however, can.

Well then rather it would be immoral of me to do so.

And influentialwise, yes that is right terrible people can be influential, I just do not take Hitchcock's influence into account.

[Daniel M]

In the film Vertigo Hitchcock reduced women to two stereotypes, either they are something for men to long for, or they are a motherlike figure who will try to look after men and care for them.

I don't think this is a particularly unreasonable stereotype, especially throughout the eyes of men who can be naive as you could describe James Stewart's character, he becomes so driven by his obsession that he fails to see women as anything else but objects that he can control. That is what makes the film fascinating. You have missed the point of the film I think.

Also, James Stewart's Scottie following Kim Novak's Judy, and forcing her to dress like Madeline is completely romanticized by Hitchcock.

Again, yes, this is meant to be uncomfortable and show what obsession can do. We're not meant to be supporting and enjoying everything that happens. Vertigo is a haunting movie the deals with many dark themes successfully

There is no need to answer how Hitchcock is misogynistic. We need just look at how he treated Tippi Hedren due to the fact that she would not sleep with the man.

Accusations which don't really seem to have that much basis.

[Yoda]

Simple test of the idea that you can conflate art and personality: take your favorite movie. The most moving, glorious, inspiring work of cinematic art you've ever seen.

Now, imagine you discover the director is an awful person. Does it magically become bad? Of course not.

[the-young-turk]

Are Pickpocket and Band of Outsiders art? I'd have to say no.

You'd be naive.

[the-young-turk]

Simple test of the idea that you can conflate art and personality: take your favorite movie. The most moving, glorious, inspiring work of cinematic art you've ever seen.

Now, imagine you discover the director is an awful person. Does it magically become bad? Of course not.

No, but directors put themselves into their films.

[Daniel M]

Even if a film was to contain a misogynistic character, it does not in anyway make the film misogynistic or the director so.

[the-young-turk]

I would like to point out that this list is completely opinion based. Yes, you may all think Hitchcock is a lovely chubby British man with a cigar, well I disagree, I was merely explaining why he is not on my list.

[Yoda]

No, but directors put themselves into their films.
Correct. And they can put the good parts in, and the bad parts in, and in many cases bad people put their better characteristics into the films. Which is why it makes sense to make a distinction between the two.

I don't have any problem with ignoring films because you don't want to support objectionable people. Totally reasonable. But it's important to say that this is what you're doing, rather than acting as if it's actually a part of the work, and judging it as a film for things that exist outside the film.

[jiraffejustin]

Other than those omissions, this is a pretty good list. :up:for Band of Outsiders being so high.

[Cobpyth]

I would have to disagree, especially with Tarantino, there is no one less influential, the man makes glorified grindhouse films that are yes entertaining, but are they art? I'd have to say no.

And the first rude sketch that the world had seen was joy to his mighty heart,
Till the Devil whispered behind the leaves: "It's pretty, but is it Art?"

And on Hitchcock, his horrific misogyny is beyond any other director's, so to not renounce him would be doing film an injustice. His films are ripe with misogyny, and to me this makes them unbearable.

Just labeling Hitchcock's complete filmography as misogynistic and therefore irrelevant is extremely short-sighted and shows inordinate ignorance in terms of his undeniable influence on modern cinema. Not featuring one of his films in your personal top 100 is one thing, but completely renouncing him as a filmmaker and calling it justice to the art of cinema is absolutely indefensible.

The entirety of Vertigo

You'll have to substantiate your vision a little more than just calling one of his films.

----------------------

Apart from that, nice list. :)

[the-young-turk]

Correct. And they can put the good parts in, and the bad parts in, and in many cases bad people put their better characteristics into the films. Which is why it makes sense to make a distinction between the two.

I don't have any problem with ignoring films because you don't want to support objectionable people. Totally reasonable. But it's important to say that this is what you're doing, rather than acting as if it's actually a part of the work, and judging it as a film for things that exist outside the film.

I personally believe Hitchcock is misogynistic in his work, through voyeurism, this is what I was trying to convey. Hitchcock is to me, a misogynist in these films, so I do not regard them. I disregard Tarantino because well, though he is entertaining he is not what I would consider art, and Elia Kazan is far too right wing in his filmmaking (see On The Waterfront). This is why they are off the list, it is wonderful that other people believe otherwise, that's what makes film interesting.

[Daniel M]

Yeah, it's a great list. I really don't get the Hitchcock hate. The fact that he is regarded as one of the greatest ever directors by the people who created Auteur theory is strange too.

[the-young-turk]

Yeah, it's a great list. I really don't get the Hitchcock hate. The fact that he is regarded as one of the greatest ever directors by the people who created Auteur theory is strange too.

Yes this does bother me, I would probably enjoy his films, could I see past where I see the misogyny, it is a shame really.

[jiraffejustin]

I only like John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, and Elia Kazan because everybody else is far too left-wing for me.

[the-young-turk]

I only like John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, and Elia Kazan because everybody else is far too left-wing for me.

Then I am probably far too left wing for you, I enjoy the cinema of Pier Paolo Passolini. Also, did you know Sergio Leone was very left wing?

[BlueLion]

I'm curious to know what exactly was it that changed your mind these past two months, considering you had 6 Hitchcock films in your previous 100.

[Daniel M]

I wouldn't call On The Waterfront right-wing either, it's more blurred in its politics and when watched within the context of Kazan's actions it makes it even more fascinating.

[the-young-turk]

I wouldn't call On The Waterfront right-wing either, it's more blurred in its politics and when watched within the context of Kazan's actions it makes it even more fascinating.

You see when I saw it, all I could see was hate for the unions, and having my mum's family be destroyed by Margaret Thatcher's attack on the unions sort of influences how I see the unions.

[the-young-turk]

I'm curious to know what exactly was it that changed your mind these past two months, considering you had 6 Hitchcock films in your previous 100.

I've been reading a lot of feminist theory, and the cinema of Lars von Trier which is strongly feminist I would say.

[jiraffejustin]

Then I am probably far too left wing for you, I enjoy the cinema of Pier Paolo Passolini. Also, did you know Sergio Leone was very left wing?

Most people on here are probably far too left wing for me. The other people are probably far too right wing for me. :p

I don't really care about politics in films. I can usually look past them.

I have never seen a Pasolini film. Leone is a fantastic director, his politics mean nothing to me. :)

[the-young-turk]

Most people on here are probably far too left wing for me. The other people are probably far too right wing for me. :p

I don't really care about politics in films. I can usually look past them.

I have never seen a Pasolini film. Leone is a fantastic director, his politics mean nothing to me. :)

Passolini is brilliant, you might like him, he is surprising.

[seanc]

Congrats Turk, you managed to get more reponse with a one post list than I have in all the lists I have made here in nearly two years. Next list I make, I am just going to end it by saying, "oh by the way Bergman's a hack".

[BlueLion]

I've been reading a lot of feminist theory, and the cinema of Lars von Trier which is strongly feminist I would say.

That explains it.

[the-young-turk]

Congrats Turk, you managed to get more reponse with a one post list than I have in all the lists I have made here in nearly two years. Next list I make, I am just going to end it by saying, "oh by the way Bergman's a hack".

Go even further, renounce Kurosawa, or dare I say it... Ozu *gasp*

[jiraffejustin]

Passolini is brilliant, you might like him, he is surprising.

I am interested in his adaptation of Oedipus Rex mostly, and of course I need to see Salo. Maybe his intense left-wing approach will draw me over to the hippy side and we can all read women's lib pamphlets while we smoke the marijuana. :p;):p;)

[Cobpyth]

I'm curious to know what exactly was it that changed your mind these past two months, considering you had 6 Hitchcock films in your previous 100.

It seems to me that he simply purified it to a list that is politically correct according to his personal standards, because he probably believes that he somehow found a new, more morally appropriate way of looking at things.

[the-young-turk]

It seems to me that he simply purified it to a list that is politically correct according to his personal standards, because he probably believes that he somehow found a new, more morally appropriate way of looking at things.

No, I just y'know, have political beliefs, and if you disagree with them that is great, but it isn't your list. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, yes my view on art is conservative, but that's about the only thing that is.

[Yoda]

You see when I saw it, all I could see was hate for the unions, and having my mum's family be destroyed by Margaret Thatcher's attack on the unions sort of influences how I see the unions.
This is kind of like saying you hate Citizen Kane because your dad hit you with a rolled up newspaper.

[the-young-turk]

This is kind of like saying you hate Citizen Kane because your dad hit you with a rolled up newspaper.

No it's kind of like saying personal experience is taken into account when measuring someone's reaction, or are you one of those guys that thinks people who watch Natural Born Killers are murderers?

[Daniel M]

Vertigo is a disgusting piece of misogynistic trash that reduces women to sex objects, I much prefer that deeply profound character study that deals with dark themes of obsession, Nymphomaniac.

[the-young-turk]

Vertigo is a disgusting piece of misogynistic trash that reduces women to sex objects, I much prefer that deeply profound character study that deals with dark themes of obsession, Nymphomaniac.

Nymphomaniac is actually one of the most strongly feminist films out there, it doesn't reduce women to this innocent stereotype, it actually takes into account that women are human.

[jiraffejustin]

I think Vertigo takes into account that men are human too.

[the-young-turk]

I think Vertigo takes into account that men are human too.

As does every other film ever made.

[the-young-turk]

I think Vertigo takes into account that men are human too.

What I mean is, that isn't special, a film treating a woman as human is.

[jiraffejustin]

Good point. I hate every film ever.

[Yoda]

No it's kind of like saying personal experience is taken into account when measuring someone's reaction, or are you one of those guys that thinks people who watch Natural Born Killers are murderers?
Huh? This question is totally backwards. I'm not the one conflating morality and art. This is the kind of question I should be asking you.

I would like to point out that this list is completely opinion based. Yes, you may all think Hitchcock is a lovely chubby British man with a cigar, well I disagree, I was merely explaining why he is not on my list.
That's fine--you'll notice I haven't actually argued with his exclusion from the list. I've argue with the reasoning given, which suggests that it has something to do with his films and/or influence, when it's pretty clear it's neither. Ditto for you disliking Kazan because you like unions. These reasons are your prerogative, but you initially represented them as if they were about the films themselves, when it's quite clear now that they aren't.

[the-young-turk]

Huh? This question is totally backwards. I'm not the one conflating morality and art. This is the kind of question I should be asking you.

I believe the person is reflected in their art, therefore neither am I.

[Yoda]

Nymphomaniac is actually one of the most strongly feminist films out there, it doesn't reduce women to this innocent stereotype, it actually takes into account that women are human.
This is kind of arbitrary, isn't it? If a film by a director you don't like shows flawed women, it's misogynistic. If a film by a director you do like shows flawed women, it's showing that they're "human."

Also, how do you square your conflation of the personal and artistic with a guy like von Trier, and his history of offensive statements?

[Yoda]

I believe the person is reflected in their art, therefore neither am I.
I have no idea what this means.

[jiraffejustin]

To be fair, Hitler wasn't a misogynist.

[the-young-turk]

This is kind of arbitrary, isn't it? If a film by a director you don't like shows flawed women, it's misogynistic. If a film by a director you do like shows flawed women, it's showing that they're "human."

Also, how do you square your conflation of the personal and artistic with a guy like von Trier, and his history of offensive statements?

1. Hitchcock did not show flawed women, he flawed the women.
2. von Trier's controversy was massively blown out of proportion.

[the-young-turk]

I have no idea what this means.

Basically I answered a question and you've taken it out of context.

[jiraffejustin]

I am surprised that Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles didn't make your top 100.

[wasif]

nice list but i think some classic movies are missing in your list

[Cobpyth]

1. Hitchcock did not show flawed women, he flawed the women.

When you make statements like that, it would be more productive to substantiate them with arguments and specific examples, so we can understand better what your true issue with Hitchcock's films (not his persona) are.

Von Trier's films are definitely "feminist". I don't disagree with you there and I'm also a fan of the director.

[Yoda]

1. Hitchcock did not show flawed women, he flawed the women.
Based on what? They're all fictional, so any flaws shown are things each director chose to instill or emphasize in them.

[the-young-turk]

Feminism isn't about flawed women being 'anti-feminist'. The fact that Hitchcock shows flawed women isn't the problem. It's the context behind his flawed women. The stories of the characters in Hitchcock's films are nowhere near deep enough to justify the kind of 'flaws' we are talking about here and instead reveal the issues of the director. Now most art involves the conflation of self and product but it is also the right of any viewer to criticise the product. The feminist view of Hitchcock does this, and the attitude I'm getting from a lot of these comments is that most film buffs are quite happy to allow films to maintain a sexist derogatory view instead of growing further as an art form.

[seanc]

I am not a woman so I don't pretend to know when they should and shouldn't be offended by their depiction in a film. I can tell you that I can't think of a single woman I know who wouldn't be more offended on the way they are depicted in Nymphomaniac than Vertigo.

For the record I think Hitchcock writes very strong female characters. Almosy every one of his movies I can think of has a strong female character. Including Novak in Vertigo.

[Thursday Next]

I think you can definitely identify some misogynistic traits in some of Hitchcock's work, but this wouldn't lead me to dismiss his entire filmography out of hand. In defence of Hitchcock, I think the uncomfortable voyeuristic element you describe is one of the things that puts the creepy into some of his creepy films, I wouldn't have assumed it was necessarily endorsed.

[the-young-turk]

Nymphomaniac is literally just about a woman that enjoys sex. There is no problem there. The character is NOT flawed because of her sexual exploits and every woman I've spoken to about this believes that Vertigo is more dismissive and therefore offensive than Nymphomaniac.

[Daniel M]

I thought the characterisation in Nymphomaniac was terrible and shallow, he tried to make us care with a series of cliched incidents meant to give the character depth, but ultimately the film was a poor exercise in self indulgent, what does he achieve by showing us the sexual images in such graphic detail, is that needed? I think for a film itself to be misogynistic you have to consider the way woman are treated in the production of it, and for this reason I don't think you can argue that Hitchcock was (with the exception of The Birds, which has some complaints). I know Ebert was deeply offended by how Isabella Rosselini was used in Blue Velvet, and he found the naked scene to be unnecessary and exploitative, without purpose, however I think it works within the context of the film. I think making women appear in a degrading manner needs to be justified. Never are women in Hitchcock films belittled or degraded to the point where they are uncomfortable .

[Yoda]

Feminism isn't about flawed women being 'anti-feminist'. The fact that Hitchcock shows flawed women isn't the problem. It's the context behind his flawed women. The stories of the characters in Hitchcock's films are nowhere near deep enough to justify the kind of 'flaws' we are talking about here and instead reveal the issues of the director. Now most art involves the conflation of self and product but it is also the right of any viewer to criticise the product.
Nobody has, at any point, suggested you don't have the right to criticize any film, or that you don't have the right to put whatever you want on your list. They've simply been disagreeing with your reasons for do so. They're exercising the same right to criticize that you enjoy. :) And as you said earlier, disagreements like this make film interesting.

The feminist view of Hitchcock does this, and the attitude I'm getting from a lot of these comments is that most film buffs are quite happy to allow films to maintain a sexist derogatory view instead of growing further as an art form.
Not at all; most film buffs here are disputing the premise that it's sexist in the first place. And they're also encouraging you to make a distinction between things you reject for artistic reasons and things you object for ethical ones. I have zero problem with you rejecting a director because of personal objections to their behavior. That's totally reasonable. But it's not reasonable to present this as a reflection on their work, or acting as if it diminishes their influence.

Saying you won't watch Woody Allen films because you think he's done awful things is a legitimate decision for a person to make. But saying his dialogue is crappy because he did awful things is a total non-sequitur. The same logic applies to Hitchcock.

[jiraffejustin]

Nymphomania is a movie that will waste your time and money.

There are many porno scenes in this movie.

You will be shocked to see Joe the 10 year old child working in a movie that is rated X.

No story,just boring storytelling.

No drama,just too much porno!.

A waste of time because a nymphomaniac is a sex slave here who needs a psychiatric.

Go rent or buy an adult DVD If you enjoy porno and don't waste your time in watching a movie without a result at all!.

Off-topic, but I love this review of Nymphomaniac on imdb.

[MovieMeditation]

I better hurry THE F**K OUT of this thread before I kill somebody...

Hitchcock and Tarantino not being influential and that they only make movies that are purely entertaining. What. The. F**k.

http://studentlife.ryerson.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Stewie-crazy.gif

You've been hit with the artsy fartsy syndrome my friend, and it looks like there's no cure for you...

[The Gunslinger45]

I am interested in his adaptation of Oedipus Rex mostly, and of course I need to see Salo. Maybe his intense left-wing approach will draw me over to the hippy side and we can all read women's lib pamphlets while we smoke the marijuana. :p;):p;)

Salo was s**t. Literally. :D (Sorry MovieGal).

Hating a filmmaker solely because of differences of personal politics is silly to me. Now I can understand not caring for a filmmaker or actor if they did something horrible (looking at you Hanoi Jane) but just because someone has a different political opinion is no way to dismiss their influence or even to like a movie or other work.

I am on the more libertarian and conservative ends of the political spectrum. But one of my favorite authors is Hunter S Thompson. Though his politics are the polar opposite of mine (though we both dislike Nixon), he has written one of my favorite books of all time Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. And his work was adapted by another left winger Terry Gilliam, and that is one of my top 10 favorite movies. If the art is good enough, then politics should not matter.

As for Tarantino, I don't like his work either. But what I can't say is that he has not been influential. As for Hicthcock the man was a genius.

Now if you will excuse my I am going to can food in my bomb shelter and oil my guns while watching Red Dawn. :p

[the-young-turk]

To be frank I don't care if you all disagree with me, the fact of the matter is that I believe Alfred Hitchcock and his films are misogynistic, Elia Kazan is a right wing pig, and Quentin Tarantino is an entertainer not an artist. If you don't believe this then that is wonderful and magical, if you hate Nymphomaniac then that's great, but I don't, and I'm not going to debate anymore because I made this post to try and put up my list. Now I'm going to put it up again, without the comment, so that the post focuses on what I meant to be the focus of the post.

[Thursday Next]

11. Blow Up (1963) – Michelangelo Antonioni
29. Black Narcissus (1947) – Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger
33. Taxi Driver (1976) – Martin Scorsese
35. Wings of Desire (1987) – Wim Wenders
39. La Regle du Jeu (1939) – Jean Renoir
49. The Third Man (1949) – Carol Reed
52. Fear Eats the Soul (1974) – Rainer Werner Fassbinder
53. Some Like It Hot (1955) – Billy Wilder
62. The Godfather part II (1974) – Francis Ford Coppola
64. The Godfather (1972) – Francis Ford Coppola
67. If… (1968) – Lindsay Anderson
70. The Conversation (1974) – Francis Ford Coppola
72. Paris, Texas (1984) – Wim Wenders
75. La Grande Illusion (1937) – Jean Renoir
77. Vampyr (1932) – Carl Theodor Dreyer
78. Peeping Tom (1960) – Michael Powell


:up: for all of these.

[Daniel M]

Now if you will excuse my I am going to can food in my bomb shelter and oil my guns while watching Red Dawn. :p

Right wing scum.

[The Gunslinger45]

Right wing scum.

Shut it hippie. :p And no you can't come over when the zombies rise to eat our brains.

[mark f]

Your list is pure textbook, and except for your omissions, it doesn't seem very personal to me. But I'm sure it will grow and evolve as you do. I wouldn't go down the political road too far though because it means that you'll eventually run out of those worthy. Besides it hints at artistic fascism. Better to find those you love personally and enjoy film than to be a misguided watchdog. :)

[Cobpyth]

To be frank I don't care if you all disagree with me, the fact of the matter is that I believe Alfred Hitchcock and his films are misogynistic, Elia Kazan is a right wing pig, and Quentin Tarantino is an entertainer not an artist. If you don't believe this then that is wonderful and magical, if you hate Nymphomaniac then that's great, but I don't, and I'm not going to debate anymore because I made this post to try and put up my list. Now I'm going to put it up again, without the comment, so that the post focuses on what I meant to be the focus of the post.

So you're basically saying that you can back up the things you 'believe' and that you're not open for discussion.

Then I believe you are willingly ignorant. ;)

[rauldc14]

13. Sacrifice (1987) – Andrei Tarkovsky
17. Sunrise (1927) – FW Murnau
23. Tokyo Story (1953) – Yasujiro Ozu
28. Sunset Blvd. (1950) – Billy Wilder
31. Casablanca (1942) – Michael Curtiz
32. Apocalypse Now (1979) – Francis Ford Coppola
33. Taxi Driver (1976) – Martin Scorsese
34. Citizen Kane (1941) – Orson Welles
46. Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) – Sergio Leone
53. Some Like It Hot (1955) – Billy Wilder
56. Goodfellas (1990) – Martin Scorsese
79. Double Indemnity (1944) – Billy Wilder
84. The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (1966) – Sergio Leone



Hitchcock and Tarantino arguments aside, these are all excellent choices. :up:

[The Gunslinger45]

But back to the list itself, you do have some excellent choices.

Multiple selections by Scorsese and Kurosawa (especially two of my own top 10 favorite movies). Kubrick is on the list but I think Dr Strangelove is criminally too low. Francis Ford Coppola has multiple placements, and some great films like Tokyo Story, Casablanca, and M. And quite a bit of Tarkovsky, a director I have a love hate relationship with, though I did not see Stalker in the top 100 (my personal favorite.

[Beccafrommars]

I feel you guys have attacked this guy here. There's nothing wrong with morally distancing yourself from a filmmaker and isn't this all just speculative anyway? :)

[Daniel M]

1 day here, 1 post.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Beccafrommars]

...yes, and I just posted in the introductions forum.
Hmmmmmm.

[Daniel M]

Well if you are genuine welcome. We're not attacking him, there's been no personal insults or anything. It's just when you attack a film maker you can expect a debate and people to challenge you and want you to defend your opinions, that's what makes these forums interesting.

[Beccafrommars]

Indeed, but reading through surely calling someone 'wilfully ignorant' is extreme? Plus he seemed genuinely upset. It was fun to read however.

[Arcanis]

Wow... I leave for one hour for a job interview - one hour - and this happens. I swear I'll never leave my house again.

:p

I'm actually very sad to admit that I have not seen Vertigo. Hitchcock is my favorite director by a wide margin (although others, like Kurosawa, are currently giving him a run for his money), and I sadly can't weigh in on the focal point of the criticism against him.

I definitely have to agree 100% with Yoda, though. He captured perfectly what I was going to say about Auteur Theory, Hitchcock and artistic criticism as a whole. It's perfectly understandable to protest certain filmmakers because of their personal life (Polanski, Allen, etc...), but I reject the theory that you can belittle their artistic accomplishments for the same reasons. Art is seperate from the artist, even if their guiding vision crafted the film into what it is. Just because Hitchcock may or may not have been a mysoginist does not necessarilly mean that his films were. And, Vertigo aside, I can wholeheartedly attest that they were not.

[TokeZa]

Coming from a "radical" leftwing milieu, i have always been opposed to self-censorship. People can be really quick to call out sexism even when considering art.

I booked a danish band called Iceage several times in a left wing social centre even though they have been called out as Nazi's due to their music videos. Even though the local activists were kind of worried, it all went well.

I think there is a fine red line when you discuss art and politics. Some of what i find offensive, for instance A Woman Under the Influence i would rate really low, so i can somewhat understand your point. Anyway it just feels, like you have read something and therefore dismisses the whole filmography of american directors who obviously have had some kind of influence. I do respect Tarantino and especially Hitchcock even though it wouldn't be those directors i would go to, as a first step, to look for what i consider masterpieces.

I admire the work of Leni Riefenstahl, but i am opposed to Nazism in every sense if that makes sense.

I hope that your political views won't evolve into self-censorship where you wont try anything new, which is not in line with your political views.

If you dont want to financially support them you can always use illegal ways of getting to their films ;)

[Daniel M]

Indeed, but reading through surely calling someone 'wilfully ignorant' is extreme? Plus he seemed genuinely upset. It was fun to read however.

Perhaps some statements may come across as a little aggressive, but I think these are born out of frustration and a genuine want for meaningful discussion backed up by strong arguments rather than simple dismissive statements which don't address what is being discussed.

If he feels genuinely upset then I think I speak on behalf of everyone in this thread when I say that was nobody's intention. There's been a lot of praise for the list in general, and I think it's a great one too, with many classics. I've had many discussions with the user previously about how I admire there taste in movies, and so have many others, with I think in a way has resulted in a more passionate debate due to his seemingly sudden and drastic reversal in opinions when it comes to some films/directors.

[Mr Minio]

I'm leftist. Yes, I use my left hand to write. What? You mean politics? I don't care about politics.

As of Tarantino, I would say that he was more influenced by the others, than others were influenced by him. That being said, I do not diminish his artistic work, but he is that kind of guy, who loves old kitschy flicks and uses a lot of ideas and tricks from them in his own films.

Great list, the-young-turk. Wait a second, it's got no Werckmeister Harmonies! That's it. Sh*tty list. 0/10

Seriously though. It's one of the best lists I've seen on MoFo.


1. Mirror (1973) – Andrei Tarkovsky - rating_4_5
2. The Red Shoes (1948) – Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
3. Bande A Part (1964) – Jean-Luc Godard - rating_4
4. Persona (1966) – Ingmar Bergman - rating_4_5
5. Late Spring (1951) – Yasujiro Ozu - rating_4
6. Strike (1925) – Sergei Eisenstein - rating_4
7. High and Low (1963) – Akira Kurosawa - rating_4_5
8. Pickpocket (1959) – Robert Bresson - rating_4
9. Rome, Open City (1945) – Roberto Rossellini - rating_4
10. Accattone (1961) – Pier Paolo Passolini - rating_4
11. Blow Up (1963) – Michelangelo Antonioni - rating_4
12. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) – Stanley Kubrick - rating_4_5
13. Sacrifice (1987) – Andrei Tarkovsky - rating_4_5
14. Ikiru (1952) – Akira Kurosawa - rating_3_5
15. Charaluta (1964) – Satyajit Ray - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
16. A Man With A Movie Camera (1929) – Dziga Vertov - rating_4_5
17. Sunrise (1927) – FW Murnau - rating_4_5
18. 8 ½ (1963) – Federico Fellini - rating_1_5
19. The Seventh Seal (1957) – Ingmar Bergman - rating_4_5
20. Rashomon (1950) – Akira Kurosawa - rating_4_5
21. Ordet (1955) – Carl Theodor Dreyer - rating_4
22. Bitter Victory (1957) – Nicholas Ray - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
23. Tokyo Story (1953) – Yasujiro Ozu - rating_4
24. Saturday Night and Sunday Morning (1960) – Karel Reisz - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
25. The Gospel According to St. Matthew (1964) – Pier Paolo Passolini - rating_3_5
26. Rebel Without a Cause (1955) – James Dean - rating_4
27. M (1931) – Fritz Lang - rating_4_5
28. Sunset Blvd. (1950) – Billy Wilder - rating_4
29. Black Narcissus (1947) – Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger - rating_3_5
30. City Lights (1931) – Charles Chaplin - rating_3_5
31. Casablanca (1942) – Michael Curtiz - rating_3
32. Apocalypse Now (1979) – Francis Ford Coppola rating_3
33. Taxi Driver (1976) – Martin Scorsese - rating_3
34. Citizen Kane (1941) – Orson Welles - rating_3
35. Wings of Desire (1987) – Wim Wenders - rating_4_5
36. Ugetsu (1953) – Kenji Mizoguchi - rating_4
37. Wild Strawberries (1957) – Ingmar Bergman - rating_4_5
38. Breathless (1960) – Jean-Luc Godard - rating_4
39. La Regle du Jeu (1939) – Jean Renoir - rating_2_5
40. Johnny Guitar (1954) – Nicholas Ray - rating_3_5
41. A Matter of Life and Death (1946) – Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
42. Hobson’s Choice (1954) – David Lean - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
43. Early Summer (1951) – Yasujiro Ozu - rating_4
44. Belle de Jour (1967) – Luis Bunuel - rating_4
45. A Short Film About Killing (1988) – Krzysztof Kieslowski - rating_4
46. Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) – Sergio Leone - 4.5
47. Ivan’s Childhood (1962) – Andrei Tarkovsky - rating_4
48. Seven Samurai (1954) – Akira Kurosawa - rating_3_5
49. The Third Man (1949) – Carol Reed - rating_3_5
50. Summer With Monika (1953) – Ingmar Bergman - rating_4_5
51. A Story of Floating Weeds (1934) – Yasujiro Ozu - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
52. Fear Eats the Soul (1974) – Rainer Werner Fassbinder - rating_4
53. Some Like It Hot (1955) – Billy Wilder - rating_4
54. Pather Panchali (1955) – Satyajit Ray - rating_4
55. Modern Times (1936) – Charles Chaplin - rating_3_5
56. Goodfellas (1990) – Martin Scorsese - rating_2_5
57. The Passion of Joan of Arc (1928) – Carl Theodor Dreyer - rating_4_5
58. Alphaville (1965) – Jean-Luc Godard - rating_4_5
59. Dr. Strangelove: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1963) Stanley Kubrick - rating_2_5
60. L’Avventura (1960) – Michelangelo Antonioni - rating_4
61. Mon Oncle (1958) – Jacques Tati - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
62. The Godfather part II (1974) – Francis Ford Coppola - rating_4
63. Earth (1930) – Alexander Dovzhenko - rating_4_5
64. The Godfather (1972) – Francis Ford Coppola - rating_4
65. Solaris (1972) – Andrei Tarkovsky - rating_4_5
66. The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie (1972) – Luis Bunuel - rating_2_5
67. If… (1968) – Lindsay Anderson - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
68. Black Orpheus (1959) – Marcel Camus - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
69. Great Expectations (1946) – David Lean - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
70. The Conversation (1974) – Francis Ford Coppola - rating_3_5
71. The Life of Oharu (1952) – Kenji Mizoguchi - rating_4
72. Paris, Texas (1984) – Wim Wenders - rating_4_5
73. Paths of Glory (1957) – Stanley Kubrick - rating_4
74. The Perfect Human (1967) – Jorgen Leth - rating_3
75. La Grande Illusion (1937) – Jean Renoir - rating_4_5
76. Throne of Blood (1957) – Akira Kurosawa - rating_4
77. Vampyr (1932) – Carl Theodor Dreyer - rating_4
78. Peeping Tom (1960) – Michael Powell - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
79. Double Indemnity (1944) – Billy Wilder - rating_4
80. The 400 Blows (1959) – Francois Truffaut - rating_2_5
81. Edward Munch (1974) – Peter Watkins - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
82. La Ballon Rouge (1956) – Albert Lamorisse - rating_3
83. Weekend (1967) – Jean-Luc Godard - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
84. The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (1966) – Sergio Leone - rating_4_5
85. Secrets and Lies (1996) – Mike Leigh - rating_4_5
86. Bigger Than Life (1956) – Nicholas Ray - rating_4
87. Soviet Toys (1924) – Dziga Vertov - rating_2_5
88. I Am Cuba (1964) – Mikhail Kalatozov - rating_4
89. Rio Bravo (1959) – Howard Hawks - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
90. Festen (1998) – Thomas Vinterberg - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
91. Nostalghia (1983) – Andrei Tarkovsky - rating_4
92. The Big Sleep (1946) – Howard Hawks - rating_4
93. The Piano (1993) – Jane Campion - rating_3
94. A Place in the Sun (1951) – George Setevens - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
95. La Belle et la Bete (1946) – Jean Cocteau - rating_4
96. Jules et Jim (1962) – Francois Truffaut- HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME
97. The Trial (1962) – Orson Welles - rating_3_5
98. Au Hasard Balthasar (1966) – Robert Bresson - rating_3_5
99. Nymphomaniac I & II (2014) – Lars von Trier - rating_3_5 & rating_3
100. A Page of Madness (1926) – Teinoskue Kinugasa - rating_4_5

[jiraffejustin]

Minio needs to step his Pressburger & Powell game up.

[the-young-turk]

Due to the mass pressure put on me in this debate I will subdue. Over the next week I will rewatch what I used to consider the key Hitchcock films;
The Wrong Man
Rear Window
Vertigo
Psycho
Blackmail!
The Lodger
Dial M For Murder
North by North West
Strangers on a Train
Frenzy
After watching these films I will reassess my beliefs on Hitchcock, and will post my findings on the website.

[mark f]

No '40s films?

[The Gunslinger45]

Indeed, but reading through surely calling someone 'wilfully ignorant' is extreme? Plus he seemed genuinely upset. It was fun to read however.

That is about as bad as it gets on this site. Then again by internet standards that is pretty tame.

[the-young-turk]

No '40s films?

You're right, add Lifeboat to the list.

[bluedeed]

lolol

*Stands vehemently by auteur theory*
*Lists James Dean as the director of Rebel Without a Cause*

[the-young-turk]

lolol

*Stands vehemently by auteur theory*
*Lists James Dean as the director of Rebel Without a Cause*

I have corrected that error which I am awfully sorry about,I have given Nicholas Ray the credit now. I have been ill and it hasn't entirely gone away.

[mark f]

Dennis Hopper (Ray's close personal friend for years) and others on the set say that James Dean actually did direct much of the film, although how much, if any, of the disorienting camera angles he was responsible for wasn't mentioned. :)

[the-young-turk]

Dennis Hopper (Ray's close personal friend for years) and others on the set say that James Dean actually did direct much of the film, although how much, if any, of the disorienting camera angles he was responsible for wasn't mentioned. :)

And of course he famously improvised the opening sequence without any direction at all from Nicholas Ray. This of course not taking away from Ray's greatness.

[Simseboy]

Back to the friendly Hitchcock debate. You meantioned Vertigo as misogynistic and for that reason you dismiss him, which I guess you are entitled to. But to dismiss his whole filmography, isn't that a bit harsh?

What about Dial M For Murder? Grace Kelly plays the clever and strong hero and clearly outsmarts her pathetic husband in every way, is that film misogynistic? You do realise that even if you for some weird reason think Vertigo is misogynistic, that doesn't mean that all his films are? In that case you should just dismiss Vertigo, and not Hitchcock and his filmography. I'd like to hear your opinion, specifically on the film I just mentioned (Dial M For Murder), and I'm not attacking you, I'm just defending Hitch :)

[the-young-turk]

Back to the friendly Hitchcock debate. You meantioned Vertigo as misogynistic and for that reason you dismiss him, which I guess you are entitled to. But to dismiss his whole filmography, isn't that a bit harsh?

What about Dial M For Murder? Grace Kelly plays the clever and strong hero and clearly outsmarts her pathetic husband in every way, is that film misogynistic? You do realise that even if you for some weird reason think Vertigo is misogynistic, that doesn't mean that all his films are? In that case you should just dismiss Vertigo, and not Hitchcock and his filmography. I'd like to hear your opinion, specifically on the film I just mentioned (Dial M For Murder), and I'm not attacking you, I'm just defending Hitch :)

As I've said I'm going to reassess Hitchcock over this week and that is one of the key films I will look into, I will definitely take this into account.

[Simseboy]

As I've said I'm going to reassess Hitchcock over this week and that is one of the key films I will look into, I will definitely take this into account.

http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2013/2/21/hitchcock.gif

[The Gunslinger45]

2. The Red Shoes (1948) – Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger - HAVEN'T SEEN - IM IGNORANT - FORGIVE ME



See it. It is a great movie.

[Cobpyth]

My apologies if I came across a little too harsh yesterday, TYT.

I'm glad to see that you're willing to give Hitchcock's filmography another chance.