View Full Version : The Super Bowl XLVIII Thread
I expect lots of you will just use The Shoutbox (http://www.movieforums.com/community/shoutbox.php), but here ya' go. Makes a little more sense than the fantasy football thread we've been using.
Powdered Water
02-02-14, 06:30 PM
Why would we want a stupid Super Bowl thread?
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 06:33 PM
24-21, Denver. K. Moreno MVP.
Why would we want a stupid Super Bowl thread?
It sounds like you just called the Super Bowl stupid. Watch out for those dangling modifiers; they'll getcha.
24-21, Denver. K. Moreno MVP.
A part of me has wondered if the whole thing'll be wildly anticlimactic, where there's all this talk about Manning and then the Denver run game ends up winning it. Kinda makes sense; Seattle's pass defense was fantastic (#1 with room to spare), but their run defense was something like 7th.
Powdered Water
02-02-14, 06:55 PM
I can't wait for this game to start. I've waited my entire life for this game. We may very well lose today. I just don't think we will though. My whole life I've watched and waited for a team to come along that would defy all the odds that would be needed for us; little ole Seattle (South Alaska) to win a Super Bowl. So yes, I am very confident that we will win today. It's going to be a very long day for Denver, because win or lose... We are going to go out and hit them in the mouth all the same.
teeter_g
02-02-14, 07:06 PM
I really think the Seahawks got this one. I will be back in a few hours. I have to go to church. I have my DVR set so that I can watch everything when I get back.
Powdered Water
02-02-14, 07:16 PM
Ok, I'mma go and act like a crazy person now. Depending on how things go, I may be back in here with some pretty choice swearing later on.
Good luck PW. I think it is going to be a great one.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 07:24 PM
That was one of the most beautiful national anthems ever!
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 07:25 PM
Also just saw the Noah advert. Looks interesting.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 07:33 PM
FOOTBALL
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 07:34 PM
Da f**k was that?!?!?!?
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 07:36 PM
Idk but that was funny as hell!!
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 07:37 PM
My pick of Knowshon being MVP is already starting to come true. He prevented that from being a Seattle td on the first play.
Bad snap, good run, bad tackling, bad throw. Not the tightest game so far.
Way more teams should go for it on fourth and short in the red zone. The expected points are usually better. The field position even if you fail really mitigates the risk.
All defense so far. Lynch not doing anything, but it seems like he gets a lot of yardage late when the defense is worn down, at least anecdotally, so it might not be a big deal yet.
Well there ya go. Trick play doesn't fool anyone, but a deep throw to Baldwin saves the drive. Whether or not they punch this in seems like a big deal. Be weird to score three times and still only be up one possession.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:02 PM
Russell Wilson is doing pretty well so far.
Wow, great defense on that play.
It's crazy that one drive could tie this game. So weird.
Yeah only 8-0 after all this. Manning has to feel ok about that. They need a decent drive here.
Picked. And it looked like another miscommunication.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:14 PM
Sitting here at the Palmer Movie theater on post. Watching the Super Bowl on a movie theater screen and beer is 2.50 a bottle! Tonight is going to be a good night!
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:16 PM
Seattle NEEDS to get into the end zone if they want to keep this momentum going.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:19 PM
Lynch is starting to get some push. Uh oh.
EDIT: maybe not.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:20 PM
Also if you are on twitter, you should be following @smartfootball
Eh, he had like four on one run. Stuffed on the next though.
If I'm a Denver fan I don't get too worried unless the offense still looks lost in the third. Otherwise I'm assuming Manning makes some halftime adjustments.
There's the score. That flag was huge. Denver playing great defense but their offense keeps putting them in ridiculous situations.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:26 PM
And score. Denver needs to wake up.
Also, did I just see Optimus Prime riding a Dinobot?
Why are they still pimping the halftime show? Ugh.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:27 PM
Blake Anderson from Workaholics good tweet:
Every time Seattle scores Macklemore plays at the stadium so please tighten it up Broncos D.
One thing about physical pass defenses is that it can make a huge difference, I think, if you can connect on a deep throw. Otherwise they can do it all day.
But, admittedly, Manning excels at picking things apart over time, so I might be wrong about that.
Thomas almost mucked that up. Had an easy first, almost lost it.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:31 PM
I said aloud "easy first down" when he caught it....then I exclaimed "WHAT ARE YOU DOING"
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:33 PM
I am starting to feel like I might have made a huge mistake predicting Knowshon to MVP it.
Heh, from Twitter:
"I worry about Seattle because Priuses and Smart Cars are really easy to overturn."
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:34 PM
Nice tunnel screen there. I like tunnel screens.
I think we have a new record for Ugliest Combined Shoes.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:37 PM
What the hell Denver? Got to trip on the sly dude! Lol
Not a terribly convincing play fake.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:38 PM
Oh no.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:38 PM
And pick six!
Well, that's huge. Manning got leveled just as he threw.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:39 PM
Nicely done Seattle!
That looks bad on the stat sheet but that's all on the Seattle D, obviously.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:43 PM
I got a Denver fan screaming the game is fixed! Lol
I would like for this game to be better played and maybe even dramatic. Please and thank you.
Things not going well for us Manning fans
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:45 PM
I would like for this game to be better played and maybe even dramatic. Please and thank you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM_p1Az05Jo
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:46 PM
I would like for this game to be better played and maybe even dramatic. Please and thank you.
This certainly isn't the last BCS National Championship right now.
Still kinda think Denver might make a game of this, at least in the sense of the game not being completely over in the fourth.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:51 PM
Possibility. Then again I am rooting for Seattle.
Thomas definitely got away with that one.
agreed again, but they wont
Although the field position thing doesn't work here, come to think of it.
Two people who's post season performances I used to defend: Manning and Arod. I stopped defending Arod a couple years ago. Stay tuned, Manning may be next.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:56 PM
If the game holds up, which is looking likely, they should split that MVP up four ways.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:56 PM
Denver not having a good half
I just felt like they needed a boost and three wasn't going to do it.
I dunno if Manning's even played badly. It's all Seattle D, I think.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 08:58 PM
That D is insane!
He floated both picks, I felt.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:58 PM
I dunno if Manning's even played badly. It's all Seattle D, I think.
This is the case. Every "bad" Manning throw has been the product of pressure and blanket coverage.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 08:59 PM
He floated both picks, I felt.
He got hit on one of them, maybe both. For some reason I can't remember the other one.
D is great, but we knew that. He needs to be greater and right now he is not.
Even the one where he was hit, I don't think that is why it floated. Looked like maybe a wrong route.
Even the one where he was hit, I don't think that is why it floated. Looked like maybe a wrong route.
Oh, it definitely was. The guy hit his arm, specifically.
DT's gobble up the short stuff as well. They are good to be sure.
Someone on Twitter just pointed out that the Broncos scored 22 or more points in a half more often than not this year, which is insane.
Not that I'd, ya' know, bet on it in this circumstance.
DT's gobble up the short stuff as well. They are good to be sure.
Yeah, I think that's the real thing right now. They've gotten to those screens really quickly.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:03 PM
He couldn't follow through, of course that caused the ball to float.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:09 PM
So, how can we fix this if we are the Broncos? Maybe run more bubbles to Demaryius and somehow inspire Wes to start blocking like he wants to win on them? And more back shoulder fades? I don't know.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 09:13 PM
Idk know who the band is, but they are a LOT better then the Black Eyed Peas.
So, how can we fix this if we are the Broncos? Maybe run more bubbles to Demaryius and somehow inspire Wes to start blocking like he wants to win on them? And more back shoulder fades? I don't know.
A little more protection up front, I think. They've moved the ball when that's happened. I don't think they need to completely throw away their usual gameplan, but they can't let Seattle pressure Manning even when they're not blitzing.
Still think more deep shots are worth a try, too. Seattle's probably too quick to chip away at them with screens and slants all day, and even if they weren't, that becomes less viable as time becomes scarcer, anyway.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:16 PM
A little more protection up front, I think. They've moved the ball when that's happened. I don't think they need to completely throw away their usual gameplan, but they can't let Seattle pressure Manning even when they're not blitzing.
Still think more deep shots are worth a try, too. Seattle's probably too quick to chip away at them with screens and slants all day, and even if they weren't, that becomes less viable as time becomes scarcer, anyway.
They should definitely try to sneak a shot in on them, but I think they need to set it up with some quick hitches. Then maybe sneak a double move on them maybe. I don't know. It's easier said than done.
I have so little interest in this halftime show it's scary.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:18 PM
I like the Chili Peps, but this seems like a weird time to have them on. I don't understand why this is happening. And Bruno Mars is no Beyonce.
I love the Chili Peppers, but these things are always lip synced, and I hate that.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 09:20 PM
I have so little interest in this halftime show it's scary.
It is not the Rolling Stones when the Pats and Eagles played but it is actually pretty good.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:21 PM
Nice tweet regarding this "performance."
"This is undoubtedly the most energetic unmemorable thing I have ever seen."
Never knew Bruno Mars before tonight. I kind of dig it.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 09:21 PM
I wishe I could get a band like Anthrax during the half time show.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:31 PM
Welp.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 09:32 PM
Damn Percy! Lol The look on Manning's face!
That's what Denver shouldn't do.
Might be time for a movie.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:43 PM
Good God, Kam Chancellor is huge.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:44 PM
Why are they not going for it? It feels like they should go for it no matter what now. But whatever, I guess.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:46 PM
If we have to give the MVP to one player, surely it has to be Kam Chancellor right? He deserves it so far.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 09:46 PM
And Axe body spy wins for STUPIDEST commercial!
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:52 PM
Matrix commercial. Wut.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:55 PM
Of course that happens as soon as they get a decent play.
When you've got the best QB in the history of the game and you're down 29 in the Super Bowl, it might be time to go downfield a little.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 09:56 PM
AGAIN?!?!?
Clearly that was Peyton Manning's fault, because mumble mumble postseason something.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 09:58 PM
Yeah, I was fixing to post that some people on my twitter timeline are at the "Let's pretend this is Peyton Manning's fault" portion of the game.
This is the longest asskicking. Im really shocked Denvers offense was outperformed to this degree.
Good for Seattle! They earned it and deserve it.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:00 PM
This is all the fault of the Seattle defense. I mean damn!
Yeah, that's the story. Lynch not doing much, Wilson okay, Manning a little meh but with little help. It's just the Seattle D.
Well, that and a few genuinely sloppy plays on Denver's part.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:03 PM
Is there a mercy rule?
Bob Dylan with a two minute slam poem commercial that boils down to "DER TECKING UR JIBS."
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:07 PM
DEY TUK EER JERBS!
No, Maximus, I am not entertained.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:11 PM
I am entertained. As a Jags fan I hate Peyton. Seeing him poopy faced makes me happy.
Besides, I had my game of the year when my alma mater FSU beat Auburn for the national championship.
Frightened Inmate No. 2
02-02-14, 10:11 PM
decided to rewatch pulp fiction tonight instead of watching the game. i think i made a good choice.
Wow, that was a great catch.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:11 PM
Give him props though that was a hell of a pass.
Joe Buck sounded more excited for that TD than he did for the Helmet Catch. He's so bad.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:12 PM
Being a Jags fan, you should probably hate every QB in the league.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:12 PM
They get two not points.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:13 PM
Being a Jags fan, you should probably hate every QB in the league.
Especially the ones on my team. :(
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:13 PM
I don't know what to call it, but I freaking love the 2pt conversion play. KC ran a version of it very well this year with Jamaal Charles out of the backfield. It's kind of funny that in high school we called that play Bronco, and we would hit our fullback in the flats.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:14 PM
Especially the ones on my team. :(
I was going to add that at the end, but I felt it was mean enough as it was.
Apparently Denver now has more yards than Seattle.
Think about that.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:15 PM
I was going to add that at the end, but I felt it was mean enough as it was.
Nah honesty is the best policy.
Still got FSU though. :D
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:16 PM
Apparently Denver now has more yards than Seattle.
Think about that.
That's what happens when every possession starts on one side of the 50.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:17 PM
The stat that matters is the 21 points off turnovers.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:20 PM
For the record, I think John Fox is the worst head coach to make it to a Super Bowl.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:21 PM
For the record, I think John Fox is the worst head coach to make it to a Super Bowl.
Wouldn't this the the second time he lost in the big game?
Even though he made it twice, with two different teams? Hmm.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:22 PM
I forgot about Jim Caldwell.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:24 PM
And adding insult to injury
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:25 PM
Even though he made it twice, with two different teams? Hmm.
Yeah, I still think that*. I hate the way he coaches. The punt down 29, but then onside kick down 28. Last year deciding to not try to win the game at the end of regulation against the Ravens.
*second worst to Jim Caldwell.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:27 PM
Damn! What a hit! No mercy here!
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:30 PM
Patton Oswalt tweet:
"Anyone sad about there not being a new #TrueDetective on tonight can take comfort in the hopelessness & nihilism of tonight's #SuperBowl"
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:30 PM
Okay the Full House yogaurt commercial was hilarious! Which more the I could say for the show.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:32 PM
https://twitter.com/celebrityhottub/status/430166509504057344
The strength and conditioning coach of the Seahawks is insane.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 10:34 PM
https://twitter.com/celebrityhottub/status/430166509504057344
The strength and conditioning coach of the Seahawks is insane.
After first seeing Drill Setgeant Lane for the first time nothing scares me. This dude does come close. He got the crazy eyes.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:36 PM
17 yards rushing for Knowshon. I called it tonight, guys.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:40 PM
John Fox decisions. https://twitter.com/smartfootball/status/430168755021152257
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:44 PM
I thought Patrick Bateman killed Paul Allen?
I'm not really a John Fox fan, but given the number of head coaches who make head-scratching in-game decisions (and it's a lot of them), it seems pretty clear to me that a huge part of the job is simple discipline and motivation, and that things like clock management are actually a distant second in importance, even though they seem easy to the rest of us.
At least, that's the only rational explanation I can come up with for the fact that lots of seemingly oblivious coaches not only keep finding work, but keep fielding winning teams.
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 10:56 PM
I don't think he is a "bad" coach, I just don't think he is nearly as good as most Super Bowl coaches.
Seriously though, let's give Kam Chancellor the MVP.
Kinda funny that none of the players that were talked about the most--Lynch, Manning, Wilson, Sherman--really ended up winning or losing the game.
Pussy Galore
02-02-14, 11:04 PM
Football isn't my sport, but I watch de CFL and the caliber is definitely something else. it was really a one sided match
jiraffejustin
02-02-14, 11:14 PM
I can live with Malcolm Smith as MVP. At least it was a defensive player, and he did have a huge play. Even if he didn't actually cause the play to happen.
The Gunslinger45
02-02-14, 11:20 PM
Hope Powdered Water lives it up tonight but parties responsibly. His team earned it!
rauldc14
02-02-14, 11:26 PM
I can live with Malcolm Smith as MVP. At least it was a defensive player, and he did have a huge play. Even if he didn't actually cause the play to happen.
I'm just glad it didn't go to the quarterback like it has numerous times when they didn't deserve it. Well played game by Seattle. They will be an obvious threat next year and won't pull a Baltimore.
RepentantSky
02-02-14, 11:42 PM
One of my friends predicted 14 to 42, Bronco's. It was almost completely opposite. The game ended up being kind of boring to watch. It was too one-sided. At least I got to hang out with some friends though.
Powdered Water
02-03-14, 12:01 AM
What a game. I assume that was convincing enough for most folks? Just WOW. Oh, and welcome back, Percy Harvin. I'm already ready for next year already.
teeter_g
02-03-14, 12:45 AM
That was the most one sided Super Bowl game that I have ever seen....and I loved every second of it! However, on the down side, the commercials were bull. I only saw 2 that made me laugh.
RepentantSky
02-03-14, 01:01 AM
As far as commercials, I kind of hated most of them. The early one with the tornado and all that really ticked me off. It went from looking like what could be a trailer for one of the most interesting films of all time, to being a car commercial. What a let down. Someone needs to take the plot of that add and make a movie of it.
Powdered Water
02-03-14, 01:04 AM
It was pretty cool not to see any drug commercials for a change. My penis is fine, thanks.
Sexy Celebrity
02-03-14, 01:07 AM
Yay, Powdered Water!
I was right!
teeter_g
02-03-14, 01:07 AM
The movie trailers were nice. I hadn't seen either of those trailers.
donniedarko
02-03-14, 01:30 AM
I think I'm gonna start dealing anti-depressants :p
Seahawks deserved it and I picked them at the beginning of the year, so :up: for the team the coaches and the wonderful players. It's a team of characters that made this season so fun, great job.
While Manning lacked protection tonight, his first pick was awful and he just isn't a clutch performer in critical moments anyway, just like most. In a must win situation, give me Eli every time.
Congratulations PW!!!
I had my in-laws' over, it was a blast!
Really happy for the great fans up here and owner Paul Allen!
It was funny to watch Peyton Manning. What? No running up to the line pointing around and shouting Omaha!?
The Seahawks defense reminds me of The Buccaneers teams. They just lined up and kicked your ass. It didn't matter what the other teams offense was doing.
And now back to me. Really sucks to have your favorite team in the same division as the two best teams in football and the other team is really good!
jiraffejustin
02-03-14, 04:42 AM
While Manning lacked protection tonight, his first pick was awful and he just isn't a clutch performer in critical moments anyway, just like most. In a must win situation, give me Eli every time.
I highlighted the crazy parts. Both picks were awful, because his guys were blanketed and he had dudes in his face. Not awful because of anything in particular he did. Clutch? Did it not take any "clutch" performances to get to that stage? Or is there only one "clutch" quarterback every year? And take Eli over Peyton in "must win situations?" Shouldn't every game be "must win?"
I watched about 20 minutes of it, then turned it off. Most of my friends said they turned it off before halftime. I'd be curious to know what the viewing numbers were, because I have to think a lot of people out there didn't want to watch such a one-sided game.
I highlighted the crazy parts. Both picks were awful, because his guys were blanketed and he had dudes in his face. Not awful because of anything in particular he did. Clutch? Did it not take any "clutch" performances to get to that stage? Or is there only one "clutch" quarterback every year? And take Eli over Peyton in "must win situations?" Shouldn't every game be "must win?"
Yeah, the "clutch" thing is a silly narrative that won't die, even though he's won a Super Bowl and beaten New England twice on huge stages. It's not even clear "clutch" is a thing to begin with, but people like tidy little narratives.
He played pretty well when he had time. The credit goes to Seattle's defense for not letting that happen very often.
We were getting spoiled by all the competitive Super Bowls, I think. They used to be blowouts all the time.
Congrats to the Seahawks. They undeniably had more talent and drive during that game. As most of you know I am mainly a Steelers fan (we will not talk about them right now) but I do like The Broncos quite a bit. They had an amazing year and nothing is going to take away from the regular season stats they managed to put up. I miss football already.
donniedarko
02-03-14, 11:07 AM
I watched about 20 minutes of it, then turned it off. Most of my friends said they turned it off before halftime. I'd be curious to know what the viewing numbers were, because I have to think a lot of people out there didn't want to watch such a one-sided game.
I watched the whole thing, most of my friends watching separately turned it off around mid way 3rd quarter. I was curious to see if we'd have a shut down. But ya I'm sure the superbowl got slammed on the viewings this time around
I highlighted the crazy parts. Both picks were awful, because his guys were blanketed and he had dudes in his face. Not awful because of anything in particular he did. Clutch? Did it not take any "clutch" performances to get to that stage? Or is there only one "clutch" quarterback every year? And take Eli over Peyton in "must win situations?" Shouldn't every game be "must win?"
Who said both picks? If you want to claim that the first was due to pressure then it's a ball that shouldn't be thrown which makes it an awful pick, especially for a QB of Manning's caliber. Playoffs don't matter as much as a Super Bowl, nor do they have the same pressure built in, but Manning has a losing record in both anyway and has thrown game losing picks in the SB against the Saints and the Ravens in the playoffs in OT last year, and that's just what comes to memory now. He did win a Super Bowl but many QBs have won one Super Bowl and Manning wasn't asked to do much in that game. Bottom line is Manning has a questionable record at best when he needs to perform up to his norm or better in the big moments. Then again, he's far from alone in that respect.
Yeah, the "clutch" thing is a silly narrative that won't die, even though he's won a Super Bowl and beaten New England twice on huge stages. It's not even clear "clutch" is a thing to begin with, but people like tidy little narratives.
He played pretty well when he had time. The credit goes to Seattle's defense for not letting that happen very often.
Clutch means performing when everything is on the line and Peyton's record in this area is mediocre at best with some absolutely inopportune picks as I've already mentioned. Seattle pressure was indeed the major problem last night but that first pick was a bad one, the antithesis of clutch, and it really didn't surprise me. It's always been my view that Manning is a great QB who just doesn't rise to the occasion, who is, in fact, a bit of a choke.
Who said both picks? If you want to claim that the first was due to pressure then it's a ball that shouldn't be thrown which makes it an awful pick, especially for a QB of Manning's caliber.
This sounds like a description of the second. The first was an incorrect route by Thomas (which is what it looked like at the time, too); it's detailed in some of the articles written about the game.
Playoffs don't matter as much as a Super Bowl, nor do they have the same pressure built in, but Manning has a losing record in both anyway and has thrown game losing picks in the SB against the Saints and the Ravens in the playoffs in OT last year, and that's just what comes to memory now.
What should also come to memory about the Baltimore game is that he threw that pick after putting up 35 points. It only went into OT because Denver gave up a ridiculous 70-yard bomb. Please explain how his Choke Gene was undulating during this period. It decided to let him be awesome for all of regulation, knowing that his defense would blow it, only activating Choke Mode at the very end?
(Separate post because it's less specific and more about the concept in general.)
Clutch means performing when everything is on the line and Peyton's record in this area is mediocre at best with some absolutely inopportune picks as I've already mentioned. Seattle pressure was indeed the major problem last night but that first pick was a bad one, the antithesis of clutch, and it really didn't surprise me. It's always been my view that Manning is a great QB who just doesn't rise to the occasion, who is, in fact, a bit of a choke.
You say "clutch means performing when everything is on the line," but that's not what you're actually describing: you're describing it as a condition. Calling someone "clutch" (or not) merely as a way of describing how they've played under certain conditions (backwards-looking) is reasonable, but it goes off the rails when it's suggested that the term applies to them as a person, and has any kind of predictive power about how they'll perform in the future.
There are all sorts of obvious logical problems with this, but let's start with the low-hanging fruit, without leaving the sport, the team, or even the position: John Elway lost his first three Super Bowls, one of them by a worse margin than the game last night. Not clutch, right? Yet he closes out his career with two consecutive titles. So...now he is? He wasn't and then he was? People can be not clutch...until they are? It gets goofy quick.
The far, far simpler explanation is that being "clutch" or "choking" was never a personal attribute to begin with, because anyone like that doesn't make it to the NFL in the first place. But it's useful for people to talk about sports in terms of narratives and personalities, because it's a lot less interesting to say "hey, this is a really small sample size and you probably can't draw tons of conclusions from it about the people involved."
rauldc14
02-03-14, 05:26 PM
Super Bowl 49 prediction
Packers vs. Chiefs
jiraffejustin
02-03-14, 05:52 PM
And I would like to point out during the Ravens game he would have had a chance to drive for a game winning field goal in the last seconds, but his head coach decided to kneel and send it to overtime.
jiraffejustin
02-03-14, 05:55 PM
Is Tom Brady clutch still? Or is he no longer clutch?
What about Joe Montana? Did he lose his "clutch" when he went to Kansas City? Or did Steve Young take his "clutch?" Eli is clutch even though his team didn't even make the playoffs?
I would enjoy reading a list of "clutch" and "non-clutch" quarterbacks, if you would care to write one up.
EDIT:
I really loathe that interception totals are used against a quarterback so frequently, even when they are misleading. I get that they are the ones who throw the ball, but there are a ton of factors that go into an interception. A QB can hit a guy in the chest with a dart, the ball flies into the air, a defensive back runs under it. Interception. Or a WR can read a defense and think he should run a double move, when in fact he should run a hitch. Easy pick six. That's happened to Tony Romo more times than I care to remember, but it always is laid on the QB's head as if he should be running the route too.
Powdered Water
02-03-14, 09:42 PM
I'm really not interested in the Manning clutch debate anymore. I guess I'm a reformed "clutch" user if you need to label me. I'm just gonna say this about him. He went and sought out Richard Sherman after the game and inquired as to how his ankle was doing. You can hear the tone in Richards voice when he's talking about it and you just feel like this hot shot cornerback may have really learned an important lesson about sportsmanship, from someone who he and his teammates just got done handing a terrible defeat to. So, I say Peyton Manning is alright in my book. And really, does it matter? Maybe he's not the greatest of all time. Would he really have been locked in as the greatest if he'd won? That still would have only been 2 Superbowl wins.
I do gotta wonder though if he thinks about his quick decision to not even really speak to the Hawks two years ago back on the tarmac in Denver. We would most likely not be talking about Peyton Mannnig Superbowl loser, if he were the QB for Seattle today.
jiraffejustin
02-03-14, 09:46 PM
I do gotta wonder though if he thinks about his quick decision to not even really speak to the Hawks two years ago back on the tarmac in Denver. We would most likely not be talking about Peyton Mannnig Superbowl loser, if he were the QB for Seattle today.
I don't think so. I think he made the right decision at the time. Playing the 49ers twice every year, or playing the Chargers, Raiders, and Chiefs every year? Not much of a decision. Especially when you look at who they have at receiver. D. Thomas and E. Decker compared to not much.
I found a couple of articles where it said that the first pick may've been due to a broken route. No one was put definitively at fault although I suppose I was wrong about it. However, that doesn't change my opinion about Manning being a clutch performer because in my view he isn't. Indeed, if you look at what I wrote on another thread here about a week ago you'll see that.
What is being clutch? Clutch is not scoring 35 points then throwing a losing pick. Clutch is not marching down the field for a last drive to tie the Super Bowl and throwing a pick six to lose the game. That would be unclutch. Clutch is coming through in big games, especially at crucial moments.
Additionally, I think being clutch, or put another way, failing to be so, may have an awful lot to do with nerves and one's psyche so calling it a "condition" may actually be correct. As to Elway or those who may have a mixed history I'd have to look at their performances to make a judgement. But winning a game does not necessarily mean someone was clutch.
And really, does it matter? Maybe he's not the greatest of all time. Would he really have been locked in as the greatest if he'd won? That still would have only been 2 Superbowl wins.
Here's my question: do we have to have a "greatest of all time"?
I've become increasingly disinterested with the argument about who the greatest is. It doesn't matter. Montana, Unitas, Elway, Marino, Favre, Brady, Manning. They're all uniquely stellar players. Why do we have to crown one of them the best of all? What is it about the human brain that feels compelled to do that? And why do we use something as complicated as championship wins to measure the "greatness" of these guys?
I'm content with the fact that the game has produced some truly exceptional players, and I consider them all equally legendary, regardless of whatever ridiculous measurables folks want to trot out as evidence of who's better than who.
Powdered Water
02-04-14, 01:42 AM
I don't know if we have to have a greatest of all time, but I think its pretty clear that unlike Basketball, Football really doesn't have a clear greatest player ever. In Basketball every player will forever be compared to how close he comes to Jordan. And that is just what it is.
Football has had some real greats but its never had a player, so dominant that all other players will always be compared to him. If Manning had pulled out a win yesterday he would have come a lot closer to that in my book. Certainly closer than he seemingly is now in the eyes of most fans.
Also: I'm finding all kinds of goofy 12 stuff if you're into that sort of thing. The safety occurred at 12 seconds in and Percy Harvin scored at 12 seconds into the second half. MarShawn Lynch supposedly scored his TD at 12:00 but I'm not sure about that one. Russell Wilson had 206 yards (our Seattle area code) and that was our 12th playoff win and Peyton's 12th playoff loss.
The year of the 12 indeed.
RepentantSky
02-04-14, 08:34 AM
We were getting spoiled by all the competitive Super Bowls, I think. They used to be blowouts all the time.
That's true actually. The thing is, this was the first time I was able to watch the game as it was happening for three years, I really wanted to see a good game and got disappointed. I wish it had played out better.
What is being clutch? Clutch is not scoring 35 points then throwing a losing pick. Clutch is not marching down the field for a last drive to tie the Super Bowl and throwing a pick six to lose the game. That would be unclutch. Clutch is coming through in big games, especially at crucial moments.
All of these examples are in retrospect. We were discussing clutch (or "choking") as a condition that players simply have, which implies predictive power. "This guy wasn't clutch" is different from "This guy isn't clutch."
Additionally, I think being clutch, or put another way, failing to be so, may have an awful lot to do with nerves and one's psyche so calling it a "condition" may actually be correct. As to Elway or those who may have a mixed history I'd have to look at their performances to make a judgement. But winning a game does not necessarily mean someone was clutch.
Correct, and neither does losing one. But sure, go ahead and look at Elway's history. Check out Brady's while you're at it, seeing as how he would've been #1 on anyone's "clutch" list after his third Super Bowl, but has had a very inconsistent record since. One guy lost three Super Bowls and the other won three, and then they flipped. If even these kinds of extremes can change without warning, then how can it mean anything to slap someone with the label in the first place?
My questions about the Baltimore game still apply, too: do you really think Manning's psyche knew his team would blow a lead, so it allowed him to play well in a big game because he sensed he was going to have a chance to blow it later? How does that work? This is verging on the metaphysical.
I don't think it's a defensible position, but you're welcome to try.
I don't think I said it was a condition; that was your attribution which I thought was quite possible. Designating someone as clutch or not is obviously based on past performance, but if there's a consistency to those performances it can be argued that it's inherent.
All things being equal, if an athlete has a truly mixed record then I wouldn't call them clutch or a choke, but unpredictable or unreliable I suppose. I don't know enough about Elway (although I'm sure the argument would revolve around Terrell Davis) but my view of Brady wasn't really changed by his two losses in the Super Bowl. Without going into detail, let's just say that it basically took two miracle catches for the Giants to beat him each time.
I think two of the TDs against the Ravens were returns so let's just put that out there. But that notwithstanding, you can't throw a game losing pick after playing well, even unusually well, then say you had a clutch performance.
The debate over Manning, and Lebron for that matter, is old and ongoing. All I can tell you is that if I need someone to win a must game for me neither of these guys are at the top of my list.
jiraffejustin
02-04-14, 08:14 PM
You mention the two "miracle" plays as conditions for why Brady's team lost, but you don't point out that in order for him to win in some "clutch" situations he has had some help from "miracles." Tuck rule anybody? In playoff games Manning has lost, you can point out how poorly his defenses have played as excuses for him, just as you made miracle plays the excuse for Brady's failure to win a Super Bowl in the last ten years. To stick with the Ravens game last season, Champ Bailey was toasted over and over again in that game. Jacoby Jones tied the game on a 70 yard td with 30 seconds left in regulation after Peyton threw the go ahead td earlier in the 4th.
All things being equal, if an athlete has a truly mixed record then I wouldn't call them clutch or a choke, but unpredictable or unreliable I suppose. I don't know enough about Elway (although I'm sure the argument would revolve around Terrell Davis) but my view of Brady wasn't really changed by his two losses in the Super Bowl. Without going into detail, let's just say that it basically took two miracle catches for the Giants to beat him each time.
But in both cases they scored very few points and his play was mediocre. And the fact that this somehow didn't change your view is precisely the point: these narratives don't hold water if you articulate a coherent standard and apply it consistently. They only survive through confirmation bias, through caring about context when it fits the narrative and ignoring it when it doesn't.
But that notwithstanding, you can't throw a game losing pick after playing well, even unusually well, then say you had a clutch performance.
But the question wasn't whether he was "clutch" that game. The question is why you think you think we can attribute things like this to nerves or "pressure" when he played well in regulation. Did his nerves know the game would improbably go to OT, so that they could safely wait to "kick in"?
jiraffejustin
02-04-14, 09:35 PM
I want to point out that VFN said:
let's just say that it basically took two miracle catches for the Giants to beat him each time.
and
In a must win situation, give me Eli every time.
So, you want Eli because he is luckier than Peyton? Is clutch about being lucky enough for a "miracle" to occur in your favor?
Powdered Water
02-04-14, 10:28 PM
I think he may have lost a few bucks on that game. Hehe...
I never said what my view of Brady was, only that it didn't change based on his two SB loses. Not scoring many points is not necessarily indicative of a QB's performance and I don't remember Brady throwing any game ending picks in either game. Eli's two game winning drives weren't lucky; they required a high degree of skill but were improbable.
Pressure has context, so a playoff veteran playing at home (because his team is ostensibly better than it's competition) in a second round playoff game with Peyton's talent level, may not create much pressure. (And this is before being spotted 14 points on returns.) But when faced with a do or die situation, a perform or go home sudden death, the stakes were raised, pressure grew and it affected him.
I think it should also be pointed out that you can be clutch, choke or be serviceable and most athletes fall along that spectrum. And please don't get me wrong; I'm a fan of Manning's, was rooting for him Sunday, and hope he wins a few more SBs.
The year of the 12 indeed.
Yeah & it might even be 12 more seasons before the Seahawks make the playoffs again ;)
gandalf26
02-06-14, 06:55 PM
Hey Yoda what do you make of the Seahawks coach being a 9/11 truther?
Must be batshit crazy right?
Yes. Was I supposed to find it more convincing now for some reason?
gandalf26
02-06-14, 06:59 PM
Yup
Sexy Celebrity
02-06-14, 07:00 PM
Close this thread. Super Bowl XLVIII is so four days ago.
gandalf26
02-06-14, 07:02 PM
Apparently he grilled some retired 4 star General so badly about it the guy walked out.
Yup
Why? I don't regard NFL coaches as serious intellectual or political thinkers, and he has no special insight into the matter. It'd be ridiculous for this to influence anyone's opinion about 9/11.
gandalf26
02-06-14, 07:13 PM
I was joking. I think it would take an act of God to waver your opinion on the matter.
I never said what my view of Brady was, only that it didn't change based on his two SB loses.
So...you didn't think he was "clutch"?
Not scoring many points is not necessarily indicative of a QB's performance and I don't remember Brady throwing any game ending picks in either game. Eli's two game winning drives weren't lucky; they required a high degree of skill but were improbable.
I'm not sure this answers what jiraffe said, though: how can you say Brady only lost because of "miracles," but simultaneously credit Eli for the victory enough to say you'd take him in a big game? The only way to reconcile these two statements is to say that you think Eli somehow caused those miracles, yes?
Pressure has context, so a playoff veteran playing at home (because his team is ostensibly better than it's competition) in a second round playoff game with Peyton's talent level, may not create much pressure. (And this is before being spotted 14 points on returns.) But when faced with a do or die situation, a perform or go home sudden death, the stakes were raised, pressure grew and it affected him.
So your belief is that Peyton's "choke" DNA didn't activate because it was just a second round playoff game, but that it turned out in overtime? I certainly can't disprove this, but it sounds pretty convoluted. Especially when you look at the 2007 AFC Championship, where this choke gene never kicked in even as he led an 18-point comeback and a game-winning drive in a much bigger game against his primary rivals.
The choke gene works in mysterious ways, I suppose. Embrace the mystery.
I think it should also be pointed out that you can be clutch, choke or be serviceable and most athletes fall along that spectrum.
Here's my alternate theory: good players sometimes play badly, and bad players play well, and that among the major sports football games are much rarer and involve much larger teams, so that individual performances are subject to far more variance based on small sample size.
I was joking. I think it would take an act of God to waver your opinion on the matter.
Well, the invitation to have a "proper" discussion about it is still open. With the lone caveat that it would have to wait until after I get the new design launched. But other than that, I'm always game.
gandalf26
02-06-14, 07:16 PM
I fear that I would be soundly beaten by you in a debate about any subject, but we ll get into it one day.
Brady was clutch in that he played well enough to win and didn't do anything to throw away the game.
Miracles was a manner of speech that I explained.
Pressure is not a mathematical constant as I explained.
Athletes fall along a spectrum as I said and people can disagree on why that is, but the record is there. I think, in general, it's quite apparent, but we need just look to our own experiences to understand it.
Over and Out.
jiraffejustin
02-06-14, 08:37 PM
Athletes fall along a spectrum as I said and people can disagree on why that is, but the record is there. I think, in general, it's quite apparent, but we need just look to our own experiences to understand it.
Can you explain the bolded part? Or just at least point out the records you are talking about?
Mmmm Donuts
02-08-14, 12:11 AM
I hope this hasn't been posted yet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjc3P8bAIeg
jiraffejustin
02-08-14, 12:13 AM
Performance history.
Performance history of each of these individuals shows a mixed bag though.
Depends on what you're looking at and how. Much written about all this stuff and the debate will surely go on. I now take kind leave of this thread. :)
It was brought to my attention that Brady did throw a game-ending pick in a playoff game, ironically, at the Colts in the 2006-7 championship game. Needed a TD with one minute to go and threw it with 17 seconds left. Thought I'd be remiss if I didn't add this.
Peace.
Miracles was a manner of speech that I explained.
But the manner of speech isn't the point: the point is that you're defending Brady by saying unusual or improbable things happened, but you're simultaneously ascribing credit for those things to Eli as if he has control over them. It can't be both. They can't be skill-based enough for you to credit Eli, but random enough for you to defend Brady.
Pressure is not a mathematical constant as I explained.
This sounds like another way of saying, as I suggested before, that the entire concept is unfalsifiable. If you don't require that "pressure" manifest itself in any kind of consistent way, then I don't see any way for you to assert that any examples of poor play are the rule, rather than the exception.
The alternative theory makes just as much sense and it has the added benefit of not involving phantom pressure genes that rapidly change polarity, like the mutant bastard of Rudy and Jurassic Park.
Performance history.
This is a pretty confusing response, given that the performance history isn't under dispute. The reasons for it are.
Anyway, you beat me to the Brady anecdote, which is a perfect example of how these narratives are constructed through confirmation bias, rather than a dispassionate analysis of the facts. Brady's failure doesn't count. Why? Because he'd already established a narrative counter to it.
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