View Full Version : Wicca/Magic Q&A and more debates
Well instead of letting ourselves go off the track in other threads, ive finally taken the time to create on for this debate alone, here i will post any anwsers, entertain any curiousity and beat any arguements.
Here (http://www.wicca.com) is a popular link and the only one i know off by heart for information but there are not everything included in here. So come on Chris, Toose, whoever else wants to ask and fight, im ready to take you down because the gloves are now off :D So in a non literal sense, fire away!
BTW im going to include a poll, im not sure why but i just want to :D
OptimalDelusion
11-10-02, 08:29 PM
I have a question! Do you have a magical staff? I have a Wiccan friend who has what she calls a "magic staff" that is supposed to have a ghost living inside it! :eek: Damn cool religion, if you ask me! :D
actually i have doubts that a spirit is residing in a staff, unless she means the tree spirit, im actually looking for a fallen branch that i can shape into a cool staff, so to anwser the question, not yet but when i do man am i going to love it :D
The Silver Bullet
11-10-02, 08:55 PM
You are so not the poster boy for this religion man...
:rolleyes: I dont pretend to be, but i thought that a thread like this would be able to take place to discuss the so-callled problems OR questions of wicca. I mean you have a thread for those who say god doesnt exsist and other such things, well since Toose wanted some information and Chris loves to debate it
Im not flaming trying to promote the religion as the only way to be, just anwser questions and have healthy debates alright, so go back to your corner and let me ok Matt, just once let me do something without your superior mind shadowing.
OptimalDelusion
11-10-02, 09:26 PM
You two are best friends, aren't you? ;D
:laugh: on good days we are “friendly” but best friends hmm maybe a little stretch. The trick is to take nothing what Silver says as personal. The scary part is at the moment we are in the same town and at the moment I suspect within a twenty metre radias of each other.
The Silver Bullet
11-10-02, 09:41 PM
It just cracked me up.
"Let us talk about my Religion. Let us take it seriously and I will help you understand it better...
...I want a tree spirit stick that I can love."
O-kaaaaaaaaaaaaaay....
Come on!
It's funny!
:rotfl:
LordSlaytan
11-10-02, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by The Silver Bullet
You are so not the poster boy for this religion man...
Hee Hee....
You're a big mean bully! :yup:
Caitlyn
11-11-02, 12:49 PM
Naisy, I am very interested all Pagan religions and would like to know what the significance of the staff is?
r3port3r66
11-11-02, 04:45 PM
From what I understand about this religion is that there is "psychic" sympathy for those killed in the past, in name of religion. What exactly does this mean?
Sir Toose
11-11-02, 05:51 PM
Hey man
I'm not looking for a fight, I seek only knowledge.
Who is Mother Earth? Was she created by God? Is she equal to God? Is she equal to Jesus?
How does Satan fit in? The bible says Satan is master of the earth and those who trod on it's surface are fair game for him. Does Earth Mother fight Satan? I realize that the two are opposing forces...correct?
Originally posted by Caitlyn
Naisy, I am very interested all Pagan religions and would like to know what the significance of the staff is?
well i guess firstly you should know that all wiccans are pagan and not all pagans are wiccan (as quoted from the site) pagan is just like a catagory in which wicca is included, from what i know of wicca, the staff can be used to channel energy and can help in communicating with spirits, it isnt really a need but a want to which each idivdual chooses whether they want a staff or not, i do but for me it wouldnt be to increase power of anything like that. Basically the staff is just one of many tools used by wiccans when it comes to magic, there is also athames (sort of daggers) and candles and others as well which i can name if you want.
Originally posted by r3port3r66
From what I understand about this religion is that there is "psychic" sympathy for those killed in the past, in name of religion. What exactly does this mean?
well if youve read anything else on wicca you would know we are kinda in a lot of trouble when it comes to other religions prosecuting us. Well in the ages ago many innocent people were burnt and killed because they were "devil worshippers" and we feel sympathy towards those who rather than give up there choosen religion chose they continued there beliefs at the price of their life. Also whenever you should communicate with the dead or see spirits, we try and help them move on and ease their pain of an early death, because we can almost feel their pain within us. The link is hard to exaplain and the ability of feeling it is only in some of us and i think i am one of those few.
Originally posted by Toose
Hey man
I'm not looking for a fight, I seek only knowledge.
Who is Mother Earth? Was she created by God? Is she equal to God? Is she equal to Jesus?
How does Satan fit in? The bible says Satan is master of the earth and those who trod on it's surface are fair game for him. Does Earth Mother fight Satan? I realize that the two are opposing forces...correct?
Offically in wicca Satan doesnt exsist he was just a form made by Christians to scare people into their religion, i personally disagree and so do many others now days, so like Christians now allow homosexuals into their churchs, we believe that their is a surpreme evil. there has always been a dark force and a powerful thing it is, extremely hard to banish. So if your going by ancient rules than Satan doesnt exsist if your going to modern rules than yes Mother Earth allows the energy to banish evil spirits to flow through the person/witch chanelling it.
Nasiy, I believe it very important to understand what people believe, so if you could break it down for me I would appericate it as, one should always understand what people believe and why. So having said that please elaborate.
Well Naisy, Im interested in what you believe, I will read what you upload, but it's important that you say what you feel or believe, so I will wait to review your documents, thank you.
The Silver Bullet
11-12-02, 11:40 PM
Carissa is Wiccan.
I did not know that.
um yeah just tell the whole internet, she has worse problems with people doing "gods work" than i do, i worry about her. She has been Wiccan much longer than I, MUCH LONGER. Although she has done things that i have found wrong, im glad to see that she has converted to using the good side of Wicca. I love her for the progress she has made, Wicca quite possibly saved her life, but uh yeah i dont really think i can say anymore on an open forum other than I love her.
The Silver Bullet
11-12-02, 11:47 PM
PM me.
I straight out asked her about it. And you're right, she hates people discussing God. We were doing so today and someone said, "Funny thing is that God is watching even if you don't believe in him."
She sorta went nuts.
PM me.
Sorry entire Internet. Didn't mean to tell you.
:rolleyes:
Silverbullet is that an undertone not to talk about God on this site?
:nope: an undertone for me not to talk about her on an open forum in which the subject is about Wicca, we have bugger loads of forums on god doesnt exsist, religion, god, its a popular debate, im surprised you want to talk about wicca when your profile says you enjoy bible study and your signature is a quotation from Genesis.
Why is that hard to understand, I simply want to know what you believe showing first Im opening minded, doesnt mean I will agree with you, but simply understanding you is showing I care about your thoughts, be they different from mine.
Im not sure if there is still a password on this stuff but if there is the password should be rissanaismith i made this file a while ago. Some of the information will repeat itself and some may not even be wicca but it should give you an idea on what we are about.
Well Nasiy Winzip wont work for what ever reason, can you put info to word
What is Wicca?Wicca is an Initiatory, Oathbound, Magick-using, Pagan Mystery Priesthoodcelebrating the Mysteries contained in theLegend of the Descent of the Goddess and in the Charge of the Goddess.The word wicca was originally the Old English word meaning "a male witch"; "a female witch" was a wicce; the craft of witches, or "witchcraft", was wiccecraeft; and "to bewitch" was wiccian. Just as the Old English words wicca and wicce evolved into the modern English word "witch", so too the word wiccecraeft evolved into the modern English word "witchcraft".Our modern English word "witch" is the correct term for anyone who practices witchcraft, the magickal arts of a witch. Nevertheless, there are people who practice the magickal side of witchcraft but not the religious; such folk may be called witches, but they are not Witches. The use of Witch as a proper noun denotes a religious practitioner, of whom Wiccans are a proper subset: "All Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccan."The word Wicca refers to British Traditional Witchcraft, also called English Traditional Witchcraft: a specific magickal Mystery tradition that evolved down through the centuries along with the evolution of the English people and the English language. The use of the Old English word Wicca distinguishes British Traditional Witchcraft from the many other forms of religious Witchcraft that exist.While it might seem odd that the Old English word for "male witch" is used today for a kind of Witchcraft, the English language has often used the masculine gender for a mixed gender plural. For example, the word brethren is used of a mixed-gender group of people related by blood, faith, philosophy, or other affiliation; in other words, "brethren" is used as a synonym for "brothers and sisters". The Wiccan Law of the Craft speaks of "the Brethren", "Brothers and Sisters", "the Craft", and "the Wicca"; clearly, all of these terms are mixed-gender plurals including both male and female. So while the Old English form was "wiccecraeft", the modern usage has become "Wicca Craft": the Craft of the Wicca.The following paragraphs explain the terms used in the definition of Wicca in more detail:Initiatory The term Initiatory refers to the Spiritual Initiation that can only be received from the Gods, and to the ritual of Initiation by which an individual is brought into Wicca and consecrated as a Priest(ess) and Witch. Oathbound The term Oathbound refers to the Oath of secrecy regarding the "Secrets of the Art" which the Initiate swears during their Initiation. The concept of Initiaton, involving an Oath of secrecy, has always been a hallmark of the Pagan Mysteries, for example the Mysteries of Isis and the Eleusinian Mysteries. Magick-using The term Magick-using refers to the fact that Wicca is a form of Witchcraft, and therefore all Wiccans are Witches. As such, they practice the Magickal Art, which is part of the Witches' traditional Craft. Magick may be defined as "causing change to occur in conformity to will, through the proper direction of the proper force, in the proper degree, in the proper manner, to achieve the desired result." There are some modern Pagans who call themselves Wiccan, but who deny that the word Wicca has anything to do with Witchcraft or the practice of Magickal Arts; but as we have seen, the etymological and historical evidence clearly proves otherwise. "All Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccan." Pagan The term Pagan refers to the fact that Wicca is one of the Pagan religions that have always existed in the world, religions which affirm that Nature is not apart from, but is a living part of the Divine, and that the Universe is a many-layered Reality in which the ancient Goddesses and Gods worshipped from the earliest times live, move, and have Their Being. The medieval Church insisted those Pagan Deities were "the Devil", and that the Priests and Priestesses who served those Deities were "servants of the Devil". And so the Church viewed those who called themselves the Wicca, the Witches, as devil-worshippers, the servants of evil. While there are those who deny that the word Witch was ever connected with the worship of Pagan Deities, the etymological and historical evidence clearly proves otherwise. "All Wiccans are Pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan." Mystery The term Mystery refers to a "Divine Secret" or spiritual truth conveyed to the Initiate by means of a secret rite; for the Mysteries themselves cannot be fully expressed in words, since even if that spiritual truth could be fully expressed verbally, it is the inner spiritual experience of that truth which conveys full comprehension and accomplishes the spiritual Initiation. Priesthood Etymologists derive the Old English words wicce and wicca from the Indo-European root weik, which according to Webster's New World Dictionary meant, "to separate (hence set aside for religious worship)." In other words, "to consecrate". That original meaning, in reference to people rather than to places or things, clearly indicates consecration to a specific Priesthood. In Wicca, the Initiate is consecrated as both Priest(ess) and Witch, thus the word Wicca unites the concepts of "specific consecrated Priesthood", and of "practitioner of the witches' magickal craft", in a single word.
The three fold law
Whatever you do comes back three times, weather it is three times worse (better) or on three separate times depends on what is chosen by thou lady. This happenes with both good and bad things you do.
What about initiation?
An initiation is used to mark one as a recognized part of a group. It means that the person has the intention of following the path chosen. Each Wiccan tradition has its own ceremony. In these traditions, you are only recognized as Wiccan if you have undergone such a ceremony. These rites are usually secret.
It is not necessary to have been initiated to be Wiccan. The ceremonies performed by the different traditions are important in the traditions themselves, but real initiation comes from inside, it is not just ceremonial. When you see beauty in clouds drifting by, when you feel excitement and wonder in seeing a flock of birds wheeling overhead, when you feel the magic in the air when trees fill out in spring, you are truly Wiccan. Wicca is a way of life, living in harmony with nature, feeling the change of seasons and celebrating nature. The ceremony is just that, unless you feel it inside. An initiation is an experience that is felt deep. It is not necessary for a high priestess or priest to stand over you. Each one of us is our own priest or priestess.
If you feel the need to express yourself in ceremony, you can perform a self-initiation. Even though it is not performed in a coven, it is still important to take this seriously. This is not a game. This is a serious comment on the part of the initiate to learn all he/she can about the chosen path. Wiccans may use magick, but that is not all there is to Wicca. It is learning all you can about this earth we live on. Respect it for what is. Learn the cycles of life, and celebrate the magick all around us.
Do I need to find a coven?
It is not necessary. Some people work well in a group, some are better solitary. It is up to you. Do not feel that in order to be a "real" witch you need to be part of a coven. Some find the political power struggles that go on in most covens to be too much of a distraction from the purpose of a coven, to work together. A person new to the group might be intimitated by the leaders and not follow his/her own feelings as to what is best. Feelings are important, you must do what you feel is the right thing for a particular situation. Trust yourself and your abilities.
How to Become a Wiccan or Witch
Being a Wiccan or Witch is generally not something you are born as or just wake up one morning and decide to become. More often than not, you come across it by accident unless you were raised that way. Many find the philosophies of how Wicca and Witchcraft view nature are the same as the one's they currently hold. They just didn't know there was a specific belief system that shared the same views.
As Silver Raven Wolf accurately stated in her book To Ride A Silver Broomstick. "The Charge comes to each of us in a different manner. It is that moment in our lives when we feel the Magic of the Universe for the very first time coursing through us... and we know beyond all real and imagined shadows that this calling to the mysteries is indeed there. That it is truly there, and not a whimsical flight from reality."
If you are one who has seen striking similarities between what you believe and have found here, there are generally accepted ways to increase your awareness and find communion with others who feel the same. The following are the steps I would recommend to any one who wishes to learn more.
Read everything you can get your hands on that will tell you more about the beliefs of Wicca and Witchcraft. Only by learning as much as you can about the basic beliefs and tenets of this path can you decide if the old ways are right for you.
While doing this, you will begin to form associations and hopefully find correspondences within yourself. Note these feelings in a journal or diary. Write down the reasons you think Witchcraft is your path. What does being a Witch mean to you? What do you hope to achieve and learn? What do you fear about following this path? How do you see the Goddess and God? What does the Divine mean to you? Be absolutely honest with yourself here, this is a private book and nobody else will ever read it. This notebook will help you design your dedication/self-initiation ritual and eventually evolve into your Book of Shadows.
There are no right or wrong answers and it is not a test. It is only a way to help you define your understanding of this path.
Most importantly, listen to your inner voice. It is usually very good council and will not lead you astray. If something you read, hear or are told does not feel right, then it usually isn't right for you. If everything still feels right and you are sure Witchcraft is the path for you wish to follow after all this studying, now is the time to perform a dedication ritual.
This ritual should be yours and yours alone. Design it however you want to and in a way that will be most meaningful to you. A dedication ritual means exactly what it sounds like. You are dedicating yourself to the Craft and making the decision to live life in closer harmony and balance with the earth and nature. You are making a commitment to yourself and the Divine.
Mine was on the shore of a remote high cascade mountain lake here in Oregon. The dancing light of the campfire on the trees, a full moon reflecting off the snow pack fed waters of the lake all combined with the energy of surrounding nature. This setting was ideal for me but something completely different might be right for you.
I haven't mentioned anything about spells because you need to complete the first two steps before you even think about working with spells.
Before you begin working with magic, you need to understand what it is, where it comes from and the ethics involved. You will also need to learn and understand the basic structure of rituals, Casting circles, calling quarters, invoking the Goddess and God, raising and directing energy, grounding, centering and closing the circle.
Magic is raising and channeling the energy found in yourself, nature and in the Divine. A Witch combines this energy with their focused efforts. It takes dedication, effort, energy and hard work to achieve a desired result. The main ethical tenet to always remember is the point of the Witches Rede:
"An It Harm None."
Magic is not Hollywood hocus-pocus. It is not bending the natural order of things to fit your needs or desires. If that is what you are looking for, you are in the wrong place.
Witches have had enough bad press over the past few centuries and are working hard to turn those misconceptions around. We do not need people running around claiming to put spells and hexes on people because they cannot face reality, are not willing to work for what they want or are looking for an easy solution to their problems. Magic doesn't work that way...
You will also find that meditation and visualization exercises will increase your concentration. The ability to focus and visualize will greatly increase the power of your magic. Breathing exercises will help you focus as well so spend time on them.
If you are interested in joining a Coven, most will require the traditional year and a day of study before initiating new members. This gives you time to explore the religion and decide if it is the right path for you as well as giving you and the Coven member’s time to get to know one another. Covens are generally very selective and rightfully so. There are many out there who seek this path for all the wrong reasons.
Warnings & Cautions For The
New Wiccan or Witch
If you've looked at this site at all, you've seen the wonderful things that happen when you begin following a Wiccan path. I've been asked to discuss the not-so-nice things that can happen. I'm not trying to scare anyone off, just give you enough information so you can make an informed decision.
1. The Shadows are out there:
They exist, in the invisible world that parallels our own, living creatures. Unlike creatures from our world, they lack physical form, and feed on energy instead of matter. They are as varied as the animal life on our world. They range in size (power) from the equivalent of insects and rodents to the equivalent of magically trained humans, and beyond to the Great Old Ones. (My land is inhabited by one of these-it gives the psychic impression of a mountain with legs. It is not unfriendly, but an elephant is not unfriendly toward ants either. I stay out of our woods when it is about.) I mentioned that these creatures feed on energy. Most are content to graze on the random energy fields that leak from humans and other creatures in our world. Others, however, are a little more sinister. These, the ones you have to worry about, I call the Shadows.
Shadows come in three basic varieties. First are the little ones that feed off the energy in negative emotions. If you are emitting strong negativity, they will be drawn to you like flies to rotten meat. If you aren't magically protected, they will happily latch onto your energy field (aura) and snack on it. They are usually not much more troublesome than leeches or mosquitoes; however, a thousand leeches could weaken a person severely.
Next come the more dangerous variety, more like rats or vultures than mosquitoes. These are attracted both by negative emotions and the energy of magical workings. They are stronger, and can push past weak or flawed defenses to get to you. And they are much harder to peel loose once they have their teeth into you.
Last are the intelligent variety. Their favorite meal is human life energy, the 'heart-fire' that burns in each of us. They are relatively rare even in their own realm, but they exist. The terms 'Imp' , 'Evil Spirit' and 'Demon' are fairly accurate. They are very strong. The more intelligent ones are capable of working their own Magic to breach your defenses. The most intelligent variety , being as lazy as humans, prefer to talk you into dropping your defenses and linking your energy field to theirs. ("Open yourself to me, and I will grant you power beyond your wildest dreams." Yeah, right.) They also are capable (if someone is helpful enough to open a doorway for them) of entering our world. Once here, if they can get past all your defenses unless you are very strong at warding. They can enter your body and feast at will, even asserting a degree of control over you. Yes, this is exactly like the old stories of Demon possession.
2. You - yes, you can be a Vampire:
There exist in this world evil creatures. They are highly intelligent, capable of working magic, and extremely devious. They are capable of not only psychic magical attacks, but physical ones as well. As a species, they tend to be amoral, murderous animals. I call them 'humans'. Humans are also capable of 'feeding' off the energies of other humans- Herne (owner of this website) calls them "Psychic Vampires". They do this to gain more magical power, to control others, or to replace the energies they are losing by dealing with the Shadows. Some humans can even do this while traveling astrally. So that Evil Spirit that tried to get into your last circle may not have been from the other side; it could have been your next-door neighbor.
3. Oops! Did I just do that?
Magic is an art form. Despite the best efforts of Ritual Magicians and Technopagans, it remains as unpredictable and powerful as the weather unless you are highly skilled and focused. Scientists studying weather prediction in the 1970's discovered something amazing. Weather, they found, is so unstable as to be impossible to predict more than a day or two in advance. In fact, computer models suggested something they called the Butterfly Theory. It seems that the air disturbed by a butterfly taking off from a cactus in Mexico, if it happened at the right time and place, could in theory cause devastating storms and tornadoes in the U.S. Midwest. Magic is very similar. Each action we take, magical or mundane, has consequences that spread out from it like the ripples in a pond.
They spread out, touching everything- and reflect back to converge on the source. Be very sure, then, before you work magic, exactly what the consequences may be. Ask yourself, "If this spell backfires on me, and affects me instead of the intended target, can I live with the result?" Thus, I tend to use magic "only in direst need, and then must the cause be just" (author unknown).
Some Wicca’s counsel about how rain on your fields could cause drought elsewhere. This might be true, if you are trying with your own personal power to 'squeeze' the rain clouds as they pass over. But asking the Lady and Lord for the blessing of rain for everybody's crops is a different thing entirely. Selfish magic has negative consequences: Loving, giving magic only positive ones. For Selfishness is the true root of all-evil. "I want it! Destroy the world, let Chaos take the universe, as long as I get what I want!" Be careful of what you ask, you just may get it...
4. Power corrupts:
So, you've studied hard, learned all about Wiccan magic, and now you find you can really do things. All the power of the Elements is yours to command. Love, money, power, respect- all these are yours. You are special. You are powerful. You are a God! Now, you must convince others to worship you, to lend you their energy so that your power can grow. But that's OK, because you are a loving God, and you want only what's best for your worshipers. And you know what's best for them, for you know all, and see all. For you alone are God of this world you have created.
Can't happen? Do the names Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon or David Koresh ring a bell? It is important to remember that the gift of magical power is just that- a gift from the Lady and Lord. It must never be abused. And glorifying yourself because of something lent to you is like showing up at your class reunion in a borrowed suit and a rented Jaguar. This reason and this reason alone is why you will not find the Council of this site posting or trading spells and rituals. We don't hand out loaded guns here.
In my next article, I will try to teach the basics of magical defense- how to keep the Shadows at bay, how to shield yourself from negative energy, and what to do if you suspect you are being attacked psychically. Until then, Merry Part. And don't link your life force to anything with glowing red eyes and a black aura.
This is all I can post right now but it should be significant!!! If any questions just ask I will happily fix it up, some of the above information will defiantly repeat itself as it has come from many sources, sorry about that. BTW did you use the “rissanaismith” password with the zip file?
Originally posted by The Silver Bullet
I straight out asked her about it. And you're right, she hates people discussing God. We were doing so today and someone said, "Funny thing is that God is watching even if you don't believe in him."
She sorta went nuts.
:rolleyes: Anyone who can't handle the mere concept has issues. Probably has a personal vendetta against religion based on some bad experience in the past, if I had to guess. Either way, sounds kinda whacked out.
Naisy I have printed the information, once I have read it I will respond. Thanks.
Originally posted by Yoda
:rolleyes: Anyone who can't handle the mere concept has issues. Probably has a personal vendetta against religion based on some bad experience in the past, if I had to guess. Either way, sounds kinda whacked out.
I wouldnt roll your eyes about it Chris, its hard to remain open about religion when youve been given injuries because of it. Im suprised she hasnt been killed, I heard about this incident and well it seems there is more to it than what Sb has said :skeptical:
Ok Omega i will be waiting for your responce.
Well Naisy, SilverBullet has been injured from the church or religon?, I to have suffered greatly at the hands of other people, so much so that I stepped away from the church for about 12 years. If indeed SilberBullet was injured Im sorry for that, it can be very painful. However I think it's important that we remember that the church is made up of people that are trying to be better people each day. It took me 12 yrs to start back, Im glad I did.
The Silver Bullet
11-15-02, 12:35 AM
I wouldnt roll your eyes about it Chris, its hard to remain open about religion when youve been given injuries because of it. Im suprised she hasnt been killed, I heard about this incident and well it seems there is more to it than what Sb has said
No. If she is saying there was more to it than a discussion on religion that she got all snooty about, she is lying.
I agree with Chris.
That and I personally think you sound very naive when you say that religion has endangered her life. Religion doesn't kill people, I kill people.
No not Silver Bullet he is unharmed by religion as far as i know, it was my good friend who was and you need not be sorry you did nothing, nor could you have prevented it
The Silver Bullet
11-15-02, 12:43 AM
Da na na na, na na:
Roll those eyes now!
Da na na na, na na:
Let's act profound and stuff now!
Naisy, I have had an oppurtunity to read the imformation posted to this site provided by you, thank you. It appears what I understood about Wicca was confirmed with the information provided. That Wicca is another word for witch if this is what Im understanding. In a nut shell based on the information provided to be Wicca or to believe in the practice, one will be in touch with the enegry of nature, or mother earth, Gaya is her name if I spelled it correctly, and to be in tune and a oneness with the planet. This appears to be the first step of being Wicca, or the so called baby steps. I see that the use of spells is not encouraged due to carma, "do unto others sort of thing", and then of course the part that got me sitting on the edge of my seat was the expliation of the Shadow. I believe according to the Holy Bible the Shadow would be according to what I believe are fallen angels, cast from heaven by Michael the Arch angel, when Lucifer rebelled against God, it sez that he took a 1/3 of the angels of heaven with him when he was cast out.
I see according to what I have read that encouraging these spirits is not really something you want to do. The comments made in the final portion written by the author states that when one fully understands what being Wicca or the practice of Wicca then one becomes a "God", how can this be? I feel this is blasphemy in the purest sence of the word. How can anyone be equal with God, the creator of heaven and earth. We are created beings, but he has always been. I think it must also be pointed out that Lucifer himself is a created being, and he to thought he would exalt himself above God, and to play into his lie that we become "Gods" is to simply cause us to rebel and be as he was in the beginning. I understand he would hope that his followers would not come to the realization of this, but he is the father of lies.
I appericate you providing the information to me as I feel first If Im to make any kind of comment about something, I should have some sort of understanding about it. I must still ask you however what do you believe? I have read information from someone else as to what they believe, yet you yourself have not confirmed what your person beliefs are. Are you into spells, are you aware that God himself commanded his people to avoid such ones who were involved in Witchcraft, Soothsayers, Sorcerers and those who were involved in Necromancy "or those who speak to the dead".
It state's in the Holy Bible the book of Romans chapter 1 verse-25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more then the Creator, who is blessed forever.
This scripture deals with the worship of idols, and anything that distracts us from worshiping God is an idol in our life, in other words to say we become "Gods" attempts to pull our eyes away from the creator to the creature. This should not be, and I believe people err when they are drawn away from the creator of heaven and earth. He alone is worthly to be worshiped. I look forward to your response to my thoughts on this.
firegod
11-16-02, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Omega
I see according to what I have read that encouraging these spirits is not really something you want to do. The comments made in the final portion written by the author states that when one fully understands what being Wicca or the practice of Wicca then one becomes a "God", how can this be? I feel this is blasphemy in the purest sence of the word. How can anyone be equal with God, the creator of heaven and earth. We are created beings, but he has always been. I think it must also be pointed out that Lucifer himself is a created being, and he to thought he would exalt himself above God, and to play into his lie that we become "Gods" is to simply cause us to rebel and be as he was in the beginning. I understand he would hope that his followers would not come to the realization of this, but he is the father of lies.
Are you into spells, are you aware that God himself commanded his people to avoid such ones who were involved in Witchcraft, Soothsayers, Sorcerers and those who were involved in Necromancy "or those who speak to the dead".
It state's in the Holy Bible the book of Romans chapter 1 verse-25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more then the Creator, who is blessed forever.
This scripture deals with the worship of idols, and anything that distracts us from worshiping God is an idol in our life, in other words to say we become "Gods" attempts to pull our eyes away from the creator to the creature. This should not be, and I believe people err when they are drawn away from the creator of heaven and earth. He alone is worthly to be worshiped. I look forward to your response to my thoughts on this.
In YOUR religion it might be blasphemous. In YOUR holey bible YOUR god might be the only one who should be worshipped. However, in MY religion YOU are the blasphemer. The goddess of love who sits on my shoulder told me so.
On a serious note, how would you like it if a Buddhist analyzed your religion and told you what was wrong with it? That all of the Buddhist principles that person believes in are right, therefore some of what is in your religion is evil or foolish. I don't think you'd care for that very much. Fortunately Buddhists don't do that very often, and neither do Wiccans.
Well Firegod, I would think that people who are intelligent and strong in what they believe wont matter if other's have opinion's. I must correct you however, it is not MY religon, it is the belief in Jesus Christ the Son of the living God. And he is MY God, MY Father, MY Creator. What do you believe FireGod? or is that out of the question. I appericate the fact that Naisy was willing to provide me with information so I could understand more of what he sez he believes. I think to say that we should never have opinion's about what other's believe is both shallow and narrow minded. The entire world is set up of millions of people that have there own opinion's, I am simply stating mine, it is not intended to harm but to provoke discussion. So having said that thank you for your opinion even if I dont agree with it. Oh and I might suggest you tell the "IMP" on your shoulder it's wrong.
firegod
11-16-02, 07:30 PM
I don't think we should NEVER have opinions about what others believe. However, I do think we should be a little less judgemental than you, as well as a little less sure of ourselves.
Can you show me a good reason why my goddess is wrong? What makes your religion so correct and that of others so incorrect? Please enlighten us.
Well Firegod, Im not going to argue about it, this is of course really what you want. First you did not answer my question. It's easy to say Im being judgemental, let me ask you a question, if you tell someone your republician, and you tell them why you are. Then the other person responds I dont like republicians because. Are they being judgemental or are they simply expressing their opinion? As far as being sure of myself, if I wasnt, then how could I profess anything, A double minded man is unstable in all his ways, tossed to and frow with every wind of doctrine. As far as me being less sure of myself, I believe in God and his son Jesus Christ, he alone is the redeemer of mankind back to God. Should I profess these things then not be willing to be sure of my faith then I am just like the person who is tossed to and frow. What is your goddess Firegod? a demon, Imp, spirit what? I believe demon, a force from Hell itself and simply the powers of darkness will never overcome the powers of God and his son Jesus Christ.
firegod
11-16-02, 08:01 PM
My goddess is a figment of my imagination. And yes, if someone judges a Republican the way you are judging people who don't believe in your particular religion or your particular deity, then they are being too judgmental in my opinion.
Thank you for clearing that up Firegod, "IN YOUR OPINION" I guess we all have them don't we. When it comes to eternity maybe we should be more opinionated.
I dunno, fire...naturally I agree with the basics of what you're saying, but reading over Omega's post, I found him very plain and tolerant. Didn't come off as judgemental or pushy to me, personally...and I'd like to think that, even though he shares the same religion as I do, I'd be able to admit if he were crossing any lines of etiquette.
firegod
11-16-02, 08:14 PM
Try this out, ok Yoda?
"Yoda,
Don't you realize that believeing in your bible is blasphemous? There is no witchcraft in it; therefore it goes against the true nature of the universe. Do you pray? If you do, I hope you realize that your are going against the one great power."
Now, if I said that, I would be being a little too judgmental, just like Omega was. If he wants to preach his BS here, he certainly can, but I can give him the response his BS richly deserves.
In all honesty, your little demonstration hasn't changed my mind in the least. I wouldn't consider it "judgemental." Wrong? Sure...but not rude, or anything.
Not only that, but let's not forget that Mick places some stock in The Bible...he acknowledges it as a useful Book in general and does believe some of it. Not all...but some. Given that, I don't see it as out of line in the least.
Well I know for sure that judgeing people is God's responsibility. Proving what is said according to God's word is each person's responsibility who believe's in his word. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. I is my responsibility to myself to understand and compair what others think or believe and then compair it to what I believe. This of course will only create in me a stronger faith and belief of who God is and the power of his word.
firegod
11-16-02, 08:32 PM
I thought you said you wouldn't argue about it? And excerpts from your religious texts is NOT proof; it isn't even decent evidence in the slightest.
I dont believe I am arguing Firegod, Im simply stating that Iam required by my faith and belief in God to test what others say against what he sez, and of a truth wheather you believe that God's word is true or not carries no weight with me, I know in my heart that he is not a man that he could lie, nor the son of man that he should repent. He has spoken his word and he will preform it.
firegod
11-16-02, 08:39 PM
Believing that is fine; trying to force it down people's throat is a little different.
Firegod, will you get off it, your the only one complaining, are you everyone? and do you speak for everyone? "NOPE", just like I dont speak for everyone, so give it a rest, I got your point wont change anything, Im waiting for Naisy to respond so we can have a discussion on this.
firegod
11-16-02, 08:45 PM
Ok. I'll get off it. :)
:laugh:
Like a vaugely theological Abbott & Costello routine...
Your point Yoda? :laugh: I guess we could banter back and forth all night, I dont plan on it.
LordSlaytan
11-16-02, 10:47 PM
FIREGOD: "Who's on first?"
OMEGA: "God"
FIREGOD: " :rolleyes: CHRIST!!! "
OMEGA: "No, Christ's on second"
:D
Caitlyn
11-17-02, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by Omega
That Wicca is another word for witch if this is what Im understanding…
The word “Wicca” is Saxon in origins and translated does mean “Witch”… but “Witch” translated actually means “Wise”…
I believe according to the Holy Bible the Shadow would be according to what I believe are fallen angels, cast from heaven by Michael the Arch angel, when Lucifer rebelled against God, it sez that he took a 1/3 of the angels of heaven with him when he was cast out.
I don’t see how the Shadow could be the fallen angels you are talking about because they belong to the Christian religion and Wicca/Witches are not Christians so therefore do not even recognize the existence of the Christian God or Lucifer….
The comments made in the final portion written by the author states that when one fully understands what being Wicca or the practice of Wicca then one becomes a "God", how can this be? I feel this is blasphemy in the purest sence of the word. How can anyone be equal with God, the creator of heaven and earth. We are created beings, but he has always been. I think it must also be pointed out that Lucifer himself is a created being, and he to thought he would exalt himself above God, and to play into his lie that we become "Gods" is to simply cause us to rebel and be as he was in the beginning. I understand he would hope that his followers would not come to the realization of this, but he is the father of lies.
I personally have to agree with Firegod… although it may not be the way you meant it, some of this does sound judgmental… Pagan religions believe in a different God/Gods or Goddess than you do… to them, it doesn’t matter what the Bible says, they don’t believe in it and they have the right to choose not to believe just as you have to right to choose to believe… I don’t normally get involved in discussions on religion because I feel like each person has a right to his or her own beliefs as long as they do not harm anyone else and I am certainly not an expert on any of them... but I do know that a lot of Christians fear Witches because of superstitious nonsense that was started by the Church in Rome hundreds of years ago.....
Caitlyn, thanks for your opinion, and I would agree each person is in charge of what he or she believes, I wonder why it is that people dont want to talk about religon? or what they believe, In my opinion I think its just a way to keep people seperated and not talking. I am thinking to really get to know someone talk to them about those things that are closest to them. I would think that regardless if someone see's my view point or not, that people can have opinion's. As far a judgeing that is up to "God", as stated earlier.
Caitlyn
11-17-02, 04:56 PM
I can’t speak for anyone else , but I tend to shy away from religious discussions simply because they seem to inevitably end in arguments…
Caitlyn, I agree with that, however would you agree if I wanted to know what you believed and why, solely for the purpose of understanding why you believe those things would be good.
r3port3r66
11-17-02, 05:23 PM
With all due respect Omega, it does seem to me, having read your posts, that the only real interest you have about learning of other religions is to compare them to your own. Interest in humanities is one thing, but disguising your judgements as intrest, as it appears to me, is very closed-minded, sort of like a Trojan horse.
It's almost like you have more than one agenda, which is fine, but people can see through it. Your interest doesn't appear to be objective--with all due respect.
Well r3port3r66, I can appericate that, however I would think that most of us always compair what others think to what or how we do, so me doing that is not different. I have said I wanted information on Wicca, I received it and read it and yes compaired it to what I believe. Let me ask you if someone asked you how to fix a good drink so they could see what you consider to be a good drink, and then never use it, but however makes a comment about it does that mean there is a hidden agenda? No. I have learned from that information a portion of what Wicca believe, people do it everyday.
r3port3r66
11-17-02, 05:47 PM
Well, first they would have to taste the drink in order to make a valid judgement of it, or for me to take their opinion into consideration.
I have studied a few religions in my life, and I'm interested in learning about more...objectively, which is what I believe to be the purpose of this thread.
Now let me ask you something; You say you wanted and recieved information on Wicca, now that you have it, how do you plan to use it ?
Is that important? to simply say I want a better understanding of any one subject is I believe answer enough. Thats like saying I if had attended college, and all the english and math course's I took when all I wanted to do was be a opera singer, why take the course's, simply for more knowledge. That is my answer then to understand why some people believe what they do.
r3port3r66
11-17-02, 06:16 PM
I believe you're right. But when I see words like "blasphemy" and
"How can anyone be equal with God", and "God, the creator of heaven and Earth..." in your posts, I have to wonder if it's understanding you seek, or exception.
:modest:
Well it is, according to what I believe, of course you did notice I followed up that comment with a question. How can anyone be equal with God? What I think is interesting is that Naisy has not responded to my inquire, but you, Firegod, and Yoda have.
Prepare yourselves, ive posted the last two days of healthy posting as i havent been logged on since this stuff was posted!well here we gooooooooooo:
Originally posted by Omega
That Wicca is another word for witch if this is what Im understanding. In a nut shell based on the information provided to be Wicca or to believe in the practice, one will be in touch with the enegry of nature, or mother earth, Gaya
There is no specific name for the godess and there is more than one goddess.
This appears to be the first step of being Wicca, or the so called baby steps. I see that the use of spells is not encouraged due to carma, "do unto others sort of thing", and then of course the part that got me sitting on the edge of my seat was the expliation of the Shadow. I believe according to the Holy Bible the Shadow would be according to what I believe are fallen angels, cast from heaven by Michael the Arch angel, when Lucifer rebelled against God, it sez that he took a 1/3 of the angels of heaven with him when he was cast out.
Well maybe compared with your book that might be so, but we regard shadows as those who are basically Physic Vampires, feeding off the energy of others and leaving negative energies. Otherwise known as demons but not under the command of any satan.
I see according to what I have read that encouraging these spirits is not really something you want to do. The comments made in the final portion written by the author states that when one fully understands what being Wicca or the practice of Wicca then one becomes a "God", how can this be? I feel this is blasphemy in the purest sence of the word. How can anyone be equal with God, the creator of heaven and earth.
Your wrong in IMNHO, we do not regard ourselves as God in a creator or better than everyone else sense but rather that we regard ourselves to be a close friend of Gods, his equal rather than his children, we thank for the gift of life and we regard ourselves as Gods, rather than his servants, ahhh how do I put this simply? Basically we do not regard ourselves as a God as in all powerful, but like regard all things equal and as written in our ancient system we were made by God to be friends of God, not minons.
I think it must also be pointed out that Lucifer himself is a created being, and he to thought he would exalt himself above God, and to play into his lie that we become "Gods" is to simply cause us to rebel and be as he was in the beginning. I understand he would hope that his followers would not come to the realization of this, but he is the father of lies.
We do not rebel against God, we still pray and it is up to The Gods and Goddesses to grant our request to power a spell. There are dark Gods as well, but I make it specific that im talking to the God of Greatness and Light and that my prayer shalt not fall apon the ears of the darkness.
still ask you however what do you believe? I have read information from someone else as to what they believe, yet you yourself have not confirmed what your person beliefs are. Are you into spells, you aware that God himself commanded his people to avoid such ones who were involved in Witchcraft, Soothsayers, Sorcerers and those who were involved in Necromancy " Those who speak to the dead".
I firstly direct you to the Italic text, in YOUR book, in YOUR belief system this is true, not in ours. Yes im into spells, I have a book of spells ive collected (sounds childish right? But I like to be prepared just incase) but I have never cast a single one.
This scripture deals with the worship of idols, and anything that distracts us from worshiping God is an idol in our life, in other words to say we become "Gods" attempts to pull our eyes away from the creator to the creature. This should not be, and I believe people err when they are drawn away from the creator of heaven and earth. He alone is worthly to be worshiped. I look forward to your response to my thoughts on this.
Firstly we are not distracted in honouring the Gods, we do it each time we plant a seed, sing a song, sometimes ive been known to say a poem not to please the Gods but to honour them.
Originally posted by firegod
In YOUR religion it might be blasphemous. In YOUR holey bible YOUR god might be the only one who should be worshipped. However, in MY religion YOU are the blasphemer. The goddess of love who sits on my shoulder told me so.
On a serious note, how would you like it if a Buddhist analyzed your religion and told you what was wrong with it? That all of the Buddhist principles that person believes in are right, therefore some of what is in your religion is evil or foolish. I don't think you'd care for that very much. Fortunately Buddhists don't do that very often, and neither do Wiccans.
:yup: I thought it a good idea to make note of that post and is basically what I have said. Why compare everyone elses religion to yours Omega? You may feel your religion superiour (which is fine otherwise you wouldn’t have choosen it) but I feel my religon is my way to reach peace in spirit with me.
Originally posted by Omega
Well Firegod, I would think that people who are intelligent and strong in what they believe wont matter if other's have opinion's.
I don’t think it does matter what others opinions are but when they act them out, and choose violence to get their point across, than I do mind, im not exactly strong in body but I am in heart.
I must correct you however, it is not MY religon, it is the belief in Jesus Christ the Son of the living God. And he is MY God, MY Father, MY Creator. reasonable point that, but I think its obvious that what he meant was the religion that you chose.
Originally posted by Yoda
In all honesty, your little demonstration hasn't changed my mind in the least. I wouldn't consider it "judgemental." Wrong? Sure...but not rude, or anything.
Not only that, but let's not forget that Mick places some stock in The Bible...he acknowledges it as a useful Book in general and does believe some of it. Not all...but some. Given that, I don't see it as out of line in the least.
:) Thank you Chris, that’s exactly right!
Originally posted by firegod
Believing that is fine; trying to force it down people's throat is a little different.
:yup: I agree, disturbing me in my own home to tell me that im not happy, I find it to be a tad tiring. I believe it is said in the bible to spread the word of the lord and try and save as many souls as possible, but nowdays everyone knows about the lord but now
Originally posted by Omega
Firegod, will you get off it, your the only one complaining, are you everyone? and do you speak for everyone? "NOPE", just like I dont speak for everyone, so give it a rest, I got your point wont change anything.
Im complaining as well :D so he isnt alone
Originally posted by Caitlyn
The word “Wicca” is Saxon in origins and translated does mean “Witch”… but “Witch” translated actually means “Wise”…
I don’t see how the Shadow could be the fallen angels you are talking about because they belong to the Christian religion and Wicca/Witches are not Christians so therefore do not even recognize the existence of the Christian God or Lucifer….
well your just full of wise surprises arent you!!! You 100% right there. :D I wish I had read it before I spoke above.
Pagan religions believe in a different God/Gods or Goddess than you do… to them, it doesn’t matter what the Bible says, they don’t believe in it and they have the right to choose not to believe just as you have to right to choose to believe…but I do know that a lot of Christians fear Witches because of superstitious nonsense that was started by the Church in Rome hundreds of years ago..... [/B]
Oh gosh darn it I could Kiss ya :D Please regard that quoted post as one of my own! You might not be an expert but you know a healthy amount my friend!
Originally posted by Omega
I wonder why it is that people dont want to talk about religon?
I find it hard to discuss religion outside of this place because not everyone out in the real world has an open enough mind to understand they rather here the name witch assosiate that with evil and than shut off to our explainations. I only post here as I regard the regulars here as personal comrades who I wouldn’t judge me on my religion but in the real world that is unfortunatly not the case.
Originally posted by Omega
What I think is interesting is that Naisy has not responded to my inquire, but you, Firegod, and Yoda have.
whats so interesting? I havent logged in since you had posted this stuff ok? So forgive my slow reply, I don’t log on, on weekends just weekdays but now im here to happily fulfill your wish and reply (as you can see). I apologise for the length but I just found in reading back over the last two days of posts some things were just too good to go past without mention. I think that should anwser your questions. I made this thread i hardly was going to run away, im a stubborn fighter :D
Well Naisy, since you feel that Im intruding into your home with my ideals, I will not speak of them. However I accept your response and am not offended, and dont feel as if you are invading my space. Having said that thanks for the information, and Im sure If I were to meet you on the street or in person, you might find me to be more open minded then you give me credit for.
LordSlaytan
11-17-02, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Naisy
Well maybe compared with your book that might be so, but we regard shadows as those who are basically Physic Vampires.
Why are you talking about my ex-wife? I thought this was a discussion about Wiccans. :D
Originally posted by Omega
Well Naisy, since you feel that Im intruding into your home with my ideals, I will not speak of them. However I accept your response and am not offended, and dont feel as if you are invading my space. Having said that thanks for the information, and Im sure If I were to meet you on the street or in person, you might find me to be more open minded then you give me credit for.
I dont feel you are intruding at all, its just you keep comparing and stating my religion as if it is just made up of your values, you say that our shadows to your Satan, you ask me if i think its wrong to practise witchcraft because The Bible says so, i mean think about it though, if i was really concerned with everything the bible said wouldnt i NOT be wiccan? I find you to be reasonably open minded for just asking for the information, but you probably shouldnt ask if i fnd anything in the religion to be so wrong and against god, because if i did than obviously i wouldnt be a believer of it.
Originally posted by LordSlaytan
Why are you talking about my ex-wife? I thought this was a discussion about Wiccans. :D
:rotfl:
BTW you wanted me to respond Omega and that i did! In my honest way, i said what came to my head.
Well Naisy, yes you did respond, and I appericated that fact you were willing to provide information, but can you tell me if you would, why do you believe what you do? what I mean is this, you might say you like the fact that Wiccans are one with nature and that is why you like the religon, thats what I mean.
I believe what i do because after being introduced to this religion and after reasearching it, more and more in my heart i knew this was my path, i respected it wasnt everyones, but after so many freaky experiences, i knew in my heart and mind this was my path, my craft and for once i felt like i was good at something and i felt spirtually that i belonged and had a much needed purpose and now i reverse that question onto you.
That's fair, after all the trama in my life, I asked God to forgive me for the things I had done wrong against myself and other's, I reached a point where I new my life needed to change, and not only did he forgive me but I felt the hand of God touch my life once again. For those reason's I serve him, that my life and heart have changed because of him. I realize he truly love's me and I want to serve him. This path is laid out before me, and he has called me to walk it.
Also Naisy, after reading your response, I can tell you were really being honest, I apperciate that, It seems you have walked a few roads to get to this one.
Yes i can safely say ive walked many foolish choices in my time but this one should it turn out to be foolish i dont think i will regret!
Here are other debates on the same topic in other threads, just incase you had thought of already argued points to make :D (unfortuanatly i think they are all in reverse order but it shouldnt matter)
FROM OTHER THREADS
Originally posted by Naisy
well it is kinda hard to explain without being called crazy, should you really want more information you can go to this site which contains a lot of wicca information (in a very general sort of way) (http://www.wicca.com) but basically, people have power within, the mind and the heart, byasking nature,the godess and the its possible for magic to be produced, we respect nature as all things require nature to live and we have a law of three, basically whatever we do good or bad comes back to us either three times as good/bad OR comes back in three seperate events.
Wicca is one of the pagan religions (which i think you would know is one of the religions in which has been around since the start of time). aww what else ok im making this up on the spot so if it gets confusing or anythign just tell me because i havent quoted anything here!
Magic can be anything from control over weather, protection against evil, basically anything the mind can muster, other than material possesions. It was a fair stretch for most minds to believe and even i was a skeptic at first and than after a few things in which i practically sh** my pants in, i started to believe. Its not the path for everyone but it is mine. Typically we are just all normal people, youve probably met them down the street and wouldnt know it, we dont tend to be gothic, but few choose to be. We are normally secret that we are wiccans because there are those who mistaken us for evil satan worshippers and do in fact want us dead (yes SB that makes two of the three you now know against me), i dont hold any grudges against these people but i do wish they would find out more about it before taking on the task of gods work in ridding the world of us. awww what else is there, although in wicca we are called witch's, magic is a very small part of it, in fact im one of the few that hasnt cast a spell in my two and a half years, but i am a wiccan because the life style it has is so flexable and is like me, i respect nature, i respect the fellow man, my word is as strong as a written and witnessed oath and other things like that and as ive said before to Chris no i dont believe you have to be wiccan to do these things but i am as it is my choice and my way of life. I think that should do it before we turn this into ANOTHER thread about religion, so anything else debate in a religion forum (just quote this if you want).
Originally posted by Yoda
Some Christians have the wrong idea about Wicca. That is, they see it as a threat. They see it as The Devil incarnate...which is ridiculous. Here's how they should handle it: dismiss it. I'm sorry, Mick, because I know that sounds harsh. You know I think you're a great guy (genuinely), but, in my mind, Wicca doesn't hold up very well. Christians often make the mistake of taking it seriously...as if it's trying to steal people from them. Frankly, they ought to regard it as inconsequential. Jerry Falwell and other like-minded "Christian leaders" (don't let their own claims to hold that position fool you) need to ignore such things. Instead, they play them up as some major obstacle to Christianity.
The thing about Wicca is that, well, I simply don't believe any magic can really be done reliably. For every spell that supposedly caused rain, I've got to imagine there's a weatherman who knew it would happen a week ago...and for every spell that supposedly caused rain on a day that was not supposed to have any, I've got to imagine there are a dozen failed attempts. And if these things cannot happen with any regularity, why are they regarded as utterly factual?
Aside from that, Wicca feels too much like a "Quilt Religion" as it were. It is a blend of so many other things...now, that makes fine sense if the final product is merely described as a good way of living...but to describe it as the TRUTH seems a bit more far-fetched. Not only that, but, according to the site Mick linked us to...
"The whole premise of our belief system is based on living in harmony with all things that exist. This includes, but is not limited to the earth, trees, rivers, lakes, oceans, air, and all of earth's creatures, as well as other people without regard to race, color, religion, or sexual orientation."
This sounds fine, of course, but how many Wiccans do you know who do not wear, say, leather? And if they do avoid leather, do they not live in houses made of wood? Do they use only plastic desks? And if not, how do they reconcile these things? Or is there a way to chop down a tree while still being in "harmony" with it?
Originally posted by Naisy
I so knew this was going to happen are you telling me to dismiss my religion? or telling me to dismiss the people running around with knives? because either one is not going to happen.
For everything we take away from nature we apologize and replant, we ask before we take, we ask the spirits that are within the tree's just as others ask god for signs.
Its hard to find a balance and i agree sometimes it overlaps but i know a Christian who stands for the bibke swear its the right path but still goes out every night and attempts to have sex without the bounds of marrage, to which is replied "you cant follow every rule" and there is more than one, so i guess not all things are followed by the book all the time.
We apologize and offer gifts, and no we dont sacrafice children or goats as gifts, we plant trees, plants and look after naature as best we can.
I too have found it hard to believe magic really exsists in the forms ive said as well, as i said i once disbelieved like you Chris, but my experiences hve told me although there is supposedly no limit there is limit IMO.
How many coincidents have to happen before you believe that something else is at play? You have to go to casting a spell with no doubt in your mind that you can perform the spell but with the recongnition that it might not work every time, but for every three castings ive seen fail, ive seen more work, does that make is coincidence or possible?
Like i said magic is only a small part of the religion so why call it impossible or wrong? all religions have their flaws as does ours. You also say that some christians take wicca seriously, so what else is there? should they take it as a joke? that i do take personally, all throughout our debates never has a personal statement been taken or made but to say that Wicca shouldnt be taken seriously is basically the same as calling me a fool for what i have choosen to belive and live by. :furious:
I dont believe we are a threat to Christianity, but what you are suggesting is that we are nothing. Mearly people that believe in something impossible and stupid because science can prove us wrong in some things, yet there are things that science cannot prove to be wrong, facts and fiction? who is to say what is what when it comes to religion? it comes down to the believer, you believe it wrong, yet although once i shared your opinion, through my own burden of proof been satisflied, i have changed my opinion.
I might not be as intellectual as Bullet, i might not be as technologically talented as you Chis, but i am no moron, ive got a brain and whats more i have what i believe (once again i could be wrong) to have a large heart. and if what path ive chosen turns out to be completely wrong than i will apologize, and eat my hat.
When you show me that i am wrong, i will even leave the path ive chosen and live with no religion, but i dont think it will happen. I allow the possibility that im wrong, i allow the possibility that my religion might not be perfect but im closed minded enough to faithfully continue with it. Thank you all and have a bloody nice day.
Originally posted by Yoda
Whoooooaaa...relax, Mick. :)
That depends on what you mean. Do I think your religion is incorrect? Well, yeah...if I didn't, I'd be a member of it. I have no particularly strong desire to change your mind over it, though. If you want to believe it, I won't stand in your way...it's just my habit to ask questions about these sorts of things.
I argue a lot. It's in my blood.
"You see, I have this...condition." ;D
I hate to be so technical, but how does that work? Do you ask that sort of thing everytime you, say, buy something containing wood, or step on grass, or some other such plant? When you say you replant, does that mean you plant trees after buying houses, or furniture, etc? How would that work with leather?
It's true that people make mistakes...but that doesn't justify them. They are still mistakes and should be acknowledged as such (that clearly goes for all religions...so don't get me wrong there).
I don't know how many coincidences I need to see...depends on how many attempts are made. Out of curiousity, what determines whether or not the spell will work?
I do not think you're a fool. Do I think you've chosen the wrong belief? Well, obviously. If I didn't, I'd be Wiccan myself, wouldn't I? :)
What I mean is this: according to Christianity, that sort of thing isn't really possible or likely. So, under that view, why should they be threatened by it? Why should it be seen as some kind of competitor? Why should it be seen as some incredible evil which must be stopped at all costs? Seems to me the truly Christian view to take is that it's probably not real, and that it's not worth freaking out over.
That isn't meant as condescending. You said yourself you used to be skeptical of it, so surely you can relate when I say I don't believe in it.
As for religious flaws: I think all religions have flaws in interpretation. I believe Christianity is perfect...but our perception and therefore execution of it is not.
I don't believe you're a moron at all. I disagree with lots of people I consider to be very intelligent.
Originally posted by Naisy
No Toose dont worry about it, besides you had nothing to do with Chris's comments, i am more than happy to anwser any questions on the religion i just got a little agro after reading this
Christians often make the mistake of taking it seriously...as if it's trying to steal people from them. Frankly, they ought to regard it as inconsequential. Jerry Falwell and other like-minded "Christian leaders" (don't let their own claims to hold that position fool you) need to ignore such things. Instead, they play them up as some major obstacle to Christianity.
I kind of took it personaly which i apologize for Chris, i am all up for a great debate as long as he arguments dont go to a personal level so that was my mistake and will reply to your other comments after finishing speaking to toose:
Toose, matt whatever you like to be called :D what is you would like me to explain, by all means ask and i will be happy to entertain your curiousity :yup: Thank you for saying you have respect for my religion that was kind of you. So ask your questions and i will anwser as best as i can.
Now Chris, do you ask for forgiveness after each time you sin? EVERY TIME? you see you apologize after you sin, we apologize when we sin against nature, you arent required of that since in the bible animals were made to serve humans.
Also you say that you doubt magic could exsist in a person, well think of it in this way, God didnt create us with bits of string or some limbs he had lying around, God said let there be light and so there was light isnt that a form of magic? also is it than not possible that a part of the magic used in our creation isnt still dormat within us?
:laugh: out of curiousity or out of needing more debates, the spell can work and not work on the casters intensions, the day in which it is cast, the emotions in the way and other such things.
well any other points i have left out? i shouldnt think so but i know you will point them out if i did. Sorry if i started to go off the rails yeaterday, alot of pressure with exams and life. At least i didnt lose it completly otherwise i would have without a doubt been banned from this site for good.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Naisy
sorry its taken so long to reply, my modem has blown up and i can only reply at school. Man this is quite a long discussion! Just so you know Chris, no matter whats said here about our religions no hard feelings :D
it does conflict with Christianity which is what every other religion will do anyway, thats what makes each religion seperate from the rest.
Of course there is more, some of it is hard to explain, i just felt it in my heart that, this was my path and i KNEW it was my way, my path. Promoting good will, is just a bonus.
A very wise call Chris, fair enough judgement, i dont believe they are dangerous, but that is something you cannot decide on.
if that is what our religion calls us we are hardly going to call ourselves something other. I mean if Christians were getting bashed, would you refuse to call yourself christian, if you believe in what you believe in so much, chances are you wouldnt, someone once said, i might not like what you believe, but i will fight to the death for your right to believe it.
Do you actually believe that we would call ourselves witches to get ourselves bashed? If you go back in time and review history, witchcraft was originally about nature, after times had changed so did the definition, what word would you suggest we change to Chris?
thats true, but i believe in it strong enough to not care what i get called, just if actual harm is coming my way, i dont want to fight all the time, i just want people to understand, im still Mick Naismith, im still the caring person people think i am, just because i am a witch doesnt mean im evil, its ok to respond, i would just like people to take the time to understand our religion than respond, before branding us ALL evil.
Originally posted by Yoda
Likewise...even if it is less fun this way. :laugh:
Hmm, well, you were saying different earlier:
Wicca is a craft more than a religion, it is possible to be christian AND wiccan.
Well, I hate to force the issue, but I think there must be a primary reason for your choosing it, and I'm rather curious as to what it is. I'm not going to nag, but I think it matters.
Don't take this the wrong way, but most of the Wiccans I've met and spoken with were very obviously interested in it for the attention it brings and little else. I don't know you well enough to say whether or not it is the same in your case, but I find it to usually be an extension of the "Goth" lifestyle, and therefore, an attention-getter for teens not quite satisfied with their social position, for one reason or another.
You're right...what I mean is, if there's no actual Witchcraft going on, why call yourself a Witch?
It depends. I suppose if you're actually practicing Witchcraft, then yes, the name makes sense. What I'd like to know is who chose the name "Wicca" in the first place. It means, roughly, "magic worker."
Well, a person may not be evil...but they can still do evil things.
Anyway, I have to ask: what do you do that makes you a Witch?
Yup. I'd like to reiterate just how disappointed I am that Holden bowed out so quickly. I can't say I'm surprised...I figured that, if he posted here at ALL, he sure as hell wouldn't stick around to defend his statements. Expected or not, though, it's still a shame.
Originally posted by Naisy
well i wouldnt have guessed it, around here people hear Wiccan and they want to burn you literally it would be ok if they knew what they were talking about but they hear witch without understanding what it is, thank you all for being kind about it and not threatening me. I do not preach that you should all be wiccans but if it is something you are interested in knowing more about please just email me OR PM me, i will be happy to help in letting you understand more.
Originally posted by Yoda
I can't really say. I will say this, though: while the thought of simply going on without striving to break new grounds in Truth may seem unthinkable to us, it might be highly appealing and reasonable in the life after this one. However, all we know is a world without limits on such things.
Where do you believe your "powers" come from?
Originally posted by Naisy
i dont know if thats a proper question or a laugh at me, but as its Chris i think its a question that i will anwser it all the same. The power comes from within and from nature, to be honest im not Wiccan for the magic side of things but for the rules it implies for eg "harm none and do what ye will" and the three fold law, which is where if you do something good it comes back to you three times and the same applies if you do evil. Magic comes from God or what we call "the lady" we cant make fireballs form in our hands or that sort of fantasy stuff, but we can create good luck. We must only use magic to bring OURSELVES needs or enhance the lives of the ones we love. Wicca is far from evil IMO.
Originally posted by Yoda
It might be evil. Isn't it a possibility these powers come from a place other than the one you think? After all, if Satan does exist, don't you think it'd make perfect sense for him to ensnare people with that sort of thing? I would if I were him. :yup:
Anyway, "harm none and do what ye will" isn't a far cry from some of the basics of Christianity. I think the difference is that Christianty knows that you WILL harm others eventually with self-destructive behavior, and that "harm none" encompasses all people...including yourself.
Originally posted by Naisy
i have often thought that it might be evil which is why i would rarely consider messing with magic, im wiccan for the values of helping fellow man and even SB would agree that i do care alot about everyone else. Look Chris you mistake the religion, no offence is meant by this but i do believe your a little closed minded. I try to harm none but as with Christianity people will make mistakes and people do break the rules, its life. Wicca is a craft more than a religion, it is possible to be christian AND wiccan.
If Satan is behind this and he is to capture my soul for doing as much good in the world as i can before i go, than thats the price i will pay to help others.
If you go to this site, i hope it will help you understand, i am not using magic for any sort OR form of evil but to help those i care about:
Wicca Information (http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/wicca.htm)
ps i am not telling you that you are wrong because i truely dont know the anwsers but i do still have faith in my religion as you will probably have faith in yours
pps i too believe in Satan, if there can be a surpream good (god or the lady) than there can probably be a surpream evil. I truely do not know the anwsers which is the good part of religion, no one KNOWS we just have FAITH and BELIEVE.:yup:
Originally posted by Yoda
Christianity is based around, among other things, helping your fellow man. So why Wiccan?
People will make mistakes and break rules no matter what they believe. And no, I don't think it is possible to be Christian and Wiccan. Partially because of this:
Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me
Some mysterious life force that gives you powers ("The Lady" I think you called it) is indeed another God.
Um, I'm a Christian and I strive to do good as well. Why does someone need to be Wiccan as opposed to Christian to do that?
Surely...and I'm not going to belittle you for these beliefs. What I am wondering, though, is what you get out of Wicca that you think is lacking in Christianity. You make it sound like Christianity does NOT encourage the good things you're speaking of...but it most definitely does.
EDIT: Thanks for the link...it sounds rather ridiculous, though. It's got one funky definition of Witchcraft...it's not really consistent with the dictionary definition.
Originally posted by Naisy
well chris, i guess another question i could ask is why not? my faith is in my beliefs and ONE of my beliefs is in wicca, its as like asking why Christian? it is just what your heart believes and the path you choose to follow. Wicca is just part of my life.
Chris, i personally do not talk to "the lady", i talk to God, correction i pray to god. I do think it is possible to have a mix, but i do not stress the point because i know there are many others who disagree and there are those that will agree.
No im not saying that you have to be wiccan to help someone, im sorry you got the wrong idea, but as i stress many times i do have my faith in wicca, just as you have yours in christianity.
Chris i never said Christianity is lacking anything it just isnt the total belief system for me, i still believe in God, i still share many beliefs that Christians do, but Wicca is my path that i have choosen
No Chris i REALLY didnt mean it to sound like that, but there have been friends of mine who are wiccan, who have been bashed and threatened (by Christians who i believe misunderstand us) to be burned just for being "a witch", which i believe is not something God would approve of.
There are many forms of witchcraft Chris, ours is just as we interpret it.
Originally posted by Yoda
Why not? Well, personally, I don't believe something under that sort of assumption. I think the burden of proof lies with the belief...not against it. IE: it doesn't make sense to believe in something just because there's no really good reason not to, but rather, because there's a good reason to.
Well, doesn't the Wiccan religion follow more than one Godlike figure? All I'm trying to say is that it appears to me that this religion does indeed conflict with Christianity.
I see what you're saying, but in my opinion, we should all have good reasons for believing what we believe. When asked why you believe in what you believe, you say things a bit like "because it promotes good will between people" -- but the fact of the matter is that many other religions do that. So what is it about Wicca that attracts you to it rather than other religions? There must be something it has that the others do not that attracted you to it.
I'm not sure what God would approve of...probably not that, but then again, I don't know your friends, maybe some of them are genuinely dangerous people. I can't say with the limited knowledge I have here.
I will say this, though: when you refer to yourself as a "witch," you're just asking for trouble.
Well, the fact remains that words have actual definitions...and rather than take a word and stretch it's definition, why not use a different word? It feels very much like the word "witchcraft" is being used for shock value in some way. If the religion defines "witchcraft" as "appreciating the things around you" (or something of the sort, I can't quote it off the top of my head), then why call it "witchcraft" at all?
Let's be blunt: virtually no one is so naive as to use the word "witchcraft" and NOT expect to get a certain kind of response.
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.