Death Penalty: Yea or Nay

[Sir Toose]

Might as well since it's infecting other threads.

They caught the sniper(s), whom I'm certain you're all familiar with. Death? Life in prison?

I say they should die. I can't wait to hear from the liberal faction on this.

I hear every day how the masses of America are poor, can't buy food, can't support their children (often used to support their abortion argument), can't work, and on and on. It's surprising to me that most of these people are against the death penalty. They would choose to house a criminal (at the taxpayers expense) versus using that money for better purposes (such as education for the poor, etc)

A Mr. J.D. Scott was executed recently in Ohio. The expenses were documented as follows:

Overtime Payroll for Execution Team: $6,227
Phone Installations: $7,290
Drugs: $122
IV Supplies: $67
Maintenance: $3,093

All this adds up to $16,799 to the taxpayer.

The cost of housing a prisoner ranges from 16,000 to 35,000 per year, depending upon the facility.

That's $320,000 to $700,000 over a twenty year period.

---------- The Rant ----------

Life in prison, by it's very own definition, says that a prisoner will never again see the light of day. What possible good does this do? I know this stance seems cold to some, but I'm sick of people who have no regard for human life being given higher regard than people who deserve it.

Take that money and feed a family who has no food for god's sake. That money could support a family while they learned to support themselves at something.

Take that money and give a good kid an education. There's lines of them out there who can't afford school but who sure could better our society if given a chance.

Use the money to promote small business, jobs, bolster the economy... help the good and law abiding versus guarding the life of someone who has demonstrated a total lack of respect for life and liberty.

The focus is in the wrong place. 180 degrees, dead wrong. I watched Ed Gein last night. He's just an example of the twisted whack-o's that are out there. The country supported him for 30+ years at say an average of $8K per year (allowing for lower costs of the times) for something like $240,000. A quarter of a million dollars spent on a man who took the lives and livelihoods of many and who had no hope of ever contributing back.

I worked 3 jobs and put myself through college. I mopped floors, I carried shingles in 100 degree weather, I flipped burgers, unloaded trucks, you name it. I was told that there wasn't money to help me get through school because I wasn't black enough, asian enough, poor enough, female enough, whatever. I thought of things like Mr. Gein being supported by the tax money taken from my own personal sweat and it made me want to puke. Here I was busting my @ss to get to through school and the government is shaving 18-20% off the top with some of that money going to provide for prisoners who are sitting on their @sses in a nice air conditioned room.... with no worries about their next meal etc. I lived on several occasions with not enough money to pay for shelter, let alone food.

Sorry, didn't mean to make this my soapbox. I just wanted you to know where I'm coming from before you make any stupid comments (not that you will).

There are worthwhile governmental programs out there. Keeping scumbags alive is not one of them.

[Piddzilla]

Originally posted by Toose
I can't wait to hear from the liberal faction on this.

Let me know when you want to hear from the socialist side and I'll be happy to tell you.

By the way, quite interesting to see that you have a serial killer as your personal image....

[Sir Toose]

I have an Actor as my avatar since this is a movie forum... I think Sir Hopkins did a fine job in the movie.

I mentioned Ed Gein in my post because he was real.

So... tell me the socialist side. I'm an old dog but I'm always open to checking out new tricks.

[OG-]

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. In the end both parties are left eyeless. But lets say you're the reason 10 peoples eyes will never open again and it comes time to punish you for causing that, there are only two eyes to poke out....Yes it seems barbaric. Yes it seems unnecesarry. Yes it is a pretty black and white debate. But I say yay, and I'm a liberal.

[Yoda]

Originally posted by OG-
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. In the end both parties are left eyeless.
Actually it leaves both parties with one eye. Like this guy --> ;)

You all know where I stand on this issue. I won't bother elaborating about it just now.

[Gracie]

It all depends on the crime. In the Sniper/s's case, I think he/she/they should die. How horrible can you get, killing people while they're pumping they're gas!!!!! :mad:

I have an Actor as my avatar since this is a movie forum... I think Sir Hopkins did a fine job in the movie.

So what if he has a Avatar of an actor who happens to play a serial killer. Are you going to yell at someone who has Arnold Schwarzeneggar as their avatar? He's killed plenty of people in movies, and I don't see you complaining!! If you want to hunt Movie Fans, remember that we travel in packs, just so you know! :p :D

[Sir Toose]

Thank you Grace.

Piddzilla and I come from different worlds. I say dark he says light, and vice versa. He's a bit prone to anger and it's fun to prod him a little. Oops...I'm admitting it (watch him get mad now :D ).


Did I ever tell you I wanted to name my daughter Grace? I think it's the classiest name out there, just in case you wanted my opinion.

[Gracie]

Stevie Wonder: Ebony and ivory,
living together in harmony.

Frank Sinatra: I am dark, you are light,
Life's an Eskimoe pie, lets take a bite!

Both: Ohh, let's not fiiiiiiight!

I got that off of Saturday Night Live.

Did I ever tell you I wanted to name my daughter Grace? I think it's the classiest name out there, just in case you wanted my opinion.

Actually, I was half the reason I was named Grace because My Great-Grandma was named Grace, and the other half was because my Dad named my other sisters so it goes like this, oldest to youngest: Grace, Hope, and Mercy. My Dad likes Christian-related names. He named Charlie after Charles The Great, and we name Jack after CS Lewis. (People called CS "Jack"!)

Anyway, thank you! people are always saying stuff like that, and I have a feeling I blush easily! :blush:

[LordSlaytan]

Yay.

[Caitlyn]

I support the death penalty as long as they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person in question took the life of another human with malicious intent… I personally also think that child molestation should carry the death penalty instead of just a few years in jail only to be turned back out into a society full of vulnerable children…

[firegod]

I oppose the dealth penalty for three main reasons.

1.) It is barbaric and promotes barbarity. Sure, let's murder people to show how murder is wrong. Great idea. I have a couple more ideas: let's chop off the hands of shoplifters; let's cut out the tongues of those who lie. The death penalty is a barbaric and hypocritical remnant of medievil times. The United States is one of the very few industrialized countries still executing some of their citizens, and I believe the world is moving in the right direction and that America will one day stop this uncivilized behavior.

2.) The death penalty has been shown over and over to not be more of a deterrence than life in prison. Other than revenge and maybe preventing the possibility of a violent inmate hurting other inmates or breaking out of prison, deterrence seems to be the only good reason to have a death penalty. So, if it doesn't deter, why the hell have it? Revenge is a crappy justification for a cold-blooded killing of a human being, and the other reason isn't convincing in the slightest either.

3.) I don't trust our judicial system nearly enough. If an innocent person is sent to prison for life, his or her case could be successfully appealed and he or she would be freed. When one is executed, there is no appeal. The injustice is permanent, with no possibility of the innocent person ever going free. There have been at least dozens of people sentenced to death in this country alone who later were conclusively found to be innocent. How many times have such sentences occured and the truth about the defendant's innocence was never revealed? One problem is that the vast majority of those accused of capital crime are extremely poor and cannot get good legal representation. Until we prove ourselves to be significantly more competent at judging the guilt or innocence of people accused of capital crime, the desire to have our government not kill innocent people will always be a very good reason to not have the death penalty.

[Sir Toose]

Originally posted by Caitlyn
I personally also think that child molestation should carry the death penalty instead of just a few years in jail only to be turned back out into a society full of vulnerable children…
just for grins some time, check out your state's Department of Public Safety page. I stumbled on a section of my state's site that lists child molestors by address. I was shocked to see that I have a two time, under house arrest loser not 20 houses away from me. Also, within a circle of five miles I have 8 of them. I can't, in good conscience, let my kids out of my sight. I couldn't agree with you more.

Originally posted by firegod
I oppose the dealth penalty for three main reasons.

1.) It is barbaric and promotes barbarity. Sure, let's murder people to show how murder is wrong. Great idea. I have a couple more ideas: let's chop off the hands of shoplifters; let's cut out the tongues of those who lie. The death penalty is a barbaric and hypocritical remnant of medievil times. The United States is one of the very few industrialized countries still executing some of their citizens, and I believe the world is moving in the right direction and that America will one day stop this uncivilized behavior.
I hear your point, Fire, I just don't agree with it. It is barbaric, but I feel it's necessary for all the reasons stated above and then some I didn't even get into. It's not pleasant, you're most definitely correct. When i look at a case though my sympathies always swing to the victim and the victim's families. The families of people who were executed for committing the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or they could be guilty of garnering the affections of some psychopath. I DO see your point, and I wish I could feel confident in the whole idea of retribution/restitution = 1 healed and productive person but the stats don't lie.

Originally posted by firegod
2.) The death penalty has been shown over and over to not be more of a deterrence than life in prison. Other than revenge and maybe preventing the possibility of a violent inmate hurting other inmates or breaking out of prison, deterrence seems to be the only good reason to have a death penalty. So, if it doesn't deter, why the hell have it? Revenge is a crappy justification for a cold-blooded killing of a human being, and the other reason isn't convincing in the slightest either.
Well... life in prison doesn't mean "Life" in prison. I will do the research if necessary to illustrate to you the recividism rates of convicts who spend a long time in prison, are released, and come back for committing the same crime. Dead men don't kill people. That's a damn strong deterrent in my book. Again, your focus on "cold blooded killing" is on the perpetrator of a crime who is himself cold blooded. Let's say your man here kills the father of 3 who is the sole source of income for his family. What happens to those three kids if the mother is incapable of providing for them on her own? Foster care? Heard the stats on abuse in that situation? That's where my focus is. I could give a rainbow colored sh*t for the rights of the man that killed their father. I say instead of wasting a million bucks keeping the dirtbag alive we ought to give the million bucks to the wife and children of that murdered father to restore the support taken "in cold blood" from them.

Originally posted by firegod
3.) I don't trust our judicial system nearly enough. If an innocent person is sent to prison for life, his or her case could be successfully appealed and he or she would be freed. When one is executed, there is no appeal. The injustice is permanent, with no possibility of the innocent person ever going free. There have been at least dozens of people sentenced to death in this country alone who later were conclusively found to be innocent. How many times have such sentences occured and the truth about the defendant's innocence was never revealed? One problem is that the vast majority of those accused of capital crime are extremely poor and cannot get good legal representation. Until we prove ourselves to be significantly more competent at judging the guilt or innocence of people accused of capital crime, the desire to have our government not kill innocent people will always be a very good reason to not have the death penalty.

By and large the judicial system works. It is geared to protect the innocent but I will admit that in the past it has failed. As with any system it will occasionally fail, I cannot argue that. However, if you put the times it's been successful against the times it's failed I think the performance rates are very good. I can't find who said it originally but that old adage "where there's smoke, there's fire" usually holds true.

The last case of mistaken imprisonment I've heard of was Clarence Lee Brandly (SP?) the school janitor who was convicted for the murder of a child in Texas. He was released in the early 90's after he was proven innocent by dna-blood evidence. I think this illustrates that the system and those involved are getting better at their jobs. They are consistently improving scientific methods to convict the guilty and protect the innocent. With the inception of DNA and blood evidence I believe comes the lesser liklihood of the innocent being accused. DNA evidential procedures are used in now the greatest number of cases... in fact all cases that would lead to a death/life in prison scenario. As these methods continue to improve I think the number of innocent people sent to prison/death will fade and die out. Contrary to popular belief, no one is chomping at the bit to deal out death (except the gulity charged). Look how long these people sit in prison while every possible avenue (and loop hole in some cases) is explored.

My mantra is and will always be support the victims, punish the guilty.

[firegod]

I might comment more later, but this one will be pretty brief. I think most of what you say is very understandable; however, I think you have a very flawed view of how successful our system is. Innocent people are convicted all the time. I don't think most people realize how easy it is to convict an innocent person, especially if you are going against a poor defendant.

[Sir Toose]

I can see that on a robbery case or on less serious things that involve no blood evidence. In the case of someone being sentenced to death... they let people go if they're not absolutely, positively sure. OJ Simpson walks free not because we don't know he's guilty but because of the restraint of ordinary people when dealing out the death sentence.

[Steve]

They've caught the snipers. One of them is 17 years old. I ask everyone in this debate, should he be executed?

(According to The Death Penalty Information Center, the United States joins the following countries in the sentencing of minors as adults: Iran, Pakistan, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and the Democratic Republic of Congo.)

Just food for thought...

Concerning child molestation: lock the offenders up for the rest of their lives. That's all there is to it.

[Yoda]

Toose makes a good point; it being "barbaric" does not make it a bad idea. Many wars were barbaric...but some of them were necessary. Sometimes brute force is called for.

As for innocent people; that's not an argument against the death penalty so much as an argument for higher standards for the death penalty. I'd gladly advocate death for only those with, say, DNA evidence of some sort. The rest? I'll take Bill O'Reilly's road on this one, amazingly, and say that they should all be sent away; partial banishment with hard labor for the rest of their friggin' lives. Let them give back to the rest of us in some way.

And as for deterrance; there are conflicting reports, but regardless of whether or not it deters would-be convicts, it sure as heck deters actual convicts. I'd also like to say that I think there's a difference between revenge and justice.

[firegod]

Originally posted by Toose
I can see that on a robbery case or on less serious things that involve no blood evidence. In the case of someone being sentenced to death... they let people go if they're not absolutely, positively sure.
No way. I don't buy that for one second. I believe it is easier for poor people to get railroaded on the heavier charges like murder, because the preasure the prosecution receives is damn good motivation to try real hard, while the quality of the court appointed defense attorneys doesn't get much better just because it is a murder case or whatever. Just as an example, Gary Graham was obviously innocent and got executed anyways because he had an incredibly horrible lawyer.

OJ Simpson walks free not because we don't know he's guilty but because of the restraint of ordinary people when dealing out the death sentence.

Simpson walked free because he was able to afford fanfrigintastic defense attorneys, because he was famous and because the police screwed up handling a lot of the evidence. If Simpson had not been rich and famous, he wouldn't have had a prayer. He wouldn't have had even decent lawyers, let alone a huge team of fantastic ones, which means he wouldn't have had a mostly black jury, a fair judge, discredited police officers like Fuhrman, etc., etc., etc.

[firegod]

Originally posted by Yoda
Toose makes a good point; it being "barbaric" does not make it a bad idea. Many wars were barbaric...but some of them were necessary. Sometimes brute force is called for.

As for innocent people; that's not an argument against the death penalty so much as an argument for higher standards for the death penalty. I'd gladly advocate death for only those with, say, DNA evidence of some sort. The rest? I'll take Bill O'Reilly's road on this one, amazingly, and say that they should all be sent away; partial banishment with hard labor for the rest of their friggin' lives. Let them give back to the rest of us in some way.

And as for deterrance; there are conflicting reports, but regardless of whether or not it deters would-be convicts, it sure as heck deters actual convicts. I'd also like to say that I think there's a difference between revenge and justice.
Good points. I can't condone the death penalty no matter how sure we are that the defendants are guilty, but your suggestion certainly would be an improvement in my opinion.

[Piddzilla]

To Firegod and Steve... Well spoken both of you and I'm with you. Death Penalty does not belong in a modern civilised country of the 21st century. I won't go into here why I'm opposing the death penalty - I've allready done that on the "Abortion Why?" topic and Firegod pretty much said it in his post.

Toose, seems to think that the misfortunes in his life depends on - not the lack of death penalty - but that the death penalty isn't executed often enough and/or quick enough. The money issue seems to be the biggest argument for death penalty, because it would save the state a lot of money.

Money, can never be the deciding issue in this matter. It's absurd to deal with people's lives as a matter of economy.

I also sense a deep bitterness against "the other" in Toose. He wasn't black enough or asian enough or female enough. In my wildest imagination I can't see what that has to do with the death penalty. It sounds more to me like oldfashioned fear and hostility against "different people".

Toose also mentioned that he's upset because of the 18-20% income tax of his salary a large amount goes to the comfort of prisoners in for life and that money would solve a lot of problems of poor people if they were distributed on them instead. This would, if I understand Toose correctly, be possible if the hard-timers in jail were exectued instead of jailed for life.

I promise you, Toose, that the problems doesn't lie in the death penalty's being or not being. Just to illustrate my point: In Sweden, where I live, we pay about 30% in income tax. That's a lot. In fact, we have among the top highest income taxes in the world. But we have hihger minimum wages too of course. But here all schools including colleges and univerities are free. No fees. That goes for even the most respected universities with the longest tradition too (Our equivalents to Harvard etc.).

You are what the dominating classes in America want you to be. While Bush ok's a $350 000 000 000 warfare budget people like you blame the unjusties in society on "the freaks", those who are not "like us". I guarantee you that those problems, the misery of the working classes, will not go away even if you tripled the number of criminals actually being exectued, not only sentanced to death.

Furthermore, I don't think hate and revenge belong in a legal system. If we want a humane society we can't allow executions, illegal nor legal. Toose seems to think that if a father of three is being killed and the family's only source of income is taken away from them, their pain and agony and misery motivate the death penalty. If a lonely suicidal man without any friends or family is being killed and noone is missing him and maybe he even welcomed death - does that mean that we don't have to kill the murderer? Even if he chopped off his head and tapdanced on the dead body before urinating on it? An eye for an eye? Whose eye??

[Sir Toose]

Listen, P-Zilla, I have absolutely nothing against you... you're entitled to your opinion. You don't know me at all and you certainly can't psycho-analyze the reasons why I have the opinions that I have based on the limited "sense" that you get of me here. I don't know why you can't argue without personalizing against someone who disagrees with you. Now...moving onward

Toose, seems to think that the misfortunes in his life depends on - not the lack of death penalty - but that the death penalty isn't executed often enough and/or quick enough. The money issue seems to be the biggest argument for death penalty, because it would save the state a lot of money.

Money, can never be the deciding issue in this matter. It's absurd to deal with people's lives as a matter of economy.

Okay... I'm busting out the hypocrisy whistle. Toot-Toot! Now ABORTION is okay because for someone to have an unwanted child would be draining on the economy. Huh? To kill one way is justifiable in the sense of monetary issues but not the other... the one you don't believe in? Read your last sentence up there and think about it in terms of abortion and your arguments thereof.

I also sense a deep bitterness against "the other" in Toose. He wasn't black enough or asian enough or female enough. In my wildest imagination I can't see what that has to do with the death penalty. It sounds more to me like oldfashioned fear and hostility against "different people".
NOW I'm laughing! I'm honestly giggling. How in the hell can you come off with acusatory sh*t like this and you have no idea who I am? Let me clue you in there skipper... I had a black girlfriend for a few years, I married a middle eastern woman, I give to charities A LOT like the united negro college fund, paralyzed vets, etc. I work every year on Habitat for Humanity (homes for the poor) to name some of it. I used that argument NOT to illustrate my own plight but to illustrate that keeping killers alive is much less important than helping a poor kid (not me) get an education. Poor kids that I personally help, BTW. I never said I was sorry or upset about having to work hard, in fact, it's forged me into the self reliant and tenacious bastard that I am today. I hope you can see why I used the example of my own life here, I mean hey, my life is what I know best.

Toose also mentioned that he's upset because of the 18-20% income tax of his salary a large amount goes to the comfort of prisoners in for life and that money would solve a lot of problems of poor people if they were distributed on them instead. This would, if I understand Toose correctly, be possible if the hard-timers in jail were exectued instead of jailed for life.

I never said large amount. I said "some portion." And yeah, I'd ascribe to that... provided some corrupt governmental fat cat didn't skim off the top of it. Why focus on giving chances to people who don't deserve it while forsaking those who do? Flies in the face of logic to me.

I promise you, Toose, that the problems doesn't lie in the death penalty's being or not being. Just to illustrate my point: In Sweden, where I live, we pay about 30% in income tax. That's a lot. In fact, we have among the top highest income taxes in the world. But we have hihger minimum wages too of course. But here all schools including colleges and univerities are free. No fees. That goes for even the most respected universities with the longest tradition too (Our equivalents to Harvard etc.).
NOTHING in this world is free my friend. You said yourself you fork over 30% then try to offset it with higher wages that are taxed in higher amounts. I'd like to go into this with you... about your freedoms of choice versus mine, but not here, it'd be too far off topic. Now, how does this relate? Are you saying your crime rates are lower or murder rates are lower because you're a socialist country? Elaborate please.

You are what the dominating classes in America want you to be. While Bush ok's a $350 000 000 000 warfare budget people like you blame the unjusties in society on "the freaks", those who are not "like us". I guarantee you that those problems, the misery of the working classes, will not go away even if you tripled the number of criminals actually being exectued, not only sentanced to death.
I AM exactly what I want to be and what I choose to be by the grace of God and the free market system. You don't know people like me. We take personal responsibility for our lives and for our actions and we don't hold our poor little hands out for governmental supplication to our personal incomes. You see I am indefinable by you... how can you categorize me? I make an income that sets me at the upper fringes of the middle class yet I worked most of my life in the working class. I took a look around me one day and I didn't like what I saw. I busted my @ss to get away and here I am now a lot of sweat and heartache later but EXACTLY where I want to be. I own it, I did it myself. My path is not for all.... my path was rough and I didn't have a lot of opportunity handed to me. If I had have had that I could be even further now. My focus on economic issues as related to the death penalty is cold to you. To me it makes sense. I can't support spending a million dollars on a convicted killer when there's hundreds of kids who can't afford to better themselves or don't know how. Give them a shot.

Furthermore, I don't think hate and revenge belong in a legal system. If we want a humane society we can't allow executions, illegal nor legal. Toose seems to think that if a father of three is being killed and the family's only source of income is taken away from them, their pain and agony and misery motivate the death penalty. If a lonely suicidal man without any friends or family is being killed and noone is missing him and maybe he even welcomed death - does that mean that we don't have to kill the murderer? Even if he chopped off his head and tapdanced on the dead body before urinating on it? An eye for an eye? Whose eye??

Again, if you knew me you'd know I'm nothing about hate. I'm too tired of explaining myself to go into it anymore. YOU are laying down judgement on me here, friend, because of my beliefs. I'm explaining to you why I believe what I believe and I don't believe I ever was rude or derogatory as you have been. Who has the hate? Now about your last few sentences... think about it, please. Yes the killer of the father in that scenario has forfieted his right to live in my book. I DO believe that the money that will be spent on keeping the dirtbag alive should instead be given to the family of the slain. We have no shortage of families of slain people here. In the latter scenario we could help one of those whose killer was never caught but their family is in trouble because of it.

Two things:
1). I understand your arguments. I find them to be idealistic. Not within every murderer beats a heart of gold that can be saved.

2). I know you don't want to hear about money. The fact is at the end of the day we need it to live. It's the reality of the situation...far below the heady philosophical discussions that we are having. it's about who deserves to survive and who doesn't ... it's about exactly where the rubber hits the road.

[Caitlyn]

Originally posted by Toose

just for grins some time, check out your state's Department of Public Safety page. I stumbled on a section of my state's site that lists child molestors by address. I was shocked to see that I have a two time, under house arrest loser not 20 houses away from me. Also, within a circle of five miles I have 8 of them. I can't, in good conscience, let my kids out of my sight. I couldn't agree with you more.

Good for you… so many parents don't even take the time to look.... I don’t have any children yet but I check the lists regularly and if one moves anywhere close to me, the people who do have children around me are going to know about it just as soon as I can get in touch with them…



Originally posted by Steve

They've caught the snipers. One of them is 17 years old. I ask everyone in this debate, should he be executed?

Before I could make any decision on that I would have to know what part the 17 year old actually played in all of this and why… but… I will say when I was 17 years old, I knew the difference between right and wrong and that I could not just randomly shoot people just because I wanted to…



Just food for thought...

Concerning child molestation: lock the offenders up for the rest of their lives. That's all there is to it.


That would be a better alternative than what they do now but I still learn toward the death penalty… anytime a grown person molests a child, there is a possibility that child could die from the act so why is child molestation not considered attempted murder?


Now, out of pure curiosity, I have a question… has anyone in this debate ever had a family member or friend who was murdered?

[Mary Loquacious]

I have never, thank God, had to deal with the murder of a relative or a close friend. But I have to wonder what my stance on the death penalty would be if I had. I'd like to think it would be the same.

My stance, much like my stance on abortion, is split. Half of me says, "You don't lock up a rabid dog--you kill it before it hurts someone." The other half of me says, "How can we put our faith in a justice system that's shown itself to be flawed time and time again?"

Yeah, it's boring, but there you have it.

An interesting sidenote:

I don't allow certain topics for argumentative papers in my classes anymore. I've read more poorly-worded student arguments on abortion, capital punishment, and the legalization of marijuana (by far the most popular topic among most of my students... imagine that) than I want to. However, one of my last capital punishment papers took the absurdity cake.

My student spent much of the paper talking about how countries like Singapore have severe punishment systems and also have relatively low crime rates. This isn't a bad point to make; however, he ended his paper by addressing the aforementioned-in-this-thread "barbaric" issue.

This is a rough quote:

"I think that if we held executions in arenas and stadiums and sold tickets for the events, that it would be a deterrent for criminals. Going back to things like drawing and quartering. Some might say this is barbaric and primitive, but it doesn't have to be. We could use monster trucks instead of horses."

[Piddzilla]

Originally posted by Toose
Listen, P-Zilla, I have absolutely nothing against you... you're entitled to your opinion. You don't know me at all and you certainly can't psycho-analyze the reasons why I have the opinions that I have based on the limited "sense" that you get of me here. I don't know why you can't argue without personalizing against someone who disagrees with you. Now...moving onward

Well... I don't understand why you use your own life as example to support your arguments if you don't want anybody to say anything about it. No, I don't know you, but I know about your opinions and that's what I based my arguments on.

Okay... I'm busting out the hypocrisy whistle. Toot-Toot! Now ABORTION is okay because for someone to have an unwanted child would be draining on the economy. Huh? To kill one way is justifiable in the sense of monetary issues but not the other... the one you don't believe in? Read your last sentence up there and think about it in terms of abortion and your arguments thereof.

Toot-toot up your ass! When did I say that abortion was a good thing to do in order to save money?? Please show me a quote on that one! And even if I did - so what if a woman decides to abort a fetus because she just can't afford to support a child. That's her own business and not something concerning the country's ecomomy. I don't give a damn about how my neighbour handles her or his economy, but I DO care about how my government handles the economy of the state. And the day that they start killing people to save money, which will never happen here (not even the most conservative swedish party supports death penalty), I'm moving to Norway or something.

Why did you start this new topic if you're going to continue to debate on abortion?

NOW I'm laughing! I'm honestly giggling. How in the hell can you come off with acusatory sh*t like this and you have no idea who I am? Let me clue you in there skipper... I had a black girlfriend for a few years, I married a middle eastern woman, I give to charities A LOT like the united negro college fund, paralyzed vets, etc. I work every year on Habitat for Humanity (homes for the poor) to name some of it. I used that argument NOT to illustrate my own plight but to illustrate that keeping killers alive is much less important than helping a poor kid (not me) get an education. Poor kids that I personally help, BTW. I never said I was sorry or upset about having to work hard, in fact, it's forged me into the self reliant and tenacious bastard that I am today. I hope you can see why I used the example of my own life here, I mean hey, my life is what I know best.

You know, I'm starting to know a lot about you now so.... Once again, I don't understand why you take offense when I'm critizising (spel.) your way of life when you constantly using your own life to make a point. What I would like to know, because I don't think that this (above) cleared that out to me, is what you meant by not being "black enough" and so on. Or anyway.... It's not the issue here so forget about it.

I never said large amount. I said "some portion." And yeah, I'd ascribe to that... provided some corrupt governmental fat cat didn't skim off the top of it. Why focus on giving chances to people who don't deserve it while forsaking those who do? Flies in the face of logic to me.

Should we even have prisons? They only cost money.


NOTHING in this world is free my friend. You said yourself you fork over 30% then try to offset it with higher wages that are taxed in higher amounts. I'd like to go into this with you... about your freedoms of choice versus mine, but not here, it'd be too far off topic.

Yeah sure, anytime! By the way, check this out: http://www.zone81.com/arch_news/1027555451431

Now, how does this relate? Are you saying your crime rates are lower or murder rates are lower because you're a socialist country? Elaborate please.

Well, I don't know all the reasons why our crime rates and murder rates are lower. Sure, one reason could be that we put a lot of belief in a system that takes care of the people. But other reasons could of course be that we don't have your liberal gun laws perhaps. I really don't feel like speculating on issues that I don't have the answer to. But, yes, I think USA could use some radical ideologies. You have a right wing party, and a far right wing party, but no real left wing party. Maybe that's why 51% of the people didn't even bother to vote in your last presidential election.

I AM exactly what I want to be and what I choose to be by the grace of God and the free market system. You don't know people like me. We take personal responsibility for our lives and for our actions and we don't hold our poor little hands out for governmental supplication to our personal incomes.

And I do, you say? By the way, about this "socialist country" or whatever... We have free market system here for heaven's sake. I guess socialism to you is the same as communism. The governing party here is the Social Democrats which are what you could call a socialist liberal party. I'm too tired to go into that further, but I assure you, we don't live on governmental supplication here either.

You see I am indefinable by you... how can you categorize me? I make an income that sets me at the upper fringes of the middle class yet I worked most of my life in the working class. I took a look around me one day and I didn't like what I saw. I busted my @ss to get away and here I am now a lot of sweat and heartache later but EXACTLY where I want to be. I own it, I did it myself. My path is not for all.... my path was rough and I didn't have a lot of opportunity handed to me. If I had have had that I could be even further now. My focus on economic issues as related to the death penalty is cold to you. To me it makes sense. I can't support spending a million dollars on a convicted killer when there's hundreds of kids who can't afford to better themselves or don't know how. Give them a shot.

Well, it's cold to me because in the end it will lead to a hyper-fittest-of-the-fittest thinking that I think is disgusting. Soon only the brightest kids will get "those money" because it's a waste on all the other dumb kids. Why spend money on that kid who's selling drugs? He will end up a crackhead anyway and probably be dead before he's 18 anyway. It's not the point, you'll say. It's a totally different topic, you'll say. You're reaching, you'll say. No, I'm not! It costs money to operate a democratic nation. The minute you start spending money only on "the good people" you're heading for the real destruction.

Again, if you knew me you'd know I'm nothing about hate. I'm too tired of explaining myself to go into it anymore. YOU are laying down judgement on me here, friend, because of my beliefs. I'm explaining to you why I believe what I believe and I don't believe I ever was rude or derogatory as you have been. Who has the hate?

Laying down judgement?? Listen, for a while I felt pretty lonely in here before other people who shared my views started posting. If you can't take any criticism - don't bother to post! Except for maybe that one time on the Abortion topic I don't know when I was rude towards you or anybody else. I'm free to speak my mind and you always say that you're on your soap box and so on and what are you doing up there?? Expressing your own personal views and opinions, right? Using you and your life (as you have done in this last post more than ever) as arguments for you opinions, and then when I'm criticizing you, I'm laying down judgement. I'm judging you from the information I get - from you. My judgement, however, may be right or wrong or both... And I don't have hate for you. I have fear. Fear because I think you represent a big part of your big country, the most powerful country in the world...

Now about your last few sentences... think about it, please. Yes the killer of the father in that scenario has forfieted his right to live in my book. I DO believe that the money that will be spent on keeping the dirtbag alive should instead be given to the family of the slain. We have no shortage of families of slain people here. In the latter scenario we could help one of those whose killer was never caught but their family is in trouble because of it.

Hmmm... I don't understand what you mean here, I have to admit. I don't think that responds to what I said about the "lonely murdered guy".

Two things:
1). I understand your arguments. I find them to be idealistic. Not within every murderer beats a heart of gold that can be saved.

That's not my point either. I just rather see them behind bars then watch their execution.

2). I know you don't want to hear about money. The fact is at the end of the day we need it to live. It's the reality of the situation...far below the heady philosophical discussions that we are having. it's about who deserves to survive and who doesn't ... it's about exactly where the rubber hits the road.

Look.. You don't think I pay the rent? Bills? Food? I know what makes the world go round. I gladly talk about money, but not when you weigh it against human lives.

Speaking of money, I'm surprised you didn't mention anything about the absurd warfare budget. What good does the money that you save on executed criminals do if you spend it all on the military?

[firegod]

I just would like to point out that the death penalty is a lot more expensive than life in prison without parole. Here is a good anti-death penalty page that backs up its assertions with a lot of facts and sources. There is absolutely no doubt that the death penalty costs tax payers more, and I've known that for years. I wish everyone else knew it.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs2.html

[Piddzilla]

Originally posted by firegod
I just would like to point out that the death penalty is a lot more expensive than life in prison without parole. Here is a good anti-death penalty page that backs up its assertions with a lot of facts and sources. There is absolutely no doubt that the death penalty costs tax payers more, and I've known that for years. I wish everyone else knew it.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs2.html

Interesting reading, Firegod.

[Sir Toose]

I don't have much time today so I have to be brief (I'm sure much to your relief :D )


Originally posted by Piddzilla

Well... I don't understand why you use your own life as example to support your arguments if you don't want anybody to say anything about it. No, I don't know you, but I know about your opinions and that's what I based my arguments on.

Say what you will, just don't assume too much. Have I made any assumptions about your life or who you are? No, I've only worked with your arguments. You say "I'm beginning to know you well" (see your response below) I'm saying you have no idea.



Toot-toot up your ass! When did I say that abortion was a good thing to do in order to save money?? Please show me a quote on that one! And even if I did - so what if a woman decides to abort a fetus because she just can't afford to support a child. That's her own business and not something concerning the country's ecomomy. I don't give a damn about how my neighbour handles her or his economy, but I DO care about how my government handles the economy of the state. And the day that they start killing people to save money, which will never happen here (not even the most conservative swedish party supports death penalty), I'm moving to Norway or something.

Why did you start this new topic if you're going to continue to debate on abortion?
You said that a good argument for abortion is the fact that the mother may not be financially secure enough to take care of a baby. I don't have time now to find your quote but I'll do it if you wish.

If you don't care how your neighbor handles things then why are you sticking your nose into my backyard? What do you care what happens here in the good ole U S of A?



You know, I'm starting to know a lot about you now so.... Once again, I don't understand why you take offense when I'm critizising (spel.) your way of life when you constantly using your own life to make a point. What I would like to know, because I don't think that this (above) cleared that out to me, is what you meant by not being "black enough" and so on. Or anyway.... It's not the issue here so forget about it.

See what I mean? You DON'T know me at all... why do you have to personalize the argument? I've made no assumptions about who you are, nor do I care to. I could make some educated guesses but it's not germain to the argument. My answer was in simple english. You said I have an old fashioned fear of 'the unknown' I illustrated to you that I do not. Maybe you're unfamiliar with how grants etc. work here for school. We have to pay for our scholl. Lots of people can't afford it. There are criteria in selecting who gets government money to go to school. It was my experience that even though my economic situation was as bad or worse than some of blacks, asians etc I was passed over for government money because my skin is white. I'm NOT making any assumptions. I was flat out told by a loan officer at my school that this was why. Again, I'm not crying or bitter about it. Just an example to illustrate my points. How come you never use personal examples? I use them to demonstrate firsthand experience in the issues that I bring up.


Should we even have prisons? They only cost money.
For minor offenders, yes.


Yeah sure, anytime! By the way, check this out: http://www.zone81.com/arch_news/1027555451431
Will do, thanks



Well, I don't know all the reasons why our crime rates and murder rates are lower. Sure, one reason could be that we put a lot of belief in a system that takes care of the people. But other reasons could of course be that we don't have your liberal gun laws perhaps. I really don't feel like speculating on issues that I don't have the answer to. But, yes, I think USA could use some radical ideologies. You have a right wing party, and a far right wing party, but no real left wing party. Maybe that's why 51% of the people didn't even bother to vote in your last presidential election.


WTF? Our liberals have a very strong voice. No time for guns now, but I support gun ownership (No surprise to you I'd bet) :)


And I do, you say? By the way, about this "socialist country" or whatever... We have free market system here for heaven's sake. I guess socialism to you is the same as communism. The governing party here is the Social Democrats which are what you could call a socialist liberal party. I'm too tired to go into that further, but I assure you, we don't live on governmental supplication here either.



Well, it's cold to me because in the end it will lead to a hyper-fittest-of-the-fittest thinking that I think is disgusting. Soon only the brightest kids will get "those money" because it's a waste on all the other dumb kids. Why spend money on that kid who's selling drugs? He will end up a crackhead anyway and probably be dead before he's 18 anyway. It's not the point, you'll say. It's a totally different topic, you'll say. You're reaching, you'll say. No, I'm not! It costs money to operate a democratic nation. The minute you start spending money only on "the good people" you're heading for the real destruction.

Now you're really speculating. Hey a question for you. If huge democratic governments are so good, if they care for people so well, then why would you worry about abuse of the system as you illustrated above? Just curious.

"The minute you start spending money only on "the good people" you're heading for the real destruction."

You're saying....what? Governments should support bad people in the hopes that they'll become good? I believe too much in free will to support that.



Laying down judgement?? Listen, for a while I felt pretty lonely in here before other people who shared my views started posting. If you can't take any criticism - don't bother to post! Except for maybe that one time on the Abortion topic I don't know when I was rude towards you or anybody else. I'm free to speak my mind and you always say that you're on your soap box and so on and what are you doing up there?? Expressing your own personal views and opinions, right? Using you and your life (as you have done in this last post more than ever) as arguments for you opinions, and then when I'm criticizing you, I'm laying down judgement. I'm judging you from the information I get - from you. My judgement, however, may be right or wrong or both... And I don't have hate for you. I have fear. Fear because I think you represent a big part of your big country, the most powerful country in the world...

"Toot-Toot up your ass" is a fair example. Don't judge me till you can walk in my shoes. Judge and weigh my ARGUMENTS but not me.

:rotfl: Take it easy my man... I'm resigned to be a minority. Have no fear, most think I'm severely 'out there'. I can't help what I believe though.


Hmmm... I don't understand what you mean here, I have to admit. I don't think that responds to what I said about the "lonely murdered guy".[quote]

It did though. If the killer of lonely murdered guy is caught then the money that they will spend keeping him in prison should be given to a family in need.

[quote]Look.. You don't think I pay the rent? Bills? Food? I know what makes the world go round. I gladly talk about money, but not when you weigh it against human lives.

Speaking of money, I'm surprised you didn't mention anything about the absurd warfare budget. What good does the money that you save on executed criminals do if you spend it all on the military?

You're being hypocritical again in MY view... but it's for the other thread.

War is another thread too. In this case, in this war, we may have more in common than you'd think.

Fire...
I'm going to read your article. Everything I've read states the opposite but that doesn't surprise me. Everyone has a spin.

Gotta go...

Pleasant Saturday to you people.

[The Silver Bullet]

I was told that there wasn't money to help me get through school because I wasn't black enough, asian enough, poor enough, female enough, whatever.

Oh yes, ain't that just the truth and a half?

The hurdles you have to leap to get money in civilised culture. Isn't it called discrimination in favour of?

[firegod]

Originally posted by Toose
Fire...
I'm going to read your article. Everything I've read states the opposite but that doesn't surprise me. Everyone has a spin.

Hmm. It doesn't seem to be spin; It seems to be common knowledge among those who have studied this subject well. It is not just the execution itself that is expensive. All expenses, including court costs, should be considered if we are going to say that one sentence costs more than the other.

[Piddzilla]

Originally posted by Toose
I don't have much time today so I have to be brief (I'm sure much to your relief :D )

Not at all, not at all...

Say what you will, just don't assume too much. Have I made any assumptions about your life or who you are? No, I've only worked with your arguments. You say "I'm beginning to know you well" (see your response below) I'm saying you have no idea.

Ok, this has turned out to be not about the death penalty so much as about you and me.

I don't know about your assumptions, and I don't care.
Actually, I think I'm the one of us that is sticking to the arguments.
When I told you that "I know you well", I was being ironic and sarcastic and was referring to the fact that you speak an awfully lot about yoursefl and your life in this "session". Of course I don't know you well, I'm quite clear about that.

You said that a good argument for abortion is the fact that the mother may not be financially secure enough to take care of a baby. I don't have time now to find your quote but I'll do it if you wish.

Good luck 'cause I haven't said it like that.

If you don't care how your neighbor handles things then why are you sticking your nose into my backyard? What do you care what happens here in the good ole U S of A?

First of all, when I said "neighbour" I actually meant neighbour as in the guy next door, not neighbouring countries.

Secondly, "US of A" isn't just any country now, is it? It is the only superpower left in the world and everything, good as well as bad, that happens there affects the rest of the world, even Sweden. (I'm talking about big issues and businesses now). Economically, culturally, military and so on. Now, I don't have the right to vote in your elections, but I do have the right to speak my mind. Call it "nosing in your backyard" or whatever. (Actually I think it's more like the rest of the world being used as the backyard of USA). I wasn't "nosing in your backyard" before you started and drift away from the subject up on your soap box. The death penalty issue has been secondary in this topic.

See what I mean? You DON'T know me at all... why do you have to personalize the argument? I've made no assumptions about who you are, nor do I care to. I could make some educated guesses but it's not germain to the argument. My answer was in simple english. You said I have an old fashioned fear of 'the unknown' I illustrated to you that I do not. Maybe you're unfamiliar with how grants etc. work here for school. We have to pay for our scholl. Lots of people can't afford it. There are criteria in selecting who gets government money to go to school. It was my experience that even though my economic situation was as bad or worse than some of blacks, asians etc I was passed over for government money because my skin is white. I'm NOT making any assumptions. I was flat out told by a loan officer at my school that this was why. Again, I'm not crying or bitter about it. Just an example to illustrate my points. How come you never use personal examples? I use them to demonstrate firsthand experience in the issues that I bring up.

I don't use any personal examples because I want to keep this discussion objective, not subjective, nor to be about the two of us.

I DO know about how you have to fill in your race on applications in USA and I think it's f*cking outrageous. But I don't feel that more exectutions would solve that problem, and I don't think you think that either deep inside.

For minor offenders, yes.

Ok. And kill the rest?

WTF? Our liberals have a very strong voice. No time for guns now, but I support gun ownership (No surprise to you I'd bet) :)

No, not a surprise to me, no. You're right, no time for that right here.

I know the liberals or the Democrats or whatever is "the left" in your country and I'm sure their voice is as strong as the Republicans' but I don't consider them to be a radical left party, and I'm sure there are a lot of people that agree with me on that.

Now you're really speculating. Hey a question for you. If huge democratic governments are so good, if they care for people so well, then why would you worry about abuse of the system as you illustrated above? Just curious.

I honestly don't understand your question. Are you asking me why democratic governments are good? Or are you asking me if I worry about people who exploits or abuse the system? What do you mean?

"The minute you start spending money only on "the good people" you're heading for the real destruction."

You're saying....what? Governments should support bad people in the hopes that they'll become good? I believe too much in free will to support that.

No, you believe too much in your own free will. Just because you "made it" doesn't give you the right to judge those who can't "get up" because of various reasons, the most deciding reason being social politics that hails "the strong man" and doesn't give a **** about those who's born with nothing. And now I'm not talking about just killers and maniacs but also about the ones that perhaps in the future will be killers because that society chose to look the other way. But hey, at least they have the right to own a gun.

"Toot-Toot up your ass" is a fair example. Don't judge me till you can walk in my shoes. Judge and weigh my ARGUMENTS but not me.

But, Toose, where ARE your arguments??? You haven't even mentioned the phrase "death penalty" in this post!!! I don't judge YOU. But I don't like your views or arguments, but please don't take it personal.

:rotfl: Take it easy my man... I'm resigned to be a minority. Have no fear, most think I'm severely 'out there'. I can't help what I believe though.

Well, I don't know about your views being in minority or not... I know though that death penalty is far more popular in USA than in Europe.

You're being hypocritical again in MY view... but it's for the other thread.

Eeeh... ok... :confused:

War is another thread too. In this case, in this war, we may have more in common than you'd think.

Maybe... But you don't think some of those money could be better spent on the poor people that you used to support your arguments in favour of death penalty? We don't have to discuss war just to get a straight answer to that question.

Fire...
I'm going to read your article. Everything I've read states the opposite but that doesn't surprise me. Everyone has a spin.

I know this was directed to Fire, but if I may just.....

You believe what you want to believe. It's always hard to accept that maybe, just maybe, you were wrong about this single thing. I honestly thought that keeping prisnoers in jail for life was more expensive for the state than executing them, so Fire's article was news to me. But money was never the issue why I oppose death penalty and I honestly don't think that's the reason why people are in favour of it either. They just use it as an argument to support their case.

I don't know.... It seems to me as this topic is dying since we're not even discussing the death penalty anymore... Did anyone change their opinion? No, didn't think so either.

Gotta go...

Pleasant Saturday to you people.

Well, for me it's sunday now. But a pleasant sunday to you too and have a nice new week.

[Aniko]

Well, I’m late coming into this, but here’s my view....

I strongly believe there are certain horrific crimes that warrant the death penalty. Jeffrey Dahmer immediately comes to mind. In my opinion...this man should have had the death penalty instead of fifteen consecutive life terms.

For those of you who are not familiar with the story go here......
http://www.crimelibrary.com/dahmer/dahmermain.htm

As far as the serial killer.....MaryLo I loved your statement "You don't lock up a rabid dog--you kill it before it hurts someone." This man coldly planned out, and executed 11 murders and critically wounded 2 others. I can’t image what their families must be going through. John Muhammad, in my opinion, is one of these rabid dogs.

I could go on with other examples, but you get my point.

[Sir Toose]

Hey P-Zilla

You're right we drifted. Sorry for my part in that. Well, I've supported my arguments as best I can on this issue. There is no right and wrong answer there is only a belief. I will always support the death penalty period. No argument is likely to sway me, I feel that strongly about it. You and I should just agree to disagree... anything else would be just re-covering familiar ground.


Aniko
I agree...'nuff said.

Fire/PZilla

I didn't mean that you spin things. I meant that by default we probably choose different news sources. You have to admit that those sources lean their views one way or another...painting their own opinions in a positive light to support their opinion. For every article you find that says life in prison is cheaper I can find one that says it's not (like the first post I opened this thread with).

[firegod]

But your first post leaves out a lot of the expenses. You should look at everything, including court costs. When you do that, you realize that the death penalty is more expensive. It's just that simple.

[Sir Toose]

I know you're not saying that life in prison has no court costs, right? the initial trial is the same. After the sentence both ways get 3 shots if they can prove it's warranted. How do court costs differ in either scenario?

[firegod]

Originally posted by Toose
I know you're not saying that life in prison has no court costs, right? the initial trial is the same. After the sentence both ways get 3 shots if they can prove it's warranted. How do court costs differ in either scenario?

You really should check that site out. There are a lot of factors including appeals and the prosecution spending tons more on capital cases.

[Sir Toose]

Oh okay

MAKE me do my homework then you irreverent bastard. I'll get back to you.



:D

[firegod]

Originally posted by Toose
Oh okay

MAKE me do my homework then you irreverent bastard. I'll get back to you.



:D

hehe Happy reading. :)

EDIT:Here's a real good site. It's very short, unlike the other one, and it explains very specifically why capital punishment costs more. One thing I hadn't thought about that this site mentions is defendants refusing to plead guilty and instead going to trial more in capital cases. Makes sense.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/americas/dp/dp-cost.html

[Piddzilla]

Fire/PZilla

I didn't mean that you spin things. I meant that by default we probably choose different news sources. You have to admit that those sources lean their views one way or another...painting their own opinions in a positive light to support their opinion. For every article you find that says life in prison is cheaper I can find one that says it's not (like the first post I opened this thread with).

Let me just quote Richard C. Dieter (Executive Director, Death Penalty Information Center) from the article that Firegod gave us:

The Illinois Commission recommended that Illinois reduce the number of qualifying crimes from the present 20 down to 5.14 This would focus the death penalty on the "worst of the worst" offenders, and in these kinds of cases, fewer mistakes are made. This not only saves the state money because the death penalty is sought less frequently -- it also eliminates from the system the borderline cases which are most likely to be overturned. With pressure off the courts, the prosecution, and the defense community because of a smaller caseload, cases can be completed with the utmost care, and not result in overturned convictions and sentences. I think this alternative deserves serious consideration.

Thus, the article isn't really against the death penalty. Still it points out the facts that make it clear that death penalty is not the cheapest alternative. It's objective enough for me.

Originally posted by Toose
Hey P-Zilla

You and I should just agree to disagree... anything else would be just re-covering familiar ground.

Agreed.

[Spiff]

I've skimmed over the discussion (haven't had time to read it in full) but I'd just like to say the following:

People who are put to death aren't, in my opinion, being punished for their crimes. Someone who gets executed is better off than someone who has to think about what they've done for the rest of their lives. As you may have guessed I'm not a religious person so I don't think that evil people spend the rest of eternity in a lake of fire in perpetual torment or anything like that.

Yeah, so I'm anti-death penalty and always will be. If someone close to me died then I'd probably want the killer to die in turn, but that doesn't make it right.

Thank you.

[Piddzilla]

Originally posted by Spiff
I've skimmed over the discussion (haven't had time to read it in full) but I'd just like to say the following:

People who are put to death aren't, in my opinion, being punished for their crimes. Someone who gets executed is better off than someone who has to think about what they've done for the rest of their lives. As you may have guessed I'm not a religious person so I don't think that evil people spend the rest of eternity in a lake of fire in perpetual torment or anything like that.

Yeah, so I'm anti-death penalty and always will be. If someone close to me died then I'd probably want the killer to die in turn, but that doesn't make it right.

Thank you.

Yeah, I agree with you.

[Yoda]

Originally posted by Spiff
As you may have guessed I'm not a religious person so I don't think that evil people spend the rest of eternity in a lake of fire in perpetual torment or anything like that.
*ahem*

I'm religious, and I don't believe that, either. :p

[Sir Toose]

Originally posted by Spiff
[B]I've skimmed over the discussion (haven't had time to read it in full) but I'd just like to say the following:

People who are put to death aren't, in my opinion, being punished for their crimes.

So what are they being punished for then?




Someone who gets executed is better off than someone who has to think about what they've done for the rest of their lives.
I don't know. That's way subjective. Plenty of criminals have no remorse. Prison is nirvana to some of them. No responsibilities, no worries, three squares a day. Not to mention all the benefits and freebies.


As you may have guessed I'm not a religious person so I don't think that evil people spend the rest of eternity in a lake of fire in perpetual torment or anything like that.
No, they usually pray and repent in the end, when death is close. The bible says God forgives all sinners as long as they accept him. I think God leaves it up to us to make a lake of fire to torture the bastards in.

:D

Yeah, so I'm anti-death penalty and always will be. If someone close to me died then I'd probably want the killer to die in turn, but that doesn't make it right.
Thank you.

I hear you.

[Omega]

Yeh, I believe in Heaven and Hell, a city of God and a Lake of fire.

[turkeybird099]

--the death penalty, debated much. is it 'right'?--
my opinion yea, sure,why not, they were prooven guilty after all, right?pull out the ol' guillotine and off with their heads.

( though i dont knw if i -would- go for death penalty without some sort of dna proof.....)

[Sir Toose]

I have something new to add...

I was re-reading King's "The Green Mile" over the weekend and this line by Paul Edgecombe (Hanks in the movie) jumped out at me:

"...and here we go again, taking away that which we cannot make."

I want to ask the more God focused among you about the "master plan."

Do you believe that God has a plan for each soul? If so, how do you reconcile ending the life of an individual that God may have future plans for?

...or is it that God sets us here and let's us go... free to make our choices?

Just curious.