View Full Version : MoFo Fantasy Baseball - 2013 Signups
Yep, it's time. For those who don't know, we play a fantasy baseball league on here, and it's free. Anyone can join, though if you're not familiar with the game at all it might not be the ideal place to learn. Mainly, though, we just want enthusiastic owners who like baseball. :) And first preference is given to owners from previous years and (to a much lesser extent) longtime regulars. But generally speaking we find room for just about everyone if they really want to play.
So, I'm thinking Roto again this year. It was a little strange last year but by season's end it seemed like everyone got it and enjoyed it well enough.
I'm in, which makes one. Dex has already told me he's in, so that's two. Who else wants to play? :)
DexterRiley (Defending Champeens)
Yoda (Freedonia Ducks)
mark f (Dodgers)
Tim (Suicide Squeeze)
rauldc14 (Peanuts&Crackerjacks)
TONGO (The Naturals)
syj (Fightin' Fontenots)
Powdered Water (The Russell Wilson 9)
Adam (Quickie Marte)
7thson (Kiny Ks)
Frightened Inmate No. 2 (The Loose Seals)
Sedai (Clockwork Angels)
mikeython1 (Done and Dunn; team name likely to change)
Vito (Jobu)
Some of you should already have invites in your email inboxes, by the way. Same addresses you used last year, so if you don't have it and/or have changed emails, fire a PM my way with the new one. :)
EDIT: I should add that I've chosen a draft date of Sunday, March 17th at 2:00 PM ET. This is open to negotiation if it poses a problem for some people, but we want to work that out as soon as possible, so if there's any issue let me know ASAP.
I realize I am new, so I will definitely wait until all of the managers from previous years and forum regulars have claimed their spots, but if there are any openings left, I'd love to play. I've been playing fantasy baseball since 2004, mostly roto and mostly live drafting, but I've done head-to-head and auction formats before too, so I'm okay with whatever.
As much as I enjoy following football and soccer, I've been waiting for baseball season to start again since November.
Cool. There's a really good chance there'll be an opening, and I'll make sure your cap's in the ring. :) We obviously like it when regulars can return year after year, but we also like getting new users into the mix whenever we can.
ManOf1000Faces
02-11-13, 04:13 PM
Is this thread baseball MLB or another european word for something?
MLB baseball. Fantasy baseball, specifically. :) We've been playing each other on here for a few years.
ManOf1000Faces
02-11-13, 04:27 PM
oh okay. Do we have Fantasy Hockey?
We do not. Not enough interest, I suppose. But if someone wanted to take charge of a league and see if they can gin up enough owners, they'd certainly be welcome to try. :)
ManOf1000Faces
02-11-13, 04:41 PM
Groovy but I don't see many Hockey fans.
Cool. There's a really good chance there'll be an opening, and I'll make sure your cap's in the ring. :) We obviously like it when regulars can return year after year, but we also like getting new users into the mix whenever we can.
Thanks! I totally understand if there isn't room. I might turn to you all for advice on this keeper league I'm in, though. :)
I should note that we're currently shooting to draft on Sunday, March 17th at 2:00 PM ET (11:00 AM for our PST owners). I chose this because it's just two weeks before opening day, and because in past years Sunday's been the day that's worked best for the most people.
If anyone has a big problem with this date, try to let me know as soon as possible.
DexterRiley
02-12-13, 10:52 AM
Defending Champeens have registered officially like.
rauldc14
02-12-13, 02:07 PM
I'm in this year again. Hoping for a bit more luck to roll my way. I'll be changing my team name, just don't know what to yet.
I am in, and have the perfect draft strategy. Pefect! Take notes and behold the wonder. Looking forward to this for a loooong time. PLAY BALL!
That's six signed up with Adam and Mike already committed to. And I think we can pretty safely count PW in, so that'd be 9.
I assume we're not having Ray back, and I haven't heard from Vince in quite awhile (and he let his lineup sit for a good chunk of last year, if I recall correctly). There's also Dionne, who I've seen sporadically. So it seems like we'll definitely have a slot or two open for new owners. :)
I know Ray would want to come back if we'd have him. Last year his involvement was epic-fail like measurements, but hes in ALOT better place in his life now. He is a good guy. Having said all that I understand if it isnt gonna happen, and think new MoFos wanting to be in should hold higher priority.
Mike Trout #1 ?! WTF?! Longorias not in the 1st round?! LOL! The fact that Prince Fatter is ahead of Longo shows many lost faith in Evan playing a complete year. Mike Trout #1....hasnt anyone in Yahoo heard of sophmore slumps.
Oh and Im for season long roto but would play either happily.
We'll see where we are, but yeah, I think it's only fair that Ray only take a spot if everybody who wants one has one and it looks like we could actively use another.
Meanwhile, everyone welcome syj AKA Scott, our newest owner! :) He's the Fightin' Fontenots, if you look on the league site.
DexterRiley
02-13-13, 12:19 PM
Welcome new mofo chums.
http://www.the-cartoonist.com/vault/otl/richdiesslin_shark_chum.jpg
:D
Wonder if hes any relation to Mike Fontenot the ballplayer. I think he was playing for the Giants last year. Curious what his fav team is, hopefully not Red Sox :D
Wonder if hes any relation to Mike Fontenot the ballplayer. I think he was playing for the Giants last year. Curious what his fav team is, hopefully not Red Sox :D
Thanks for having me everybody! And no, I'm no relation, haha. I'm a Giants fan, which means it's a good time to be a baseball fan, but Fontenot hasn't been on the Giants since 2010. I was just looking for a catchy name, plus Fontenot sorta looks like a hobbit (movie-related!). I'll probably change the name if I think of something better, though.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s0A8F9IQy-4/TcnNzbquR-I/AAAAAAAAAWA/W87owddoVfM/s1600/san-francisco-giants-pablo-sandoval-hugs-teammate-mike-fontenot-after-batting-practice-for-the-nlcs-mlb-baseball-series-philadelphia1.jpg
Frightened Inmate No. 2
02-13-13, 08:52 PM
I would be interesting in joining if there is enough room for me. It's not a big deal if there isn't, though.
Thanks for having me everybody! And no, I'm no relation, haha. I'm a Giants fan, which means it's a good time to be a baseball fan, but Fontenot hasn't been on the Giants since 2010. I was just looking for a catchy name, plus Fontenot sorta looks like a hobbit (movie-related!). I'll probably change the name if I think of something better, though.
Welcome to the league syj. Youre not truly "in" the league though till you complete a trade with me. Even Mark F, who never trades, succumbed to the pulp fiction glowing suitcase known as my trade offers. The draft cant get here soon enough.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FWNSXk5LCUg/ThRYlpjskQI/AAAAAAAAABc/BtysldAeD9A/s1600/vince+looks+into+briefcase.jpg
Powdered Water
02-16-13, 02:10 AM
We can't use our own logo's anymore? Kind of a bummer.
I think they'll be back eventually.
Probably. But I just signed up for a new Gravatar email address anyway. Their uploading/cropping is better than Yahoo's, which was already temperamental, and I already have an account for other stuff, and it's free and all that.
So, The Russell Wilson 9. I guess your football team's going to be called The Felix Hernandez 11?
Speaking of which, I'm thinking of changing my team name. Isotopes is solid, since I love me some Simpsons, but it's not on par with 11 Angry Men, my football name, which I probably couldn't top if I thought about it for a week solid.
I shall have to consider this further. But I think this is the year...
Nine Men Out? ... although we get stats for ten.
Oh, I'm determined to use something at least too clever by half. Maybe even too clever by two-thirds.
Oh, it says on the league page that they'll be adding a custom upload tool soon. So there ya' go.
Powdered Water
02-17-13, 02:20 AM
So, The Russell Wilson 9. I guess your football team's going to be called The Felix Hernandez 11?
I'm thinking possibly: The Wilson Has Landed. That may be too long though.
Big news:
Sale Completed: Isotopes Moved to Freedonia
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
FEBRUARY 17, 2013
CONTACT: RUFUS T. FIREFLY
This morning, representatives from both sides of the transaction confirmed that the two-time champion Springfield Isotopes had been sold to the MarxCo Group, a fund consisting of four eccentric brothers based in Freedonia.
"This is a tremendous opportunity," said MarxCo spokesman Rufus T. Firefly. "Freedonia is a fast-growing nation thanks to its abundant exports of face paint and cigar ash, and acquiring a pretend sports team really puts us on the map. Even though you won't be able to find us on any of them, technically speaking." When asked of the controversy surrounding the recent attempted coup of the Freedonian government, Firefly brushed it off, saying only "I...uh, I mean my employer...has taken care of it. The important thing is that the sale is completed. And closing a sale is what all good Marxists do."
Fans of the team were upset by the news, but after two consecutive years without a championship, most of them had anticipated a change.
"I just thought they'd fire that idiot GM," said longtime Isotopes fan Stanley G. Notmadeup. "I mean, how do you lose with a lineup of Ryan Braun, Albert Pujols, Jose Bautista, Andrew McCutchen, and Miguel Cabrera? And to that one monkey guy who wouldn't stop trading? A change had to be made."
Early reports are that the new team, which will play in the recently built Afflack Arena, will be named the Ducks.
http://www.movieforums.com/community/resize/phpThumb.php?src=http://sportdrawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ducks_logo_2.png&w=350
Notmadeup, my eye. That's gotta be an alias.
I dunno. His friend, Guy Incognito, vouched for him.
Powdered Water
02-17-13, 02:40 PM
The people of Springfield will not forget. They will not forgive.
Just another thing for Shelbyville to lord over them.
Still the sting from the year before last rears its head! It was an upset no doubt about it. Thought Id do better last year, but I tied with the now defunct Topes for 4th. Maybe old Roy Hobbs has another season left in him. Defending Champeen best savor the flavor.
Freedonia Ducks. I dont know. Is there some fantasy code amongst old timer fantasy team owners to not display any homerism whatsoever?! How bout the Freedonia Pirates. Now thats badass. :) Ducks are cute.
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXNvvXnvpOcjaQDZgJvXNrn02hZrOKSnsTncKe_22MZqhIhEOq
Powdered Water
02-20-13, 11:05 PM
Maybe Yoda really likes ducks.
They are cute. Donald Duck was always my favorite over Mickey. I never knew what the hell an Isotope was anyway.
The American League East got even more ridiculous in the offseason. Many experts believe any team can win it. The Blue Jays are scary, but the Marlins proved last year (sorry raul) that you cant buy a winner. Then theres the Yankees whove known how to work with their blue-chippers for decades. Kinda like in basketball how Phil Jackson focused the Lakers. Baltimore has tasted victory, and I feel theyre for real. Without Valentine I believe the BoSox will have a MUCH better season.
Rays gave up Shields, but still have the greatest pitching staff in ALL of baseball. The Rays got a great minor league A+ blue chipper in Wil Myers, but are still the worst hitters in ALL of baseball.
Boys, please stay healthy....
Re: Ducks. Ya'll get the reference, right?
DexterRiley
02-21-13, 09:38 AM
Still the sting from the year before last rears its head! It was an upset no doubt about it.
heh
I was in less that 1st place for 37 days. 33 of which to start the season.
Upset Shmupset. :D
I think he means two years back.
The Rays got a great minor league A+ blue chipper in Wil Myers, but are still the worst hitters in ALL of baseball.
I present to you, the Houston Astros starting lineup:
1. Jose Altuve, 2B
2. Fernando Martinez, OF
3. Carlos Pena, DH
4. Chris Carter, OF
5. Brett Wallace, 1B
6. Justin Maxwell, OF
7. Jason Castro, C
8. Tyler Greene, SS
9. Matt Dominguez, 3B
Altuve is pretty good, and adding Carter helps, but man, that's a bad lineup. It's a good thing their pitching is solid...oh wait. Here's what the Rays have:
1. Desmond Jennings, OF
2. Yunel Escobar, SS
3. Ben Zobrist, OF
4. Evan Longoria, 3B
5. Matt Joyce, OF
6. Luke Scott, DH
7. Kelly Johnson, 2B
8. James Loney, 1B
9. Jose Molina, C
When they bring up Myers, they'll probably move Zobrist to 2B or 1B. But that lineup is decent, even though their numbers get depressed a bit by their ballpark.
I present to you, the Houston Astros starting lineup:
1. Jose Altuve, 2B
2. Fernando Martinez, OF
3. Carlos Pena, DH
4. Chris Carter, OF
5. Brett Wallace, 1B
6. Justin Maxwell, OF
7. Jason Castro, C
8. Tyler Greene, SS
9. Matt Dominguez, 3B
Altuve is pretty good, and adding Carter helps, but man, that's a bad lineup. It's a good thing their pitching is solid...oh wait. Here's what the Rays have:
1. Desmond Jennings, OF
2. Yunel Escobar, SS
3. Ben Zobrist, OF
4. Evan Longoria, 3B
5. Matt Joyce, OF
6. Luke Scott, DH
7. Kelly Johnson, 2B
8. James Loney, 1B
9. Jose Molina, C
When they bring up Myers, they'll probably move Zobrist to 2B or 1B. But that lineup is decent, even though their numbers get depressed a bit by their ballpark.
Yeah well its true the Rays arent technically the worst hitters in baseball, but when youve got an ace on the mound pitching a 1 or 2 hitter and the Rays still manage to lose 1-0, it leaves an impression. That happened to David Price at least twice last year.
Expect good things out of Chris Carter, and hope Pena does better for you than he did us. I assume youre a Astros fan?
Yeah well its true the Rays arent technically the worst hitters in baseball, but when youve got an ace on the mound pitching a 1 or 2 hitter and the Rays still manage to lose 1-0, it leaves an impression. That happened to David Price at least twice last year.
Expect good things out of Chris Carter, and hope Pena does better for you than he did us. I assume youre a Astros fan?
Oh man, no I am not an Astros fan. Thank God for that. I'm a Giants fan, so I know what you mean about 1-0 losses leaving an impression. Matt Cain had years of 7-16 or 8-14 seasons where he had a low ERA, because the Giants offense in 2007-2009 was just the worst. One year he threw a complete game one-hitter against the A's and still lost. I just think it's interesting when teams might be historically bad, and the Astros might approach 105-110 losses.
I know it might be a sore subject, with you being a Rays fan, but can you imagine if the Rays had drafted Posey instead of Tim Beckham in 2008? You guys would probably be the ones with multiple titles in the last couple of years. I would probably go with the Rays and Blue Jays as co-favorites in the AL East, though. Should be a tight race.
I know it might be a sore subject, with you being a Rays fan, but can you imagine if the Rays had drafted Posey instead of Tim Beckham in 2008? You guys would probably be the ones with multiple titles in the last couple of years. I would probably go with the Rays and Blue Jays as co-favorites in the AL East, though. Should be a tight race.
Yeah I was in the car and remembered then you said you were a Giants fan. Yeah, Posey woulda been great. Madden being a former catcher himself Im surprised he didnt like him. If Poseys not good defensively (I dont know) then thats why the Rays passed on him. Maddens a mark for the glove.
Yeah dude you guys winning the world series was a great big WTF to me. Did not see that coming. Have awesome pitching and a batting order with a heartbeat, and its amazing what a team can accomplish.;)
rauldc14
02-23-13, 11:51 AM
I honestly hope this is how the standings lay out:
1. Blue Jays
2. Rays
3. Orioles
4. Yankees
5. Red Sox
but the probable layout:
1. Yankees
2. Rays
3. Orioles
4. Red Sox
5. Blue Jays
wouldn't be surprised if 2013 Blue Jays are the 2012 Marlins.
A big welcome to our newest owner, Frightened Inmate No. 2, manager of "The Loose Seals." :)
Once Sedai registers that'll be 12. We have another new user interested, so if we can find one more in the next week or two we can bump it up to 14.
rauldc14
02-23-13, 02:14 PM
ba fooey. go figure I work on the 17th.
A big welcome to our newest owner, Frightened Inmate No. 2, manager of "The Loose Seals." :)
Once Sedai registers that'll be 12. We have another new user interested, so if we can find one more in the next week or two we can bump it up to 14.
Awesome! I won the league when we had 14 owners :)
Awesome! I won the league when we had 14 owners :)
That is because you are a grinder.
That is because you are a grinder.
Youre probhably right. I remember back in 2011 it was a head-to-head season and I was on a huge winstreak. Then I played Yodas team bout halfway thru the season. He whooped my ass decisively. I then learned to scour the waiver wire, and rebuilt my team entirely. Even when I was facing Yodas 11AM in the finals I was switching guys in and out. Honestly the only people I remember now being on my team is Robert Andino (who hit a inside the park home run the day I picked him up), and of course a bunch of Rays.
To Dexter - Youve taken my property and Im getting it back. Shine my trophy up nice, save up for the postage to send it to me by seasons end. Till then please try and make this competitive for me :D
Powdered Water
02-24-13, 12:25 PM
Are we doing Roto again? I seem to remember a few folks were not in love with the format.
Was planning to do it again, but I'm open to persuasion. I remember some owners not loving it, but only in the literal sense of just liking it okay.
Powdered Water
02-24-13, 01:11 PM
I think I liked it better than the total randomness of the weekly head-to-head thing.
Yeah, that's still where I come down. It feels more like baseball to have it be a big, season-long thing, rather than the weekly swings and random wins/losses you get with football.
Yeah, that's still where I come down. It feels more like baseball to have it be a big, season-long thing, rather than the weekly swings and random wins/losses you get with football.
Ive put thought towards this and completely agree. Season long roto is a much more appropriate format when dealing with baseball. Baseball isnt a week to week thing, its a life onto its own for about half a year :laugh:
Two weeks from today, everyone.
Ive done a good half dozen mock drafts, and have come to the conclusion that even in a 12 team league MLB is so talent deep its bout impossible to not draft a good team. Ive got 3 or 4 draft strategies, and thats not counting the Yahoo autopick fallback. I won the league letting Yahoo pick for me, and then I remember all the drafts raul missed, had the autothingy draft his team, and him howl in pain for weeks. It leaves an impression on you.
Well, obviously most of the teams won't be good, no matter how they draft. But I know what you mean: there's enough uncertainty that quite a few teams could come out of the draft with a team that could be good. Which, of course, is also another way of saying that a lot of teams will look better than they are.
Keep in mind my fairly solid looking team that had me frantically rebuilding the pitching staff when my "aces" busted out early, tanking my pitching stats into oblivion; I spent the entire season attempting to rectify that damage. I DID finally get it under control, and learned a few things along the way.
Like making sure I get to my damn baseball draft!
Yeah, I forget: have you literally missed all four? I know it's at least two or three of them, but I think it might be all four.
All four. I made all the FFB drafts, and none of the FBB drafts...I am NOT missing the FBB draft this year, dang it!
Powdered Water
03-05-13, 09:50 PM
So far, all I can say about being at the drafts is that I think I'm a little better at drafting a Baseball team than a Football team. I have no evidence to support this claim whatsoever.
I changed my team name to Clockwork Angels, btw...
I saw. Lots of mixing it up this year. We've got 10 returning owners, though, which is cool. Love the turnover rate here; couple new faces every year, but lots of ongoing history, too.
Yeah we need to get a trophy, and whoever wins gets it. On the plaque should have all the previous champions names. Cheaper to just use one trophy and ship it each year to the winner, and the trophy may have more significance too. Just my two cents.
Love the idea in theory, but I'm already springing for a football one every year in a league with no entrance fees.
And let's be honest, if we do the traveling trophy thing, someone's gonna be lax about sending it along to the next guy. Always happens. Very hard to do that sort of thing without a bunch of owners who know and see each other regularly offline.
I can throw some cash your way for the FFB trophy cost next year, if'n you like!
No worries, I'm glad to do it for now. Just sayin' that another one might be a bit much. And as much as everyone here likes baseball, it's certainly a more casual affair than the football league.
Oh, by the way: THE DRAFT IS ONE WEEK FROM TODAY. ONE WEEK. MARCH 17TH. 2:00 PM ET/11:00 AM PT.
The draft is SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohp_nmI_TFA
Since this is the last weekday, it seems worth mentioning again: the draft is THIS SUNDAY. Two days from now.
Sedai, if you miss this one, I'm making fun of you for it forever.
rauldc14
03-15-13, 01:52 PM
Unfortunately I'll be missing the draft. My rankings are set up to 200. This time I excluded players that I don't want as well, so at least I won't get players that I don't want. We'll see how it ends up.
Frightened Inmate No. 2
03-15-13, 02:25 PM
I'll probably have to miss the draft. At least the beginning of it.
Since this is the last weekday, it seems worth mentioning again: the draft is THIS SUNDAY. Two days from now.
Sedai, if you miss this one, I'm making fun of you for it forever.
I will be there!! :)
Frightened Inmate No. 2
03-15-13, 06:51 PM
I'll probably miss the whole thing. I won't be able to get to my computer until at least 2 hours after the start of the draft.
24 hours from now....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDLzG4AxRpA
DexterRiley
03-16-13, 04:13 PM
will he or wont he.
will seds make the draft, or will yahoo draft 37 middle relievers.
Both. He'll make the draft and then take all middle relievers, thereby cornering the market on Holds. Which isn't a category.
DexterRiley
03-16-13, 04:17 PM
No worries, I'm glad to do it for now. Just sayin' that another one might be a bit much. And as much as everyone here likes baseball, it's certainly a more casual affair than the football league.
hey if u grandfather this gesture and send me a trinket, a bauble a whatever to commemorate the truly awesomeness that was last season, i fully expect u to misspell my name.
balance in the universe restored it must be.
:D
(privatey joke, but also an excuse for Yodes to bust out his hardware from this past FF season)
mikeython1
03-16-13, 05:29 PM
I know this is late but is there still a spot open ?
Well, we had one other person interested. If both of you jumped in (or if you got someone else)...maybe. But you'd have to get confirmation from them. We're less than 24 hours from the draft, after all. A few days would've made all the difference.
Most likely option is to talk someone into bowing out, I guess, if they can't make the draft or something.
mikeython1
03-16-13, 05:36 PM
I have a friend. We both can draft tomorrow. Do u want his email?
Might work. But I'd need to hear from the other owners, since this involves them and I assume a number of us (including me) have been practicing mock drafts with 12 players, not 14. What say you, guys? PM, post comment, or public post is fine. Just need some other opinions here.
mikeython1
03-16-13, 05:45 PM
Just let me know? I will monitor this thread all night.
I wish you'd monitored it any time in the past few weeks, when you were posting almost every day and somehow never noticed it. :p
Okay, sorry, too mean. ;) Hope we can find a way to make this work.
mikeython1
03-16-13, 05:48 PM
I know im sorry. :(
I just can't stay mad at you.
hey if u grandfather this gesture and send me a trinket, a bauble a whatever to commemorate the truly awesomeness that was last season, i fully expect u to misspell my name.
balance in the universe restored it must be.
:D
(privatey joke, but also an excuse for Yodes to bust out his hardware from this past FF season)
:rotfl:
Here's what he's talking about. One of the statue, and one of the...uh...plaque. Have a look at the inscription.
Powdered Water
03-17-13, 10:54 AM
Something tells me I'm not going to get Mike Trout this year. Unless maybe, I get the first pick.
He usually goes there, but often 2nd and sometimes 3rd.
Meanwhile, after asking around the league I received mostly positive responses to the idea of mikey and his friend joining, even at the last minute. So they've been sent invitations. If they can signup before, like, 1:20 PM, then they're in. Otherwise I think we'll have to lock the teams. So hopefully they'll sign on soon. If not, there's always next year.
And oh yeah: about an hour and a half from now. Should have draft order in about an hour, which is why that's the team-locking deadline.
You only need to make it another 51 minutes without getting distracted by something shiny.
mikeython1
03-17-13, 02:09 PM
We are in! Thank U. I am so excited!!!!!!:yup:
Woo! I'm hoping for top-3 or near the end of the round. The middle looks kind of iffy.
Powdered Water
03-17-13, 02:22 PM
I'll take pick #1 if it's still available.
We'll know where we're picking in less than 10 minutes...
Powdered Water
03-17-13, 02:24 PM
Quiet you. I'm trying to land the #1 pick here!!!
Now, make sure you're sacrificing a live chicken. If you try to sacrifice a dead one, you'll end up with the 11th pick. Unless the dead chicken is cursed, in which case you'll be stricken by a terrible disease, get the 5th pick, and then die.
Powdered Water
03-17-13, 02:29 PM
That's way to complicated. I need a direct line to who ever's in charge, so I can just deal straight with the source. Does Satan accept collect calls?
Powdered Water
03-17-13, 02:33 PM
9th... Pffftttt!
DexterRiley
03-17-13, 02:44 PM
lucky for u yodes.
dang gummit 2nd hole
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