MOFO Movie Tournament 2012 Bracket 1

[rauldc14]

Well, here we are folks. Another year, another tournament. Since I assume this won't have as many people who have seen most of the films (at least in comparison to last years). I'm going to leave the first couple rounds up for a month, so there's no rush. So the 1st Bracket will be up until May 22nd. Of course, I'll probably open up the voting in other brackets as well beforehand, and then we will have the brackets being staggered. Enjoy everyone and hopefully we get some good participation!


Bracket 1
1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

[wintertriangles]

Bracket 1
1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetery Man (haven't seen)
9. Vertigo

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller (haven't seen)
12. Escape from New York

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia (I still love this)

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance I really hope this doesn't get shut out immediately
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

[mark f]

I think that last time we were supposed to vote for what we've seen, and then if we watched something we hadn't seen then we'd add that vote in a later, separate post. In other words, we aren't supposed to go back and edit posts once we've voted. Correct?

Maybe you should add some basic rules or copy and paste last year's.

[Tyler1]

Bracket 1
1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

...to be updated when i've seen what i've to see.

[Nausicaä]

1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

[linespalsy]

I'm with mark about making new posts when we update votes. More chances for discussion, at least in theory. For now here's what I'm voting:

(need to see) 1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

I saw Cemetary Man about 14 years ago with my High School friends who were all really into Horror movies, Alejandro Jodorowsky and David Lynch (we all chipped in and bought a communal vhs box set of Twin Peaks). It left a pretty strong impression on me, or at least I can still remember the ending and the general tone of dark fantasy meets zany comedy. I don't think I'll have time to see it again before May 22nd, but I'll hold off on voting for now just in case I do. Today my vote would go to Vertigo, easily.
It would be interesting to compare the two stories, both about men obsessed with a dead woman who seems to get mysteriously resurrected in her exact double. The double-barrel conceit in Vertigo [where the woman is "playing a role" that she then accidentally falls into "for real", and the man is an unwitting (but willing) audience for a phony plot] is a classic that has been imitated do death but (at least in my memory) other than some broad similarities Cemetary Man does it's own weird little thing.
While I think Vertigo is definitely flawed (I'm probably alone in thinking that the acting isn't great and that the dated visual effects are a problem) the good far outweighs the bad and it's a great, highly entertaining film. The pacing seems inspired to me: almost slow enough to frustrate but not quite, I find it hypnotic. Bernard Herrmann's score is wonderful. That early scene in the restaurant conveys an intricate plot set-up with beautiful style and ambiguity. One visual "effect" that does work is Kim Novak's hair.

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

I didn't think Escape from NY was half as fun as it wanted to be (but then again I thought the same about Halloween 15 years ago and only recently watched it with a new appreciation), but McCabe & Mrs. Miller is fantastic. Vilmos Zsigmond's cinematography is perfect.

(need to see) 4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

I'd see it again but The Truman Show felt a little too easy to me when it came out. I was instantly sold on the premise of a man whose life is a movie that everyone but he is in on, but the "movie" ending where everything is revealed just felt a little forced.
I don't know if I still want to call Shivers one of my "favorites", but I think it packs a good deal of cleverness and creepiness for such a cheap movie by a relatively-inexperienced director. The sets, acting and cinematography are pretty ordinary so the fact that it still conveys a coherent nightmarish tone and suspense I credit to the writing. Shivers is very good low-key science fiction.

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

I haven't seen either of these since they came out but I think it's pretty much a toss-up for me. I'm going to wait a little while to vote, though I don't love either one.

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

I felt like this could go either way based on whatever I've seen most recently. Right now I'd give The Graduate a slight edge.

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

Now Belle de Jour is one that I really should see again. I've always been lukewarm at-best on Bunuel and this one is no exception, but anything Sacha Vierny is worth a re-watch. I am Love was an instant favorite though. I watched it twice in one sitting.

[re93animator]

1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

[wintertriangles]

I guess I should make a case...!

Sympathy For Mr. Vengeance vs. Seven

Sympathy is underrated if or if not standing next to the other two films of the trilogy, but there are so many peculiarities in it that, after finding more to like about it every time I watch, it's mind boggling how little attention this gets for bridging the gap possibly the most successfully between Hitchcockian days and today's "thriller" what-have-yous. The societal subtleties, like the class comparisons, the ironic anarchist, or the impossibly humorous moments during horrid sequences (or talking about ants in sign language during sex), or the way that actions made in the best conscience continuously paint the future bleaker, it all adds up to a realistic surreal photo of a couple days wherein people's lives are altered immensely, blurring the lines between who is right and wrong, and in the end sympathy is felt for everyone involved. Seven can't do any of that for me.
Park Chan-Wook said this was his favorite of the trilogy even though it was hated upon release. Personally it's a solidification of his aptitude; this is one of the movies I always think about when I'm filming.

Vampyr VS LOTR

A fair contest, and yet historical importance aside Vampyr is an epitomizing "dream" film that has rarely been touched in that respect. For me, that alone is enough to beat LOTR, but I can go on to say I prefer the soundtrack as well. The way it all works via the viewer's subconscious is masterful.

The Rules of the Game vs. Fantasia

A film of entendres and foresight, The Rules... manages to be both hilarious and infuriating. I just had a long discussion with my french teacher about this film, and we both couldn't run out of minute details to explore together, so much so that she nearly forgot she had to go back home to her child. It's a great memory.

Shivers vs. The Truman Show

Cronenberg is the only director I know who can incorporate sex in his films in ways that would even make the French cringe. And yet his symbolism, while covered in blood and other precious fluids, and profound or obvious, is always worth the thought. The Truman Show is still very good, but apparently too honest for a lot of people to recognize, but I guess I'm partial to the weirdness in this circumstance.

The Graduate vs. Kind Hearts and Coronets

Just based off comparing scripts, Kind Hearts is clever as hell, and dark at points which is my preference. It vaguely reminds me of The Ruling Class in terms of outlandish british black comedies that use lighting in extremely ironic ways. The Graduate feels pretty amateur in comparison.

I Am Love vs. Belle de Jour

I love them both so I grabbed a nickel

[HollyG]

Okay just to make sure I grabed the right film I Am Love is 2009?

[honeykid]

I think that last time we were supposed to vote for what we've seen, and then if we watched something we hadn't seen then we'd add that vote in a later, separate post. In other words, we aren't supposed to go back and edit posts once we've voted. Correct?

Maybe you should add some basic rules or copy and paste last year's.

^^This^^

Also, don't forget that Cemetery Man is also (and some would say, better,) known as "Dellamorte Dellamore" and The Rules Of The Game better known as La Règle du jeu.

My picks atm

1. Vampyr 16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring
It's ok, but more importantly, it's not LotR which, even though it's my fave of the three, is still really boring.

4. The Rules of the Game 13. Fantasia
This is even more of a "because it's not the other one" pick. I've only seen it once, but I have no idea what all the fuss is about with The Rules Of The Game. However, I really hated Fantasia. I think I'd have chosen LotR over this.

3. Shivers 14. The Truman Show
Love Shivers and The Truman Show was one of, if not the, most disappointing cinema experiences of my life.

7. The Graduate 10. Kind Hearts and Coronets
Again, it's not the other one. KHaC is ok, a nice afternoon film, but not a film that provokes any real emotion within me. Whereas The Graduate bores me.

[HitchFan97]

The only film I've seen here is Vertigo... :eek:

LOTR, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, Seven, and The Graduate have all been in my watchlist for some time.

[mark f]

I'll vote some time, but examine winter's and honey's [rationale for their] votes and just assume that I believe the exact opposite, and you'll have a very basic idea of my opinions. :cool:

[thracian dawg]

1. Vampyr (need to see)
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (need to see)
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

2. I am Love *
15. Belle de Jour (1967) 　

* My video club recently stocked this predominantly, so every time I would turn down that aisle, I would see the cover and imagine Maria Callas belting out that line: Io sono l'amore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVFjPqAvVhY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVFjPqAvVhY&feature=related)

[linespalsy]

Okay just to make sure I grabed the right film I Am Love is 2009?

I am Love is from 2009 or so and stars Tilda Swinton.

[Deadite]

Fellowship of the Ring
Vertigo
McCabe and Mrs. Miller
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance

[ash_is_the_gal]

movie marathon starts... NOW!

[Deadite]

The only film I've seen here is Vertigo... :eek:

LOTR, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, Seven, and The Graduate have all been in my watchlist for some time.

You should ASAP. Those are four of the greatest films of their genres.

[rauldc14]

I tried to look for some basic groundrules from last year's but I really didn't find anything that I could use, so I'll try to refresh everyones memory.

You CANNOT vote for a matchup if you haven't seen both films.

You CANNOT change your vote. Once you have voted on a matchup, it should remain to be your initial vote.

Please add your votes for matchups in a separate post. I do generally update scorings for matchups and by adding it to a new post this just makes this process a lot easier.

The biggest thing encouraged is discussion, which I've already seen on here which is great!

As for me, it looks like I have a movie marathon that I'll need to do as well for not only this bracket, but the entire field. Tons of films I haven't seen as I've probably only seen 30-40ish of them.

[JayDee]

Wow, the way its been set out I can't vote on a single tie just now. I've seen almost half the films but none in the same match-up


more importantly, it's not LotR which, even though it's my fave of the three, is still really boring.


Boo! Hiss!

:p

[honeykid]

I'll vote some time, but examine winter's and honey's [rationale for their] votes and just assume that I believe the exact opposite, and you'll have a very basic idea of my opinions. :cool:
Yeah, you're all kinds of wrong today. :p

[Brodinski]

Bracket 1
1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

[Deadite]

Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance is a superior film to Se7en. Why can't you people see that?!

[mark f]

Probably because it ain't so.:p

[Tyler1]

Why can't you people see that Se7en is a supremely crafted serial killer movie and one of the best of its genre? One that makes you think out of the box?

[Thursday Next]

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

[wintertriangles]

Why can't you people see that Se7en is a supremely crafted serial killer movie and one of the best of its genre? One that makes you think out of the box?And how is Sympathy inside the box?

[Deadite]

Se7en is much more formulaic in comparison to Mr. Vengeance. There's no contest.

[wintertriangles]

I'm not even saying Se7en is bad, or not one of the best of it's genre, but it's not exactly outside the box, and I'm not sure how it makes you think out of the box other than in comparison with the typical mystery thriller.

PS: never thought I'd see the day when I'm paired with Deadite in battle

[Thursday Next]

I'm pretty sure that "out of the box" was intended as a reference to a specific plot point of Seven, and not a suggestion that Sympathy is in any way less thought-provoking.

[Deadite]

Agreed, WT. Se7en is a great movie, but if we're comparing them being "out of the box" then Mr. Vengeance wins hands-down.

Se7en is, all said and done, another serial killer movie. The gimmick is killing according to the 7 deadly sins, and it works because of the good performances and great claustrophobic direction which makes you feel you're gradually sinking into a kind of Boschian nightmare.

Director Park's Sympathy For Mr. Vengeance. however, is a mature and complex neo-Hitchcockian thriller about a deaf-mute (and his girlfriend) planning, then botching, a kidnapping in order to pay for his sister's kidney transplant.

Unlike Se7en, there are no clear lines drawn between good and evil. None of the people in Sympathy are trying to be anything more than people, all acting out of their own motivations to survive or do what they think is right (often an ambivalent mix of both) yet the results are increasingly horrifying.

It's a masterpiece, terribly underrated, not to be missed and unforgettable.

[Deadite]

I'm pretty sure that "out of the box" was intended as a reference to a specific plot point of Seven, and not a suggestion that Sympathy is in any way less thought-provoking.

This is exactly the point, though. In terms of "thought-provoking" Se7en is not in the same league. It is stylish but not as substantial as Sympathy. Sympathy lives and breathes in moral ambiguity. Se7en simply does not.

[wintertriangles]

That scene when the doctor is saying they got the extra kidney for his sister...I love how the guy is mute because as if this part wasn't horrible enough you have to perceive his reaction.

[Deadite]

I think the part that broke my heart the most was right after Ryu went home thinking it worked out, and he was playing with the little girl so happily like a big brother. That was the point just before the tragic twist. That was the moment I realized how much I liked and felt for him. And despite everything, even knowing that he was largely responsible for all the ensuing tragedy, I still do feel that way.

[lundy1026]

Alright guys, I'm in on this one. Good thing I got til May 22 because I've only seen half of all those listed. I'm glad to be in on this becuase I've been re-watching zombie movies lately lol and it's about time I switch it up and see some new material. :)

Ill have my results in by the due date.

[thracian dawg]

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

Loved the suggestion. During the autopsy, the camera just holds on his face while you hear a saw and bones crunching. When the President questions the girlfriend, she's covered with a blanket so one can only imagine.

On the short list of great deaf characters, Ryu comes in just behind Marlee Matlin "Children of a lesser God" and Alan Arkin "The heart is a lonely hunter"

[rauldc14]

I've only seen 4 of these 16 films and none of them match up. I think I should give Mr. Vengeance a shot

[stevo3001]

1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

I'll try to watch Cemetary Man and Shivers soon.

[ash_is_the_gal]

i've started watching some of the films for this bracket. i feel a little ashamed to admit this, but i haven't seen very many of them. this might take awhile. i probably won't be watching all of them. most of them, though. i had to rent Vampyrs from Netflix because i couldn't find it anywhere to download.

it's about time i finally got around to seeing Vertigo, anyhow...

[HitchFan97]

^See it! :D

[honeykid]

And marvel at how overrated it is. :D

[mark f]

That's funny. Even if it's winning so far, Shivers is the biggest pile in this bracket. This whole bracket is sick and twisted though. I've seen all the movies and I'll post a modest discussion when my bod allows me.

[Tyler1]

I recently saw Vampyr, but I still cant make up my mind if its better than Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the rings. One is about the use of tension and mise-en-scene with the "minimalistic" sets and the inherent limitations of black&white, while the other is CGI loaded, though employed in such a majestic way that its a treat for the eyes. As of now, I'm leaning towards Lord of the rings. I need more time to think about it...

[mark f]

Vampyr is a good film from a Master, should be seen by any serious film buff and far superior to Lugosi's Dracula, but it's not even in his top three films, I believe. TLotR series is one of the few films I can think of which enables CGI to shine (at least more than usual) in a live-action film. That film basically reinvented how to make good popular entertainment which utilizes intense effects and fantasy for a mass audience which shows some taste.

[Tyler1]

Explanations...

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

All Westerns should be like McCabe & Mrs. Miller - without the pretentious Man-with-no-name outcasts, without silly cowboy hats, just European settlers trying to set up shop in the new lands of America. A great deal of effort is spared by Altman to highlight the whore-houses and the lucrative trade of prostitutes, which is something you dont get to see in conventional Westerns that focused more on staged gunfights than substance.

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven


Apparently I'm among the minority who prefer Se7en to Sympathy for mr. Vengeance. No doubt, Sympathy for mr. Vengeance is a great revenge flick by a great Korean director that questions our preconceived notions of good & evil. It's a thinking man's movie, but somehow it got carried away with its over the top brutality and its dark comedy was not to my liking. Se7en, while equally brutal in showing the death scenes, maintained a sense of dread which tightened to the point of suffocation towards the end. It's rare to see a great serial killer movie and Se7en is one of them.

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

I agree with wintertriangles on this one. The Graduate is boring. Kind Hearts and Coronets is one insanely imaginative film based on a completely original premise. Perhaps I should be taking up acting classes.

[honeykid]

That's funny. Even if it's winning so far, Shivers is the biggest pile in this bracket. This whole bracket is sick and twisted though. I've seen all the movies and I'll post a modest discussion when my bod allows me.
Looking forward towards your views when you're up to it, mark. What do you think of Rabid? Those were the two films I picked between for that choice.

[mark f]

Until I see it again, I think that Rabid is probably even more amateurish (maybe I shouldn't use that word in this post) than Shivers. Of course, the way this world has gone topsy-turvy that means it's undoubtedly better now.

An aside considering The Graduate and Kind Hearts: the latter is in my top 100 and Alec Guinness is one of my two fave actors of all-time. I won't be bitchin' much about it winning, but I'm shocked to hear that such young, astute cinematic minds find The Graduate amateurish and boring. It's easily one of the best-directed films ever, with each of the scenes in the first half meticulously conceived, shot and edited and holding up as bravura mini movies. I'll admit that the middle goes a bit overboard with too many Simon and Garfunkel songs, but it certainly rights itself with one of the greatest final five minutes of all-time. I prefer The Graduate but only by a half-popcorn box.

[ash_is_the_gal]

i gotta say, it's pretty neat to read through this thread while i'm watching these films. though i wish some of you guys would use spoiler tags!

[HitchFan97]

I saw The Graduate this weekend, loved it. Probably the best coming-of-age movie I've seen :yup:

[Thursday Next]

1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

I'd be quite happy to see Vampyr win this, since there are some very clever, creepy visual effects that rival those in movies made seventy years later on massive budgets. However, my vote is going to Fellowship, my favourite of the Rings films in this round.


8. Cemetery Man
9. Vertigo

Thank you to whoever nominated Dellamorte Dellamore, I'd never even heard of it before, but it was a lot of fun. There were a couple of bits I didn't like, but all in all I enjoyed the deliciously dark humour; it seemed to fall somewhere in between Brazil and Buffy. And Vertigo is not one of my favourite Hitchcocks.

[ash_is_the_gal]

I saw The Graduate this weekend, loved it. Probably the best coming-of-age movie I've seen :yup:

i watched it this weekend too, but i felt somewhat differently.

[HitchFan97]

i watched it this weekend too, but i felt somewhat differently.

What didn't you like?

[ash_is_the_gal]

i think my copy of Vampyrs i received from Netflix is possessed. i put it in my lap top and it, like, made a bunch of booping noises and then my computer froze. so i put it in my DVD player and after i sat down to start playing, my DVD player slipped and nearly fell off the TV. o.O

[mark f]

I'm confused. The tourney doesn't have a movie called Vampyrs. It does have the 1932 Vampyr, so is that the one possessing your home?

[HollyG]

So Most of these films I have not seen but I'm working on it and once I have watched most of them I will post what I think. I just wanna mention I love movie tournament time because I watch films that I wouldn't pick out my self so I am looking forward to watching alot of these films. :D

[honeykid]

I just wanna mention I love movie tournament time because I watch films that I wouldn't pick out my self so I am looking forward to watching alot of these films. :D
No. Nope. You've lost me. :nope::D

[ash_is_the_gal]

I'm confused. The tourney doesn't have a movie called Vampyrs. It does have the 1932 Vampyr, so is that the one possessing your home?

yes. THE MOVIE MADE ME TYPE IT LIKE THAT http://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gif

[HollyG]

No. Nope. You've lost me. :nope::D

Ha ha I think I am lost myself :) Its been a long day.

[rauldc14]

holy cats I will be able to vote on a couple matchups soon.

[ash_is_the_gal]

i'm so not even close to being done, but i'm going to sort of do this in phases. so here's the first phase with a few personal tidbits. and i think i'll have the rest of these films watched by the weekend. :cool:

1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

this one was super easy, probably the easiest. i mean, i knew i was going to vote for Vampry anyway because in my opinion, it should be called Fellowship of the Meh. ok i'm exaggerating a bit; i actually kinda sorta like Fellowship, but i wish i could unsee the other two.

but enough about that. Vampyr made it so easy because it was absolutely phenomenal. really amazing use of music/sound mixing. creeps were had several times, sometimes in just a facial expression or the turn of someone's head. the atmosphere was also wonderful, incredibly sticky and maleficent, and i thoroughly enjoyed the use of title cards throughout.

8. Cemetary Man [need to see]
9. Vertigo [need to see]

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller [need to see; probably not gonna]
12. Escape from New York [see above]

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

i quite liked The Rules of the Game, actually - it was funny, clever, the characters were actually quite adorable, and the satire was well received. i kept watching it not really knowing whether it was supposed to be a drama or a comedy or a tragedy because it really encompasses all of those things which seems intentional.

anyway, my vote goes to Fantasia. i LOVED this film. it seems so bold by today's standards because the idea of a 2-hour celebration of beautiful, transient animation set to some of the best classical numbers almost sounds suicidal, unfortunately - but there seems no other word more suitable than 'celebration'. if you have any appreciation at all for classical music, you're doing yourself a disservice by not seeing Fantasia. i realize that this is not a Disney film for everyone, but honestly, if you're a Disney fan you have no reason not to see this film - for after seeing it, i honestly feel i have a better understanding of Walt Disney the man, and his ultimate vision.

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

yeah, i.... couldn't get into Shivers very much. i don't know why. it had its funny moments brought on by sheer ridiculousness, but i was pretty over it by the time everything was zeroed in on the condo/apartment place. i probably need to watch it again but i don't really have time right now, because there's way too many movies in this tournament to watch. anyway, for now i'm going with The Truman Show which is fun in a lighthearted, fluff way. plus i enjoy watching the fantasy world that Truman lived in; pretending it could be possible to do, even though i don't see how it could be.

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance [need to see]
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

don't get me wrong, The Graduate is enjoyable enough, but i dunno maybe i was expecting more than i got. it sort of seemed to be... missing something. the best thing about it was the mixture of the soundtrack and the beautiful, long shots. i wasn't as enamoured about Dustin Hoffman as so many seem to be, though. anyway, it wasn't a patch on Kind Hearts and Coronets, which was so much fun to watch. it was original and had a real timeless feel to it. the characters were absolutely horrible people but i reveled in their horribleness for sure. :)

2. I am Love [need to see]
15. Belle de Jour (1967) [need to see]

[Thursday Next]

Just finished watching Sympathy For Mr. Vengeance and I think I'm going to have to sleep on this one. In some ways I think it's superior to Seven but there were a lot of things that annoyed me about it as well. I think the title must be a deliberately provocative choice, since I felt little sympathy for any of the characters by the end.

[wintertriangles]

I think the title must be a deliberately provocative choice, since I felt little sympathy for any of the characters by the end.That's surprising, I'd like to hear your reasons for that after you sleep on it

[mark f]

Mr. Vengeance left me cold. At first I thought it was because all the major plot points occured off-screen, which is similar to a mystery, a la SE7EN, but then when the revenge scenes occurred on-screen, that made me understand that basically the whole story was concocted backwards. The characters seem to be far-less important than the fatalistic plot which in hindsight seems set in stone with no chance for the characters to actually make choices. It's a decent movie, but the equally-fatalistic SE7EN seems far more clever with characters who seem to be able to make choices all the way to the end, and it's that finale which pushes the Fincher film far past a "serial killer" genre film and into something far scarier and unnerving concerning the simple act of human survival.

I will say it's amazing how similar some of the themes are in both films.

[honeykid]

If I get time, I might try and check out "Sympathy" just so I can vote for Se7en, which I probably will seeing as a) it's one of my favourite films and, b) I've tried to watch it before and gave up because I couldn't get into it at all.

[wintertriangles]

Well in your perspective, would that not point towards something far scarier if no one has choices yet seems to think everything they do will lead to something better? It left me cold too, but I still see the question of cosmic dictation vs. free will of (potentially) productive acts intriguing. I'm guessing your reasoning for preferring Se7en ties back with the escapism idea? Can you elaborate about the clever aspects?

I will say it's amazing how similar some of the themes are in both films.I noticed this about a number of the pairs throughout the brackets, I think it helps make for better discussion.

[Deadite]

Same here; I noticed odd connections in the last tournament between pairings that I would normally never have considered on my own which lead to new interesting perspectives on both films. It's a big reason why I enjoy participating. The unusual contrasts and similarities provoke discussion, and unexpected insights may result.

[mark f]

I don't want to spoil it, even if it's too known to be spoiled anymore. Basically, I don't recall a similar type film where the "villain" can arrange to become world famous and destroy everyone, including himself, by fulfilling his plan. I'm sure there are other films with different plots which may ultimately do the same thing, but this one slowly reveals that the "mad plot" and its architect are both razor-sharp in their intentions. Although I wouldn't call SE7EN escapist, I do see it as a "commercial" film, but with far more personality and bravura filmmaking than most. I suppose that makes it more "entertaining".

Mr. Vengeance seems to almost be a La Ronde version of a similar fatalistic plot where the old cliche that "Nobody gets out alive" comes true. In that way, I suppose this film's Asian sensibility somehow blends with a European one too, although I'm not ready to take that any further at this exact moment.

[rauldc14]

8. Cemetery Man
9. Vertigo


Cemetery Man was just downright terrible for me. In all honesty, I haven't seen too many films that were worse. Call me crazy, but that is my opinion. The only thing I appreciated from the movie was the music. When you honestly think about it, the movie makes very little sense at all. A lady walks around on her head, a guy gets medicine shoved into his privates (at least I believed that). I can live with a little silly, but that was overboard. Even for a zombie film I think it went a bit too far, and that really says a lot.

With Vertigo, it's not that I'm a huge fan but I do still appreciate many elements to the movie. The visuals are enough to put it over Cemetery Man alone. The acting was fairly solid, not great for a Hitchcock film but solid. And I think it has potential for repeatability and a chance to becoming an even better film on repeated viewings.

[HitchFan97]

^It does :yup:

[rauldc14]

A little standings update:

Bracket 1
1. Vampyr 6
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring 2

8. Cemetary Man 2
9. Vertigo 4

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller 6
12. Escape from New York 2

4. The Rules of the Game 6
13. Fantasia 2

3. Shivers 4
14. The Truman Show 4

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance 5
11. Seven 3

7. The Graduate 1
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets 8

2. I am Love 3
15. Belle de Jour (1967) 2

[honeykid]

Suprised, but happy to see Vampyr winning at all, let alone with 75%, atm. Stunned that Shivers is going toe-to-toe with The Truman Show. Still don't expect it to win, but it's doing better than I ever thought it would against that film.

[wintertriangles]

Hopefully a few more people join in to maintain the splendid superiority over last tournament

[Deadite]

I certainly wouldn't call Cemetery Man terrible. I liked its bizarre and almost existential style. I would say it's one of the better and most original zombie movies out there. Its emphasis on surreal relationships and situations above conventional zombie gore & scares definitely hurt its mass appeal yet that also makes CM more of an intriguing attempt at making an artistic zombie movie. Many would call it a failure; I think it's modestly more successful than not, but still flawed. It's actually been a few years and I'm curious to watch it again soon.

That said, I obviously don't think it can really compare to Vertigo. I'm actually a bit surprised at how underwhelming Vertigo seems to be for some. It's easily one of Hitchcock's very best, and is another film I intend to re-watch soon.

[honeykid]

There's still a lot of films to be watched. Once people have seen both sides of the match-ups, things could change a lot.

[HitchFan97]

That said, I obviously don't think it can really compare to Vertigo. I'm actually a bit surprised at how underwhelming Vertigo seems to be for some. It's easily one of Hitchcock's very best, and is another film I intend to re-watch soon.

I re-watch Vertigo frequently. I also don't know why so many people are underwhelmed by it; true, it isn't as fast paced as some of Hitchcock's other films (on first viewing, I preferred Psycho and Rear Window), but I still loved the movie. Maybe that's because Vertigo was one of the first truly "great" films I ever saw, but my opinion of it has only increased since then.

[Deadite]

It probably doesn't hurt that it stars one of my all-time favorite actors giving one of his best performances, either. :D

[HitchFan97]

It may very well be my favorite performance EVER, in any film. The only real competition for that title is Anthony Perkins in Psycho (thus begins anew my inner turmoil regarding which of Hitchcock's two greatest masterpieces is the best :D)

[stevo3001]

the two I hadn't already done:

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

[honeykid]

^^See, WT, this is what I'm expecting.^^

[Thursday Next]

That's surprising, I'd like to hear your reasons for that after you sleep on it

*spoilers*

I think Ryu was much more sympathetic than Park. On paper, the man who has lost his daughter ought to be more sympathetic than the girl's kidnapper, but despite his loss I felt very little sympathy for him. He wasn't a good father, he wasn't a good husband, he wasn't a good boss and he visibly betrayed no compassion towards anyone - as illustrated in the scene with the former employee under the car and the cremation scenes. He goes far too far in his desire for revenge. In a way I liked that Ryu was more sympathetic, it made a change from the more traditional revenge movie in which we follow the wronged person and want him to take his revenge on the faceless cruel 'baddies'. But then again, that's exactly what we get with the strand in which Ryu takes revenge on the organ thieves, so it seemed like the film was trying to have it's cake and eat it in that respect.

I didn't feel by the end of the film that I was really rooting for Ryu either. he brought a lot of it on himself through really bad decisions. That everybody was going to die in a brutal manner was so inevitable that I found the last section quite boring, in contrast to the beginning of the film which I really liked -- the quiet scenes had a sort of tension to them because you knew that something was going to go wrong soon. I don't mind violence in films, but I did think some of the scenes were excessively violent in a way that detracted from any emotion or sympathy you might have felt. I liked when Park was sort of beating an unconscious Ryu with his fists, that scene seemed to capture the futility of revenge, and I'd have quite liked if they'd ended it there. When Park says 'you know why I have to kill you' I thought 'yes, but I don't know why you have to butcher him quite like that'. It loses the tension, the feeling of 'something bad/worse might happen', because by that point there's nothing worse that can happen, really.

I found the pace flagged a bit when the film switched to Park's point of view, with him slowly discovering things we already knew. And I didn't like the bit where he overhears the radio, that seemed like bad plotting to me.

It was an interesting film, though, and I'd quite like to watch Seven again before I have to decide between them, although I have too many films in this tournament I haven't seen at all.

[rauldc14]

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

Being the first Renoir film I had ever experienced, I wasn't completely blown away but by, but I've already garnered a lot of respect for the guy. The movie is well put together and well scripted and it lead me on a path where I couldn't really predict what was coming. The ending sure had me hooked.

With Fantasia, it's kind of along the same lines. I have a lot of respect for Walt Disney and this is kind of one of his emblems so to say.

I just think The Rules of the Game has a more dominant impact with Renoir than Fantasia has with Disney.

[wintertriangles]

@ Thursday, I can see where you're coming from in general, except I think your criticisms of Park being a bad father and husband don't really make sense. The scene with the former employee was implicit of him not having a real connection with a lower class but his lack of reaction during the cremation I think was totally normal for someone who clearly doesn't know how to handle a horrible incident. What made you think he was a bad father, or rather worse than any general parent?

As far as Ryu taking revenge on the organ dealers, eh it didn't seem like it was an illogical progression so yeah. But you say you didn't feel like you were rooting for him, yet that's not really the point. You originally said you didn't feel any sympathy for the characters, but why not Ryu? The film doesn't try to make you like them necessarily but the characters are just naive enough and trying to do what's right (in the wrong way, just like most people) that I find it hard to not feel sympathy for them, let alone in an allegorical sense.

Your ending complaint makes sense. One might also view it as the bottom of the pit so to speak and thus the oroborous must be continue, but w/e. I get the feeling you'd not like Lady Vengeance for some of your same reasons.

[rauldc14]

oh and by the way mark, I am eagerly awaiting your votes on the matchups! get better soon (though I don't know if you stated that in this bracket or the other one).

[Thursday Next]

@WT I suppose it's a bit of an assumption that he's a bad father and husband, but it's the one I made from the little information we are given about him. He buys his daughter a mobile phone but doesn't bother to teach her to swim, for example. Your point about the funeral is valid. But really, it's that we don't know anything much about him that makes it difficult to have sympathy for him, he just seemed a bit of a blank.

I did feel sympathy for Ryu throughout a lot of the film, but a lot of what happened was his fault. I don't mean that he deserved to be murdered, but that I didn't care all that much what happened to him by the end - perhaps because he'd done so much wrong and because it was so inevitable. Often in a film you are rooting for the protagonist to achieve their goals/escape death, but I didn't particularly feel this was the case here.

But that's not necessarily a flaw in the film, I think the title really is provoking us to think about who deserves/gets our sympathy and why.

[rauldc14]

i got to check this sympathy for mr. vengeance out this week

[ash_is_the_gal]

i'm so not even close to being done, but i'm going to sort of do this in phases. so here's the first phase with a few personal tidbits. and i think i'll have the rest of these films watched by the weekend. :cool:

here's 'phase 2' which completes bracket 1 for me. decided not to watch the striked out films. sorry to whomever nominated them, too many to watch and not enough time.

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

i won't waste many words on Vertigo, it was brilliant, so even though i voted for it i'm going to briefly discuss this lesser known oddity Cemetary Man. i had never seen either of these movies until this week, and y'know, i nearly almost skipped them entirely because i had very minimal interest in Cemetary Man, but at the last minute i decided i really should watch Vertigo, so whatthehell. anyway... i'm actually glad i did. Cemetary Man probably gets my vote for 'biggest pleasant surprise' in bracket one, because i really enjoyed it. for a zombie movie, i found it refreshingly clever and different, and the dialogue was fun and clever, too. the characters are well-written, the music's good, and yeah basically i liked everything. i knew going in it wasn't going to get my vote over Vertigo, though. sorry honeykid, it's not overrated.

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller [need to see; probably not gonna]
12. Escape from New York [see above]

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

i had to think on this one a bit. i purposely was avoiding the last couple pages of this thread until after i watched Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, and now that i've watched it, i read through these posts and found myself really agreeing with mark and Thursday's point of view on the film. it's odd, but 'sympathy' was about pretty much the opposite to how I felt by the time this movie was finished. i've only seen this and Oldboy, but i'm not sure i can fully get into the intense style that is Chan-wook. however, i think Sympathy gets a slightly higher rating from me because i was able to relate to the characters, whereas with Oldboy i felt complete detachment nearly the whole way through. maybe it's a psychological thing, but the more graphic violence there tends to be, the more detached i tend to feel to the characters/situations, so maybe that's what it really comes down to - at the risk of sounding like a 49-year-old christian women, violence really seems to affect me more than it used to, and with a film like Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, when you're watching all of the main characters die in horrible ways, i found it difficult to feel much of anything except empty towards the end. i wonder if this is because all the characters really felt doomed from the beginning, so there was no sense of intensity or desperation felt, on my behalf, for the well-being of most of the characters.

that being said, the final scenes of the film shocked and saddened me.

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

i watched these two last weekend. it's a crying shame these two had to be matched up, because that means that one of them stops here, and they're both wonderful films that deserve to move on. i'm giving I am Love the vote - easily my favorite watch from the tournament thus far. thank you to whoever nominated it.

[Thursday Next]

I'm glad you enjoyed Cemetery Man, ash, even if you didn't vote for it. It surprised me, too.

What made you pick Sympathy For Mr. Vengeance over Seven, though?

[mark f]

Here are some brief comments about these films. I have more in me, but this is as much as I can do in one sitting.

Bracket 1

Vampyr
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

I mentioned earlier in here that my choice was Fellowship. It's a beautiful intro to the series and is definitely the greenest of the films. Vampyr shows much of Dreyer's primitive passion and is a must-see, especially for those who like creepy movies and big eyes.

Cemetery Man
Vertigo

My pick has been discussed so much that all I'll mention is that this film's technique is probably responsible for Brian DePalma's career. Cemetery Man is a film I recommend. I think it's at least as good as Evil Dead II and Re-Animator. Besides being wild and crazy, it's seriously sexy and has one of the most-bizarre endings ever.

McCabe and Mrs. Miller
Escape from New York

I actually like these movies about the same, but I'll give the edge to Altman's revisionism, although his overlapping dialogue and Leonard Cohen soundtrack are a bit overused. Escape is just a fun, silly, self-aware genre flick.

The Rules of the Game
Fantasia

Rules still turns up on many critics' groups' All-Time Lists, and it's a rite of passage for serious film buffs, but its satire is somewhat obvious now, and I consider Renoir a bit overrated, especially compared to his contemporary Marcel Pagnol. I prefer The Baker's Wife to this one. I picked Fantasia for this tourney, but that's mainly because I wanted people to watch Allegro non troppo and compare it to Fantasia. As it is, the Disney film is beautiful, charming and surprisingly satirical in its own right.

Shivers
The Truman Show

I don't have much to say about Shivers except that it somehow foreshadows AIDS. The film itself is cheap and flat. The Truman Show may seem underdeveloped and old-news today, but it's still intriguing and entertaining. No Contest.

Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
SE7EN

I've already mentioned that I find Sympathy a decent movie worth watching, but it left me cold and made me feel the characters were cyphers. From the chilling library to the constant raining to the shaking apartment and up to the sun-drenched finale, SE7EN is Fincher's best film.

The Graduate
Kind Hearts and Coronets

I love both films; they're both in my Top 100. The Graduate gets my nod though for Mike Nichols' wonderful direction and a solid script which makes you wonder if it's a comedy or a tragedy and whether the ending is hopeful or pathetic. Coronets has the incredible Alec Guinness and features Dennis Price's best performance where he utters the immortal line, "I shot an arrow into the air... she fell to earth in Berkeley Square."

I am Love
Belle de Jour

Look, I like watching Tilda Swinton in the nude as much as the next guy. I also like movies with rustic countrysides and luscious food, but something about Love rubbed me the wrong way in the third act. Belle is a wonderful surreal film with enough apparent plot to get one enthralled and scratching one's head at the same time.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Bracket 1

Vampyr
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

I mentioned earlier in here that my choice was Fellowship. It's a beautiful intro to the series and is definitely the greenest of the films. Vampyr shows much of Dreyer's primitive passion and is a must-see, especially for those who like creepy movies and big eyes.

:kiss::kiss::kiss:

Finally someone voted for my movie instead of that vampire flick nobody's ever heard of.

[wintertriangles]

Finally someone voted for my movie instead of that vampire flick nobody's ever heard of.Must be why it's beating LOTR

[Thursday Next]

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

I did enjoy Escape From New York. It was quite a fun action film and I liked the concept and the 80s-ness of it all, but I thought it didn't really try hard enough to be more than it was, and its not quite in the same league as Terminator or Die Hard. Or McCabe and Mrs Miller, for that matter.

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

Bit of a coin toss, in the end. There's a lot that's good about Sympathy For Mr Vengeance, but I feel slightly warmer toward Seven, on balance.

[rauldc14]

9 days left people. We need a Seven comeback!

[Sexy Celebrity]

Must be why it's beating LOTR

Those voters were drugged.

[Harry Lime]

Bracket 1
1. Vampyr
16. The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

5. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
12. Escape from New York

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

3. Shivers
14. The Truman Show

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

7. The Graduate
10. Kind Hearts and Coronets

2. I am Love
15. Belle de Jour (1967)

[rauldc14]

Couple of potential toss up matchups yet. I've probably got a chance to vote on one more matchup or 2

[rauldc14]

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

Vengeance left me detached from the characters, as ash said. Knowing that bad things were coming made it hard for me to "root" for anything to happen. It did have a lot of great twists to it, but it's just not something that really was for me.

As far as Seven goes, easily one of the best of its kind. It had a villain for the ages, a great storyline, and interesting twists and turns. Great, great film.

[rauldc14]

Voting will end Tuesday, 11:59 Central US Time. There's still a bit of time.

[honeykid]

I'm not going to get Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance seen, but I hope to see Cemetary Man before voting closes.

[linespalsy]

Adding votes.

8. Cemetary Man
9. Vertigo

4. The Rules of the Game
13. Fantasia

6. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
11. Seven

Probably will not see Vampyr tomorrow, unfortunately.

[honeykid]

Not gonna get to see Cemetary Man. :(

[wintertriangles]

I enjoyed Cemetery Man but I feel bad having to vote against it so I won't, it's already getting demolished

[HitchFan97]

Bwahaha yes :drevil:

[honeykid]

I'd have probably voted for it, as I really don't care greatly for Vertigo. Hopefully Se7en can fend off Sympathy, too.

[honeykid]

Cemetary Man

Thanks to TN, I've just finished watching Cemetary Man. It's ok and, while I understand the love for it, it's the kind of thing I get bored with quickly. However, this was the first time I've seen and, as I said, I don't 'get' Vertigo, so I'll give Cemetary Man my vote. Sure, it's not going to matter, but still.

[rauldc14]

Voting is over for this and I will have a final tally-up tomorrow

[rauldc14]

Alright peeps here are the results for Bracket 1 round 1:

Vampyr 7
Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring 3

Cemetary Man 4
Vertigo 7

McCabe and Mrs. Miller 9
Escape from New York 2

Rules of the Game 8
Fantasia 4

Shivers 4
Truman Show 6

Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance 6
Seven 8

The Graduate 2
Kind Hearts and Coronets 9

I am Love 4
Belle de Jour 3



Which sets up these matchups for round 2:
Vampyr vs. Vertigo
McCabe and Mrs. Miller vs. The Rules of the Game
Truman Show vs. Seven
Kind Hearts and Coronets vs. I am Love


All in all the biggest surprise for me was The Graduate not getting much back up, though I haven't seen Kind Hearts and Coronets I expected the match to be just a bit closer.

[mark f]

Sorry lines, but I am Love beating Belle de Jour is ludicrous.

[rauldc14]

I wanted to watch Belle de Jour, but I just didn't have access to it.

[honeykid]

I'm surprised Shivers ran The Truman Show so close. Great to see LotR gone, though. I thought it'd walk it.

[linespalsy]

Sorry lines, but I am Love beating Belle de Jour is ludicrous.

I don't remember sour grapes being one of the dishes in I Am Love, but I must be mistaken.

[mark f]

Agreed.