Israel or the Palestinians: Who do you support?

[MrPink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzvhvOcWEs&feature=player_embedded

Pretty neutral Video showing the conflict in short.

[Yoda]

Israel, but no good will come of this thread.

[MrPink]

Israel, but no good will come of this thread.

if there's 2-3 people open their heads and really try to understand the conflict, it did its job.

[Sedai]

Ah, and when you say open your heads, you mean start thinking like you do?

No thanks.

[MrPink]

Ah, and when you say open your heads, you mean start thinking like you do?

No thanks.

I mean you to think logically, if you are going to hate us, and it is entirely legitimate truth, at least that you provide arguments rather than "you expel Palestinians and killing little children."

But really there no arguments except from "You kill lots of Palestinians and small children." am i right?

[ollanik]

I support Palestinians!

[MrPink]

I support Palestinians!

why?
please explain...

[ollanik]

why?
please explain...

Because it was their land till 1948 for about 1500 years or more.

[Sedai]

I mean you to think logically, if you are going to hate us, and it is entirely legitimate truth, at least that you provide arguments rather than "you expel Palestinians and killing little children."

But really there no arguments except from "You kill lots of Palestinians and small children." am i right?

No, you aren't right.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't ascribe ideas to me that I haven't stated directly myself. Please quote the post in which I said the above things.

You CLEARLY have an agenda here, one that is directly related to your interests and establishing your way of thinking as "correct" when concerned with these matters. Just exactly what do you aim to achieve here?

I dunno man, you are clearly up for an argument, so much so that you IMMEDIATELY inserted a false statement into the conversation after quoting what I actually said, just to argue against a point no one has made.

I say! Good show! :indifferent:

Good day, Sir.

[MrPink]

Because it was their land till 1948 for about 600 years or more.
"their"
Who is "their"?
the Palestinians?
that in fact "appeared" only in 1967, after the Jews have achieved their holy land after 2000 years of exile?

why They did not want their state when the area was controlled by Jordan?
Oh yes, they were slaughtering them without giving a ****.

Israel, who only want an area the size of New Jersey, where she can live in peace after 2000 years in Europe, after 2000 years in which we were expelled from every country there is, 2000 years in which the Arabs somehow got the Land of Israel, and decided that she was "their".

that the Arabs conquered our land, sometime during 2000 years in which the Jewish people could not do anything. Do not make it "their".

[akatemple]

This seems like a really weird and volatile thread for a Movie Forum site, even if it is under the miscellaneous tab.

[MrPink]

You CLEARLY have an agenda here, one that is directly related to your interests and establishing your way of thinking as "correct" when concerned with these matters. Just exactly what do you aim to achieve here?

.
what the forum traing to achieve? What is the achieve of discussion of writing one discussion of discussion of?
what we traing to achieve here?

what I'm trying to get here, that's what people from other countries think of the state where I live?
and, to try to convince them we're right in this conflict, because it just annoys me that the Arabs obtain support for a picture of a child killed (because of them!), or distortion of history (see the guy under you)

[Yoda]

This seems like a really weird and volatile thread for a Movie Forum site, even if it is under the miscellaneous tab.
Dude, we've had tons of threads like this. They've just waned over the last couple of years.

That said, I'm going to issue a blanket warning: if this gets at all ugly, I'm going to close it. I don't want to, and I'd rather everyone discuss this civilly, but I know that's not always plausible. So fair warning in advance that this thread could close without a lot of notice if things get too heated.

[linespalsy]

The "thousands of years ago this land was "ours" therefor it is ours and no-one's else for all eternity" argument is not a very compelling one, and that goes for both sides. I don't know where to draw a clear line or if it's even necessary, but it seems obvious that having a "right" to a place should be based on more than distant ancestry. For that reason I also support Israel's right to exist, since it would be wrong and somewhat arbitrary to throw people out who have been living there for generations.

I just don't for a second buy that this issue is usefully approachable within the reductive framework of one being the innocent victim and the other being the sole aggressor. That's why I can't vote that I blanket support one or the other. In general I support peoples' rights to not be pushed around for opaque legalistic reasons based on nationalist-mythological-racialist authenticity claims. Both have done a lot of pushing and being pushed based on just those sorts of claims.

[honeykid]

"their"
Who is "their"?
the Palestinians?
that in fact "appeared" only in 1967, after the Jews have achieved their holy land after 2000 years of exile?

why They did not want their state when the area was controlled by Jordan?
Oh yes, they were slaughtering them without giving a ****.

Israel, who only want an area the size of New Jersey, where she can live in peace after 2000 years in Europe, after 2000 years in which we were expelled from every country there is, 2000 years in which the Arabs somehow got the Land of Israel, and decided that she was "their".

that the Arabs conquered our land, sometime during 2000 years in which the Jewish people could not do anything. Do not make it "their".
Judeism is a religion. "The Jews" are not a race. "They" have no land. That is all.

[MrPink]

Judeism is a religion. "The Jews" are not a race. "They" have no land. That is all.

what?!?

I do not know how to answer this reaction at all

I am a Jew, I do not believe in God.
That's all.
Judeism it is a race.

[downthesun]

From my experience, the Palestine-Israel conflict is one where people's minds are set on one belief as to who is in the right or wrong and this belief doesn't change, regardless of how much you argue and try to convince them to change their minds.

MrPink from my understanding you live in Isreal so I'd assume you've seen the horrors of this conflict first hand. In the same vein I've met families in the UAE who have had to flee from Palestine who've lost loved ones to the conflict. I know for a fact you will always side with Israel and in the same way all the arabs I have know will always side with Palestine.

I refuse to take sides in this conflict and I'd personally just like to see the whole thing come to an end (wishful thinking I know).

Also, I noticed in another thread, you used a Glen Beck video to try to educate other MoFo users about the conflict, from my own experience viewing Glen Beck material, the guy is a clown and is arguably the least credible individual I have ever seen on TV.

Again, I'm not trying to argue with you and I don't want to turn this into some debate or an educational lesson about who's land it really is. I just wanted to say that I think this thread is going to go nowhere and will only lead to bickering and arguing.

[will.15]

Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state.

The Palestinians have a right to have their own homeland if they agree to peacefully co-exist with their neighbor.

It is impossible for there to be a negotiated setllement with Hamas in the government.

I support the current United States position.

[will.15]

Dude, we've had tons of threads like this. They've just waned over the last couple of years.

That said, I'm going to issue a blanket warning: if this gets at all ugly, I'm going to close it. I don't want to, and I'd rather everyone discuss this civilly, but I know that's not always plausible. So fair warning in advance that this thread could close without a lot of notice if things get too heated.
Wake me up when the fireworks start. So far most of us are fence sitters taking middle of the road positions.

I am refeerring to the posts, not the poll voters.


I just clicked on that video that is supposed to be neutrel. As soon as I saw it was Dennis Prager I clicked it off. What a pompous ass and as neutrel as someone waving a Confederate flag in Harlem.

[will.15]

what?!?

I do not know how to answer this reaction at all

I am a Jew, I do not believe in God.
That's all.
Judeism it is a race.
No, it is not a race because Jews no longer have a racial identity (if they ever had one). I am Jewish (born, not religious) and when I fill out a census form I mark Caucasian for race because there is no box for Jew. Jews have an identity beyond religion, maybe a national identity without an existing nation, or one that didn't exist for a couple thousand years, but it certainly isn't a race.

They were given land through a UN mandate so they have a right to be there, but Israel by occupying Palestinian land that wasn't part of the land they were given is sitting on a powder keg and they are on borrowed time if they can't negotiate a peace. It is probably impossible under current circumstances, but the current Isreali governmnet makes those negotiations more difficult.

[ollanik]

"their"
Who is "their"?
the Palestinians?
that in fact "appeared" only in 1967, after the Jews have achieved their holy land after 2000 years of exile?

why They did not want their state when the area was controlled by Jordan?
Oh yes, they were slaughtering them without giving a ****.

Israel, who only want an area the size of New Jersey, where she can live in peace after 2000 years in Europe, after 2000 years in which we were expelled from every country there is, 2000 years in which the Arabs somehow got the Land of Israel, and decided that she was "their".

that the Arabs conquered our land, sometime during 2000 years in which the Jewish people could not do anything. Do not make it "their".

That is the land of Palestina.It was their for more than thousand of years.When Palestina was formed in 5. century it was violent times.Every country that was formed in that time and earlier was formed in violent way.If you are stonger,you will win,and thats all,no diplomacy,no anything else.Offcourse,that rule exist today in 21. century also,but tool is more money than weapon,but that is other story.So because Israel exist,than every race that still exist that have lost their ,,holy land,, in that time should get their teritorry back.That means that whole ancient map should be back.It is not fair to many other races that have lost their homeland in that way,Indians for example.And many others.And about expelling of Jews from every country in Europe,it is not Palestinian foulth because of that.They are not the ones that should be punished because of that.So,my point is-If some race posses some teritory for such a long time like 15 centuries,that means that it is theirs.Not of the ones before them.

[Tyler1]

On a side note, Waltz With Bashir was good!

http://lechampo.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/waltzbashir.jpg

[zed]

The Israelis have no doubt killed Palestinian children, but what they have never done is deliberately targeted children i.e jumping on a bus full of kids and blowing them up. Perhaps I'd be more sympathetic towards the Palestinians if they weren't so callous and indiscriminate. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Israelis are squeaky clean, but they are the lesser of two evils.

[MrPink]

answers to all:
"Palestina" is the name that the romans give to Israel.
as a way to try and destroy Israel, a group of Jordanians decided to call themselves "Palestinians", to make it look as if they were that their homeland.
Did you know that 70% of Jordanians consider themselves as Palestinians?
Besides, why can not they go to -30,20 countries have been Arabs?
Because it will make them an excuse to resistance "to us.

moreover, the Palestinians said more than once that they did not will recognize us as a Jewish state, ever.
however we do recognize the right of them to state.

to zed - the hamas , the The terrorist organization they chose him govern them, hiding rockets, guns, bombs, etc. in schools, at UN, homes of civilians.
The IDF, which is without doubt the most moral army in the world, even photographing the Palestinians (sending rockets on civilians in ads) as proof. there such a thing in the world?

We're bombing because we we have no choice, we are a modern country , democratic, we do not kill gays and we do not force anybody to our beliefs. We can not allow that citizens will have every day to run the shelter, so we bomb Kiss schools full of terror, then we will bomb the peace organization (yeah right) of the un from which rockets were sent every day
We suffered more in 2000 early year, now we have one of the strongest armies in in the world, and we leave this earth in our hands, even if it means some future terrorists will die.

to tyler , yea Waltz With Bashir is very good.

[ollanik]

The Israelis have no doubt killed Palestinian children, but what they have never done is deliberately targeted children i.e jumping on a bus full of kids and blowing them up. Perhaps I'd be more sympathetic towards the Palestinians if they weren't so callous and indiscriminate. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Israelis are squeaky clean, but they are the lesser of two evils.

What is your source of informations?News on TV?

[ollanik]

now we have one of the strongest armies in in the world, and we leave this earth in our hands

One more reason to be against Israel and support Palestina.

[will.15]

I don't support suicide bombers.

[wintertriangles]

Oh cool another thread promoting segregation way to go

[zed]

One more reason to be against Israel and support Palestina.

There would be a lot more support for Palestine if they didn't target innocent children. Do you really think that if there is a god out there he's going to be welcoming these suicide bombers into heaven with open arms? This conflict has been going on for decades, Palestine has achieved nothing, other than further alienating them from the rest of the world. They have lost a lot of support and neutral supporters have been swayed onto the Israeli side, because of the atrocities they have committed - not against Israeli soldiers, but against women and children. I'm not pro Israeli or anti Palestine, I'm anti kids getting their f*ing legs blown off. You may argue Israel are guilty of killing women and children, possibly, but Palestine have turned it into a national past time. This conflict has parallels with the Northern Ireland conflict. Something that started out as a cause, descended into an open season slaughter of innocent women and children. And if the PLO continue with this as their MO, they'll go the same way the IRA did.

[ollanik]

There would be a lot more support for Palestine if they didn't target innocent children. Do you really think that if there is a god out there he's going to be welcoming these suicide bombers into heaven with open arms? This conflict has been going on for decades, Palestine has achieved nothing, other than further alienating them from the rest of the world. They have lost a lot of support and neutral supporters have been swayed onto the Israeli side, because of the atrocities they have committed - not against Israeli soldiers, but against women and children. I'm not pro Israeli or anti Palestine, I'm anti kids getting their f*ing legs blown off. You may argue Israel are guilty of killing women and children, possibly, but Palestine have turned it into a national past time. This conflict has parallels with the Northern Ireland conflict. Something that started out as a cause, descended into an open season slaughter of innocent women and children. And if the PLO continue with this as their MO, they'll go the same way the IRA did.

Every sentence in your post is nonsense,i dont know even where to start...first of all,dont put words i did not said.I never said that i think there is god who will be welcoming suicide bombers into heaven with open arm.That is just stupid,i dont believe in god and i dont support killings.That is just your patetic way to make me look like that,because clearly you have not any arguments.But only stupid person could buy that c*ap anyway.In order to have discussion with me,you wont put words in my text i havent said,just because it appeared like that to you.That is your problem that you see world in black and white.

Black and white,because situation is far much more complicated that you say.First i refuse to believe that Palestinians killed more civilians than Israelis.I think it was equal.Do you know how many killings media hidding or just dont know about them in wars?Do you know how many massacres in Balkan wars that happend in the 90s are hidden and discovered late?Do you know how many generals admit things that they did when they are dying or they are just gone crazy and cant keep that and admit everything that happened?I know how it was...Serbian media was hidding Serbian crimes,Croatian and Bosniaks was hidding their crimes,Albanians theirs...everyone was hidding their crimes and expose enemies crimes.Than world media choose what to expose from that.I just know that every wars and comflicts are functioning in that way.World media also pick sides,whose crimes to expose and whose not,world media will never say the entire truth,depending on what side correspond to their country political autority.Not just that,media also cant catch everything that is happening...And yes,do you know how many masacres happened as long ago as WW2 and was discovered in 21. century.Media is not valid sourse of informations,and what you said sounded so brainwashed by media...

Even if media is right,that isnt valid argument...who killed more children,or less are not argument at all...generals who did that,presidents,politicans,they are the ones to be blamed for that,not people.You know,you cant do wrong thing,and use exuses that someone did worse.

Now i hope that is clear to you about that killing of civilians now.

And you know,i wasnt even mentioning that in my previous post what you replied.I was saying that because Israel have one of the stongest armies and world in their hands are even one more big reason to support Palestinians.I dont want anyone to rule this world and have world in their hands.I will allways be against the ones who rule the world.And you replied to me with tottaly different story,how dare you.

[will.15]

Israel is hardlly in a position to rule the world.

[ollanik]

Israel is very powerful puppet state of NATO and EU,so they can do whatever they want and get away with that.

[zed]

Even if media is right,that isnt valid argument...who killed more children,or less are not argument at all...generals who did that,presidents,politicans,they are the ones to be blamed for that,not people.You know,you cant do wrong thing,and use exuses that someone did worse.I'm aware that not all media is to be believed, but when you have the Israelis reporting 30 children have been blown up AND THEN the perpetrators (The PLO) contacting the press admitting they did, you tend to believe the reports. In fact it's common practice for terror organisations such as the PLO IRA, ETA etc to take responsibility for bombings, killings etc as it raises their international profile and keeps their name in the press. And yours and every other pro-Palestinians arguments is the same - people criticise the PLO for their atrocities and the response is "oh well Israel bomb us, so it's ok for us to kill their children".... That is very warped logic. If Israel are such a bad country for killing innocent people, then how are Palestine not bad for doing the same thing? So your argument is this - one country is bad for killing people, the other country is not bad for killing people.. please explain??

[ollanik]

So your argument is this - one country is bad for killing people, the other country is not bad for killing people.. please explain??


There are 2 options:

1-You are trolling.
2-You are incredibly stupid.

[zed]

There are 2 options:

1-You are trolling.
2-You are incredibly stupid.

Well lets just assume the latter. Explain it to me like I'm stupid. Explain to me how someone with half a brain can criticize one country for slaughtering innocent women and children whilst defending another country for doing the same thing. I've noticed that you refuse to answer any of my questions, so please humour me and at least try and attempt to answer them.

[ollanik]

I answered your question and even more allready.I answered you more that you can even ask.But you didnt understud a thing clearly,and you are back again asking me same stupid pointless question.I dont think you are trol,you are just stupid.

[zed]

I can't even be insulted by your comments, they make absolutely no sense! :p

[ollanik]

They dont make sence to you,because you are too stupid.Enjoy in your stupdity,i wont bother you.

[zed]

They dont make sence to you,because you are too stupid.Enjoy in your stupdity,i wont bother you.

You are one of Gods special children. Always remember that when people are mean to you.

[ollanik]

Why are you waiting for me to go offline to post something? Say whatever you want,you are not able for any discussion,and now you are defending yourself using kindergarden jokes...i should release that before even bother replying to you.You have no arguments in discussion,you have nothing.Say to me whatever you want,your stupidity wont go away.

[mark f]

This topic is far more complex than most people are willing to accept, and this post violates my vow to stay out of these threads. I think most people have a political agenda which basically supports what they believe or makes it OK to not express an opinion. I really don't understand why the "Israelis" and the "Palestinians" should both not be able to live in peace in a close proximity to each other, but then again, that's not true. Israel and Palestine or whatever you want to call the area are a basic microcosm for all the world's problems which never seem to be able to go away. The truth is that these problems have existed for millenia and not something closer to 60 years. Hate and conflict are here to stay no matter whether you want to admit that it has a part in your world or not. Humans will always hate and fight, no matter whether you believe in a God or not. You may believe that you are living in a wonderful, advanced world but you would be in denial. I realize this post offers no solutions except perhaps to realize that when you look in the mirror and tell yourself how good you are, that there is somebody else who believes the exact opposite as you who does the same thing. Does that make you enemies or somehow kindred humans?

As far as terrorism goes, I probably shouldn't mention this after trying to be some phony peacemaker, but the State of Israel was born out of terrorism in the 1940s. There may have been many terorist groups in the location circa 1948, but some of them were certainly Jewish. There are plenty of books on the subject, so I'm not trying to open any eyes unless you're perpetually sleepy and need to be awakened. Personally, I believe that the Jews constitute a race, but if Jews are not a race, are Palestinians also not a race? They are both Semites.

[will.15]

Jews are no longer uniformly Semites. Only those who never left the Middle East are Semites.

[MrPink]

Israel is very powerful puppet state of NATO and EU,so they can do whatever they want and get away with that.


Sorry to say, but by the things you say you do not quite understand about it.
I'm sure that if any European country or the United States, and certainly Russia, was in a situation where Israel is, that means terrorists in broth of 2 kilometers and missiles that fall at least twice a week, she was doing exactly what we do, it says - to defend the country.

And because we have army on of the strongest, with thousands of tanks and aircraft, and the Palestinians have. So we can not defend the country? That's what you're saying?
Excuse me sir, you're an idiot who thinks because he is against killing civilians "innocent" then it is more humane and better than others.
Terrorists
Another thing, terrorists believe they were born to destroy Israel, the U.S. and other countries that comply with Islamic law (but especially in Israel and the U.S.), and of course even if they are "innocent".

Did you ever hear any suicide bombers?
Before we built the West Bank barrier at least two week explode in buses, entertainment venues, restaurants and more. From 2000 to 2005 if you get on the bus in Israel, you should take into consideration that can be die there.

Now tell me, it is possible to live like this?
The only way not to live like that is if we bomb them and will continue to build fences, even if it means on YouTube dumb kid we called "the real terrorist state Israel".

[MrPink]

This topic is far more complex than most people are willing to accept, and this post violates my vow to stay out of these threads. I think most people have a political agenda which basically supports what they believe or makes it OK to not express an opinion. I really don't understand why the "Israelis" and the "Palestinians" should both not be able to live in peace in a close proximity to each other, but then again, that's not true. Israel and Palestine or whatever you want to call the area are a basic microcosm for all the world's problems which never seem to be able to go away. The truth is that these problems have existed for millenia and not something closer to 60 years. Hate and conflict are here to stay no matter whether you want to admit that it has a part in your world or not. Humans will always hate and fight, no matter whether you believe in a God or not. You may believe that you are living in a wonderful, advanced world but you would be in denial. I realize this post offers no solutions except perhaps to realize that when you look in the mirror and tell yourself how good you are, that there is somebody else who believes the exact opposite as you who does the same thing. Does that make you enemies or somehow kindred humans?

As far as terrorism goes, I probably shouldn't mention this after trying to be some phony peacemaker, but the State of Israel was born out of terrorism in the 1940s. There may have been many terorist groups in the location circa 1948, but some of them were certainly Jewish. There are plenty of books on the subject, so I'm not trying to open any eyes unless you're perpetually sleepy and need to be awakened. Personally, I believe that the Jews constitute a race, but if Jews are not a race, are Palestinians also not a race? They are both Semites.

Nonsense!
Military organizations the establishment of Israel (the Palmach, Nir, etc.) did not harm civilians! Certainly not on purpose! And certainly must not explode them in restaurants!
They also Nlhno British, but did not harm civilians. That's what makes the difference between terrorists and combatants.

[ollanik]

Sorry to say, but by the things you say you do not quite understand about it.
I'm sure that if any European country or United States, and certainly Russia, was in a situation where Israel is, that means terrorists in broth of 2 kilometers and missiles that fall at least twice a week, she was doing exactly what we do, it says - to defend the country.

USA was never in that situation...Russia also very rare.You picked wrong examples,but i get your point.I know how it is when terrorists in broth of 2 kilometers and missiles that fall at least twice a week.I was a kid than,and i didnt even care that much,i played with my friends,while bombs where falling.You know,i am from Serbia,you should check a little about that online,period 1991-1999,and than ask me again do i know how it is...so i know how it all works.And about defending a country,you should defend your country,if someone is attactking her,i agree.But,your country is formed on territory of another country,so that other country is in position to defend theirself.My advice to you is that i think Israel-Palestina conflict is endless,and i dont see it will ever end.Maybe you should consider leaving that horrible place in the future.Tell me,is it like that since begginig?But i see also that you are too much of a nationalist.I dont blame you,situation your country is in,does really make people fanatics.


And because we have army on of the strongest, with thousands of tanks and aircraft, and the Palestinians have. So we can not defend the country? That's what you're saying?
Excuse me sir, you're an idiot who thinks because he is against killing civilians "innocent" then it is more humane and better than others.
Terrorists
Another thing, terrorists believe they were born to destroy Israel, the U.S. and other countries that comply with Islamic law (but especially in Israel and the U.S.), and of course even if they are "innocent".


I say again,defend your people.Offcourse you can defend your people,but when you sad that Israel hold world in their hands with one of the strongest armies,that gave me one more big reason to be against Israel.I dont have anything against Israeli people,but i am really against politicans of Israel.That is a huge diffrence.And i never sad it is ok for Palestinians to kill and i dont want to justify myself for things i never said.

Did you ever hear any suicide bombers?
Before we built the West Bank barrier at least two week explode in buses, entertainment venues, restaurants and more. From 2000 to 2005 if you get on the bus in Israel, you should take into consideration that can be die there.

That is really horrible.But still it has nothing to do with anything i said...


Now tell me, it is possible to live like this?
The only way not to live like that is if we bomb them and will continue to build fences, even if it means on YouTube dumb kid we called "the real terrorist state Israel".

Bombing someone will not solve any problem.You are too brainwashed to realise that your politicans are using your people like figures,brainwashing them with propaganda and everything.Palestinian politicans do that to with their people also in the same way.Every politicans in the world do that,but in conflict and wars,it comes to maximum.There is no future in Israel,my suggestion to you is to clear your head,and leave all that behind you.While Israel and Palestitian presidents,probubly shake their hands whenever they see each other,their nations are fighting.But,you cant think with clear head in this situation,i undersand that,people here in Balkan countries,were also brainwashed by their politican in the 90s,and when it was all over,everyone(at least smart people) released how foolish we were for believing them.

[MrPink]

I have no energy to answer you now about this, but I just say one thing.
Yes you had a very similar problem, conquered the land of the Indians, and Tbhtm them.
And all this without having had the historical ownership of the place, such as Um Jews in Israel.
I know these were dark times and no where to to make.
Just presenting a point.

[ollanik]

Yes you had a very similar problem, conquered the land of the Indians, and Tbhtm them.


WTF?!What does Serbia has to do with Indians???Are you kidding me?

[zed]

WTF?!What does Serbia has to do with Indians???Are you kidding me?

If you don't know the answer to that question, you are a bigger idiot than I thought.

[ollanik]

If you don't know the answer to that question, you are a bigger idiot than I thought.

You tell me,what does Serbia has to do with Indians?

[ollanik]

Come on,if you find any link of any site or historical evidence that Serbians did anything to Indians,i will say that i am biggest idiot in this world,and i will never post here again.

[zed]

To the biggest idiot in the world,

here is the link you requested:

http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/india-stand-united-against-serbia--1300575/1/20

regards

Zed

[Harry Lime]

To the biggest idiot in the world,

here is the link you requested:

http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/india-stand-united-against-serbia--1300575/1/20

regards

Zed

Canada stands with you!

[ollanik]

Online strategy game is really the best historical evidence that can be.Bravo.

[Harry Lime]

Online strategy game is really the best historical evidence that can be.Bravo.
Maybe he works for erepublik and this is some master-spamming?

[ollanik]

Maybe he works for erepublik and this is some master-spamming?

No,he is just a moron,thats all.

[zed]

Online strategy game is really the best historical evidence that can be.Bravo.

Read your post moron.

,if you find any link of any site or historical evidence that Serbians did anything to Indians,.

any site OR historical evidence. This website comes under the classification of 'any site'. You sir have yet again, proved to me that you are without doubt the most stupid person that has ever blessed this earth. They should create a new state called IdiotLand and make you king. Ollanik King of all idiots.

[ollanik]

Read your post moron.



any site OR historical evidence. This website comes under the classification of 'any site'. You sir have yet again, proved to me that you are without doubt the most stupid person that has ever blessed this earth. They should create a new state called IdiotLand and make you king. Ollanik King of all idiots.

I cant be biggest idiot,when you are alive.

[will.15]

idiot-land

http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=e46dcb5a5d9502214edaafcc4c7a01ea&default=http://fyrfli.net/imgs/fyrfli-grapes-with-ribbon.png http://blog.fyrfli.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/idiot_test-300x260.jpg

[zed]

Hey! It's King Ollanik!! :D:D:D





Idiot Land

http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=e46dcb5a5d9502214edaafcc4c7a01ea&default=http://fyrfli.net/imgs/fyrfli-grapes-with-ribbon.png http://blog.fyrfli.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/idiot_test-300x260.jpg

[will.15]

Are there any Palestinians there?

[ollanik]

zed,you failed so hard on so many levels...maybe you should learn first that Indians are from America,not India...but putting a link of erepublik is fail enough.

[zed]

Are there any Palestinians there?

Yes there are. Actually there are many nationalities present in Idiotland, all handpicked because of their sheer stupidity and King Ollanik ruling over them.

[ollanik]

This is hilarious!!! I am still laughing how hard you failed !

[Harry Lime]

...maybe you should learn first that Indians are from America,not India...

Actually, that's wrong. Still, why are you even bothering with this ass-clown?

[zed]

yawn.

[ollanik]

Actually, that's wrong. Still, why are you even bothering with this ass-clown?

Because he is so funny failing all the time.I edited this post,because it was too cruel to him,my parents teached me not to make fun of people like him.

[zed]

Because he is so funny failing all the time.I edited this post,because it was too cruel to him,my parents teached me not to make fun of people like him.


:p Well they didn't do a very good job did they BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH :D:D:D:D

[ollanik]

:p Well they didn't do a very good job did they BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH :D:D:D:D

Will someone ban this idot?He dont bring anything useful to discussion,he is only here to spam with his moronic comments.He is clearly not able for any type of discussion,especially when it is about serious subject like this.I dont know how moron like him even know how to use internet.

Now i want to continue discussing about this trheat.

This threat spread hate to Palestinians.Clear propaganda.Maybe it wouldnt be so awful that opener of this threat was someone who is neutral.But opener of this,MrPink is some internet warrior kid,who would **** his pants that he had to go in real war,and he is here on foreign site selling propaganda and hate towards Palestina.MrPink,what are you tripping you are?Some kind of educator or something?Not to mention your pathetic avoidance of my arguments with lame ,,i have no energy to anwer all that,,.You fanatic nationalist,you narcistic pathetic kid,you want some kind of decoration,medal of honor or something,you want from us to say,,oh look at him,he loves his country so much,awww,how cute,,...pathetic threat opened by a pathetic kid.

[wintertriangles]

You said thiszed,you failed so hard on so many levels...Then you said this
maybe you should learn first that Indians are from America,not IndiaAre you serious? Only 5th graders get this wrong. Americans inaccurately label Native Americans as Indians because the stupid European colonists thought they were in India.

[Sedai]

I got that one wrong in the 4th grade...I was kind of ahead of my class and stuff.

And no, I am not banning someone because another member disagrees with them. However, This thread is JUST about to get closed, because it has veered off course in exactly the way some of us predicted, like these threads do so very often.

If you like, you can create an "I know you are but what am I?" thread in the Miscellaneous section and have at it!

Let's get back on topic, or what's left of the topic, anyway.

[DexterRiley]

Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state.

The Palestinians have a right to have their own homeland if they agree to peacefully co-exist with their neighbor.

It is impossible for there to be a negotiated setllement with Hamas in the government.

I support the current United States position.

Shouldnt the USA arm the palestinians to the teeth as well then?

For a country taht is in crisis mode defecit wise, they sure do spend a lotta dough on israel.

I think it comes down to whether you subscribe to the fairytale of the end of days or not.

[DexterRiley]

This being a movie site, hows a bout a documentary to perhaps shed a bit of light and provide an understanding of sorts.

http://www.haro-online.com/stuff/peacepro.jpg

Peace, Prosperity, and the Promised Land

Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land provides a striking comparison of U.S. and international media coverage of the crisis in the Middle ... all » East, zeroing in on how structural distortions in U.S. coverage have reinforced false perceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This pivotal documentary exposes how the foreign policy interests of American political elites--oil, and a need to have a secure military base in the region, among others--work in combination with Israeli public relations strategies to exercise a powerful influence over how news from the region is reported.

Through the voices of scholars, media critics, peace activists, religious figures, and Middle East experts, Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land carefully analyzes and explains how--through the use of language, framing and context--the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza remains hidden in the news media, and Israeli colonization of the occupied terrorities appears to be a defensive move rather than an offensive one.

The documentary also explores the ways that U.S. journalists, for reasons ranging from intimidation to a lack of thorough investigation, have become complicit in carrying out Israel's PR campaign. At its core, the documentary raises questions about the ethics and role of journalism, and the relationship between media and politics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4

[DexterRiley]

The Israelis have no doubt killed Palestinian children, but what they have never done is deliberately targeted children i.e jumping on a bus full of kids and blowing them up. Perhaps I'd be more sympathetic towards the Palestinians if they weren't so callous and indiscriminate. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Israelis are squeaky clean, but they are the lesser of two evils.

From 2006, Galloway breaks it down about as well as i've seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imAvXIm_iuw&feature=related

[ollanik]

You said thisThen you said this
Are you serious? Only 5th graders get this wrong. Americans inaccurately label Native Americans as Indians because the stupid European colonists thought they were in India.

In my native languge,Indians are Native Americans,Indian people are Indus or something like that when translate on english.I thouth in every language are.But,whatever,MrPink did meant on Native Americans,when he said to me ,,you conquered the land of the Indians,,.Offcourse he meant on Native Americans,not Indians from India.

[ollanik]

And no, I am not banning someone because another member disagrees with them .

Why are you putting words in my text i never said...i never said i want to be banned someone who disagree with me.I just want to discuss here with normally,not to play with person who dont use any arguments,dont react on arguments,only spam with stupid comments and trying to provoke reaction...

[Nausicaä]

Are you serious? Only 5th graders get this wrong. Americans inaccurately label Native Americans as Indians because the stupid European colonists thought they were in India.


I've been on various indian reservations when in America and stayed weeks around them, it's perfectly acceptable to use the word indian depending where you are. Where I stayed, they prefered it over 'Native American'...

[Sedai]

Why are you putting words in my text i never said...i never said i want to be banned someone who disagree with me.I just want to discuss here with normally,not to play with person who don't use any arguments,dont react on arguments,only spam with stupid comments and trying to provoke reaction...

That text you quoted is from my post, not yours. I didn't "put words in your text".

Did I quote you? I don't see a quote anywhere in my previous post...

Ah, that's because I didn't quote you at all...

But thanks for the negative rep, nonetheless...

Oh, you're losing this debate - badly. Just thought you should know. :)

[ollanik]

That text you quoted is from my post, not yours. I didn't "put words in your text".

Did I quote you? I don't see a quote anywhere in my previous post...

Ah, that's because I didn't quote you at all...

But thanks for the negative rep, nonetheless...

Oh, you're losing this debate - badly. Just thought you should know. :)

How im i losing this debate?Badly??Could you be more specific?I proved my point in every post.I thouth you was talking about me in your post,so thats why i gave you negative rep.But who cares about that anywhay,give negative rep to every my post,if you are want,because i really dont care about that.But you cant say i am losing this debate,no one havent prove that i am wrong in anything i said here...

[will.15]

There is still a serious debate going on here? I thought this had become a fun and games thread.

[Sedai]

How im i losing this debate?Badly??Could you be more specific?I proved my point in every post.I thouth you was talking about me in your post,so thats why i gave you negative rep.But who cares about that anywhay,give negative rep to every my post,if you are want,because i really dont care about that.But you cant say i am losing this debate,no one havent prove that i am wrong in anything i said here...

Yeah, no big deal on the rep, but I wasn't going after you in my original post. I was simply trying to keep the thread at least somewhat on topic, as I saw the thread deteriorating into name calling a foolishness.

The thing about the debate: There isn't one. Not one I can see anyway. I don't see an accurate way to debate on the intentions of entire nation states at this point without a tremendous amount of study on the issues at hand.

When I said you were losing, it's because everyone is this thread is losing, because the discussion is going nowhere, fast.

[Godoggo]

If you like, you can create an "I know you are but what am I?" thread in the Miscellaneous section and have at it!

I can't believe that thread doesn't already exist.

[zed]

I can't believe that thread doesn't already exist.

ha ha - go for it!

[DexterRiley]

When I said you were losing, it's because everyone is this thread is losing, because the discussion is going nowhere, fast.

if we're all in the same boat, can we be characterized as everybody is winning?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMxUfJwdxZk

[Deadite]

I always thought the jews had some weird sort of mass religious identity (more extreme than someone simply claiming membership to a religion such as Christianity) which is the impetus for their political existence. No offense though, just seems (from my understanding) that the hardcore jewish nationalists are more akin to a bizarre cult that got too big rather than a proper country.

[zed]

It strikes me as ironic these religious fanatics fighting for whatever cause they're fighting for with such wanton violence and indiscriminate killings, I'm guessing the irony is lost on them.

[gandalf26]

From 2006, Galloway breaks it down about as well as i've seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imAvXIm_iuw&feature=related

Galloway on fine form there. Bet he won't be appearing on Sky News re Israel anytime soon. The news anchor doesn't even respond to any of his comments, all she says is hmmm, and they moves on to the next hilariously one sided propaganda question in favour of Israel. The last comment is the most important, we don't hear about the family of 7 blown up by an Israeli battleship, all we hear about is the handful of Israeli soldiers. Just like Iraq, its all about 3000 US soldiers killed and not the estimated 1,000,000 dead due to the invasion. Our media makes me truly sick, it's basically rascist saying our soldiers life is more valuable than an Iraqi civilians life whilst any footballer who utters a rascist remark is totally condemned.

[matt72582]

I'm glad I belong to neither group! Not that it would disqualify those who fall under one of the two. But usually, it's conformity... People should define themselves as who they are, each person is a race in my mind. Religion or nationality tells me nothing about a person. You tell me your Top 10, and I know something about you.

Truth - wherever it lays, lays. No one should be afraid to voice their opinion. Let's get this discussion dissected until we DO agree. We break it down until there are no questions left unanswered. Ugh. I almost don't to post this, because a certain response will require a 5-page reply or no reply at all- this topic shouldn't even be discussed, that's how distracted everyone's become. This should have never been settled, because it should have never came to 1948. It should never have come to this!

I have a problem with anyone being called "God's chosen people" - we can't use religion, especially considering the societies are secular.

Then we're in 1948, three years after the Holocaust, when WWII ends. The Palestinians were not responsible. Their own state should have been created in Europe using land occupied by Nazi Germany. Just use logic whenever necessary.

Look at the casualty count - Almost 90% of casualties are Palestinians. They will trade their strap-on-bombs and sorry assed projectiles for an undisclosed amount of nuclear weapons, I guess #2. The U.S. - the most strongest nation have supported them since the creation because they created it with the British, while Russian got what they wanted for taking the most responsibility, and shedding more blood. The U.S. came years later, like a stock market, and their air coverage helped, but the 2 WMD dropped on Japan ended the war.

Back to the Palestinians and Israelis. It's like the little brother who lived at home his entire life then sees he has a new older step-brother who pushes him out of his space. The little group punched the older one, but it didn't hurt that bad. So the older brother uses that justification to beat him up non-stop.

[Yoda]

The little group punched the older one, but it didn't hurt that bad.
This strikes me as a bad analogy to describe fatal terrorist attacks.

The analogy would also benefit from something about how the little brother is almost invariably instigating the fights, and sporadically threatens to outright murder him by saying he has no right to exist at all.

[matt72582]

Israel has existed since 1948... This is a red herring, a duck blind. Just the term "right to exist" has had so much overkill. It's a distraction. Keep on the offensive, and keep the "opponent" on the defense. The truth is that Palestine doesn't exist and cannot exist. The settlements never end, and the people in Gaza are slaves in their own city.

We just heard Netanyahu warn his citizens that the Arabs in Israel were voting, and that he was against a 2-state solution when he spent years lying. Even the U.S. "said" they need to re-evaluate their relationship with Israel, which is more of a warning than anything.

I don't see the status quo working to curb the violence. If generations of young people have their mothers and fathers killed, the vengeance will continue to grow. Death is not a way of life.

[Yoda]

Israel has existed since 1948
And it's been under attack for exactly as long.

This is a red herring, a duck blind. Just the term "right to exist" has had so much overkill. It's a distraction.
It's a distraction when the people trying to kill you are constantly saying you have no right to exist?

Keep on the offensive, and keep the "opponent" on the defense. The truth is that Palestine doesn't exist and cannot exist. The settlements never end, and the people in Gaza are slaves in their own city.
This might have something to do with the many times land was handed over and then used as a staging ground for more attacks.

Deals were in place very early on, as well. They were pretty much entirely rejected by the surrounding Arab nations. There's basically zero evidence in the historical record that a peaceful compromise will be acceptable to most of the region's actors.

[matt72582]

Again, in every conflict, 90% of the casualties are Palestinians. The last conflict was even worse. I think 3 civilians were Israeli's, and over a thousand were Palestinians. If a Palestinian man blows himself up with 2-3 Israeli's, the response is to kill hundreds of civilians.

[Yoda]

Leaving aside the literal accuracy of that (which I'm fairly sure is questionable), how is it a response to anything I just said? Do you think having more casualties automatically makes someone right? Is there a magic number that, once hit, somehow changes the fact that previous concessions have been met with more violence, or that significant actors in the conflict have threatened to eradicate the entire nation? Seems to me that those intentions count for something, even if they've been unable to follow through on them.

[matt72582]

What about my first response? I wrote quite a bit. The Palestinians weren't responsible for the Holocaust.

Eradicate the whole nation.. With what? Israel has nuclear weapons, the Palestinians have projectiles that go about 20 km.

[Yoda]

What about my first response? I wrote quite a bit.
That you did, but as far as I can see none of it really answers the questions I'm asking now.

The Palestinians weren't responsible for the Holocaust.
Meaning Israel has no right to the land, and thus doesn't have a right to exist?

Eradicate the whole nation.. With what? Israel has nuclear weapons, the Palestinians have projectiles that go about 20 km.
See, this is one of my biggest issues with these arguments: why should their inability to "wipe Israel from the map" be taken as a point in their favor? If someone wanted to murder you and the only thing stopping them was they didn't have the right weapon, would you consider them harmless? What happens when they get it? Why should having insufficient military strength absolve someone of using what they have responsibly?

Try a thought experiment: turn your statements into recommendations. Palestinians cannot currently destroy Israel...meaning what? What conclusion about each side's behavior do you actually draw from this fact? Because I suspect the journey between stating these facts and actually recommending a course of action based on them is where things will break down. Because they don't seem like facts about how to guide behavior--they seem like facts designed to curry political favor or garner sympathy. Which isn't the same thing.

[donniedarko]

Judeism is a religion. "The Jews" are not a race. "They" have no land. That is all.

It's both actually

[donniedarko]

What about my first response? I wrote quite a bit. The Palestinians weren't responsible for the Holocaust.

Eradicate the whole nation.. With what? Israel has nuclear weapons, the Palestinians have projectiles that go about 20 km.

Now switch the two. Do you really think there would be an Israeli state?

[Yoda]

That's always been one of the better arguments I've heard: some variation of "if the Palestinians put down their weapons today there would be peace. If Israel put down its weapons there would be no more Israel."

[ashdoc]

i support israel . indian jews who have migrated to israel remain a strong bond of connection between india and israel . unlike jews who migrated to israel from other countries , jews who migrated from india to israel have happy memories of india and they visit india regularly . they faced no persecution when they used to live in india .

today israel is one of the biggest suppliers of military equipment to india , and both countries face the common challenge of islamic fundamentalism . the election of a hindu nationalist govt has galvanized the ties between the two countries as hindu nationalists have been the biggest admirers of israel .

[donniedarko]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/194482#.VTlvIfnZg-V

More rockets. Who's instigating again?

I swear A peace treaty with these people might as well be used as toilet paper

[Pippo]

I voted for Israel, not because they really deserve the vote but because I couldn't choose I don't have an opinion while I do have one, I actually support no one of them but if I had to choose I'd of course go for Israel.

If you listen to what the majority of Palestinians say is that if they had the power they would kill every Israeli and Jew in this planet, Mothers, children & soldiers, it's actually not just the majority of Palestinians, It's the majority of Arabs and Muslims, I know this because I live in this area and I've been living here since I was born.

Now to think about about, Israel actually have the power, are thew doing what Palestinians would do to them if they had the power?? NO

[Pippo]

here's a nice 15 minutes audio clip of Sam Harris talking about the subject
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX-UPcrejHc
please listen to it

[Zotis]

I suppose the topic is interesting, but I suck at debating so I'm not even going to try. I always take things personally in debate, like straw man arguments and taking my words out of context make me think the opponent is insulting my intelligence. I also have a tendency to declare my speculation as fact and then go look for some confirmation bias, or read a wikipedia article and then act like I know everything about it. I can tell a lot of other people make these mistakes too, so it's like two ignorant people arguing pointlessly about something they know practically nothing about. I personally am just trying not to do that anymore.

If someone knows a good documentary on the topic, as opposed to a short youtube video, I would be interested in that.

[matt72582]

Here's a documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0kgG1_6Qn0

[90sAce]

Israel, as in I support their right to exist there, not necessarily all of their military and political actions. And definitely prefer there being a modern nation in the Middle East over another conservative Muslim state. Unfortunately especially in the us there are a lot of right-wingers who'll blindly support Israel just for religious reasons, not to mention slightly cultish reasons (ex. believing the state of Israel has something to do with a 'doomsday prophecy' in Revelation).

Even 'if' land was seized unjustly from Palestine back in the day, Israel's been there long enough that I think they have a claim to existence now regardless of what "shouldn't have happened" back then - I mean pretty much no one thinks it was "good" for the European colonists to steal Native Americans' land back in the day, but that doesn't mean that in the 21st century all whites should move back to Europe and "give America back to the Indians".

Or what about Aussies - should they move back to England and "give it back" to the Aboriginies? There are a lot of other cases where the claim could be made - Israel is just the one that's popular to talk about right now.

I also don't jump on board with the portrayal of Palestinians as just being peace loving "noble savages" with the only agenda being reclaiming their land from the evil Israeli empire - given conservative Islam's treatment of infidels elsewhere in the world.

[donniedarko]

Here's a documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0kgG1_6Qn0

He asked for a good one.

[Cobpyth]

here's a nice 15 minutes audio clip of Sam Harris talking about the subject
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX-UPcrejHc
please listen to it

:up:

[matt72582]

He asked for a good one.

What do you object to? I'm sure you didn't even listen.. Knee-jerk reaction?

[Cobpyth]

What do you object to? I'm sure you didn't even listen.. Knee-jerk reaction?

There's always one flaw in Chomsky's analysis of wars and international conflicts and that is that he never seems prepared to even consider that "the West" (and Israel) can ever have any kind of morally acceptable intentions when they go to war or commit an act of violence towards another nation. He always offers one side of the story. He doesn't seem interested in the big picture, the actual moral balance.

Chomsky is a genius in many ways, but he's too predictably one-sided when it comes to foreign politics, in my opinion. We need voices like him, though. It's important to reflect on the things he exposes.

[90sAce]

There's always one flaw in Chomsky's analysis of wars and international conflicts and that is that he never seems prepared to even consider that "the West" (and Israel) can ever have any kind of morally acceptable intentions when they go to war or commit an act of violence towards another nation. He always offers one side of the story. He doesn't seem interested in the big picture, the actual moral balance.

Chomsky is a genius in many ways, but he's too predictably one-sided when it comes to foreign politics, in my opinion. We need voices like him, though. It's important to reflect on the things he exposes.
Chomsky's very far left; and I'm pretty sure he's on the "Israelis should pack up and move back to Europe" side of the spectrum - I'd rather see an objective documentary which just presents the raw facts, than one promoting an agenda.

I think Israel and Palestine should both have their own states and end the conflict. Problem is there are radicals in Palestine like Hamas terrorists who want to completely destroy Israel, and mainstream Palestinians should condemn them and disassociate from them.

[donniedarko]

What do you object to? I'm sure you didn't even listen.. Knee-jerk reaction?

Here's a good informative documentary on the Holocaust

https://youtu.be/eMYAjyW1OFU

[matt72582]

Chomsky's very far left; and I'm pretty sure he's on the "Israelis should pack up and move back to Europe" side of the spectrum - I'd rather see an objective documentary which just presents the raw facts, than one promoting an agenda.

I think Israel and Palestine should both have their own states and end the conflict. Problem is there are radicals in Palestine like Hamas terrorists who want to completely destroy Israel, and mainstream Palestinians should condemn them and disassociate from them.


"Far-left" - it's like you've already dismissed the guy. He considers himself a libertarian socialist. But those are just labels too. Using the red-scare menace tactics isn't a defense, McCarthyism. You should criticize him for anything he's wrong about, just one issue.

Let's talk specifics and facts. Tell me one thing in that documentary that's false.

[90sAce]

"Far-left" - it's like you've already dismissed the guy. He considers himself a libertarian socialist. But those are just labels too. Using the red-scare menace tactics isn't a defense, McCarthyism.
McCarthyism is trying to 'expose' people as 'closet commies' - he's a libertarian socialist like you said, which is an off-shoot of communism, so he's an open communist - maybe not a Stalinist or Maoist type of communist but the shoe still fits

[christine]

Here's a good informative documentary on the Holocaust

https://youtu.be/eMYAjyW1OFU

I don't follow. Why are you posting this?

[90sAce]

I don't follow. Why are you posting this?
For sarcastic purposes

[matt72582]

McCarthyism is trying to 'expose' people as 'closet commies' - he's a libertarian socialist like you said, which is an off-shoot of communism, so he's an open communist - maybe not a Stalinist or Maoist type of communist but the shoe still fits

No he's not... That's very far off. When people agree with him, they call him a libertarian socialist anarchist. When someone doesn't like what he says, they throw that communist crap.

These labels are silly anyway.. They are absolute, and I don't someone can be a fit-all-shoo-in for every issue.

The USSR were state capitalists, China has more of a "free-market" than the US does. Again, every system is a balance of a public and private, the key is where do the tax dollars go, where does the balance lean towards? Necessities, or other escapades...

[matt72582]

Out of the many labels people use, why don't people ever call Noam Chomsky a Jew?

He is, but if you read his books, articles, he's not really concerned about where the wind blows. He's very academic, very good at selecting his sources, puts things in context, uses common sense and logic.

[christine]

For sarcastic purposes

ok I see.

[Choo Yao Chuen]

I support both to make peace and stop the war!

[90sAce]

No he's not... That's very far off. When people agree with him, they call him a libertarian socialist anarchist. When someone doesn't like what he says, they throw that communist crap.

These labels are silly anyway.. They are absolute, and I don't someone can be a fit-all-shoo-in for every issue.

The USSR were state capitalists, China has more of a "free-market" than the US does. Again, every system is a balance of a public and private, the key is where do the tax dollars go, where does the balance lean towards? Necessities, or other escapades...
Wow, Stalin was a free market extremist the entire time and managed to fool everyone, who'd have thunk it?

[Cobpyth]

Out of the many labels people use, why don't people ever call Noam Chomsky a Jew?

He is, but if you read his books, articles, he's not really concerned about where the wind blows. He's very academic, very good at selecting his sources, puts things in context, uses common sense and logic.

What do you think of the criticism against his reasoning that I expressed earlier, Matt?

[matt72582]

Wow, Stalin was a free market extremist the entire time and managed to fool everyone, who'd have thunk it?

Stalin was a dictator.. His only ideology was power..

[matt72582]

What do you think of the criticism against his reasoning that I expressed earlier, Matt?

He doesn't ever say the US and/or the West have no good intentions. He's a critic, so he's going to talk about atrocities all over the world. You won't hear him talk about two neighboring countries getting along together.

[Cobpyth]

He doesn't ever say the US and/or the West have no good intentions.

You should listen to more of his speeches/read more of his writings then, because he actually says that a lot.

In some cases he's right of course. "Our" intentions aren't always good (history proves that for sure), but that doesn't mean they're always bad or morally unacceptable either.

He's a critic, so he's going to talk about atrocities all over the world. You won't hear him talk about two neighboring countries getting along together.

The thing is that he only talks about the atrocities "we" (Western society and its allies) commit. It seems like he thinks we can only judge ourselves and that we shouldn't care about what everyone else is doing. This way of thinking may fit his "libertarian socialist anarchist" agenda, but it doesn't serve as a balanced approach to foreign politics at all, in my opinion.

Of course I think it's really important to self-reflect constantly, but you can't just turn a blind eye to the atrocities that are committed by others. It has to be taken into account. The ideal of "peace forever" means very little when you're under attack.

He's interesting as a kind of "Utopian" thinker, but in practice I don't think his naively idealistic opinions about foreign politics hold up. He refuses to look at the big picture.

[matt72582]

I've read and seen a lot of criticism of Russia... And, he actually praises the West, and America in general when it comes to speech. Says the US isn't oppressed like some other people think, then will talk an hour about atrocities in African and Asian countries..

But obviously, the stuff that's going to be popular are the criticisms of America, because that's what people want to see - be on Youtube, or a Western television set, because most of us are in the West.

I don't know about the utopia - he never really makes suggestions, he just states things that happen, but doesn't say "This is how things should be" - and in fact, he's very open to e-mails, I've been e-mailing him for over 7 years, about politics and linguistics.

[matt72582]

And in recent history, the wars have been waged by America - the war in Iraq ranks up there with Vietnam, so he shouldn't avoid it because he's an American, or because he's Jewish (his father wrote a book about Hebrew)..

I find him more neutral than most people. And when asked about the JFK assassination, he states inconsistencies, but says very carefully there is no proof of a conspiracy, whether its JFK, or 9/11.

[ashdoc]

https://youtu.be/GeIlehAc060

[ashdoc]

https://youtu.be/Gd1wAGYpv0Y

[ashdoc]

https://youtu.be/9hdG1aXlExI

[ashdoc]

https://youtu.be/qVM6x4BechI

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

George Galloway gives us his honest opinion of one of the most hated Zionist media whores in Britian. This is pure gold.:laugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a35-TJwfdWA

[donniedarko]

German Judge Rules Anti-Zionist is code for Anti-Semite (http://www.timesofisrael.com/german-judge-rules-anti-zionism-is-code-for-anti-semitism/)

And frankly I agree, frankly Zionism is just The belief that Jews should have their own nation. And I can't see a reason to be against that, unless it's a hate for the Jewish people.

“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism,”
Martin Luther King Jr

[90sAce]

German Judge Rules Anti-Zionist is code for Anti-Semite (http://www.timesofisrael.com/german-judge-rules-anti-zionism-is-code-for-anti-semitism/)

And frankly I agree, frankly Zionism is just The belief that Jews should have their own nation. And I can't see a reason to be against that, unless it's a hate for the Jewish people.

“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism,”
Martin Luther King Jr
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, since Jews are an ethnicity, not a nation or government.

Not to mention it's only the hardliners who want to eliminate the nation of Israel; but there are other legitimate concerns about Israel's foreign policy - branding any criticism of the Israeli state as "anti-Semitism" just seems like an easy way to censor any criticism.

[donniedarko]

Not at all what I'm saying, but "anti zionism" means you're against a Jewish state, and the fact that Jews are an ethnicity all the more relevant. In no way would I say a criticism of the Israeli government or Netanyahu anti-semetic. But once you say you're against a Jewish state I don't see any ulterior motive.

[Camo]

Not that I disagree but "anti-zionism", could just as easily refer to being against the way the state is run as there being a state at all.

[Pussy Galore]

I disagree Donnie because zionism emerged at a time where the territory they wanted was occupied by the ottoman empire. Later the state of Israel was created (after WW2) and that's the problem. You have a whole religion of people who have been exterminated in Europe (the jews) and the palestinian who see their territory being reduced drastically for no reason. And as the year goes by the influence of Israel grows bigger and bigger because they are a richer country that is absurd. We created a conflict in 1948 by creating the state of Israel andnow there seems to be no solution bu warfare because (I talk from experience of talking with lots of friends) muslims says that the jews are horrible people ad blablabla and jews are saying the same thing. It's not important to know who's fault is it, but to solve the problem. The american government is a joke in international politics by blindly encouraging Israel without acknowledging the wrong they are doing, they just want the stronger country in the middle east as an ally. (the canadian conservative government is not better)


I noticed that around the world the left supports the palestinians and the right supports Israel that shows how we are dumb. We continue to create separaton between each other and we hide behind ideology to justify warfare and terror...

[hello101]

I find it odd that the Arab/Muslim world is so heavily gunning for Israel to go to the Palestinians whilst at the same time denying Kurds their own state (despite being a much larger minority).

[Pussy Galore]

I find it odd that you regroup the whole arab/muslim world as one coherent entity. Turkey deny Kurds their own states, as they deny the existence of the armenian genocide (like the USA btw). You can't make such a bold statement, the arab/muslim world is large and vast in opinions.


I'd add that whether or not they recognize the Kurds their state does not prove them right or wrong in their conflict agains't the israelians.

[hello101]

I reckon they're most likely to agree on the same topics, more so than Europe or the Americas.

[Nausicaä]

George Galloway gives us his honest opinion of one of the most hated Zionist media whores in Britian. This is pure gold.He lost his seat in the elections last week, was so happy to see they got him out of Bradford. :dizzy::laugh:

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

And frankly I agree, frankly Zionism is just The belief that Jews should have their own nation. And I can't see a reason to be against that, unless it's a hate for the Jewish people.

Please tell me you're not that naive. Since Herzl and Marx started this supremacist agenda to insidiously undermine civilization "Zionism", how many millions of people have died so they can achieve it. Anyone who spouts the word "antisemitism" as soon as someone criticizes the Jews, either watch the news to much, or are completely historically ignorant. This is a people who over the course of the last 2000 years, have been exiled from practically every nation on earth, because of this agenda which they still pursue today.

[Cobpyth]

This is a people who over the course of the last 2000 years, have been exiled from practically every nation on earth, because of this agenda which they still pursue today.

Which agenda?

[donniedarko]

. This is a people who over the course of the last 2000 years, have been exiled from practically every nation on earth, because of this agenda which they still pursue today.

I think this little statement more or less proves my point.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk9C_5CICiU

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82svQGBlY08

[90sAce]

Sci Fi Slob's comment about the Jews isn't totally accurate; they've been persecuted throughout history for a variety of reasons - probably the biggest is simply that the early Catholic Church blamed them for "killing Christ".

Hitler also more or less used them as his 'boogeyman' simply because they were a popular source of resentment during his era.

[donniedarko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfN2IvnIA4M

[Matteo]

I support humanity.

Israel have committed various atrocities and constantly violate international law and UN charters. In saying that, the elites behind the Palestinian cause are no saints. They are the recipient of excessive funding from both the Iranian and Syrian regimes, known for their ardent aversion towards Jews. Conversely, the Israeli government are the recipient of excessive funding from Western regimes, mostly the US, where Israeli lobby groups essentially dictate US foreign policy in Western Asia. Many of these groups also pursue a zealous and fervent disinclination towards Arabs.

The only innocent people here are the ordinary civilians, both of whom are Jews and Palestinians. They're victims of two aggressive governments, controlled by sociopathic elitists with their own iniquitous agendas.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

This video pretty much sums up the Jews and their false claims to territory that was never theirs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1FB_sB2XdI

[donniedarko]

"the jews"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Chomsky.jpg

http://image.almanar.com.lb/english/edimg/2013/Middle_East/Palestine/Palestine_Day/Eslam/Norman-Finkelstein.jpg

[ashdoc]

india refuses to vote against Israel . Al jazeera calls it 'India Israel romance ' :highfive:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2015/07/israel-india-gaza-150709005707545.html

[donniedarko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35eEljsSQfc

[Captain Steel]

I like juice!

[Don Schneider]

If no one else has posted this on this thread heretofore, this is a must see to really explain the root of this intractable conflict…from The Onion:

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/video/onion-explains-israeli-palestinian-conflict-150300708.html

[ynwtf]

^ I really hate to lol at that, but.... lol?

[Zotis]

I'm still going through the thread, but I appreciate the videos people have been posting. It's been helping me develop a larger grasp of the situation, although I still feel like I have a long way to go before I can form a solid opinion. I watched a short documentary on the Six Day War, and another documentary on the Lebanon war. I also watched about five videos so far that were posted in this thread. George Galloway makes a lot of interesting points, but I also don't think I agree with a lot of what he says. I need to learn more about England's involvement, because I really don't have context for the arguments between him and the Israeli general who's name I can not confirm the spelling of. So far though I am in support of Israel.

Israel is not perfect, and their faults are used to accuse them, but every nation has it's fair share of corruption and there is plenty of blame to go around. I don't think the accusations against Israel are a fair reason to destroy them, or expel them from the land. It makes sense to me that America would support Israel, because America is a Christian nation. Christianity and Judaism share a common bond, the Old Testament (Torah) Scriptures are identical, and they worship the same God, but they also have their differences over the nature of Jesus and the New Testament Scriptures (Gospels and Apostolic Letters). Both religions are benevolent, upholding love for their fellow man and moral uprightness above legalistic imposing of rules and regulations (although many members will still be legalistic because humans are flawed and do not always interpret things accurately). Islam on the other hand, according to what I've read of the English translation of the Quran I have sitting on my shelf at home, encourages violence and is explicitly clear that Jews and Christians are to be killed as well as other so-called Muslims who do not fully uphold the teachings of the Quran. What we would consider nominal members of their religion, are the so-called false members, and the fanatics are the ones who actually strive to uphold the teachings of the Quran, and they are terrorists. That is why there is not only so much violence and hatred from Islamic extremists towards Jews, Christians, other religions, and secular people, but there is also much violence among themselves. And if you look at their culture and the state of Islamic nations, there is a lot of oppression, women don't have rights, homosexuals are murdered, and other religions are persecuted. Look at all of the terrorist bombings in European nations that have invited so many Islamic refugees, such as France. But I do have one question concerning this. Why do we not have such bombings here in Canada? They attacked the World Trade Center twice, first in 1993, and again in 2001. Why do they attack America, but not Canada? Also I would like to point out that war in the Middle East has been going on since the Crusades, and the first Crusade was a response to Islamic aggression, it was a counter-attack. This war has been going on for almost 1,000 years.

There is a lot about the politics of the situation that I don't understand yet. There have been all kinds of leaks of emails from government officials and high-ranking members of the American government, military, and secret services, as well as millions of documents from the FBI, CIA, NSA, and other intelligence organisations revealing corruption in the American government. And Trump is a wild card. We know from the email leaks that Clinton supported Trump as a means of stealing votes from Sanders, and he was such a buffoon that they thought there was no way he could win. The Democrats were blindsided. We know from Trump's leaked emails that he has connections with organised crime. It has also been revealed that a large portion of the American government is working very hard to stop Trump from working together with Russia to resolve the situation in the Middle East. Part of the way they're trying to stop his is by smearing him in the media to turn public opinion against him. The American economy is built on war. They spend most of their money on expanding their military. They want the war to continue. There are so many people with billions of dollars, and groups with trillions of dollars in assets on the line over this situation, there is a horrific amount of corruption going on. I mean, these people will go to any means necessary to ensure their continued power and wealth, they spy on everyone, they have completely corrupted the justice system, and they have no qualms about killing people and ruining people's lives for exposing their corruption, and for knowing too much about their secrets. I don't think this situation is just about Israel and Palestine, I think this is a global situation. And I have no idea what is going to happen next.

For those who are against Israel, I have some questions. Why doesn't Israel deserve to keep the land they now occupy, have fought for, have worked hard to build up, are established in, and have claim to which extends back to ancient times? What reason is there not to let the Jews have this very tiny piece of land for their own when there is plenty of land for everyone? Why not let the Palestinians settle somewhere else? What do you want to happen to Israel, are you advocating their destruction, or relocation? And if relocation, then to where?

I would like to learn more about the history of Israel, and the history of the Middle East. If anyone has more videos about it, please share them.

I have recently been watching documentaries, interviews, and videos about Edward Snowden who leaked approximately a million NSA documents exposing corruption in the American government, Thomas Drake, a former NSA director who exposed corruption concerning 911 and the American Government's surveillance programs, Anonymous, Aaron Swartz, and other hackers. I've also watched a documentary on Mao, and watched speeches by Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Churchill, and Roosevelt. Seeing how evil dictators rise to power and manipulate the masses with false ideals, deception, and divide and conquer strategies is quite frightening. And the conversations that I've been having with people in person here in Canada... it is crazy how people adopt these flawed ideologies and take up the wrong side of the struggle for freedom and justice.

I really want to learn more about all of these things so that I can grow and help make the world a better place. There is far too much corruption in our governments and our legal systems, our privacy is completely invaded, and our freedoms are at great risk. Right now in Canada there is a lot going on with changes being made to the Human Rights laws, and freedom of speech is in great danger.

[Don Schneider]

Israel, but no good will come of this thread.

Yes. This is not directed at you, only your astute observation at the onset of this thread.

In 1947, in the wake of the Holocaust, the United Nations gave the Jewish people a tiny postage stamp-sized strip of land in their own ancestral homeland. Apparently, even that was too much for the land rich, oil drenched Arabic nations of the Arabic conquests (which few ever discuss in this context as it is most decidedly not in their interest to do so), holding a combined area that dwarfed (and still dwarfs) the then fledgling Jewish homeland. (Golda Meir once quipped: “It took Moses forty years to find the only place in the Middle East that has no oil!) Therefore, in 1948 on the very next day after Israel declared herself an independent nation in accordance with the 1947 U.N. resolution, the combined might of several Arab nations attacked Israel with the goal of eliminating her as a nation. They got a surprise.

Once again in 1967, under the leadership of the dictatorial president of Egypt, Gamal Nasser, a pan-Arabic tyrant dreaming of an Arabic empire with him as its head, decided to try again. He closed the Straights of Tiran through which over ninety percent of Israel’s oil imports passed. (Israel had stated that such an act would be casus belli). He then marshaled his forces in the Sinai pursuant to an intended attack with the objective being to eliminate Israel as a nation. The then king of Saudi Arabia outright stated that and which is recorded for the record. Once again, however, the plucky Jews gave them a nasty surprise. Even after the IDF had effectively defeated Egypt, the Israelis informed the then young King of Jordan, Hussein, that if Jordan would stay in place so would Israel. He declined the offer and attacked Israel through the West Bank which he claimed title to as it had in effect been a no man’s land since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1922. (There never was a “Palestinian” nation or even a recognized Palestinian ethnic group distinct from Syrians (South Syrians) even before the advent of the Zionist movement.) The IDF advanced to meet the attack and drove the Jordanian forces across the Jordan River. This is how we got into the situation where we are today. If the Arabs would have accepted the 1947 U.N. resolution, then Israel would still be in her original, postage stamp-sized nation. Israel has been amazingly restrained in her response to these attempts to annihilate her!

Wars, like elections, have consequences. If one can’t live with the consequences of potential defeat on the battlefield, then don’t go invading one’s neighbors in an attempt to annihilate them. According to all the anti-Semitic, Israel bashers, Israel is presumably supposed to simply sit back and wait for her enemies next go at it, Arabic dictators and monarchs with nothing to lose but men and weaponry which can be replaced in time?

Those who oppose Israel notwithstanding these historical facts are anti-Semites. How could they not be when they give aid and comfort to the terrorist organization Hamas which states quite openly and clearly within their founding charter (or covenant) that their goal is the kill all Jews—not just Israeli Jews (as if that would be acceptable)—and not be anti-Semitic? Why else would the political left give aid and comfort to the most reactionary forces on Earth, the most extreme of which dream of returning to the Arabic Middle Ages, where women are treated as property of their fathers and then husbands notwithstanding their professed reverence of liberal human rights? Where is their professed concern for homosexuals within contemporary Muslim societies where at best they are treated as pariahs and at worst persecuted and executed? What other motivation could they have but anti-Semitism? Jerusalem is the City of David not Mohammed who never even visited it!

[Don Schneider]

German Judge Rules Anti-Zionist is code for Anti-Semite (http://www.timesofisrael.com/german-judge-rules-anti-zionism-is-code-for-anti-semitism/)

And frankly I agree, frankly Zionism is just The belief that Jews should have their own nation. And I can't see a reason to be against that, unless it's a hate for the Jewish people.

“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism,”
Martin Luther King Jr

Hear! Hear!

[Don Schneider]

I support humanity.

Israel have committed various atrocities and constantly violate international law and UN charters.

Like when the Arabic nations attacked Israel in 1948, the very next day after she declared her independence in accordance with the 1947 U.N. resolution supported by (wonders of wonders!) both the U.S and the USSR in an attempt to annihilate her? How can you or any seriously talk about Israel's alleged violations of U.N. resolutions when the Arabs wouldn’t accept the original one which is the basis for this entire conflict?

[Dani8]

I support humanity as well, Matteo

https://www.israeltoday.co.il/Portals/0//news/140911_soccer.jpg

[Don Schneider]

Berlin, July 31, 1941

To Gruppenführer Heydrich:

Supplementing the task assigned to you by the decree of January 24, 1939, to solve the Jewish problem by means of emigration and evacuation in the best possible way according to present conditions, I hereby charge you to carry out preparations as regards organizational, financial, and material matters for a total solution (Gesamtlösung) of the Jewish question in all the territories of Europe under German occupation.

Where the competency of other central organizations touches on this matter, these organizations are to collaborate.

I charge you further to submit to me as soon as possible a general plan of the administrative material and financial measures necessary for carrying out the desired final solution (Endlösung) of the Jewish question.

Göring

What other reason is needed to support Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people?

[Zotis]

Well said Don Schneider.

[Don Schneider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82svQGBlY08

You seriously position “Gorgeous George” Galloway, the political buffoon and clown prince of politics, in support of your views? What a laugh. This is how he earned his colorful sobriquet:

“He was asked about a conference in Mykonos in Greece and replied: 'I travelled and spent lots of time with people in Greece, many of whom were women, some of whom were known carnally to me. I actually had sexual intercourse with some of the people in Greece.'

"That earned him the sobriquet “Gorgeous George” and put him on all the front pages.”

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/general-election/from-big-brother-to-bradford-colourful-life-of-gorgeous-george-galloway-1-4401566

He’s the man whom David Cameron characterized as: “Never having met an Arab dictator he didn’t like.”

He told that notable humanitarian beacon of light, Saddam Hussein: “Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2966199.stm

He’s a rabid socialist who enjoys the high life, seemingly out of proportion to his income.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396358/Socialist-MP-George-Galloway-puts-house-market-1-5million--600-cent-mark-paid-it.html

He was expelled from the Labour Party in 2003 being even too radical for them, not to mention an embarrassment.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/oct/23/labour.georgegalloway

He later became an MP for a heavily Islamic district, forming a new party and remained so until even they tired of his antics.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/george-galloway-facing-defeat-as-tactics-backfire-in-bradford-10234486.html

His anti-Israel tirades have become the stuff of legend, more burlesque than serious politics.

Aside from his aforementioned dalliances with Greek women, he’s been married four times… so far.

Let all reading here observe from whence you and your ilk derive your support and judge for themselves.

[Don Schneider]

Well said Don Schneider.


Thank you and here is my Parthian shot:

To all terrorist abetting, Israel bashing anti-Semites, listen to this and understand. After well nigh two millennia of discrimination and persecution only culminating in the Holocaust—when a modern, industrialized, supposedly civilized nation set up murder factories (murder factories!) to kill virtually any Jew they could get their hands on—, the Jews have reclaimed their ancestral homeland and have their own nation now and the chutzpah to defend her. If you can’t find any Gypsies to pick on where you live, then go pull wings off flies. You can’t castrate Jews anymore. Get used to it and move on. Never again!

By the way, I’m a simon-pure gentile (German/ Irish/Catholic). One doesn’t have to be Jewish to discern the stench of anti-Semitism. It is difficult to believe that we are even having this discussion. They couldn’t even have the decency to wait until the last Holocaust survivor has drawn his or her last breath.

[FromBeyond]

Israel

You seriously position “Gorgeous George” Galloway, the political buffoon and clown prince of politics, in support of your views? What a laugh. This is how he earned his colorful sobriquet:

“He was asked about a conference in Mykonos in Greece and replied: “I travelled and spent lots of time with people in Greece, many of whom were women, some of whom were known carnally to me. I actually had sexual intercourse with some of the people in Greece.”

That earned him the sobriquet “Gorgeous George” and put him on all the front pages.”

He’s the man whom David Cameron characterized as: “Never having met an Arab dictator he didn’t like.”

He told that notable humanitarian beacon of light, Saddam Hussein: “Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability"

He’s a rabid socialist who enjoys the high life, seemingly out of proportion to his income.

He was expelled from the Labour Party in 2003 being even too radical for them, not to mention an embarrassment.

He later became an MP for a heavily Islamic district, forming a new party and remained so until even they tired of his antics.

His anti-Israel tirades have become the stuff of legend, more burlesque than serious politics.

Aside from his aforementioned dalliances with Greek women, he’s been married four times… so far.

Let all reading here observe from whence you and your ilk derive your support and judge for themselves.

just wanted to add.. he is also the man who pretended to be a cat on reality television.

[Equilibrium]

Palestine, without reservation.

For me its a simple fact, before 1948 it was Palestine and palestinians lived there. After 1948-->renamed to Israel and former inhabitants kicked out.

[Don Schneider]

Palestine, without reservation.

For me its a simple fact, before 1948 it was Palestine and palestinians lived there. After 1948-->renamed to Israel and former inhabitants kicked out.

“Palestine” was the name given to the region by the ancient Romans. After one too many revolts by the Jews, they were forced out after the Romans made the land inhospitable for them.

Did you ever look at a map of the ponderous (oil drenched) land mass now occupied by Arabs? Since the Arabs originated in the Arabian Peninsular (now called Saudi Arabia), how did they come to occupy such a great area? With a Koran in one hand and a sword in the other! Yet you begrudge this tiny area to the Jews in their own ancestral homeland after two millennia of persecution culminating in an attempt to annihilate them? Such hypocrisy!

[Zotis]

Wow, is George Galloway really such a villain? Some of what he said made me think of him as intelligent, at least in the video of his radio broadcast, but in the other video with the Israeli general I could not agree with him.

[Captain Steel]

Thank you and here is my Parthian shot:

To all terrorist abetting, Israel bashing anti-Semites, listen to this and understand. After well nigh two millennia of discrimination and persecution only culminating in the Holocaust—when a modern, industrialized, supposedly civilized nation set up murder factories (murder factories!) to kill virtually any Jew they could get their hands on—, the Jews have reclaimed their ancestral homeland and have their own nation now and the chutzpah to defend her. If you can’t find any Gypsies to pick on where you live, then go pull wings off flies. You can’t castrate Jews anymore. Get used to it and move on. Never again!

By the way, I’m a simon-pure gentile (German/ Irish/Catholic). One doesn’t have to be Jewish to discern the stench of anti-Semitism. It is difficult to believe that we are even having this discussion. They couldn’t even have the decency to wait until the last Holocaust survivor has drawn his or her last breath.

The discussion continues because the world has been infected with the mind disease called Political Correctness - it makes those indoctrinated in its camp incapable of discerning good from evil or viewing history from an informed, factual or objective perspective.

[Dani8]

To all terrorist abetting,

If you can’t find any Gypsies to pick on where you live, then go pull wings off flies. You can’t castrate Jews anymore. Get used to it and move on. Never again!

By the way, I’m a simon-pure gentile (German/ Irish/Catholic).

What does any of that even mean?

Who is a terrorist abetter/abettor?

Who picks on Gypsies?

Why would someone torture an insect because they don't pick a side which is pretty infantile, to be honest.

I have Jewish lineage on my matriarchal side. Should I go and kick a kitten for not picking a side other than the side of humankind?

As for your comment that people can't castrate Jews any more - WTF? Who is castrating anyone?

[Equilibrium]

“Palestine” was the name given to the region by the ancient Romans. After one too many revolts by the Jews, they were forced out after the Romans made the land inhospitable for them.

Did you ever look at a map of the ponderous (oil drenched) land mass now occupied by Arabs? Since the Arabs originated in the Arabian Peninsular (now called Saudi Arabia), how did they come to occupy such a great area? With a Koran in one hand and a sword in the other! Yet you begrudge this tiny area to the Jews in their own ancestral homeland after two millennia of persecution culminating in an attempt to annihilate them? Such hypocrisy!

The real hypocrisy is that if native Americans came back to take America no one would "begrudge them this tiny piece of land".

Give me a break and don't play semantics with me. Palestinians, rock worshippers, Muslims, use whatever name you like but you do not get to kick out people from their home because your ancestors used to live there 2000 years ago.

[Powdered Water]

What kind of thread is this?

[Zotis]

The real hypocrisy is that if native Americans came back to take America no one would "begrudge them this tiny piece of land".

Give me a break and don't play semantics with me. Palestinians, rock worshippers, Muslims, use whatever name you like but you do not get to kick out people from their home because your ancestors used to live there 2000 years ago.
If native Americans suddenly got together to take from America a portion of land they had particular claim to (as apposed to simply saying all of the Americas belonged to them) and declared their independence it would be another story.

They get to kick people out of their home for the same reasons people got to kick them out in the first place if nothing else.

If you think it absurd to give natives a piece of their land back because it was occupied in the past, but no longer, then why don't you extend that courtesy to the Jews? You criticise the Jews for taking their landback, but would support the Palestinians in taking it back only on the grounds that they occupied it in the past. You honor the Palestinians claim to the territory because they occupied it previously, but do not acknowledge any Jewish claim by the same right. It is just a double standard.

[Don Schneider]

What does any of that even mean?

Who is a terrorist abetter/abettor?

Who picks on Gypsies?

Why would someone torture an insect because they don't pick a side which is pretty infantile, to be honest.

I have Jewish lineage on my matriarchal side. Should I go and kick a kitten for not picking a side other than the side of humankind?

As for your comment that people can't castrate Jews any more - WTF? Who is castrating anyone?

If you don’t recognize the remarks about Gypsies and insects as biting sarcasm, then I’ll inform you now that that was what it was.

If you don’t recognize the allusion to the castration of Jews, then perhaps you should study more 20th century history. It wasn’t all that long ago.

Jews can finally defend themselves within a national homeland, and that irks a whole lot of malevolent creatures posing as human beings. Jews have finally learned that when up against it, they can count on no one but themselves. To that I say: Hear! Hear! and wish them well.

As far as terrorist-abettors, once again Hamas, a designated terrorist organization that openly avows the destruction of all Jewry, were freely elected by the people of Gaza who knew full well what their agenda is. The Palestinian Authority of the West Bank gives financial stipends to the families of terrorists who have killed Jews in Israel. Anyone who sympathizes with such people is abetting terrorism and the murder of civilian Jews.

BTW, “abettor" can be spelled "abetter" as well. The former is more common, so I'll use that in the future. Thank you.

Thanks for all the up-votes to my notes on this subject. It is heartening for both Israel and myself.

[Don Schneider]

What kind of thread is this?

"...but no good will come of this thread." Yoda

But it's here and so be it.

[Don Schneider]

The real hypocrisy is that if native Americans came back to take America no one would "begrudge them this tiny piece of land".

Give me a break and don't play semantics with me. Palestinians, rock worshippers, Muslims, use whatever name you like but you do not get to kick out people from their home because your ancestors used to live there 2000 years ago.

Semantics? I believe that my pointing out that the Arabs conquered a vast area of territory where other people had been living is written in plain language that you are either incapable of comprehending or, more likely, choose to ignore. It seems so much easier to pick on Jews, now isn’t it? Well, they can fight back now. Get over it.

[Don Schneider]

The discussion continues because the world has been infected with the mind disease called Political Correctness - it makes those indoctrinated in its camp incapable of discerning good from evil or viewing history from an informed, factual or objective perspective.

Your analysis is right on the proverbial money. Thank you.

[matt72582]

overzealous

[Don Schneider]

overzealous

If we don’t stop it where it begins, then we won’t stop it where it ends, except perhaps at great cost.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” George Santayana

[Dani8]

If you don’t recognize the remarks about Gypsies and insects as biting sarcasm, then I’ll inform you now that that was what it was.

If you don’t recognize the allusion to the castration of Jews, then perhaps you should study more 20th century history. It wasn’t all that long ago.

Jews can finally defend themselves within a national homeland, and that irks a whole lot of malevolent creatures posing as human beings. Jews have finally learned that when up against it, they can count on no one but themselves. To that I say: Hear! Hear! and wish them well.

As far as terrorist-abettors, once again Hamas, a designated terrorist organization that openly avows the destruction of all Jewry, were freely elected by the people of Gaza who knew full well what their agenda is. The Palestinian Authority of the West Bank gives financial stipends to the families of terrorists who have killed Jews in Israel. Anyone who sympathizes with such people is abetting terrorism and the murder of civilian Jews.

BTW, “abettor" can be spelled "abetter" as well. The former is more common, so I'll use that in the future. Thank you.

Thanks for all the up-votes to my notes on this subject. It is heartening for both Israel and myself.

This is what you said, Don

To all terrorist abetting, Israel bashing anti-Semites, listen to this and understand.

and

You can’t castrate Jews anymore. Get used to it and move on. Never again!

You directed your comment to people on this board, not Hamas. And your castration comment was in the present tense. And yes your sarcasm re: telling people here to go and pick on Gypsies and pull wings off flies was noted and was pretty ridiculous IMO.

[Don Schneider]

This is what you said, Don



and



You directed your comment to people on this board, not Hamas. And your castration comment was in the present tense. And yes your sarcasm re: telling people here to go and pick on Gypsies and pull wings off flies was noted and was pretty ridiculous IMO.


My comments were addressed to all Israel-bashing, anti-Semites everywhere. As President Harry Truman put it: “If you can’t stand the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.”

This is one issue where I cannot moderate. Moderation in the face of evil is no virtue.

One last time, Dani, addressing such people who sympathize with terrorists--or turn a blind eye to such evil towards them--who vow to kill all Jews worldwide is most appropriate. If you disagree, that's your prerogative.

I think we got along quite well until this thread. It’s a pity, but so be it. Our esteemed moderator called this one quite presciently.

[Dani8]

My comments were addressed to all Israel-bashing, anti-Semites everywhere. As President Harry Truman put it: “If you can’t stand the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.”

This is one issue where I cannot moderate. Moderation in the face of evil is no virtue.

One last time, Dani, addressing such people who sympathize with terrorists--or turn a blind eye to such evil towards them--who vow to kill all Jews worldwide is most appropriate. If you disagree....,

I think we got along quite well until this thread. It’s a pity, but so be it. . Our esteemed moderator called this one quite presciently.

Well you should word it in such a way, Don. This forum is not the whole globe. It's a tiny speck yet you chose to lecture here on the business of all anti semites. That's not how little discussion boards work. Take to twitter or other global social media if you want to bash the bashers of the world. Or take out an add in Reuters. You know, I'll even join you to verbally smack around bigots.

As for your last comment, I wont just bow down to your post which I disagreed with and found quite snide because I have previously got along with you. I dont get barked down on the net or in real life just because I agree with people on other commentaries and disagree on another. This is the big kids' sandpit, not the toddlers' sand pit.

[Yoda]

Just want to remind everyone--and I really mean everyone, in the sense that I'm really not singling anyone out here--that this is an inherently heated topic, and it's always worth going the extra mile to make sure each statement is sufficiently nuanced and, if necessary, qualified, even if you have to bend over backwards to avoid misunderstandings. Won't ask anyone to moderate their views, but then, I don't think one needs to do that in order to be civil, either.

Often, the difference between a flame war and a respectful disagreement is just whether or not someone decides to add little exclamations, or speculation about peoples' motives, in addition to simply stating their belief.

[Don Schneider]

Well you should word it in such a way, Don. This forum is not the whole globe. It's a tiny speck yet you chose to lecture here on the business of all anti semites. That's not how little discussion boards work. Take to twitter or other global social media if you want to bash the bashers of the world. Or take out an add in Reuters. You know, I'll even join you to verbally smack around bigots.

As for your last comment, I wont just bow down to your post which I disagreed with and found quite snide because I have previously got along with you. I dont get barked down on the net or in real life just because I agree with people on other commentaries and disagree on another. This is the big kids' sandpit, not the toddlers' sand pit.

I didn't start the thread. You are not the moderator. Read the thread through and read comments about "the Jewish agenda" and posting Galloway as a credible source on this issue. Above all, learn from history.

[Dani8]

I didn't start the thread. You are not the moderator. Read the thread through and read comments about "the Jewish agenda" and posting Galloway as a credible source on this issue. Above all, learn from history.

I wasn't even here when the thread was started, and I have never claimed or even wanted to be a moderator on any forum so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. As for lecturing me once again to learn some history, goodness me. And at no stage have I even commented on Galloway.

What.The???

My first post in this thread was a photo of jewish and palestinian children playing sport together. Good grief, Don.

[Don Schneider]

I wasn't even here when the thread was started, and I have never claimed or even wanted to be a moderator on any forum so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. As for lecturing me once again to learn some history, goodness me. And at no stage have I even commented on Galloway.

What.The???

My first post in this thread was a photo of jewish and palestinian children playing sport together. Good grief, Don.

I wasn’t here either but that hardly precludes me or anyone from reading the thread through. However, our moderator has now spoken and I shall respectfully defer to his wishes. Good day.

[donniedarko]

For me its a simple fact,

Except nothing you said in this short statement was a fact...

before 1948 it was Palestine

Except it wasn't, it was a British territory with no sovereignty.

and palestinians lived there.

No, Arabs lived there (alongside Brits and Jews). The made up term of "Palestinians" only came around the 60s.

After 1948-->renamed to Israel and former inhabitants kicked out.

Ya, except that's not what happened, there was government removal of inhabitants.


Do a bit of research before spouting straight falsehoods, and calling them facts

[donniedarko]

The real hypocrisy is that if native Americans came back to take America no one would "begrudge them this tiny piece of land".

Give me a break and don't play semantics with me. Palestinians, rock worshippers, Muslims, use whatever name you like but you do not get to kick out people from their home because your ancestors used to live there 2000 years ago.

Kid, you know nothing about the history of the territory which is immediately apparent by these posts. Stay in your lane

[Don Schneider]

Kid, you know nothing about the history of the territory which is immediately apparent by these posts. Stay in your lane

C'est evident,

[Equilibrium]

My comments were addressed to all Israel-bashing, anti-Semites everywhere. As President Harry Truman put it: “If you can’t stand the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.”

This is one issue where I cannot moderate. Moderation in the face of evil is no virtue.

One last time, Dani, addressing such people who sympathize with terrorists--or turn a blind eye to such evil towards them--who vow to kill all Jews worldwide is most appropriate. If you disagree, that's your prerogative.

I think we got along quite well until this thread. It’s a pity, but so be it. Our esteemed moderator called this one quite presciently.

You're a Zionist. Not a Jew.

The Jewish people learned so much from Hitler. And then applied it to Palestinians. Broken homes, walls through lands, dead families. You can say "you can't pick on Jews anymore" all you want but the truth remains, Israel (not Jews or Judaism) is a terrorist state that has committed innumerable egregious acts of terrorism on innocent, good people.

You are clearly incapable of seeing it the other way and I feel so sorry for you.

[Equilibrium]

Kid, you know nothing about the history of the territory which is immediately apparent by these posts. Stay in your lane


Oh is that so? Education is a privilege that passed you by I suppose.

[Equilibrium]

Except nothing you said in this short statement was a fact...



Except it wasn't, it was a British territory with no sovereignty.



No, Arabs lived there (alongside Brits and Jews). The made up term of "Palestinians" only came around the 60s.



Ya, except that's not what happened, there was government removal of inhabitants.


Do a bit of research before spouting straight falsehoods, and calling them facts


Another person obsessed with semantics.

Use whatever language you like, it's still a bunch of innocent civilians getting kicked out of their homes. Do your research.

[donniedarko]

Another person obsessed with semantics. reality


.

[donniedarko]

You're a Zionist. Not a Jew.

The Jewish people learned so much from Hitler. And then applied it to Palestinians. Broken homes, walls through lands, dead families. You can say "you can't pick on Jews anymore" all you want but the truth remains, Israel (not Jews or Judaism) is a terrorist state that has committed innumerable egregious acts of terrorism on innocent, good people.

You are clearly incapable of seeing it the other way and I feel so sorry for you.

Ya, ya, ya Israelies are the nazis now. A new favorite of the anti-semetic mainstream

"innocent, good people."? Is that the new term for Hamas and their human shields? Ah, there I go obsessing over semantics again

[donniedarko]

Oh is that so? Education is a privilege that passed you by I suppose.

11 years younger than you, and I'd put my education up against yours anyday

[Equilibrium]

Not really a meaningful discussion. I'm saying it doesn't matter what they were called. Let's just say they were"people" not Palestinians kiss "people". Can we now have a conversation about how these people were forced out of their homes so the British mandate could be enticed?

Again your reality is one of lies and deceit. I don't know you're motives but as someone who is well read and knows his history, the Israeli state is illegal and immoral.

[Equilibrium]

11 years younger than you, and I'd put my education up against yours anyday

Hahahaha. Now that is funny.

I'm a subspecialized surgery physician. Go to class son, then come back to me when you've traveled, read, and had time to understand what's really going on around you.

[donniedarko]

Not really a meaningful discussion. I'm saying it doesn't matter what they were called. Let's just say they were"people" not Palestinians kiss "people". Can we now have a conversation about how these people were forced out of their homes so the British mandate could be enticed?

Yes, show me where Israeli's kicked Arabs out of their homes in order to create the state, I'd be happy to see it

Again your reality is one of lies and deceit. I don't know you're motives but as someone who is well read and knows his history, the Israeli state is illegal and immoral.

Tell me how it's illegal then

[Equilibrium]

Ya, ya, ya Israelies are the nazis now. A new favorite of the anti-semetic mainstream

"innocent, good people."? Is that the new term for Hamas and their human shields? Ah, there I go obsessing over semantics again


I'm sorry, I didn't realize Hamas existed in the 1940s when people were getting kicked out of their homes. Oh there I go skewing reality again.

[donniedarko]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize Hamas existed in the 1940s when people were getting kicked out of their homes. Oh there I go skewing reality again.

Hamas didn't exist, but neither did your false narrative of people getting kicked out of their homes

[donniedarko]

Hahahaha. Now that is funny.

I'm a subspecialized surgery physician.

Alright fine, you got me beat there

Go to class son, then come back to me when you've traveled, read, and had time to understand what's really going on around you.

I still think I'm ahead on these categories though, have you been to Israel?

[Captain Steel]

Except nothing you said in this short statement was a fact...



Except it wasn't, it was a British territory with no sovereignty.



No, Arabs lived there (alongside Brits and Jews). The made up term of "Palestinians" only came around the 60s.



Ya, except that's not what happened, there was government removal of inhabitants.


Do a bit of research before spouting straight falsehoods, and calling them facts

This is how PC works. A narrative is formed that ignores facts and history, but only supports whatever the PC "cause of the day" happens to be. This narrative is then fed to the followers who swallow it without ever questioning if it's even true or not.


Today's "Palestinians" are the descendents of mostly Arab Muslims who were not welcome in surrounding lands such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt & Syria due largely to the fact that they couldn't get along with others. i.e. even among fundamentalist Muslims, they were troublemakers. This is a very generalized summary of a complicated ethnic, religious, national & geographic situation that has been evolving for centuries.

But it begs the question: if the Arab & Muslims communities are so supportive of the Palestinian cause, why doesn't Saudi Arabia establish a nation for them within their land that would far exceed any sized real estate the Palestinians are constantly killing to obtain in the small strip of land called Israel. Saudi Arabia is a rich country that could provide a standard of living to Palestinians that could exceed any they might experience constantly vying with Israel.

Check out a map of the middle east - the same question could be asked of several countries in the area that neighbor Israel. (I'll exclude the question from Syria & Iraq currently due to their civil wars, insurgencies, instability and terrorist infiltration). You could fit about a hundred Israels inside Saudi Arabia alone. So why wouldn't their fellow Muslims with excesses of land and resources provide a space for Palestinians on what is historical Arab lands? Simple - they don't want them either (they didn't want them before 1948 and they don't want them now).

Palestine has broken every treaty, cease-fire, and deal with Israel - this is a centuries long pattern with them regarding how they deal with others. They have back-stabbed on every single agreement, and broken every single peace deal and double-crossed every concession Israel has made in Palestine's favor. Israel has given them millions of dollars in humanitarian aid which Palestine did not use to feed people or create housing, but to invest in missiles that they have hurled at Israel on a non-stop basis (even when they've agreed to cease-fires) and build tunnels to go into Israel so they could murder innocent Israeli families in their sleep. Of course a lot of this has to do with the fact that Palestine is simply run by Radical Islamic Terrorists.

This pattern of back-stabbing, betrayal and violence is known by other Muslim countries and is partly why they only support Palestine in killing Jews and wiping Israel off the map, but not in providing them space in their ample counties. (The other Arab / Muslim countries have no interest in actually sharing their abundance of space and wealth because the only things that trumps their disgust for their Palestinian brethren is their overwhelming, Koranic commanded, hatred for Jews).

[donniedarko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35eEljsSQfc

Also I'd love your thought on this Equilibrium

Since the only state acting as a terrorist in the region you've mentioned is Israel

[Equilibrium]

Hamas didn't exist, but neither did your false narrative of people getting kicked out of their homes

You Zionist types will always deny the truth even if I show it to you so I don't expect you to change your misconception even slightly. But here it goes.

The guardian, I hope even in your young inexperienced age you know represents the highest standards in journalism. There is very little bias in any of their articles.

I quote from the article linked below.
The picture that emerged was a complex one - of frightened communities fleeing their homes at the first whiff of grapeshot, as they or neighbouring villages were attacked; of communities expelled by conquering Israeli troops; of villagers ordered by Arab commanders to send away women, children and the old to safety in inland areas; and of economic privation, unemployment and general chaos as the British mandate government wound down and allowed the two native communities to slug it out. The better-organised, economically more robust and ideologically more cohesive and motivated Jewish community weathered the flail of war; Palestinian society fell apart.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2004/jan/14/israel

Frightened communities, forced to leave after aggressive neighbors and militia groups surrounded and crowded them out.

I don't like you, and I have no desire to ever meet you, but I genuinely hope and pray that you never have to experience what they did.

[Equilibrium]

Alright fine, you got me beat there



I still think I'm ahead on these categories though, have you been to Israel?
Of course, though I'll call it occupied palestine ;). I've also been to the west bank, the gaza strip. I've also been to Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar in the mdi east.

I've also been to all 3 major holocaust death camps in europe.

I mentioned this because I fail to see why having visited a country or not gives you anymore insight into whether or not its creation was justified.

You don't need to go to Syria to know that bombing civilians with chemical weapons is wrong.

[Equilibrium]

Also I'd love your thought on this Equilibrium

Since the only state acting as a terrorist in the region you've mentioned is Israel

Saw the video and don't see the epiphany moment you seemed to have had. The answer is simple, if you're a Jew living in a mostly Muslim country mostly who are not in support of your religion, then you're going to take your stuff and move to Israel. Don't understand how that is related to Israel right now.

The middle East has a lot of problems and the majority of those arab countries are corrupt and backwards, you won't get disagreement from me on that. The topic at hand is the 1948 creation of a fake country called Israel. A country formed in the middle of a pre-existing civilization that was forced to leave as a result.

[matt72582]

99% of the deaths are Palestinian civilians. No excuse.

[donniedarko]

Saw the video and don't see the epiphany moment you seemed to have had. The answer is simple, if you're a Jew living in a mostly Muslim country mostly who are not in support of your religion, then you're going to take your stuff and move to Israel. Don't understand how that is related to Israel right now.

Clearly not as educated on the Middle East as you think. These people didn't pack there stuff and leave. They were either killed off or prosecuted. In Syria they weren't allowed to leave in fact.

[donniedarko]

99% of the deaths are Palestinian civilians. No excuse.

Fake statistic, from another Hamas brown noser who knows nothing about the region

[Don Schneider]

Of course, though I'll call it occupied palestine ;). I've also been to the west bank, the gaza strip. I've also been to Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar in the mdi east.

I've also been to all 3 major holocaust death camps in europe.

I mentioned this because I fail to see why having visited a country or not gives you anymore insight into whether or not its creation was justified.

You don't need to go to Syria to know that bombing civilians with chemical weapons is wrong.

Once again, when was there ever a state of “Palestine” or even a “Palestinian” people before the advent of Zionism? You also seemingly refuse to address the Arabic conquests which accounts for the ponderous resource rich land mass now occupied by Arabs. Even if the Jews “stole” the land from the Arabs in this tiny region, you seem to be very selective with your moralizing about such matters and when to begin such..

[Equilibrium]

99% of the deaths are Palestinian civilians. No excuse.

Clearly not as educated on the Middle East as you think. These people didn't pack there stuff and leave. They were either killed off or prosecuted. In Syria they weren't allowed to leave in fact.

So basically, if an opinion conflicts with yours...the other side is uneducated.

I just can't anymore, I know how stubborn I was as a 20 year old I won't even bother lol. :p

[Dani8]

Fake statistic, from another Hamas brown noser who knows nothing about the region

I see you havent changed your spots. How rude. Matt is one of the nicest people on this forum.

[Equilibrium]

Once again, when was there ever a state of “Palestine” or even a “Palestinian” people before the advent of Zionism? You also seemingly refuse to address the Arabic conquests which accounts for the ponderous resource rich land mass now occupied by Arabs. Even if the Jews “stole” the land from the Arabs in this tiny region, you seem to be very selective with your moralizing about such matters and when to begin such..

I condem all acts of immorality. Whether they come from Arabs or Jews or Buddhists.

This thread is about Israel and Palestine and in the context of this thread, Israel is the aggressor and "palestine" (i put it in quotes to make you happier) is the victim.

[donniedarko]

So basically, if an opinion conflicts with yours...the other side is uneducated.

I just can't anymore, I know how stubborn I was as a 20 year old I won't even bother lol. :p

It's not an opinion, it's just fake.

You're ignorant about the treatment of Jews in Arab nations as evident by your packing up the bags comment.

Matt just came in here and made up a statistic you can't find anywhere.

[Equilibrium]

I see you havent changed your spots. How rude. Matt is one of the nicest people on this forum.

Thats the problem, they will persionally attack you if their opinion conflicts with yours. Pretty much the story of Zionism.

[donniedarko]

I see you havent changed your spots. How rude. Matt is one of the nicest people on this forum.

He might be nice, but he's also spreading bullsh*t

[Don Schneider]

99% of the deaths are Palestinian civilians. No excuse.

After Hamas attacks Israel with rockets and builds terror tunnels, Israel is supposed to apologize for having better weaponry and choosing to spend resourses on defensive measures such as iron dome and shelters? Israel is supposed to apologize because Hamas launches rockets from civilian areas, even on the grounds of hospitals? If you went up to a man much larger and stronger than yourself and physically attacked him with your fists, you’d cry that you got the worst of it?

[donniedarko]

Thats the problem, they will persionally attack you if their opinion conflicts with yours. Pretty much the story of Zionism Jews

Zionists is just a new code word, it doesn't sound as bad as what you're actually trying to say

[donniedarko]

After Hamas attacks Israel with rockets and builds terror tunnels, Israel is supposed to apologize for having better weaponry and choosing to spend resourses on defensive measures such as iron dome and shelters? Israel is supposed to apologize because Hamas launches rockets from civilian areas, even on the grounds of hospitals? If you went up to a man much larger and stronger than yourself and physically attacked him with your fists, you’d cry that you got the worst of it?

Not to even mention Israel could destroy the region in minutes if it wanted too. If Hamas had the abilities Israel does, there'd be no Jewish state

[donniedarko]

"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (Nasrallah, Oct. 23, 2002)

Ah yes Equilibrium , these are the victims and not the agressors

[Dani8]

Thats the problem, they will persionally attack you if their opinion conflicts with yours. Pretty much the story of Zionism.

I know. All I did was post a photo of innocent children playing sport together in response to a Mofo who said he supports humanity and I concurred. I'm on the side of the innocents stuck in the middle of conflicts, especially the children

http://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2014/09/03/thumbs/P19-140903-a1.jpg

[matt72582]

How quickly some people jump... Facts are facts. If you want to choose to look the other way with injustice, do it, but don't dispute facts.

I'll even use Israeli statistics - Civilian casualty figures for the Israeli–Palestinian conflict from B'tselem and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affair

2009
1034 - Palestinian casualties
9 - Israeli casualties

Do the math.... 99%....

There's only one race -- the human race, but as Orwell indicated "Some people are more equal than others"

[Equilibrium]

How quickly some people jump... Facts are facts. If you want to choose to look the other way with injustice, do it, but don't dispute facts.

I'll even use Israeli statistics - Civilian casualty figures for the Israeli–Palestinian conflict from B'tselem and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affair

2009
1034 - Palestinian casualties
9 - Israeli casualties

Do the math.... 99%....

There's only one race -- the human race, but as Orwell indicated "Some people are more equal than others"

They don't believe in facts. Just the zionist agenda.

[donniedarko]

How quickly some people jump... Facts are facts. If you want to choose to look the other way with injustice, do it, but don't dispute facts.

I'll even use Israeli statistics - Civilian casualty figures for the Israeli–Palestinian conflict from B'tselem and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affair

2009
1034 - Palestinian casualties
9 - Israeli casualties

Do the math.... 99%....

There's only one race -- the human race, but as Orwell indicated "Some people are more equal than others"

Fake news once again, 2009 the Israeli estimate of civilian deaths was 299 of the 1165. The UN estumated 759 out of 1391. In either case 99% of the deaths are not civilians. In fact by most account more than half were palestinian combatants. Maybe they could lower the civilian number if they didnt use human shields too...

[donniedarko]

God Matt has posted two fale statistics and still gets upvoted.

[Don Schneider]

How quickly some people jump... Facts are facts. If you want to choose to look the other way with injustice, do it, but don't dispute facts.

I'll even use Israeli statistics - Civilian casualty figures for the Israeli–Palestinian conflict from B'tselem and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affair

2009
1034 - Palestinian casualties
9 - Israeli casualties

Do the math.... 99%....

There's only one race -- the human race, but as Orwell indicated "Some people are more equal than others"

But again, what is your point? What does one expect when a weaker force attacks a stronger one? During the last Gaza flare-up, how many times did Israel offer to quit if Hamas would? How many times did they refuse? How much could they have cared about their own people to refuse? You blame Israel for Hamas's seeming insanity?

[Captain Steel]

Not to even mention Israel could destroy the region in minutes if it wanted too. If Hamas had the abilities Israel does, there'd be no Jewish state

This is what irks me. In 2001 George Bush declared that if you're not with us (meaning the rational, peace-loving, freedom-seeking people of the world) then you are with the terrorists, and he declared a "war on terror" that never manifested.

If anyone was actually committed to destroying Islamic Terrorism then Israel could now be a safe and peaceful place for anyone who wants to live there, but every time Israel had Hamas on the ropes, we (i.e. Obama along with the U.N.) would order them to practice "restraint."

We should have been helping them destroy the terrorists instead of stopping them (and then sending money to Palestine for the terrorists to re-arm themselves).

In 2006 Israel had Hezbollah on the run in Lebanon - if we had come in from the north, together we could have crushed Hezbollah in the middle and obliterated them forever, thus freeing a nation's people from the rule of genocidal maniacs. Instead we ordered Israel to back off and handed another country over to Islamic Terrorists... and don't even get me started on Obama refusing to support the Iranian people's uprising against their theocratic dictators (who had them mowed down in the streets) while propping up the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood (progenitor of Al Qaida and ISIS) during what he called the "Arab Spring."

We've done more to bolster, grow, fund, arm and support Islamic Terrorism through our PC commands toward Israel to "practice restraint" and our appeasement of Islamic fundamentalism than the countries that actually want Sharia Law and export terrorism!

[Equilibrium]

But again, what is your point? What does one expect when a weaker force attacks a stronger one? During the last Gaza flare-up, how many times did Israel offer to quit if Hamas would? How many times did they refuse? How much could they have cared about their own people to refuse? You blame Israel for Hamas's seeming insanity?

Whats his point?

You're completely brainwashed.

First you accuse him of making false statements then he shows you proof and backup of his statements and you go on to say whats his point.

I'm out this troll thread. Stay ignorant.

[Blix the Goblin]

Uh Oh Pasgettios!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm9EwTFjC28

[donniedarko]

Whats his point?

You're completely brainwashed.

First you accuse him of making false statements then he shows you proof and backup of his statements and you go on to say whats his point.

I'm out this troll thread. Stay ignorant.

No he just came back with more false statements. And you came back to regurgitate them again.

[donniedarko]

I'm out this troll thread. Stay ignorant.

Facts are tough to deal with when they dont coincide with your ideas. Its ok

[Equilibrium]

Facts are tough to deal with when they dont coincide with your ideas. Its ok

Your facts. Which are lies.

Ask for a refund from your university, I wouldn't trust you with a simple cashier job at this point.

[Dani8]

More of this needed in conflict zones around the world so these sweet kids have at least a minor chance of living in peace in future

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/israeli-children-from-kibbutz-harel-play-football-with-palestinian-picture-id136265729

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer4/2014/09/01/5560871/55608670100098490349no.jpg

[Yoda]

I tried a gentle warning, but apparently that didn't work, so this one's going to be a little more explicit. This...

Facts are tough to deal with when they dont coincide with your ideas. Its ok
Your facts. Which are lies.

Ask for a refund from your university, I wouldn't trust you with a simple cashier job at this point.
...is obviously not an argument, if it ever was. If this continues, the thread's going to be closed. If you disagree, fine, but anyone tacking on ad hominem attacks is not going to be permitted, and does nothing to strengthen a position, anyway. Frankly, it makes the argument look weaker.

If this is actually a dispute about facts, then it should be pretty easy to resolve: when someone disputes a fact, the person who originally posted it should source it. Pretty simple.

That said, I see arguments above about how to interpret the numbers in question, even if they are factual. Not sure why someone arguing in good faith wouldn't address that head on, since just counting casualties is obviously a facile way to determine whether one side is being victimized. You could just as well measure it by the number of relatively unprovoked attacks, which would, I believe, yield the opposite conclusion. I'm sure some of you disagree, but anyone trying to have an actual discussion would be talking about that, despite the fact that it necessarily involves a lot of pesky nuance.

[Don Schneider]

Whats his point?

You're completely brainwashed.

First you accuse him of making false statements then he shows you proof and backup of his statements and you go on to say whats his point.

I'm out this troll thread. Stay ignorant.

For the record, I did no such thing. Whatever the exact figures, I acknowledged that the causality figures were very lopsided. No one denies that. But the reason for that is obvious, and I therefore don’t see what his point was. Read my answer (which you quoted) to him again if you care to.

You said that you visited all the major Nazi Holocaust death camps. As a surgeon (BTW, you need to update your profile in which you state that you are in medical school; congratulations on your apparent graduation, doctor!), weren’t you horrified at the sheer evil members of your profession (with Mengele being the most notorious at Auschwitz) inflicted upon Jews and some others? This of and in itself doesn’t make you sympathetic for the need of a Jewish homeland for Jews to defend themselves? Apparently not. Some people never learn...or perhaps don't want to.

[donniedarko]

Where (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008–09))i got the figures for the Gaza War casualties I cited

[Captain Steel]

More of this needed in conflict zones around the world so these sweet kids have at least a minor chance of living in peace in future

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/israeli-children-from-kibbutz-harel-play-football-with-palestinian-picture-id136265729

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer4/2014/09/01/5560871/55608670100098490349no.jpg

A movie I might recommend on this topic (for those interested) is The Other Son (2012) - the heart wrenching story of two sons (one Israeli, one Palestinian) who find out they were accidentally switched at birth, and how they and their families, who hold staunch views about the other side, must come to terms.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2073016/?ref_=nv_sr_1

[Equilibrium]

Where (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008–09))i got the figures for the Gaza War casualties I cited

Citing one incident is good and all but how about we just vote the entire conflict from start to finish and call it a day:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict under the fatalities section.

[Dani8]

Putting that on my watch list. Thnks, Cap.

[Equilibrium]

For the record, I did no such thing. Whatever the exact figures, I acknowledged that the causality figures were very lopsided. No one denies that. But the reason for that is obvious, and I therefore don’t see what his point was. Read my answer (which you quoted) to him again if you care to.

You said that you visited all the major Nazi Holocaust death camps. As a surgeon (BTW, you need to update your profile in which you state that you are in medical school; congratulations on your apparent graduation, doctor!), weren’t you horrified at the sheer evil members of your profession (with Mengele being the most notorious at Auschwitz) inflicted upon Jews and some others? This of and in itself doesn’t make you sympathetic for the need of a Jewish homeland for Jews to defend themselves? Apparently not. Some people never learn...or perhaps don't want to.

I log in scarcely. I've since completed residency and a subspecialty.

Horrors were inflicted by everyone from all races, backgrounds, and professions during the holocaust including the ordinary man who turned a blind eye to the persecution by the millions of innocent Jews (And by the thousands of innocent Muslims and other minorities I might add). I am horrified. But I don't live in 1930 when the rise of Hitler was fueled by people who believed fervently that everything was black and white, and that Jews were the reason for the down trending economy and other problems. Had I been alive then I might have been having this argument with a German. Trying to convince him that Jews deserve their own land and all the rights afforded to other citizens of Germany.

But I live in 2017. And in 2017 there is a state called Israel formed in the midst of a pre-existing civilization. And I see walls being built though Palestinian farm lands, I see settlements in the west bank, and I see Israelis living the high life, with iphones, nice hotels and standards of living while the Palestinians live like animals. Hanging on to the memory that one day they'll return to houses their grandfathers had lived in. When I went to the west bank I met a couple who still had a house deed for the house their father had grown up in (Jerusalem). I went to that house and there living were a very nice Jewish couple..completely unaware that the walls they reside in were built and still owned by another family. A family not allowed to pursue their properties in the courts because the 1948 declaration made all such deeds in admissible.

So there you have it. I'm not advocating for the demise of any one group, but the conversation needs to change. The Palestinians ARE currently getting the short end of the stick. They suffer and humanity suffers with them as humanity suffered with the Jews during the Holocaust.

[Captain Steel]

Putting that on my watch list. Thnks, Cap.

Bring tissues.

The scenario may sound a little implausible at first, but when the movie puts it into the historical context that the mothers of the infants were in the same hospital during one of the conflicts that called for an evacuation - and the accidental switch occurred during the evacuation - it makes the story totally plausible.

[Dani8]

Bring tissues.

The scenario may sound a little implausible at first, but when the movie puts it into the historical context that the mothers of the infants were in the same hospital during one of the conflicts that called for an evacuation - and the accidental switch occurred during the evacuation - it makes the story totally plausible.

Oh no. I cant handle tear jerkers, Cap. I get enough of that from world news.

[Don Schneider]

I log in scarcely. I've since completed residency and a subspecialty.

Horrors were inflicted by everyone from all races, backgrounds, and professions during the holocaust including the ordinary man who turned a blind eye to the persecution by the millions of innocent Jews (And by the thousands of innocent Muslims and other minorities I might add). I am horrified. But I don't live in 1930 when the rise of Hitler was fueled by people who believed fervently that everything was black and white, and that Jews were the reason for the down trending economy and other problems. Had I been alive then I might have been having this argument with a German. Trying to convince him that Jews deserve their own land and all the rights afforded to other citizens of Germany.

But I live in 2017. And in 2017 there is a state called Israel formed in the midst of a pre-existing civilization. And I see walls being built though Palestinian farm lands, I see settlements in the west bank, and I see Israelis living the high life, with iphones, nice hotels and standards of living while the Palestinians live like animals. Hanging on to the memory that one day they'll return to houses their grandfathers had lived in. When I went to the west bank I met a couple who still had a house deed for the house their father had grown up in (Jerusalem). I went to that house and there living were a very nice Jewish couple..completely unaware that the walls they reside in were built and still owned by another family. A family not allowed to pursue their properties in the courts because the 1948 declaration made all such deeds in admissible.

So there you have it. I'm not advocating for the demise of any one group, but the conversation needs to change. The Palestinians ARE currently getting the short end of the stick. They suffer and humanity suffers with them as humanity suffered with the Jews during the Holocaust.

Thank you, doctor, for that most civil and considered response. I’m impressed, even though we don’t at this point agree. I'm now convinced that you are at least sincere in your beliefs, as opposed to mendacious, much less malevolent. You are likely a much younger man than myself, considering your resume. The Holocaust weighs heavily upon our generation, as well as our fathers’ participation in WWII. Please bear that in mind when you argue this subject.

Perhaps if there is another Israeli-Hamas conflict, you’ll go to Gaza and volunteer your services. (I don’t mean that sarcastically. If people are seriously injured, then they need medical attention. The whys and wherefores pale in such a moment. Many such unfortunates are indeed innocent war victims.) I would urge one thing upon you, though. Take a few hours sometime to read Leon Uris’s book QB VII. It is based on a real incident in the author’s life. In an earlier book, the bestselling Exodus, Uris made a brief mention of a Polish doctor who he stated had been at Auschwitz where he castrated Jews. The doctor was living in England at the time (where the book’s publisher was located) and sued for liable. It’s very fast and compelling reading. The jury’s verdict is one of the most interesting in legal history, and one of the most profound.

Take care and I hope you enjoy a long and fruitful career.

[Zotis]

The last few pages of this thread have been really tiresome. Don Scheider and donniedarko, I don't think you should keep arguing with Equilibrium. I don't know if it's just your egos, but you're certainly not going to get through to him. He's just a troll, and I think you should stop feeding him.

I see you havent changed your spots. How rude. Matt is one of the nicest people on this forum.

Hahaha. Oh man, that's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Dani8, you are one of those PC types who values being nice over the truth.

So here is my proposition, instead of continuing to argue back and forth more and risking the whole thread getting locked, perhaps posting videos from various perspectives could be more beneficial to this thread? Even the Gorgeous George Galloway videos at least gave me perspective and were educational even if the guy is a pretty horrible human being.

I found this documentary very interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxEXGA0RU5c

[Dani8]

que...i havent got the faintest idea who you are or why you deem to label me a pc type. dear sweet dog almighty

and im not a man thanks

[donniedarko]

Citing one incident is good and all but how about we just vote the entire conflict from start to finish and call it a day:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict under the fatalities section.

I cited that one because its the one Matt chose

Your link still shows that Matt was false in saying 99% of deaths were Palestinian deaths were civilian, as it is in fact 59% (2000). While Israels in 69%

lets call it a day with Matt made up a statistic and you went along with it

[Zotis]

que...i havent got the faintest idea who you are or why you deem to label me a pc type. dear sweet dog almighty

and im not a man thanks

I'm not a dog thanks.

[Dani8]

I'm not a dog thanks.

I didn't call you one.

jesus christi. You barged in without knowing why I even made the comment insulting another poster as 'a brown noser' which is a straight out hominem attack. It's bloody rude. Good grief.

https://49yzp92imhtx8radn224z7y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Screen-shot-2012-07-30-at-5.55.13-PM.png

[Equilibrium]

I'm not a dog thanks.

I didn't call you one.

jesus christi. You barged in without knowing why I even made the comment insulting another poster as 'a brown noser' which is a straight out hominem attack. It's bloody rude. Good grief.

https://49yzp92imhtx8radn224z7y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Screen-shot-2012-07-30-at-5.55.13-PM.png

Just ignore him. He came in and called me a troll and then left lol.

[Dani8]

Just ignore him. He came in and called me a troll and then left lol.


I know. He probably doesnt even know my heritage is Jewish but he thought he could take a stab at me as well. The assumptions are hilarious. Fly in Fly out. Keyboard warriors.

[donniedarko]

I know. He probably doesnt even know my heritage is Jewish but he thought he could take a stab at me as well. The assumptions are hilarious. Fly in Fly out. Keyboard warriors.

It had nothing to do with being Jewish, rather overly PC

W/e we're seriously gonna get the thread closed if we don't stay on topic and of the ad hom based on the new rules.