Is the internet hurting the quality of TV?

[KasperKristensen]

Nowadays everything is discussed in detail. We gather on message boards and try to guess endings and plot twists, we create entire Wikipedias dedicated to shows like Lost and Deadwood and we review! We review TV like crazy.
Does it make it harder for TV shows to create tension, disputes or plot twists that span over several episodes or even seasons when the internet is filled with people trying to guess how it turns out? Does it encourage the developers to create standalone stories in each episode? Does it take away some of the mystery if you go online and read people's theories? Some of them are bound to be correct. Or does it allow extra complexity? Which I think Lost was a testament to. If you missed an episode, you'd better read up on it online before watching the next one.

It's indisputable that TV suffers on the count of websites that store all the episodes. We, as an audience, don't have to pay for say HBO anymore and we don't have to watch ads, which is a bigger chore in some countries than others.

In the old days people watched Family Ties and went about their day but now everyone theorizes and scrutinizes every last detail and share it with people online. The biggest problem for me is the reviews. I can watch an episode of Heroes, a series that went down the tubes in my opinion, and find it perfectly fine. But then I go online and read people's complaints about it and all of a sudden their complaints stand out to me that much more the next time I watch it. I realize that's just the way of life but since everyone's got a platform now the whole thing becomes so much bigger and louder.

Did Lost suffer due to the added pressure of peoples' expectations that everyone shouted out on the internet? I never got into it but I heard a lot of people were dissatisfied with how much were left unexplained but I think a lot of what people wanted explained came from themselves and their own theories than from the developers. Maybe people read too much into stuff and the ball just got rolling.

With sites such as Youtube that's filled with free, quality (well some of it) content are people starting to turn their backs on TV? Is it gonna die out like radio did? Where are the game and movie reviews? Not on TV but on the internet now. Music videos, cooking shows, documentaries - same story.

What are your thoughts?

[Pyro Tramp]

I think the theorising improves the enjoyment of the show. It makes you look deeper at what you're watching then just thinking 'oh this might happen'. Certainly with Lost, or complex shows with respect for intelligent viewers, internet fan speculation is part of the ride and it's in many instances helped me see things i've missed. The only real harm is when shows end and disappoint or don't pay off the thoughts you've invested. I wouldn't have enjoyed Lost nearly as much without DarkUfo and the clever clogs who interweave the shows subtle philosophical standpoints with more wider narratives and arcs.

[Iroquois]

Fortunately, I don't care too much about TV for the most part, though I will admit that having several parts of The Wire spoiled for me was definitely irritating. I have since learned to be more careful when it comes to avoiding discussion for shows I'm still in the process of watching or have yet to watch.

I doubt TV's going to die out completely, though.

[KasperKristensen]

Spoilers are a whole other issues. Before the internet all you had to avoid was your dumbass friend with a loose tongue but now the internet is filled with them.

[Iroquois]

Oh, right.

[KasperKristensen]

I didn't mean we couldn't discuss it though. :p

[Pyro Tramp]

Speaking of which, I've just come from foolishly browsing IMDBs GoT board.

[honeykid]

If you don't want something spoiled, why go looking for sites/threads about the programme you're watching. It makes no sense.

[Yoda]

Because for many shows it's fun to talk and speculate about what you've seen so far.

[will.15]

Then you take your chances.


The internet, certainly not youtube, isn't going to destroy television unless the economic model develops that they can produce television dramatic and comedic shows on the internet with the same production quality and creative talent as television, which is doubtful. Being able to discuss shows on the internet does not hurt television programs. It is a good marketing tool and generates buzz for certain type of shows. Most television shows are not discussed to any great extent on the internet, just the serialized shows like Lost and The Sopranos that capture the public's fancy.

[Yoda]

And we also get to whine about it!

If we're just talking about the fact that it can be hard to find a non-spoiler place to post things, that's understandable. Comes with the territory. But then again, that's not usually the issue. The problem is when people have to take an all-or-nothing approach because people are careless about spoilers and don't give each fan the choice to read them or not. They have to avoid discussion altogether, which seems extreme.

[planet news]

So... your idea is that to save television we shouldn't think about what we watch, but just "go about our day"? Your point is that we should embrace a detached stance towards a dense and extended narrative over exploring the work intellectually?

Sounds pretty awful to me. That was half of the fun of Lost. That was also almost entirely the reason why I kept watching. Then again, I hardly watch any television anymore as it airs, but there is a vast difference between a retrospective, overall evaluation and a play by play.

I would have to ponder over the merits of the latter.

[will.15]

Lost struck me a show that never was thought through, they were making it up as they go along. It was like those round robin stories where somebody writes one chapter, then with no plot outline, just what was written previously, writes the next chapter, then comes the next writer and does the same thing.

[honeykid]

That was half of the fun of Lost. That was also almost entirely the reason why I kept watching.

I can believe that. After 9 episodes, I couldn't find any reason to keep watching, so if you enjoyed talking about it on the net, you'd have to watch next week in order to keep up with the pointlessness of it all.

[Yoda]

Your loss.

[ash_is_the_gal]

well, i think television has changed so much since back in "the old days" anyway. shows like Lost and The Wire with a ****ton of plot twists and narratives. especially Lost, a show that went on for... 5 seasons? (i never actually watched it) and you didn't know what was really going on until you finished the entire series. i can't believe you threw out Family Ties as a comparative show when it clearly isn't. i mean, we have shows like Family Ties still out there today, but you don't see very many boards dedicated to scrutinizing shows like George Lopez and Two and a Half Men.

[ash_is_the_gal]

So... your idea is that to save television we shouldn't think about what we watch, but just "go about our day"? Your point is that we should embrace a detached stance towards a dense and extended narrative over exploring the work intellectually?

Sounds pretty awful to me.

i thought what Kasper was trying to say was that people take their shows so much more seriously today than they used to, and a lot of that may be spurred on by how connected we all are due to technology. "going about your day" could be another way of saying actually living in the real world a little more. but i guess that's a different issue entirely.

[honeykid]

Your loss.

It really wasn't.

[will.15]

i thought what Kasper was trying to say was that people take their shows so much more seriously today than they used to, and a lot of that may be spurred on by how connected we all are due to technology. "going about your day" could be another way of saying actually living in the real world a little more. but i guess that's a different issue entirely.
There have always been fans who take their shows too seriously, or at least as far back to the sixties with Star Trek. I liked Star Trek, but those Trekkies are insane. Hey, Sexy Celebrity, if you are reading this, I have a good one for you. Betty White once claimed she was a Trekkie.

[Yoda]

It really wasn't.
Yes it was.

The point of my mindless contradiction, by the way, is to show that there's no difference between what I'm doing and the comment that prompted it. Take an empty swipe, get an empty retort.

[honeykid]

But it wasn't empty. If most of the reason you're watching the programme is to talk about it online, then it makes sense that you'd keep watching in order to continue having fun. PN wasn't watching the programme for its own sake, but to discuss it. Having seen the first 9 episodes, I could believe that discussing it online was more enjoyable than watching the programme.

[ash_is_the_gal]

There have always been fans who take their shows too seriously, or at least as far back to the sixties with Star Trek. I liked Star Trek, but those Trekkies are insane.

oh, i never doubted that. but imagine how much more magnified those Trekkies would have been if Star Trek had been on during my generation's peak rather that yours.

[Yoda]

But it wasn't empty. If most of the reason you're watching the programme is to talk about it online, then it makes sense that you'd keep watching in order to continue having fun. PN wasn't watching the programme for its own sake, but to discuss it. Having seen the first 9 episodes, I could believe that discussing it online was more enjoyable than watching the programme.
Calling it "pointless" was certainly empty. That's what I was referring to.

Anyway, he said it was half the fun. I wouldn't take that to mean most, or even use it as a genuine mathematical representation at all, even for him, let alone others. I mostly watched it just to watch it. The speculation was more like a bonus for me.

[KasperKristensen]

So... your idea is that to save television we shouldn't think about what we watch, but just "go about our day"? Your point is that we should embrace a detached stance towards a dense and extended narrative over exploring the work intellectually?

Sounds pretty awful to me. That was half of the fun of Lost. That was also almost entirely the reason why I kept watching. Then again, I hardly watch any television anymore as it airs, but there is a vast difference between a retrospective, overall evaluation and a play by play.

I would have to ponder over the merits of the latter.

Not at all. I never said anything about saving TV. If it's a dying media, let it die. Onward!
I was just making a point that maybe there's added pressure on TV developers because people are taking their shows so seriously. What made me think of this is that I read about some guy who claimed he came up with The Brawler (or whatever) in Left 4 Dead 2 because he had written about it, in detail, in a thread before the game actually came out. And I figured that's gotta happen to TV also with this huge platform everyone has now.

And yes, maybe it wouldn't hurt getting off the message boards every once in a while and take a walk or something.

[KasperKristensen]

Then you take your chances.


The internet, certainly not youtube, isn't going to destroy television unless the economic model develops that they can produce television dramatic and comedic shows on the internet with the same production quality and creative talent as television, which is doubtful. Being able to discuss shows on the internet does not hurt television programs. It is a good marketing tool and generates buzz for certain type of shows. Most television shows are not discussed to any great extent on the internet, just the serialized shows like Lost and The Sopranos that capture the public's fancy.

Have you seen Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog?

Yeah.

[KasperKristensen]

well, i think television has changed so much since back in "the old days" anyway. shows like Lost and The Wire with a ****ton of plot twists and narratives. especially Lost, a show that went on for... 5 seasons? (i never actually watched it) and you didn't know what was really going on until you finished the entire series. i can't believe you threw out Family Ties as a comparative show when it clearly isn't. i mean, we have shows like Family Ties still out there today, but you don't see very many boards dedicated to scrutinizing shows like George Lopez and Two and a Half Men.

:laugh: Yeah, nobody's talking about Two and a Half Men. I was only using Family Ties as an example of what people watched in the old days, but you're right, people would never theorize about Family Ties on the internet. Well some would but they probably live in basements.

[ash_is_the_gal]

And yes, maybe it wouldn't hurt getting off the message boards every once in a while and take a walk or something.

well, you could say that anyway, even before people started theorizing television plot points on message boards. the idea that technology has become such a major factor in people's day to day life enjoyment is a big deal now. your "take a walk" argument is valid, too. but now you're just making assumptions about people; you're basically saying anyone who enjoyed discussing Lost on the internet doesn't spend enough time doing anything "active", like taking a walk. is that your main issue with the whole thing? you think people need to spend more time off their computers and stuff? because i'd say spending time discussing and theorizing complicated television shows could be construed as a creative act in itself, which is healthy in stride.

[KasperKristensen]

No that's not my main thing here and I was really just taking a shot.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Lost struck me a show that never was thought through, they were making it up as they go along. It was like those round robin stories where somebody writes one chapter, then with no plot outline, just what was written previously, writes the next chapter, then comes the next writer and does the same thing.This. The complaints about Lost weren't caused by an audience who created an unattainable need for closure. They were caused by undisciplined writing that got away from the showrunners, turned into its own smoke monster and thrashed them. Poetic, but sort of unsatisfying for the viewers.

Lost aside though, I think the internet can be expected to raise the quality of tv. Audience feedback is, as the OP states, at an all time high, but I believe in most cases it provides support for the people who actually created the show, which they can then use as ammo in meetings with tv execs who have LONG underestimated the intellect of the viewing public.

[Yoda]

While I agree that Lost got a little out of control, I don't really hold it against them that they were "making it up." 95% of all shows are more or less made up as they go along. It's the odd Babylon 5 or whatever that actually lays the whole thing out in advance. I don't mind that they only plotted so far ahead in Lost, I just mind some of the decisions that led to.

[will.15]

Most shows are not serialized and in the case of Lost built on a mystery. They should have had at least a broad outline where it was going and how it would get there, but they didn't. It was basically one continuous story, but it was like much of the time the writers, like the audience, had no idea what would happen next.

[ash_is_the_gal]

While I agree that Lost got a little out of control, I don't really hold it against them that they were "making it up." 95% of all shows are more or less made up as they go along. It's the odd Babylon 5 or whatever that actually lays the whole thing out in advance. I don't mind that they only plotted so far ahead in Lost, I just mind some of the decisions that led to.

i think Lost should have been held to a higher standard, mainly because it isn't the typical show that would wrap everything up within a season. the whole point of the show, and a big reason why it was so popular, was because there was so much mystery. i never watched the show, but i've heard a few Lost fans say that every episode would answer a question but also raise an even bigger question.

i think if a show's whole purpose is to slowly lead up to a final moment at the very end of the series, they shouldn't simply be writing as they go along.

maybe that was the shortcoming.

[earlsmoviepicks]

I believe the immediacy of the internet is hurting the quality of writing. We now have a generation of YouTube surfers, which accounts for the fill-a-house-with-Type A's-feed-em-booze-and-turn-on-the-camera- type reality shows.

Thank god for smart writers like David Milch, at least there's a few bright spots out there...

[happycyclist]

Nothing is hurting the quality of writing. Reality shows are not written.

[earlsmoviepicks]

Exactly.

Nothing is hurting the quality of writing. Reality shows are not written.

[happycyclist]

Yeah, but, rubbish television isn't a new thing. I don't think scripted dramas/comedies have decreased in numbers, have they? They certainly haven't decreased in quality.

Also various people have said YouTube is an 'alternative' to TV now. In what way? Are there scripted shows on it that aren't depressing?

[Yoda]

I think the problem is that there are more channels -- and therefore shows -- than ever. Which is why it can simultaneously seem as if there's more great TV and more crappy TV than ever before.