The Role Of Parents

[John McClane]

This was an interesting idea/thought I had earlier tonight and I figured I'd churn it out while I was still grooving on it.

Based on what I've seen growing up, I think the role that parents are playing in their kids lives is just all wrong. Now what I mean by this will make more sense in a moment but before I get to that I want to address what made me come up with this thought.

I had a relatively easy childhood. My needs were provided for like school supplies, new clothes, and food/shelter. Then again, a large portion of my wants were also provided for as well. In short, I was spoiled.

As I aged, I was fortunate enough to be living in an environment where right and wrong was clearly laid out for me. However, these sorts of life lessons were applied lessons. Caught stealing...told it was wrong. Caught looking at pornography...told it was wrong. Caught lying...told it was wrong. Etc. etc. Eventually, my childhood turned into a game of "avoid getting caught."

Now I do not mean to say I was not lectured to or not punished, as both were done to me. Instead, my parents took the role of authoritative figures who commanded and instructed. This is where my parents fundamentally flawed me, and I believe this to be a serious problem that faces society today.

Once again, I was lucky enough to have an influence in my life that helped me along the way: the Boy Scouts. In this organization, I was given lectures/lessons on the very same things I received at home, except this time the method was much different. I was an equal and we discussed the reasoning behind some of the most basic moral decisions one might be presented with in normal day life (stealing, lying, etc.). In other words, I was given tools to analyze the situation.

However, as great as this organization was in helping me, I was still handicapped moving forward in life. Naturally, I made a lot of mistakes. Some mistakes I would learn from and others I would repeat numerous times. The best example that comes to mind is sexuality. Now I'd rather not get into specifics but I was ill equipped to handle any of the situations individuals typically find themselves in while growing up. I made some choices that I regret dearly but I think these mistakes could have been so easily avoided. My parents' method of raising me never addressed the issue (deal with problems as they arise and leave everything else unspoken), my school's sex ed class certainly never addressed the issue, and neither did the Boy Scouts (both school and Scouts dealt with the mechanics, as most people might already realize). This is what I want to focus on: the gaps created while raising kids.

There is no perfect way to raise a kid, and I feel this is key to the discussion at hand. Authoritative parents can produce bad and good kids, and parents who provide their kids with the same tools the Scouts provided me can produce bad and good kids, as well. However, this does not mean that one way shouldn't be favored over the other, as I clearly think it should be.

I feel that the role of parents is, in fact, twofold: one, to present authoritative figures that should be respected and honored. Two, to provide their children with the tools capable of ascertaining right and wrong for themselves. Well, how should we go about this? Once again, there is no perfect method but I believe an important point should be made that in order to provide tools to your kids...fear will not do. The authoritative figure has to melt away at some point in a child's, leaving behind someone who's open and willing to discuss important and unimportant issues. The goal is to minimize and shorten the gaps that are so common while growing up and I feel that authoritative figureheads are just not equipped well enough to do so.

Any thoughts? Do authoritative parents get the job done? Is there a better way? Are there really any gaps to speak of in rearing? If so, are they dangerous and how do we minimize them? If not, why are people so screwed up these days? :D

[will.15]

When you have kids you can raise them any way you want and don't be surprised if they complain about your parenting skills.

[mark f]

Well, I thought I was raised fairly but I was rarely given any practical advice from my parents about things which were beyond my age. Sure, I was corporally punished for doing whatever things were considered wrong but I was rarely sat down and explained in a calm manner why what I did was wrong except for maybe "lack of discipline" or something along those lines.

Now, since Brenda and I have raised who we consider the best-adjusted child in the history of the world (HA!), sarah f here at this site, age 19, I have some other things to say and add to this subject.

Growing up, I did learn a lot about the world, morals, "right and wrong" etc. from the movies. I've been exposed to the censored views and the let everything rip views since I was born at the height of censorship but spent most of my life during the "opening-up" period. I never thought that I abused Sarah by having her watch certain "adult" films at a relatively early age. By adult, I mean that she watched A Clockwork Orange and The Exorcist when she was about 13. (As a teacher, I know of five-year-olds today who regularly watch hardcore porno and the Saw films on a daily basis!) So, movies have always been a teaching tool for me, and I've tried to watch most all significant movies with Sarah when she was here at home so that I could answer her questions and try to explain her silences. We've also read out loud books with her as a family. These would include the Bible as well as Catcher in the Rye. So, I haven't really sheltered Sarah from the world which art opens up to one, but when she encounted reality which she may not have actually seen in art, she did seem to react to it in what I would call appropriately-ethical ways.

I try to teach all my students at school in similar ways I taught my own child. I realize that the parents are supposed to be in charge of raising their own kids, but since most all of my students are troubled in one way or another, I try to break down the barriers a bit and talk to them as if I was their parent. It really seems to work too because you can see some tough kids come in who think everything in the world is crap, but after you talk straight with them, they let down their toughness to reveal a scared child who still hasn't really grown up because they were never given a chance and had to start pulling crimes just to help support their family.

The main problem I have which occasionally causes roadblocks is trying to find the fine line where I am an authoritarian on one side and a trusted friend on the other. That's a problem with both parents and teachers, but you just have to try to fine tune it as the relationship(s) progress(es). So far, I think I'm winning the battle, and more importantly, I hope that Sarah and my students are too.

[John McClane]

When you have kids you can raise them any way you want and don't be surprised if they complain about your parenting skills.And ya know what? I'll gladly buck up, shut up, and listen.

[christine]

Hi John. Interesting question. There is no perfect way to raise a kid cos there are no perfect people!
You'll realise once you have kids that being a parent is a bloody difficult job at times, one which ranges from busting with pride at something your kid's done to dealing with some issues that leave you lying awake with worry in bed at night...and maybe even worse if you're unlucky!

You can't adopt too prescriptive a stance on parenthood before you have kids. You can decide what kind of a parent you want to be, what boundaries your kids will have, what behaviours you feel easy and happy with, and then when they come along you have to go on a day by day basis as situations come up. That's how little kids learn, from how you deal with events and what guidance you give them.

Don't forget that each child is different too. Like Mark and his relationship with Sarah, I think that my sons (ages 23 and 28) are well balanced too. I'm certainly close friends with them even though they don't live at home. When they need advice they turn to me, they often ring just for a chat and we see lots of them and their girls. I take that as being a sign that they respect and love me, so I think me and my husband have done a pretty good job. Both lads have got good jobs, loving relationships and a curiousity and love of life.
However they were (and are) both very different characters even when they were tiny, and what worked with one didn't work with the other always.
There were conflicts between us at times while they were growing up, but that's also how children learn to balance their own personalities against other peoples. It's better they learn to give and take in arguments, to know when to say sorry and when to stand their ground (cos parents aren't always right!) in their own house with people that are gonna love them whatever happens.

When I was growing up, I was taught right from wrong in a more authoritarian household than my own, but looking back my parents were still pretty fair. When I got to be a teenager my mum discussed stuff with me but never interfered in my life and never interrogated me the way some girls mums did - I think that's called trust. If there's one thing I hope I've learned from her as a parent is this, from when kids are tiny discuss everything with them, explain why things are right or wrong, instil it in them, then from an early age trust them to use their own judgment. If they do stupid things, it's not the end of the world, just be there for them, they'll learn from the situation.

So, John when you say "The authoritative figure has to melt away at some point in a child's, leaving behind someone who's open and willing to discuss important and unimportant issues". It's true, but that open person should be there from when a child is tiny too.

oh and another very important thing I've learned when your children are grown up - learn when to keep your mouth shut! There is a time when they're their own masters and too many parents these days try to interfere in their kids lives well into their 20s. They're grown up! unless they ask you for advice don't feel the need to give it anyway :D

[christine]

Do authoritative parents get the job done? Is there a better way? Are there really any gaps to speak of in rearing? If so, are they dangerous and how do we minimize them? If not, why are people so screwed up these days? :D

Just another thought on your last point. I've noticed in recent years, in the UK anyway, a lot more parents speak to their children in a really horrible way. I often hear parents screaming at their kids in the supermarket, and swearing at them in a way that'd be unthinkable when I was a kid and I was brought up in what would now be called the slums of Liverpool. Back in those days your parents might shout at you, even in public but not the shrieking vile stuff coming out of these parents mouths. Ok the kids might be being unruly, and who hasn't been a parent trying to cope with shopping and a toddler having a tantrum, but there's ways of dealing with that like taking them and going to sit outside or in the car for 10mins.
So how are these kids going to have respect for parents who treat them like that? Respect works both ways hey? does having parents like that screw kids up? I think so. :(

[John McClane]

Great reply, christine. Thanks. :)

[Dog Star Man]

My life has never really been "easy," and during a period of my pre- through mid-teen life I ascertained a "victim" mentality. When I was a child my mom and dad divorced. My dad was an unmedicated bipolar, narcissistic, psychopath, and my mom couldn't raise me because she had to go to work and practically "live" at school to get a better job so she could solely support herself and I. So instead her mother, my grandmother, got to raise me.

My grandmother's health was failing for the most part though, and one morning she came over for breakfast and had a stroke right in front of me, I was 12 years old. I panicked, called 911, then over the phone they asked me to reach in her throat and remove any blockage. I got half-way down when I felt like my being was changing... so I stopped. For a long time because of this I felt as if I had murdered her. (Though that feeling is gone through intensive therapy).

Then over the course of years everything around me kept dying. I had animals that were practically my only friends die on me. I had a 16-year-old friend die of stroke, and an 18-year-old friend, who was in the same "Special Day Classes" with me, was gunned down mercilessly by the police.

During this time in my life, I was also experiencing many problems with mental illness. I had numerous suicide attempts. In fits of paranoid-manic rage I threw desks, chairs, and brawled out teachers, being certainly convinced that they were a product of some divine and/or government program designed to harm me. I was taken to institutions to relieve my mind and keep myself and others out of harms way. These types of incidents have been on going throughout much of my life.

I really had no one to "raise me". Or should I say, my mom for the most part did what she could, but her bill was mostly devoted to medication, therapy, and trips to the hospital/asylum, to get me better.

So for me, what really raised me was therapy sessions. I learned from therapists what was good and bad behavior. Or a better term for me, what is the correct way of thinking, and the incorrect way of thinking. And because of this, I like to think I'm a better person. Some have parents, some don't. Some have The Boy Scouts, some don't, (I viewed it as a religious organization, and as an Atheist, I didn't want to attend, though it's fine if people do all the same). Me, I had pills, therapy, and hospitals... that's been my life, all my life.

Going to add, that "victim" mentality is gone now thanks to therapy, and I've been able to push on with "life".

[John McClane]

Thanks for sharing that, dude. :up: It must have been tough.

I think one of the greatest things Movie Forums has done for me was get me in touch with people who really have had tough lives. Most of the people I know have had it fairly easy compared to myself but that's silly to say. No one really does have it easy, I think.

[planet news]

I did. u jelly?

[John McClane]

I did. u jelly?

You opened the door, amigo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8MDNFaGfT4

[rufnek]

OK, kids don't come with instruction books for parents and probably wouldn't be all that useful anyway, written by someone else. But by the time you're old enough to be a parent, you ought to at least have some common sense based on what you've seen, read, experienced from your parents and other adults while you were growing up.

Two things that I consider to be the worst sort of mistakes parents can make seem common among younger people these days. The first is yelling at their kids and expecting them to comply. This is particularly true for the parent shouting, "Don't make me get up and come over there." That tells the kid his parent is extremely unlikely to get up and come over there unless the kid sets the furniture on fire. No, when someone yells threats at a child or another adult, they're just venting. If they were going to do it, they wouldn't tell you what they're gonna do--they'd just come over without a word and knock you on your ass. The world's safest kid is the one whose parents give a countdown to retribution. "I'm going to count to 10 and if you haven't quit choking your brother by then, you're gonna be in big trouble, mister!" Kid knows he can keep choking his brother to the count of 9, then stop and not be punished. He can then wait a few moments and start choking his sibling again until his parents finally see what's happening and start the countdown all over again.

The other big mistakes parents--and especially dads with sons--make is that they try to be the kid's buddy or at least a playmate. Dads particularly seem to like fake wrestling and fighting with their sons. But what happens when the boy hits Aunt Ethel's cat with an ax, and you decide he should be punished? If you spank a kid for punishment, will he understand this is different from the play fights? Or will he haul off and punch you below the belt because he thinks you're just playing rough? Your kid has a playground full of playmates and buddies, but only one dad and mom so act the part.

I'm a great believer in corporal punishment--spanking kids. That's how my parents were raised, that's the way I was raised, that's the way I raised my kids although I spank them far less than I and my brothers were spanked. But then I and my brothers were a hell of a lot rougher than them. My daughter I spanked only 3 times her whole life; Usually if I just said, "I'm really disappointed in what you've done," she'd break into tears. But my sons were like me and my brothers--had to hit us in the head with a 2X4 just to get our attention (that just figuratively--I never was hit nor hit anyone with a 2x4, although I was the only one who ever tried to duke it out with my dad on several occasions in my teens. As the line goes in Man of La Mancha, whether the pitcher hits the rock or the rock hits the pitcher, it's going to be bad for the pitcher.")

I got my first lesson in parenting when I was 6 or younger. Many friends and relatives in whose homes we visited often had knick-knacks of some type sitting around the parlor or such, and I learned at a very young age that the safest thing I could do was keep my hands in my pockets and don't touch any of that. As a result, many people told my parents over the years that what they liked most about our visits is that they didn't have to put things up to keep us from breaking them--that we put our hands in our pockets and didn't touch. On the other hand, I often heard my parents say after a visiting family left our house, "God, I thought they'd never leave--those kids were the worst behaved I've ever seen." Those two examples got drummed into my head so often that when I had kids, I made sure they were on their best behavior outside the house and in front of other adults. If they reached for anything they got swatted. I was determined I was not going to have my kids talked about negatively. Even my second father-in-law who didn't like much about me at all, once told me, "The one thing I have to give you is your kids are well behaved."

Where my kids lucked out was in having a dad who had been something of a hell raiser in his childhood and teens. No matter how my kids might be acting at any one point, how they cut their hair, what sort of clothes they wore, I'd ask myself, "What was I doing when I was that age?" And it was always something much worse than they were up to, so I'd figure they weren't so unreasonable after all.

The best advice I ever had on parenting was from my dad when we were expecting my first child. He told me, "Any time you say to a child you're gonna do something, make damn sure you do it. Whether it's 'I'm gonna buy you a pony' or 'I'm gonna beat the crap out of you when I get you home.' It's important for your child to know you're gonna do what you say--that he can depend on you." Another thing he said, "Never punish a child when you're angry." Simple reason being you may over-react and you can really hurt a child, physically or verbally. Of course, that's hard to do. He didn't always succeed, and neither did I. Third thing he told me, "No matter what has happened during the day, make sure he knows you love him." That doesn't mean just come in as they're going to bed and say, "I love you." That means giving a kid a pat on the back, ruffle his hair, smile at him, say something nice, read him a book, help with his homework, go to openhouse at the school and to the Scout meetings, let him know you're proud of things he does. Tell him in your words, your touch, your tone of voice and your actions several times every day that he is loved. One mistake fathers often make is not hugging their sons. Some won't even hug their daughters. I'm big on hugging, myself--I hug my kids, my grandkids, my brothers, my dad each time I see them and each time we separate. And when we talk on the phone, my last words in our conversation is, "I love you." It's important to me that they know that--that they never doubt it for a moment.

[John McClane]

rufnek: :highfive:

[rufnek]

My life has never really been "easy," and during a period of my pre- through mid-teen life I ascertained a "victim" mentality.

It takes strength and dedication to survive what life can throw at us. You sound like a survivor to me.
And many of us have had varying degrees of therapy these days. That can be very helpful in determining how you should and want to live your life.

Has anyone said or do you have any idea how much of your particular hardships came from nurture (or more likely the lack of it) with your dad's own physical problems and your mom struggling to make ends meet and your grandma's death, vs. some medical or mental problems such as the "mental illness" you mentioned? We're all influenced to various degrees by nature and nurture.

Anyway, hang tough. And as for suicide, remember the best revenge is living well.

[rufnek]

rufnek: :highfive:

That's not corporal punishment, is it? :laugh: Sorry, I couldn't resist! Thanks for the good thought.

[honeykid]

The role of parents? Do their best not to **** their kids up. Try their best to prepare their children for the life they'll have outside the family. Let them know that they're there for them no matter what. Try not to feel guilty if, despite all their best efforts, it all goes **** up and their kids **** up anyway.

[planet news]

My general ideas of a good parent:

0. Before all this, I'm assuming the parents in question are pretty much decent people who can control themselves to a tolerable degree and feel an obligation to unceasingly support their kids' subsistence for around 18-20 years, more or less depending on the situation.

1. What parents say goes. Period. I mean this even for political opinions, religion etc. The kid will naturally learn to resent this irrationality while obeying---a crucial aspect of living freely in any society. The kid will rebel silently and gain their intellectual/emotional independence without showing immediate disrespect. Discipline and punishment should be a simple grounding: restricting motility and typically "fun" activity---encourage reading and self-reflection. The kid will emerge independent and naturally skeptical of social institutions/figures of authority without being a dissident (at least initially).

2. No yelling. Just say things firmly and arrogantly dismiss replies (what my parents were like). It just makes the kid feel like an idiot for even saying anything: the kid ends up either refuting himself or at least going through his own argument to make sure it is sound---often not! On the rare occasions that the kid is correct, he will just take it as another sign that his parents are too jaded, too cynical, or too conservative (a fair, respectful critique). Basic thesis: the kid will think critically for himself if the parents are firm.

3. Parents shouldn't dote on their kids excessively. Doing so discourages self-betterment. Self-esteem comes most naturally by having real accomplishments.

4. Parents should never discourage a kids' desire to improve themselves unless they absolutely have to or the kid is just talking dangerous nonsense like being a rock star---unless they demonstrate a considerable talent that is widely verified and recognized not just by them.

5. Parents should take a fairly neutral stance on their kids' future. They should lay out the risks and rewards but also occasionally emphasize the importance of risk taking and fidelity to one's dreams.

6. Parents shouldn't buy their kids things unless they 1) need it 2) have a very, very, very good reason for wanting it. The parent should readily ridicule their children's desire for material items such as "the latest" this or that. The parent should encourage a historical approach to artistic products, always emphasizing the wealth of material preceding those of the present. The parent should stay away from time extremely time consuming products such as video games. The parent should never give an allowance without a set of work procedures to "earn" it.

7. Parents should talk about contraception and that's it. I'm 100% convinced that the intricacies of sexuality should and can be learned through friends/health class/or, if all else fails/on the internet. Nothing that awkward and unsettling can be healthy!

8. Parents should never lose their cool. It makes them look like clowns. The effect on the kids' perception of them is analogous to police brutality on the mass populace. My parents were generally pretty good in this regard. They preferred biting remarks and sarcasm to yelling (makes the kid feel so dumb---trust me, I know). But when they did yell, they always just came off as taking out their stress from the day and a general display of weakness.

9. Parents shouldn't censor their kids from very much, if anything. I think that, at around 10-12, a kid is pretty much ready for most things. If your kid goes to a public or private school, they will pretty much know most things anyway. I think this is a perfectly natural and very healthy way of discovering most things.

10. Parents should answer their kids questions (to a limit---I'm thinking Louis C.K.s stand-up here) but always with "I think/I'm not sure but" when they are not themselves sure or else they're just spreading nonsense which the kid might believe for years if not questioned.

[earlsmoviepicks]

PN, good stuff there. I agree. In terms of music or other talents, I would show my kid acknowledgement more for improvement than just glow over any little thing they've done. Although I don't want to dash anyone's hopes, this "everyone's a winner" thing gets me just a little sick....

I agree with the no yelling, although I do not stick to it. I will yell to shut them up sometimes. ("Parents are not interested in justice. Parents are interested in quiet." ---Bill Cosby)
Maybe it's not right, but....whatever. Quiet is nice sometimes.

The only thing I would censor is sexual stuff, for the only reason that they're far from that age yet, so it is beyond their experience.

I believe a parent should be loose enough to give the kid freedom to become their own person, but be vigilant of warning signs of laziness, self-deception, misplaced anger, bad habits etc. and step in when they see a need for correction.

[rufnek]

My general ideas of a good parent:

0. Before all this, I'm assuming the parents in question are pretty much decent people who can control themselves to a tolerable degree and feel an obligation to unceasingly support their kids' subsistence for around 18-20 years, more or less depending on the situation.

1. What parents say goes. Period. I mean this even for political opinions, religion etc. The kid will naturally learn to resent this irrationality while obeying---a crucial aspect of living freely in any society. The kid will rebel silently and gain their intellectual/emotional independence without showing immediate disrespect. Discipline and punishment should be a simple grounding: restricting motility and typically "fun" activity---encourage reading and self-reflection. The kid will emerge independent and naturally skeptical of social institutions/figures of authority without being a dissident (at least initially).

2. No yelling. Just say things firmly and arrogantly dismiss replies (what my parents were like). It just makes the kid feel like an idiot for even saying anything: the kid ends up either refuting himself or at least going through his own argument to make sure it is sound---often not! On the rare occasions that the kid is correct, he will just take it as another sign that his parents are too jaded, too cynical, or too conservative (a fair, respectful critique). Basic thesis: the kid will think critically for himself if the parents are firm.

3. Parents shouldn't dote on their kids excessively. Doing so discourages self-betterment. Self-esteem comes most naturally by having real accomplishments.

4. Parents should never discourage a kids' desire to improve themselves unless they absolutely have to or the kid is just talking dangerous nonsense like being a rock star---unless they demonstrate a considerable talent that is widely verified and recognized not just by them.

5. Parents should take a fairly neutral stance on their kids' future. They should lay out the risks and rewards but also occasionally emphasize the importance of risk taking and fidelity to one's dreams.

6. Parents shouldn't buy their kids things unless they 1) need it 2) have a very, very, very good reason for wanting it. The parent should readily ridicule their children's desire for material items such as "the latest" this or that. The parent should encourage a historical approach to artistic products, always emphasizing the wealth of material preceding those of the present. The parent should stay away from time extremely time consuming products such as video games. The parent should never give an allowance without a set of work procedures to "earn" it.

7. Parents should talk about contraception and that's it. I'm 100% convinced that the intricacies of sexuality should and can be learned through friends/health class/or, if all else fails/on the internet. Nothing that awkward and unsettling can be healthy!

8. Parents should never lose their cool. It makes them look like clowns. The effect on the kids' perception of them is analogous to police brutality on the mass populace. My parents were generally pretty good in this regard. They preferred biting remarks and sarcasm to yelling (makes the kid feel so dumb---trust me, I know). But when they did yell, they always just came off as taking out their stress from the day and a general display of weakness.

9. Parents shouldn't censor their kids from very much, if anything. I think that, at around 10-12, a kid is pretty much ready for most things. If your kid goes to a public or private school, they will pretty much know most things anyway. I think this is a perfectly natural and very healthy way of discovering most things.

10. Parents should answer their kids questions (to a limit---I'm thinking Louis C.K.s stand-up here) but always with "I think/I'm not sure but" when they are not themselves sure or else they're just spreading nonsense which the kid might believe for years if not questioned.

You use a few terms that bother me as a parent, such as "arrogantly dismiss replies . . . It just makes the kid feel like an idiot for even saying anything:" Another term you used about "biting remarks and sarcasm makes the kid feel so dumb" is of the same sort.

It's been my observance that kids learn more from what a parent does than what a parent says, and I sure wouldn't want my kids to learn arrogant dismissals and biting remarks from me, especially if it "makes the kid feel like an idiot for even saying anything." As I've told journalism students the hardest question to ask is the "dumb" question, but if you don't ask it and get the information you need you're almost certain to sound dumb in the article you write. Same thing is true in spades for your own children. It's vital to keep the lines of communication open--you start making them feel dumb about something they say and they will start avoiding saying anything around you. You never know how something you say may affect a child--when my wife was a little girl, she was singing one day and her father told her she had a lousy singing voice. Her mother claims he was just kidding, but she has never sang since. I've known her 20 years and have never known her so much as hum a tune, not even in the shower. People sing the national anthem, and she stands silently.

Another area in which I disagree is your statement "Parents shouldn't censor their kids from very much, if anything. I think that, at around 10-12, a kid is pretty much ready for most things." There may be some kids "ready for most things" at 10 but I've never known one. I agree kids are exposed to more at a younger age than when I was a kid or even my own kids were that age. But being exposed to it and having the ability to put it into perspective and deal with it are two very different things. There's no "one size" of anything that fits every kid, but I doubt if many--or any--10 to 12 year olds have the experience and sophistication to make the best choices on many important matters. Even things like picking friends--my younger brother used to complain to my dad, "You're always picking my friends for me," to which my dad replied, "No, you can pick 'em. But I'm damn sure going to cull them for you." The thing about being a parent is that you sometimes have to say no and make it stick, even when they swear up and down they'll hate you forever over it. You sometimes have to impose your better judgment over their bad judgment if only so they'll be around long enough to learn the difference between the two.

[Yoda]

Yeah, I'd probably quibble with a few things in planet's list, too, but I agree with a fair bit of it, too. And really, we're talking about raising kids; it'd be kind of shocking if any of us agreed completely about how it ought to be done. But you both get rep from me. :)

Of course, I'm no parent, but I'm the oldest of seven kids and in any household where the kids more than triple the number of adults, the older ones are expected to defect at a pretty young age, so I feel like I've got a decent handle on what it might be like. My parents are divorced and both are remarried, too, so I've had the opportunity to live under several sets of rules in different households.

Re: making kids feel "dumb." I think the disagreement here is partially (though not entirely) in the wording. Not too many people would ever suggest that a parent should actively try to make their kid feel dumb...but would many people disagree with the idea that causing a child to feel self-reflective shame at a genuinely inappropriate remark is the ideal way to discourage such things? Kids often say and do things that they should be ashamed of, and parents have a responsibility to make this clear to the child. I'd say causing the child to be emotionally and/or intellectually persuaded that they shouldn't do something is clearly optimal, even for people who believe in spanking (of which I am one, by the way).

All that said, it's a pretty fine line, and the effects of crossing it can be substantial. I'm still stunned at how little parents (even great parents!) always realize how much an offhand comment, like the one about singing that ruf describes, can devastate a child. Even loving, caring, reflective parents can lose sight of this from time to time, I think. This is even more true of generally caring parents, because a caring parent is a parent the child's probably going to respect more, and whose opinion they'll hold in higher regard.

Anyway, I don't know yet if I'll end up having kids, but I've thought a lot about what it all entails. I feel like, if I could make only one suggestion to a prospective parent, I would not give them an instruction, but provide them with a fact: your kid will pay a ton of attention to what you do. I feel like a conscientious person who is able to keep this at the front of their mind most of the time will probably be at least a decent parent, and when they're not, it'll be because they're forgetting that their words and actions can bounce around in the child's mind like an echo chamber for years.

The only potentially controversial thing I have to say, really, is that I absolutely, positively do not believe in letting children figure out all sorts of things for themselves. No offense intended to anyone who's taken this route; I've merely seen too many people whose parents were more or less "hands off" who do not use that freedom to explore alternative thoughts and become more well-rounded individuals, but simply end up filling the vacuum their parents leave with some other parental surrogate, be it a boyfriend/girlfriend, a time-consuming hobby, a social circle, or what have you. Something always goes there. You can't not have a dramatic effect on a kid. Even your attempt not to will end up doing so, in a different (read: worse) way.

Oh, and I agree roughly one billion percent with the comments about not trying to be your child's friend. I'm friends with my parents now because they didn't try to be my friends before.

[mark f]

The thing which is so difficult for a parent (and teacher) is that you present yourself as an authority figure and someone to look up to. You also present yourself as a calm, rational mother/father figurehead. Now, unless you are a Buddha/Jesus, there's no way that everything you tell and show to your child can always be correct. It's just not possible as a flawed human being to always do the right thing, so now you're left with the thought (guilt?) of trying to confess your own "sins" to your beloved offspring while trying to teach them NOT to do what you just may have done. Maybe you were in a car accident or you got fired or somebody died or is very sick or maybe you are the one who's sick and in pain. You have to admit that you generally feel and act differently when these "everyday trials" occur, so unless you are an Award-Winning Parent or Actor, you can't really hide your flawed feelings from your children, but at what age do they actually understand that there may be a contradiction between "Do as I say and not as I do."?

The other thing for me which is so worrisome is something which ruffy said earlier about "playing" with your kids. Playing is very healthy, for both the child and the parent. The child learns to trust the parent and to enjoy (love) being with him or her, while the parent is allowed to test and improve the physical abilities of their child just by playing. Playing also includes that thing which is ofen counterproductive to discipline: the fact that laughing is generally healthy and conducive to closeness. Trust me, at my age now, I'd much rather make my children/students laugh than cry. I think they will trust me far more if I succeed at that, and I think that's the bottom line with parenting. You have to cultivate your child's trust. I realize that if you do something "illegal" in front of them that could be a bad way for a parent to act, but then again, I believe parenting supercedes legality, even though I've seen plenty of horrible parents who only do "illegal" activities which encourage their progeny to follow in their footsteps.

Nowadays, you can do things which were illegal previously and you cannot do things which were legal previously. It's sort of like the concept of slavery or apartheid. What does legality have to do with it if it's wrong or right in some ethical universe? It doesn't. Many of Our Founding "Fathers" in this great nation owned slaves and thought it was the right thing to do while they were still trying to thrash out our country's manifesto (original documents). Maybe they knew in their hearts they were wrong, but thought that forming a complete union was better than having a smaller one located in the Northeast. Of course, push came to shove during our Civil War, but the fact remains. Were our Founding Fathers good parents to both their own progeny and our own? That just makes being a parent all the more tougher, and it seems to adapt to a sliding scale the more mature your child grows. I'm going to shut down because I seem to be outrunning myself until I hear any responses.

[rufnek]

. . . so unless you are an Award-Winning Parent or Actor, you can't really hide your flawed feelings from your children, but at what age do they actually understand that there may be a contradiction between "Do as I say and not as I do."?

It's not a matter of the child understanding the contradiction between what you say and what you do. The primary point is that the child sees your behavior day after day. Most grownups who are smokers have kids who become smokers even if Mom and Dad tell them over and over it's a nasty habit and they shouldn't do it. No, it doesn't happen in every case and there are people who become smokers even if their parents weren't, but the problem has been studied enough to show that there is a connection with what children see as acceptable behavior by their parents. Same thing with racial slurs and stereotypes; if you say the n-word at home, it won't do much good to tell your kid he shouldn't say it on the playground.

The other thing for me which is so worrisome is something which ruffy said earlier about "playing" with your kids. Playing is very healthy, for both the child and the parent.

Again there is play and there is play. I'm not saying you can't roll the ball to your toddler or play catch with your older chidren, and board games are great for family evenings together with the TV off. But I've also seen parents carry that too far to the point of being so concerned about being a child's pal or playmate that they forget to be the child's parent. Any time you get to the point (as I have seen some do) that you're afraid to discipline your child for inappropriate action because you then might not be his best buddy or he won't want to play catch anymore, then you've got your priorities wrong. It's even worse when dads rough-house with their sons to the point of exchanging blows. If a child becomes accustomed to that type of interplay, the first time you swat his fanny for punishment or just grab his arm to prevent him from stomping off in a tantrum, there's a good chance he'll come back swinging at you because that's what he's learned in all those rough-housing sessions. If he can hit his dad back when they're "playing" then why not when dad is trying to discipline him?"

I've also known some fathers competing with their sons, so that a game of catch becomes an ordeal of dodging dad's sizzling fast ball. I've got nothing against parents occasionally playing with their children--they wouldn't be human or would be complete fools if they didn't. And you can direct them to games that stimulate both their minds and bodies. But even at play, it's important to retain your role as parent, so the child knows this is mom or dad playing with me, not an equal peer. As I said, a child can make his own friends and playmates, but his mother and father are unique positions of both authority and love. That is a position a parent should never surrender.

I believe parenting supercedes legality

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds something like "the Ma Barker School of Parenting" :). About as effective as after 16 years of riding with dad as he lead-foots down the highway at 75-80 mph and then getting his advice to "drive carefully" the day you get your license and take the family car out alone for the first time.

It's sort of like the concept of slavery or apartheid. What does legality have to do with it if it's wrong or right in some ethical universe?

There have been many things in many lands that were declared legal or done in the name of authority that were wrong moraly. War is about as immoral a thing as there can be, but it has been legalized and accepted for centuries. As for our founding fathers, some were good parents and some were not. George Washington had no children of his own. Ben Franklin had an illigitimate son with whom he was extremely close as the boy was growing up, but in the Revolution Ben sided with the rebels against the king and his son was a loyalist; the two ended up not speaking or otherwise communicationg with each other. Thomas Jefferson who was prouder of writing the Declaration of Independence that declares "all men are created equal" than he was of being president, had children by both his white wife and his black mistress. And while Washington said in his will his slaves were to be freed after his wife Martha died, Jefferson made no provision of freeing his slaves, some of whom were his own offspring. (Washington's stipulation that the slaves were to be freed only after his wife's death was because his slaves represented a major investment and a large part of the inheritance he left to his wife. Freeing them at his death would have left her virtually penniless with a large estate and no one to work it.)

However, none of that makes parenting today any tougher, in my opinion. I don't care what kind of father was Franklin or Jefferson or Lincoln or Lee or any other famous person down through history because the time I'm living in is entirely different from theirs. It doesn't even matter to me what kind of father you or any one else in this forum may be, because we have no direct effect on each other, either. All I care about is being the best father and grandfather I can. I've already made mistakes, some large and some small. All of my children were by former wives, my daughter by my first, my two sons by my second. My daughter was three when her mom and I divorced. She's told me she doesn't remember and can't imagine her mom and me ever being married. My sons were in their teens when their mom and I separated. Would things had been better for them had I stayed and fought with that woman or was it better to leave so they had at least one rational parent? They've told me it all worked out for the better and said it had no ill effect on them. But is it true? I don't know. All I can say is do the best you can, realize your mistakes and try to correct them. But if at the end of the day your kids know you love them and they can count on you to stand behind them, then that's about as much as you can hope for.

[mack]

This is a really interesting thread, and I gotta say - I'm thoroughly enjoying reading it.

Only thing I can add is that I disagree with approx 90% of Planet's post, and agree with probably 90% of Yoda's post, and agree with 98% of Christine's and Ruf's posts.

Corporal punishment? Absolutely. My parents always said - better for me to punish (i.e. spank) you now, than for the police to do it later. Frankly, a small child's world is very concrete, and at a certain age fear of physical pain modifies behavior in a way that nothing else can - and I know from personal fact that even this fear of corporal punishment only lasts so long (assuming you dont have an abusive or violent parent). God help you if your children don't respect you enough by then. THAT's when you find parents screaming vile things at their children or being publicly humiliated by their children - they havent instilled in their child that respect, or barring respect, the outright fear of crossing certain thresholds of behavior. My sibs and our friends all laugh about it today, but we all agree that all our mothers ever had to do to any of us was give us a certain look, and all inappropriate behavior ceased immediately. And then you were so well-behaved you prayed she forgot about that lapse in judgment.

As an adult, I do commend my mother in that she always told us she loved us before any spanking, and reasonably laid out why we were getting spanked. So reasonable was she in this kindly explanation that it would drive you up the wall - i mean at days end, you ARE getting a spanking after this, right?? The killer is that both she and my father would make us tell them (and whomsoever else) we were sorry and hug them afterwards, and endure their professions of love, before sending us to our rooms.

There came a time in my life that I realized (this is when I was a young teen) that I could do whatever I wanted, and no matter what my parents did to me, they could not truly stop me - and the only thing holding me back from bringing them a world of (emotional) pain was, well.... me. It was my older brother who ushered in the knowledge of this exciting fact (though it could have just been bravado on his part), when he would take his licks, as it were, and come back like it was nothing. Or, rather - it was something, but just marginally unpleasant. Then he told me "you know it doesnt hurt that bad." Well. There was that. The only drawback was that none of us really had anything against our parents, nor were the things we did against their rules (by that age) truly meant to be done, or discovered. No true malice or real disrespect there. So one particular time, when my mother was so angry with me, she was of a mind to spank me (I was her size by then), I was so shocked that I just told her it was unreasonable, because it would hurt. I said: "Mom! Seriously? This is just too much. You DO know this is going to hurt right?" I confess, she was truly the image of spitting fury - incoherently angry, and I realized I had deeply offended her, so I apologized (I was truly sorry).

It was at that time that she told me that she was so angry that she was beside herself, and that apparently I was so oblivious a numbskull (my words! :D) that I wasnt getting it - and short of flying into a violent rage, which is how she felt, the only way to communicate that I had gone too far was too spank me. I hadnt meant to be offensive (despite that this was the X time Id done it against her will -you just never know when that last straw will break). :shrug: Whoops. My bad! So I escaped a spanking and that day went down in infamy in the family as the day Mack talked Mom out of spanking her.....and was consequently never truly spanked by her again. The only spankings I received after that from her were nominal hand slaps (no really - they were actual hand slaps), with the mutual understanding that it was her way of communicating that I had gone too far and that she was furiously angry.

Nowadays? She sometimes just gives me a look and says, "I want to spank you."

Dad? Well that was a consistent guy. Never wanted to spank himself (you know those families where the Mother is like "I'm telling your Father and he's going to deal with you!"), but if you were promised a spanking, you could talk reasonably to him for hours and try to talk him out of it. To no avail. :nope: A precise 3 licks via belt on the rear, same M.O. every time. Nothing to look forward to. Which is why we always ended up negotiating with our Mother, or casting ourselves upon her whimsical and merciful nature - once she got him on board, it was no turning back, so you always ended up trying to convince her it wasnt a "Dad" problem. The one thing I'll give him is that you could sit down with him and tell him that she was a crazy psycho lady and he would laugh and understand - still make you respect her, but listen and understand. (and ok......vice versa as well.) To this end, I really feel for children in 1 parent homes, because there is no one there to agree with them that their parent is crazy, and since all human beings are flawed, you need that validation some times.

[/rambling??]

[Dog Star Man]

It takes strength and dedication to survive what life can throw at us. You sound like a survivor to me.

Thank you. I try to look on the positive.

Has anyone said or do you have any idea how much of your particular hardships came from nurture (or more likely the lack of it) with your dad's own physical problems and your mom struggling to make ends meet and your grandma's death, vs. some medical or mental problems such as the "mental illness" you mentioned? We're all influenced to various degrees by nature and nurture.

To be honest, my doctors at UCLA think I'm a extremely rare case. In fact, it usually takes 3 to 5 years to get into their psychiatric center, but since hospitalization, they thought my case was so rare and extreme that they transferred me immediately. I have all the symptoms of bipolar, but I'm atypical, because my episodes of polarity are quick coming and extremely intense. Not to mention I exhibit signs of schizophrenia. Also, they put me on lithium, which seems to be working for me, but the normal dose is X2 400 mg doses... they tried that, my lithium levels were low... they moved me to X3... lithium levels were still low, (again this is unheard of)... so they moved me to X4... levels were STILL low... but it seems to be holding me okay, but again they don't know what the heck is going on. We've ruled out for the most part what is nature and nurture though. Years of good therapy have helped me in unimaginable ways, so I'm definitely "emotionally" healthy. I just have a mental illness, but I don't use it as a crutch, I just deal with it my doing all the right things and moving on with my life.

Anyway, hang tough. And as for suicide, remember the best revenge is living well.

Oh most definitely, thank you for your concern.

[rufnek]

Thank you. I try to look on the positive.



To be honest, my doctors at UCLA think I'm a extremely rare case. In fact, it usually takes 3 to 5 years to get into their psychiatric center, but since hospitalization, they thought my case was so rare and extreme that they transferred me immediately. I have all the symptoms of bipolar, but I'm atypical, because my episodes of polarity are quick coming and extremely intense. Not to mention I exhibit signs of schizophrenia. Also, they put me on lithium, which seems to be working for me, but the normal dose is X2 400 mg doses... they tried that, my lithium levels were low... they moved me to X3... lithium levels were still low, (again this is unheard of)... so they moved me to X4... levels were STILL low... but it seems to be holding me okay, but again they don't know what the heck is going on. We've ruled out for the most part what is nature and nurture though. Years of good therapy have helped me in unimaginable ways, so I'm definitely "emotionally" healthy. I just have a mental illness, but I don't use it as a crutch, I just deal with it my doing all the right things and moving on with my life.



Oh most definitely, thank you for your concern.

Damn, compared with you my life has been a walk in the park. It's nice to be "one for the books" but "one for the medical books" doesn't have the same charm! Good luck to you, kid.

[rufnek]

Corporal punishment? Absolutely. My parents always said - better for me to punish (i.e. spank) you now, than for the police to do it later.

I have mixed feelings about corporal punishment now I'm in my "old age." I got spanked and slapped by my parents and grandparents when growing up and all my friends had the same experience with their families, so I thought that was the way things were supposed to be. My parents were raised that way and I raised my kids that way. But I grew up with boys in my family, so when my daughter was born, I wasn't nearly as tough on her as I may have been with my sons when they came along later. I think I swatted my daughter with my bare hands only three times--once when she and her cousin were playing in the toilet (swatted both of them for that), once when she and this same cousin and the cousin's brother climbed up on the roof of my brother's car and were jumping up and down. Spanked her with my hand and let my brother deal with his kids. And once when I was putting her down for a nap and she threw a fit and started kicking--again spanked with my hand.

My sons got harder spankings because they were rougher and like me and my brothers, you practically had to hit them with a 2X4 just to get their attention. I think I may have used a belt on them a few times but only when they were wearing jeans, not on their bare legs. I never inflicted on them the type of punishment I frequently was subjected to by my mom--switching on the bare legs when we were running around in shorts during the hot summers. To add insult to injury, she'd send us out to cut the switches she'd use on us. We didn't dare bring back one too small or too frail because she'd go get one then with a diameter like your little finger.

My dad usually used a belt and man, he could sure make us dance and yell. He was in World War II in the Pacific, flying combat as a gunner on B-24s. And when he came back home, he didn't like for us to make loud noises, so we quickly learned that if we were getting too noisy in our play or arguments and he looked at us sternly, snapped his fingers and pointed to one of us, we'd get real quite real fast. At the time we lived next door to my maternal grandparents and I was the apple of my grandother's eye. She had three daughters and one son who died when he was about 11 or so, and after two granddaughters, I was her first grandson. As far as she was concerned I was the prince of the family. If I had chopped my little brother, she would have said, "Yes, but did you see how well he swung that ax? Like he's been doing it all his life." Anyway, she thought my dad was too rough and demanding on me and brother Don. She was always on my mom about it, telling her, "I wish he'd whip you sometime so you can see what it's like." She made the mistake of bringing it up to my dad once when he was preparing us for punishment. He invited her to get in line and he'd spank her, too, or else she could go home so as not to witness it. She summoned up her remaining dignity and marched out of the house and back home.

My dad had a sense of humor about smacking us. When we were pre-school and sharing the same bed, we'd start horsing around after they put us down, wrestling until one of us got knocked out bed or smashed a glass of water or knocked over a bedside table. As long as we were just giggling, we'd get an occasional warning from Mom and Dad, "Don't make me come in there!" But when we worked up to a creshendo of a body or table or glass hitting the floor, Dad would come in with his belt and the swatting, and yelping and crying would begin. Don and I would never learn and the next night we'd do it all again with the same sad result. So one night after we had our baths and were in our pajamas and about to go to bed, Dad informed us instead of going through the usual build-up the spankings would start immediately. And boy, he tore us each a new one! I learned that night it doesn't take long for a child to cry himself to sleep. That also put a damper on the nightly giggling and fighting if Dad was gonna go straight to the spanking with no horsing around in between.

Another time when we were older, in elementary school I think, Don and I were into rough-housing around, wrestling and slapping each other and had knocked over some lamps and vases in the process. So one summer day he comes home from work with two packages for us--boxing gloves! He tells us, "You boys are always fighting and hitting, so put on those boxing gloves and get out in the back yard and go to it." Well, we put on the gloves and attacked each other with gusto. We wouldn't get any points on style but we were swinging and the hits were adding up. So was the heat. So we decided we were tired and had enough for that day, so we'd quit boxing and play something else. That's when Dad, seated in the shade in a lawnchair with a cold drink, informed us he wasn't the least bit tired and we should keep fighting. We weren't punching so good after that and after a few more rounds we're begging him to let us stop. "Naw," he said, "you guys wanted to fight, now fight." I think there were a few moments when we really started punching hard, hoping that if one of us got knocked out, the match would be over. But we just didn't have enough punch or wind to accomplish that. When we finally got so weak we couldn't lift our hands any more, he finally called it a draw. As he carefully packed the gloves back in their boxes, he said, "You boys ever want to fight again, just let me know and I'll get the gloves out." I'm sure Don and I did take swings at each other again some day, but never where Mom or Dad could see us. And we never again put on boxing gloves.

I've only spanked one of my grandchildren, a granddaughter--actually, Lois' granddaughter by her son from an earlier marriage. We were baby-sitting her one day and she had just frazzled Lois' one remaining nerve, so I tried to put the granddaughter down for a nap before her Grammy went ballistic on her. Well, she didn't want to take a nap, so when I put her on the bed, she started squealing and kicking her legs--just like my daughter did one of the times I spanked her. Well, must be something about that that sends me over the edge because without even thinking, I flipped her over and gave her a couple of swats on the rear. I don't know which of us was most surprised by my action. I could feel the padding of the rubber training pants under her shorts so I know I couldn't have hurt her much, but she starts crying anyway, which completely unnerves me. I go in the other room and think, "I shouldn't have done that--she's not even blood kin (although I love her like my regular grandkids)." Then to make it even worse, I find out that Lois had already spanked her just before I put her to bed! When her folks came to pick her up, she tells her mother, "Grammy and grandpa both spanked my butt!" Lawd, I felt like jumping in a hole and pulling it in after me! Fortunately, they sided with us and told her she had to behave. But it upset me so much I doubt if I'll ever discipline any of the grandkids again--just squeal on them to the parents when they come to get them! :)

[mack]

Ruf - that is hilarious!! :rotfl: I think grandparents should get a pass, though - its only right, isnt it? Assuming youve already ran the gauntlet of making sure your own children come out right, it seems like the grandchildren should be their responsibility, and grandparents should get to sit back and give out cookies and milk at odd hours of the night - or at the very least, be a lil bit mischievous with the grands.

the only converse that makes sense (and Ive seen it ..... a lot!) is when your scenario with your grandmother is flipflopped and its the parents that are in lala land - the parents who are certain their little angel or prince (who to everyone else is a little hellion!) couldnt hurt a fly or butter wouldnt melt. Those are those instances when everyone breathes a sigh of relief that Grandma or Grandpa come to visit the couple for a few weeks ;) All of a sudden, little Johnny or little Suzy are straightened out and mannerable like you've never seen before! And we all feel vindicated, because often, you have parents who take the attitude that "everyone is against" their little misunderstood angel. Oh no. :nope: There's a lot of us, and we arent related. There's one (or two) of you. We're probably right about what we're saying about your child's behavior.

So while I thank god for militant grandparents, I hope and pray that I wont be a blind parent, and that I'll have my children in line so that my parents and parents-in-law can be.....well......grandparents! :shrug:

Life. So full of complications! :D

[rufnek]

the only converse that makes sense (and Ive seen it ..... a lot!) is when your scenario with your grandmother is flipflopped and its the parents that are in lala land - the parents who are certain their little angel or prince (who to everyone else is a little hellion!)

Well, Grandma didn't always think my chit didn't stink. Like the time I had my cousin pinned up against the garage beating hell out of him for some transgression--don't remember what it was at the time, but the beating was definitely justified. Anyway, Granny pulled me off of him and slapped me. Think it was the only time she ever hit any of us grandkids although we often got into a lot of stuff on her watch. Worse, she took from me this Japanese Army knife with an 8-inch blade I was wearing in its scabbard at the time. My dad brought it back from the War and gave it to me when I was around 10-11. Once cut my forefinger to the bone whittling with that knife. Anyway, Granny kept the knife for the rest of the afternoon and then gave it back. Said she was afraid I was so mad I'd have used it on my cousin, but it had never crossed my mind--I wanted him alive the next day when those bruises started getting tender. :) For some reason some folks seem to think my bite is worse than my bark.

The cousin wasn't a little kid I was picking on--he was (is) only 6 months younger than me and my size. It wasn't the first or last fight he and I ever had. I remember one falling-out we as teenagers. Man, he hit me three fast, straight shots in my right eye like he was patting for a square dance! I was trying to get in close but each time I took a step toward him, he'd smack me in the eye again and rock me back a step. Figured I'd better do something before I was fighting blind. So I swung with my right, missed his eye but came up along the side of his head. Felt his ear and curled my fingers around it for leverage and gouged my thumb in his eye. Thought either he quits hitting me or I'm going to push my thumb through to his brain. Well, he finally yelled and quit. The white in his eye was solid red for a couple of weeks, while my eye immediately swelled almost shut and turned a lovely bluish-black. Talk about tender! Especially after I swabbed some pink calamine lotion over the brused area in an attempt to make it look more "normal." Also had to keep turning so none of the grownups came up on my right side and see we had been fighting. One adult asked one day, "What's wrong with your eye?" but I just kept walking like I hadn't heard them.

Boy, my cousin sure could punch! Hit me in exactly the same spot three times in a row! You gotta admire accuracy like that.

[DexterRiley]

My general ideas of a good parent:

0. Before all this, I'm assuming the parents in question are pretty much decent people who can control themselves to a tolerable degree and feel an obligation to unceasingly support their kids' subsistence for around 18-20 years, more or less depending on the situation.

1. What parents say goes. Period. I mean this even for political opinions, religion etc. The kid will naturally learn to resent this irrationality while obeying---a crucial aspect of living freely in any society. The kid will rebel silently and gain their intellectual/emotional independence without showing immediate disrespect. Discipline and punishment should be a simple grounding: restricting motility and typically "fun" activity---encourage reading and self-reflection. The kid will emerge independent and naturally skeptical of social institutions/figures of authority without being a dissident (at least initially).

2. No yelling. Just say things firmly and arrogantly dismiss replies (what my parents were like). It just makes the kid feel like an idiot for even saying anything: the kid ends up either refuting himself or at least going through his own argument to make sure it is sound---often not! On the rare occasions that the kid is correct, he will just take it as another sign that his parents are too jaded, too cynical, or too conservative (a fair, respectful critique). Basic thesis: the kid will think critically for himself if the parents are firm.

3. Parents shouldn't dote on their kids excessively. Doing so discourages self-betterment. Self-esteem comes most naturally by having real accomplishments.

4. Parents should never discourage a kids' desire to improve themselves unless they absolutely have to or the kid is just talking dangerous nonsense like being a rock star---unless they demonstrate a considerable talent that is widely verified and recognized not just by them.

5. Parents should take a fairly neutral stance on their kids' future. They should lay out the risks and rewards but also occasionally emphasize the importance of risk taking and fidelity to one's dreams.

6. Parents shouldn't buy their kids things unless they 1) need it 2) have a very, very, very good reason for wanting it. The parent should readily ridicule their children's desire for material items such as "the latest" this or that. The parent should encourage a historical approach to artistic products, always emphasizing the wealth of material preceding those of the present. The parent should stay away from time extremely time consuming products such as video games. The parent should never give an allowance without a set of work procedures to "earn" it.

7. Parents should talk about contraception and that's it. I'm 100% convinced that the intricacies of sexuality should and can be learned through friends/health class/or, if all else fails/on the internet. Nothing that awkward and unsettling can be healthy!

8. Parents should never lose their cool. It makes them look like clowns. The effect on the kids' perception of them is analogous to police brutality on the mass populace. My parents were generally pretty good in this regard. They preferred biting remarks and sarcasm to yelling (makes the kid feel so dumb---trust me, I know). But when they did yell, they always just came off as taking out their stress from the day and a general display of weakness.

9. Parents shouldn't censor their kids from very much, if anything. I think that, at around 10-12, a kid is pretty much ready for most things. If your kid goes to a public or private school, they will pretty much know most things anyway. I think this is a perfectly natural and very healthy way of discovering most things.

10. Parents should answer their kids questions (to a limit---I'm thinking Louis C.K.s stand-up here) but always with "I think/I'm not sure but" when they are not themselves sure or else they're just spreading nonsense which the kid might believe for years if not questioned.

a lot of your rules vary a great deal as to what age the "kids" are.

[planet news]

Yeah, I'm probably thinking of recent memory, i.e. middle to high school years---supposedly the most difficult times.