View Full Version : The Great Wire (Re?) Watch
I'm about to repeat myself, so apologies to anyone who's heard all this, but it makes for a nice little intro:
I've been hearing for years that The Wire is an awesome television show. I was hearing this back when it was still on, but it'd already been going for awhile, I'm not sure I had access to HBO at the time, and I was already starting to conclude that "I'll just find out which shows are great after they end and then never have to wait for new episodes as I watch them all at once" was the best way to watch most television shows. Nothing like binging on TV series' on DVD. I rented the first disc of season 1 (three episodes), liked it, but decided not to dive all the way in.
Anyway, a year or two ago I saw a special on Amazon: all five seasons of The Wire for $99. Basically a blind buy for an entire television series. I went for it. Which is probably silly in retrospect, because it's been on sale for more like $80 recently, and since it turns out I waited awhile to actually start watching them, I could've saved a little money. But I digress.
The DVDs sat on my shelf for awhile, eventually moving with me to a new house. I almost certainly would've started earlier in the year, but major life events put the watching on hold. By the time things were settling down, I had already resolved to catch up on Lost and watch the final season, so we decided to dive into The Wire after that was done.
Finally, with the house, wedding, car, Lost, and Christmas all in the rearview, the wife and I started watching The Wire a couple of days ago. We watched all of season 1 and we're one episode into season 2. I shared some of this information in another thread, at which point others seemed to want to use this as an excuse to start watching, given that they, too, had heard the kind of praise I had. People who had already seen it expressed interest in rewatching it, or at least discussing it with people who were watching it for the first time. And so, here we are. Seems a fresh thread is in order.
A few important things, first. For people who've already seen it, please tread lightly! Many of us are still ignorant of much of what happens later. Cryptic comments and teasing is acceptable, but don't spoil anything! :) For people like myself, who have started or are just starting: we'll have to use a lot of spoiler tags, ideally specifying what episode we're referring to, so that people can read them only if they've already gotten at least that far. Might be tough, but it's better than ruining the experience for someone.
Got a bit to do today, but I should be able to pop in late this afternoon with scattered thoughts on various parts of the first season. I'll do my best to tag them properly so people who are still on season 1 can avoid hearing anything ahead of time.
Yay. Exciting.
I watched the whole run in such an intense binge that I can't remember anything. If I could, I think I'd remember everything ;)
Maybe I can get my dad to come here. Bought him the first series for his birthday. (I'm secretly hoping to hear my mum go 'Sheeeiiiiiiiiiiit' at some point ;)) <-- not a spoiler
And as some said on the other thread, you're in for a treat :) (Series 2 is perhaps a bit of a slowdown in some ways, but still top quality).
Yeah, even one episode into the second season, it kinda feels like this is going to be a bit less intriguing than the first. But that's okay.
I am four episodes into the first season, I hope to finish the season this week.
No kidding, I pretty much just learned how to play chess from The Wire. That probably only makes sense to anyone that has seen the first several episodes of season one recently.
Also, there is a scene where McNulty and his homicide partner are re imagining a possible crime scene and the only word used in their conversation is "****" and somehow I knew exactly what was being expressed :laugh:
Loved that scene!
I am definitely into the show, and fortunately my wife is too. It's always better when we find a series we like mutually.
Brodinski
12-29-10, 04:01 PM
Yeah, even one episode into the second season, it kinda feels like this is going to be a bit less intriguing than the first. But that's okay.
Look at it as an exposé of the de-industrialisation of America, especially for what concerns steel industry and shipping industry. People being replaced by machines and industries shrinking due to productions costs being lower elsewhere. Weave capitalism and moral ambiguity into that web too.
I personally think the second season is slightly better than the first. I concede that the first two or three episode might feel a bit chaotic due to reasons probably familiar to you now (I won't explicitly say them for those that haven't yet seen S2). However, it gradually builds and I found the final episodes of S2 to be of the best in the entire series.
I think The Wire is the greatest series HBO has done.
Brodinski, I am curious - what is your favorite season?
honeykid
12-29-10, 09:54 PM
I know no one asked, but I think seasons 1 and 4 are, by far, the best seasons.
Sweet, I am loving season 1!
The Prestige
12-29-10, 11:48 PM
Look at it as an exposé of the de-industrialisation of America, especially for what concerns steel industry and shipping industry. People being replaced by machines and industries shrinking due to productions costs being lower elsewhere. Weave capitalism and moral ambiguity into that web too.
I personally think the second season is slightly better than the first. I concede that the first two or three episode might feel a bit chaotic due to reasons probably familiar to you now (I won't explicitly say them for those that haven't yet seen S2). However, it gradually builds and I found the final episodes of S2 to be of the best in the entire series.
Yeah, I do feel that season 2 is one of the more underrated seasons of The Wire. I prefer that season over seasons 5 and would maybe put it up there with season 3.
Season 4 is the best out of the bunch though. Not going back to work till 10th so I might just run through seasons 1-3 by then. Starting tomorrow.
Brodinski
12-30-10, 07:56 AM
Brodinski, I am curious - what is your favorite season?
Season 4 is my absolute favourite. I rate all the others significantly lower than the fourth, which really stands out imo. To nuance this, I rate the others lower within The Wire universe, because all of them are still better than 98 % of all seasons of all the other drama series I've ever seen.
I'd rate season 3 the second highest, followed by season 2. Season 1 & 5 are interchangeable to me, depending on my mood.
The best episode imo is from season 3, namely 3.11, Middle Ground.
TheUsualSuspect
12-31-10, 03:10 AM
Season 2 takes its time to get going, which is why I prefer season 1 and 3 over it.
I mean this in the best way possible - I can't believe this show survived for so long on television. It almost seems like it was written for a DVD release. A lot of early details pop up late in the season, it must of been tough watching week to week.
It's so refreshing to see a show that has such tight knit writing AND top notch acting. I thoroughly enjoyed SE01
Brodinski
12-31-10, 06:36 AM
Season 2 takes its time to get going, which is why I prefer season 1 and 3 over it.
Well, now I know your # 1 in that top 26 of yours. It's either that or Deadwood, innit? :cool:
Well, the wife and I plowed through the first season in about two days, give or take, and we watched the first episode of season 2 before deciding to take a few days off. We'll probably pick it back up this weekend.
First thoughts, spoiler-free for anyone who's seen the first three episodes of season 1:
First off: dense, right? This show throws you right into the deep end, and gives you just enough rope to hang onto. It's a lot easier to figure out who's who if you keep at it, and if you recognize the patterns in the dialogue. For example, in season 2 there's a scene where someone asks about "the Senator," and the other person replies "Barbara?" And the first person, in making a request, referring to the person as something like "Markowitz," thus telling us, without any clunky exposition, exactly who the topic of the conversation is.
In other words, it's really hard to figure out who's who in the first few episodes because they're often referring to people by alternating between their last name and their title (and sometimes their first name), but this is actually helpful in the long run, because you learn the organizational structure at the same time you're learning everyone's names.
So, the good news is that there's a method to the madness. And it'll all make way more sense after episodes 4 and 5. At least, that's about the time I first felt I had a good grip on who everyone was. More good news: you probably don't need to get every reference. The thicket of names and superiors and regulations is part of the point the show is making. If you don't feel lost and kind of amazed that police time is actually spent navigating this kind of nonsense, then the show is failing.
Okay, now, thoughts for the entire first season:
Daniels
We never do find out if Daniels is really "dirty," do we? Obviously McNulty's friend at the FBI suggests they found an unusually high amount of money (though nothing firm, because they handed it off and never heard anything in the way of follow-up), and when Daniels keeps pushing the Deputy Ops, he tosses a folder on the desk and implies that he can nail him with it. But we don't know if it's actual wrongdoing, or just something that looks wrong. And Daniels never seems to specify otherwise, he just concedes that whatever's in there would hurt him. He implies later in the season, I believe, that some bad stuff might have happened, but we still don't know to what extent. It might be fairly tame by the standards of everything else we're seeing.
It also makes Daniels' behavior throughout the season very interesting, because he has a confrontation with Herc and Carv about swiping money. Amusingly, they genuinely lost it (and then found it) the first time, though they go ahead and steal some anyway later and (apparently) get away with it. One wonders if this confrontation is just Daniels doing his job, but given how serious he seems about it, I can't help but wonder if there's a bit of "I made that mistake once, and I know it isn't worth it" in his warnings.
1
Omar
I know everyone else likes Omar, but he was probably my 4th or 5th favorite character. This actually leads me to believe we're going to see a lot more of him in future seasons, since I've heard references here and elsewhere to the idea that Omar is most people's favorite character. So unless I'm totally missing something, I'd say he's got a lot to do down the line. This ties into my next point...
1
Laying Groundwork
Sweet screaming monkeys are there a lot of loose ends! There've got to be two or three dozen little secrets or motivations that could pop up at any time, and we're only one season into the show. Carv and Herc could get busted for stealing the money. Daniels' past could crop up. Avon Barksdale could get out of jail early and either Barksdale could roll over on someone after all. The Senator could come after some of the people involved, or get busted for something else. Judge Phelan could feel remorse for abandoning McNulty just as things really heated up. Bubbles could reemerge any number of ways. And, of course, Omar could pop up and kill someone with a shotgun at any moment. To anyone who's seen The Sopranos: remember that foreign character that we never saw actually die? Remember how everyone was waiting from the end of that episode to the end of the entire series for him to pop back up again? This show has twenty of those guys.
My broad thoughts for the entire first season: it makes sense. They bust their asses and risk their careers for a chance, and there's just too much headwind, so they score a fairly minor victory and the guys who put their necks on the line (McNulty and Daniels) get demoted. And as cliche as some of McNulty's personal problems with his kids and ex-wife may have felt, they never wallowed in his misery, and it all helps explain why he's so obsessed with his job: it really is all he has.
Great first season. Can't wait for the second one to pick up. Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts about both the first few episodes, or the entire first season, though make sure to tag either one so people know what they can or can't read. I think pretty much everyone involved has seen at least the first few by now, though.
Tacitus
01-01-11, 01:37 PM
We find out more about Daniels as time goes by but, sadly, not why he walks like Robocop...
I'm probably out on a limb here in that I slightly prefer season 2 over the first one, but I'll not say why until you've finished it. ;)
I'll be making a start on my rewatch tonight. Does anyone else, with an upscaling DVD player, get annoyed by the lines of (what I presume is) interference at the top of the screen? I fixed it by applying a slight zoom to the TV picture and have noticed it occasionally in other things, usually 4:3 ratio TV shows on DVD.
I thought Daniels gets promoted to Fringe science department of the FBI or something where he later develops a severe case of eyeball jaundice
http://www.fringebloggers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fbbroyles.jpg
SE02 EP04 - I see what they did there!
We just finished that one 15 minutes ago! What are you referring to, specifically, though?
Anyway, episode three was brilliant...
...lacing the drugs with poison was a friggin' masterstroke from Avon. He gets rid of Tilghman, shaves his own sentence down, and he also gets to simultaneously deal with DeAngelo's drug problem. Either he lies and uses it, and is punished automatically for both lying and using, or he tells the truth and is rewarded. What's that, four birds with one stone? Remind me never to screw with this particular fictional character.
Also, since he's also a fictional character I feel comfortable saying this: Ziggy pretty much deserves to die. That is one dumb, dumb manchild.
SamsoniteDelilah
01-01-11, 07:02 PM
I'm so excited we're doing this! I bought the whole series a few months ago, but wanted someone to watch it with. A better group of someones couldn't be ordered! I'm on it starting today. This is a rewatch for me, btw, I watched it as seasons went to dvd, and seasons 4 and 5 as they aired. I think the show is the best tv series in the history of, and season 4 is the most powerful compilation of episodes I'd even want to see. I'm psyched about this project! :D
Before I even dive in, that opener of episode one with McNulty and the conversation about Snot Boogie: I'd heard good things about this show, but that was so good that the first time I watched it, I rolled it back and started over. Absolutely a perfect setup for the show.
McNulty: If he always does that, why do you let him play?
Kid: Got to man, this' America.
LOVE it.
We just finished that one 15 minutes ago! What are you referring to, specifically, though?
I was waiting to see how they got everyone together again. I smiled when Daniels demanded a perma-team.
Anyway, I want to write more but I have to wait for a computer, all I have is my phone to type on right now.
Ah, I dig. Yeah, that was a cool moment. But...
...I'm glad it wasn't exactly the same. That would've felt a little contrived. It's more realistic that Rawls blocked McNulty just to screw him a little.
Just good to see Daniels in the mix again. I couldn't help but wonder if he pulled a McNulty with that retirement thing, by which I mean, doing something benign-looking that he knows will set other events in motion, but which he has some deniability for. He was sent to the basement between seasons 1 and 2, and I guess everyone assumed he was still career-oriented (as he had that reputation in the first season), and thus was going to take his lumps and work his way back. But when he suggests he's willing to retire and become a lawyer, all of a sudden he's got nothing to lose, so he becomes a threat to stir things up over the way Burrell interfered with the Barksdale case.
So, I'm wondering whether or not he told his wife he'd do all this because he knew full well that people would come offering him something as soon as he suggested he might retire. Hard to say just how much of this he planned, but he hasn't really missed any angles so far.
Glad to hear you're a fan, too, Sam! Not sure if it's cool to have another person who's seen it all, or if it'd been cooler to have another person who's just starting, but it's pretty cool either way. :) I'm sure you'll have fun watching us newbies make guesses about where the show's going and all that. :D
SamsoniteDelilah
01-02-11, 12:06 AM
Yoda, guilty as charged. Had posted about it here (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=9948&highlight=wire). I love to see what people see when they're watching something for the first time. It's informative from a storytelling aspect to see how people recieve a story as it's unspooling.
The scene in season one where McNutty and Bunk are CSIing and the only word they're saying is "****"... one of the best ever.
And Omar, and D'Angelo... Freemon... these characters are ones Shakespeare just hadn't gotten around to writing.
Bubbles turning to McNulty and saying "it's a thin line between heaven and here"... they're on opposite sides of that line, and that line is addiction. That becomes clearer as things go on, but it's there in that scene. It's expressed in that scene with remarkable, subtle poetry.
I'll try and keep the ranting to a minimum after this. ::ahem::
I just heard the greatest insult on The Wire yet.
Cottage cheese chest ass motherfvcker
planet news
01-02-11, 01:47 AM
Wow, is season one talk, like, already over? I have one more episode left in it, so it'd be pointless jumping into specifics for now.
\---NO SPOILERS---/
Basically... I like watching the show a good bit, but I'm just not that interested in the whole cop procedural/drug war thing to be honest. Even with all the clever symbolism and occasionally cinematic camerawork---both of which there are much greater shows to be regarded for---I mostly feel like I'm one of the desk characters, wading through a boatload of extraneous paperwork to get to the good stuff---that is, the social commentary, which is mediocre at best for now.
Most of it centers around this notion of getting along in "the game" or performing within the institution you are embedded in. There is also this blurring of the lines between criminal and cop, which is a move I like and admire, but again it all plays into this notion of institutions being these rigid but arbitrary tracks through which one navigates his/her life. Where it merits a narrative focus is in the individuals whom the audience is shown, since these people are taking a stand on their own performance, as it were.
I just can't wait until the Capitalism commentary that Brod mentioned. There are interesting hints at certain themes to come already, I think---especially in the repeated line about why "the game" is structured as it is, involving murder and deception. I don't know what the show says about this why, perhaps it only seeks to ask the question, but I'd like to see the final episode of the season before I make my judgment on what it should have said. The great thing about a television show is the wealth of "evidence" one can use for any number of hermeneutic theories.
As for what many would call "the show itself", the only thing I find truly distinctive about it are the lack of easy good/evil targets---that is, not in "humanizing" the villains (a move I usually disapprove of), but rather, in making the heroes detestable or understandable in terms of the villains' positions---though it doesn't go quite far enough in blurring the line for everybody, which it technically shouldn't---in defense of the mission of police---but perhaps should in terms of their motivation. We will always have our white knights who do real police-work, as they say in the show. But still, I can appreciate this blurring of sides and the relatively equal focus between them instead of framing everything from the exclusive point of view of the police.
Just finished season 2. Still wish I had my computer available to type out some thoughts.
Is it weird that Rawls and Sergeant Landsman are pretty high on my list of favorite characters on the show? Rawls' obsessing over the department's clearance percentage cracks me up.
Omar, Bunk, and McNulty would probably complete my top 5.
planet news
01-02-11, 04:29 AM
To be honest, McNulty kinda rubs me the wrong way in the same way he mis-rubs Rawls; not that I'm liking Rawls at all. I much prefer Kima or Lester for the cops, but we don't know much about him. Omar is a pretty cool guy, I agree, but Bubbles is probably my "favorite" overall, in terms of likability for me.
I genuinely like the majority of the characters except a few of the.kids in the towers.
Also wanted to mention Prez, he is good police (as they would say) but has a knack to mess things up and react in the worst possible way. Funny stuff.
I like bubs a lot too, but lost a lot of respect at the end of season 1. I mean I understand why it played out like it did, but still bummed me out a bit.
Tacitus
01-02-11, 07:02 AM
I've finished the first 3 episodes of season one, the thread can continue now!
Oh ... bugger. :blush:
Should I just skip to 2? It's not as if I don't know every bend in the road of the first season already.
One thing that struck me about The Wire when I first watched it (big props to Sammy :kiss:) was the League of Nations among the actors in some of the main parts. We've got:
Dominic 'English' West
Idris 'English' Elba
Aidan 'Paddy' Gillen
Of the three (and speaking as a non-Colonial) I'd say that Big Idris does best in accent terms and Aiden Gillen comfortably the worst.
Elba has had the lead role in a BBC cop drama (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1474684/) since The Wire ended but I've not watched it. It looked pretty formulaic.
Brodinski
01-02-11, 08:32 AM
There are interesting hints at certain themes to come already, I think---especially in the repeated line about why "the game" is structured as it is, involving murder and deception. I don't know what the show says about this why, perhaps it only seeks to ask the question, but I'd like to see the final episode of the season before I make my judgment on what it should have said.
The Wire doesn't provide answers. It acts as a neutral spectator looking at what is going on and comments on it for a bit (or a lot) through its characters. You can look for the answers, but you won't find many of them.
Is it weird that Rawls and Sergeant Landsman are pretty high on my list of favorite characters on the show? Rawls' obsessing over the department's clearance percentage cracks me up.
Omar, Bunk, and McNulty would probably complete my top 5.
Surprised to see no one mentions Stringer. He's my favourite character on the entire show, second only to the strictly suit-and-tie wearin' motherfvcker Bunk. I can't count the amount of times The Bunk made me smile, chuckle or laugh out loud.
Powdered Water
01-02-11, 01:14 PM
Yeah, I agree. Bunk is natural police.
planet news
01-02-11, 04:23 PM
Surprised to see no one mentions Stringer. He's my favourite character on the entire showYeah, Stringer's a cool guy. I like how good he is at what he does, his professionalism. He's "good gangsta", maybe. The same with Omar, though on a different, ethical level. I think Omar is a parallel for McNulty (then again, Omar is a turncoat or at least a vigilante), and Stringer is a parallel for... Lester, maybe? Either way, it shows how there is excellence in both fields of play, and the show itself is a showdown between best police and the best gangsters.
Stringer became desperate and made some serious missteps (atleast it seems to me). I liked him alright before and I can see him redeeming himself, but for now I don't care for him too much.
SamsoniteDelilah
01-02-11, 05:56 PM
My favorite characters are Bubbles and Kima, in terms of my caring the most what happens to them. Omar is also an awesome character, and develops well. The first time through, I was mostly watching them and eventually Lester. This time, I'm liking Lester earlier on, but am aware of a lot more details in other characters too, who felt like a blur the first time. They're all well drawn characters, and the people making the stories are faithful to continuity, which I've come to really appreciate. Definitely a show worth rewatching.
I've finished the first 3 episodes of season one, the thread can continue now!
Oh ... bugger. :blush:
Should I just skip to 2? It's not as if I don't know every bend in the road of the first season already.
One thing that struck me about The Wire when I first watched it (big props to Sammy :kiss:) was the League of Nations among the actors in some of the main parts. We've got:
Dominic 'English' West
Idris 'English' Elba
Aidan 'Paddy' Gillen
Of the three (and speaking as a non-Colonial) I'd say that Big Idris does best in accent terms and Aiden Gillen comfortably the worst.
Elba has had the lead role in a BBC cop drama (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1474684/) since The Wire ended but I've not watched it. It looked pretty formulaic.
I was shocked to learn Idris Elba was English, and hearing his natural accent is pretty jarring in a good way. Of the three, his character could not survive with any bleedthough of native lilt, so it's good he keeps it reigned in. It's a crying shame no one is really putting him to good use in Hollywood. He's so pretty!!!
uh... and talented.
Pleased as punch that you liked the show, but I knew you would - you have an eye for quality.
planet news - if you're looking for meaty content on Capitalism, you'll like season three. They definitely get into it more deeply there. As Brodinski (hi Brodinski) said, it's more about exploring ideas than espousing a stance, which I think makes for better entertainment anyway, no?
Brodinski
01-02-11, 06:55 PM
Yeah, Stringer's a cool guy. I like how good he is at what he does, his professionalism. He's "good gangsta", maybe. The same with Omar, though on a different, ethical level. I think Omar is a parallel for McNulty (then again, Omar is a turncoat or at least a vigilante), and Stringer is a parallel for... Lester, maybe? Either way, it shows how there is excellence in both fields of play, and the show itself is a showdown between best police and the best gangsters.
Hmm, I understand how you think of them like that, but Stringer isn't a parallel character for Freamon. You'll understand once you see more of the series.
Stringer became desperate and made some serious missteps
You're right in that String made some missteps, but not out of desperation. Everything String does is done from a business perspective. He doesn't get desperate, but always tries to set up ways of gaining more money.
planet news
01-02-11, 07:58 PM
Good song from season one, episode 11: "The Hunt". It plays in the car as D'Angelo is taking Wee-Bey to his house before he goes to Philadelphia to lay low for Kima's shooting. Now... could somebody please explain to me why, in this same episode, D'Angelo is scared to follow Wee-Bey into his house and is relieved when Wee-Bey turns on the lights to reveal his aquarium collection and passion for fish? The whole sequence is very well done, and the way the sounds of the aquariums float in as D'Angelo has this agonized look on his face is pretty ominous. I just don't get why he is so scared to look into Wee-Bey's house.
WARNING: Language
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnF0_m8wcHA
Tacitus
01-02-11, 08:01 PM
He thinks he's gonna get killed.
Dee thought Wee-Bey was going to kill him. I think it was because he wouldn't give up Wallace, but I might be mixing the reasons up in my head a bit.
Gah, I was too busy adding spoiler tags to get that up in time. Well done. :D
planet news
01-02-11, 08:03 PM
Oh. Okay. That makes sense... I guess... I always thought D'Angelo was relatively immune and had a lot of favor with his uncle. There was that conversation on the couch though earlier. I didn't catch it.
Yeah, sorry about the tag. Thanks for putting it up.
Tacitus
01-02-11, 08:07 PM
I was shocked to learn Idris Elba was English, and hearing his natural accent is pretty jarring in a good way. Of the three, his character could not survive with any bleedthough of native lilt, so it's good he keeps it reigned in. It's a crying shame no one is really putting him to good use in Hollywood. He's so pretty!!!
uh... and talented.
The guy's got a presence about him that few actors have. Very few.
As to my favourite character throughout the entire story arc, it's probably Bodie. Prop Joe is up there, as are Rawls, Bunk and maybe (for her sheer cold-blooded watchability) Snoop.
Least favourite would have to be late period McNulty but a lot of you will have to watch the final season to find out quite why. ;)
Even these discussions about favorite characters get me thinking. For example, Tac saying he likes Bodie's arc probably rules out a few things for him. There are still lots of possibilities, but to me it indicates either a rise to either #1 or #2 in the "organization," or else some kind of change of heart down the line. Obviously, as early as season 1 we see that he's a good deal smarter (and more brutal) than most of the other kids running around the Pit.
Tacitus
01-02-11, 08:13 PM
It's a lot more subtle than what you might think but, yeah, he does develop. To be honest, I think a lot of it is down to what the actor brought to the role.
The kid's a natural. ;)
EDIT - My plans of skipping S1 and going on to the second have gone out the window. I just can't stop watching it in sequence now but will chip in whenever my memory allows me.
I'm trying to force myself to slow down a bit. Courtney and I have two episodes left in season 2 and we're definitely finishing them tonight. We're averaging a season a week, and that's taking off three days or so in the middle, so I'm going to try to watch more movies so that pace slows a tad.
Brodinski
01-02-11, 09:04 PM
The guy's got a presence about him that few actors have. Very few.
As to my favourite character throughout the entire story arc, it's probably Bodie. Prop Joe is up there, as are Rawls, Bunk and maybe (for her sheer cold-blooded watchability) Snoop.
Least favourite would have to be late period McNulty but a lot of you will have to watch the final season to find out quite why. ;)
Nail on the head, Tatty. Idris Elba was really great.
Bodie is in my top 5 as well, along with The Bunk, String, Bunny Colvin and Chris (that guy is cold as ice).
Finished season 2 a couple of days ago. I still prefer season 1, but not by a whole lot. I'll have thoughts shortly; I'm reading someone else's recaps and fleshing things out in my mind a bit, but it's-a-comin'. I'll even have some ideological disagreements with some of the things Simon's (probably) trying to say with it, though I'll keep it light so as not to invite a political discussion in what I'm sure we all want to be a more show-focused thread.
If anyone else was holding back on season 2 until one of us newbies was through it, by all means, wrap that sucker in spoiler tags and let's go! Would really love to read other people's thoughts on it now that I'm done. Dave, specifically, said he loved season 2 for some reason he'd mention later, I believe.
Tacitus
01-04-11, 04:02 PM
I'm still battering on though season 1 (but I'm over half way :p) so won't say much in detail about S2 until I've at least made a start on it.
Off the top of my head I loved how seamlessly the world was opened up yet how parochial it all seemed by the end. Coming from 4 generations of shipyard workers I also had an affinity with the main plot - There were some ancient Tattys bolting bits on to the Titanic, most likely in the hull strengthening department.
So much was my family ingrained with Harland & Wolff's that I've even been called a docker to my face a few times, although I've never worked 'port side'.
At least I think they were calling me a docker... :confused:
honeykid
01-04-11, 08:49 PM
Elba has had the lead role in a BBC cop drama (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1474684/) since The Wire ended but I've not watched it. It looked pretty formulaic.
Luther's well worth a watch. It starts as a good, but very generic lone wolf cop drama, but evolves over the 6 episodes enough to make it more interesting than that. I'm certainly looking forward to the second series. As I said in the tv tab, though, it does suffer from the UK series structure. 10-15 years ago, it would've been dynamite, however, with the rise of dvd boxsets and the amount of US drama over here, now, you can see its constraints. Over a US season, even a 13 episode one, Luther would be brilliant.
Tacitus
01-04-11, 10:10 PM
Good point. :up:
Would Morse get made today? Far too esoteric for ITV nowadays so bung the plebs some Midsomer Murders or Frost for their detective fix. I'll probably buy this tomorrow - HMV have got the complete Jeremy Brett Holmes for £30 and we all know how that's been remade recently. The thread that stitches those together is that that each episode is a self-contained story with the occasional two parter.
I'd love to have seen Morse (where Danny Boyle cut his teeth after a stint at BBC NI...or was it before?) having one arching storyline spread over 10 weeks. ;)
Back to the topic in hand: I didn't manage any Wire tonight. :(
About to start season 3; probably get two in tonight. I probably shouldn't do this before I've gone back and talked more about the first seasons, but I'm going to anyway. But I'll be back tomorrow to reply to some earlier posts and post more random things, and hopefully get some more dialogue going with the series veterans and other newbies. :) Yay, exciting.
SamsoniteDelilah
01-05-11, 12:06 AM
Luther's well worth a watch. It starts as a good, but very generic lone wolf cop drama, but evolves over the 6 episodes enough to make it more interesting than that. I'm certainly looking forward to the second series. As I said in the tv tab, though, it does suffer from the UK series structure. 10-15 years ago, it would've been dynamite, however, with the rise of dvd boxsets and the amount of US drama over here, now, you can see its constraints. Over a US season, even a 13 episode one, Luther would be brilliant.The good news in this post is that we're sending you all better material. When I was last on your side of the pond, the American tv we were exporting was utterly humiliating. Here's to the demands of good taste, all around!
I am on 3.9 as of last night. Some crazy things happening in season 3, I can't wait to finish it.
Prez can't catch a break. He is slowly becoming a favorite character of mine, and my jaw hit the floor when McNulty revealed the detective tags on the dead body that Prez shot. I haven't seen the outcome yet, hopefully I can finish it up tonight.
I really love the idea of Amsterdam. I'm sure everyone has thought, hey lets just throw all the slimy criminals and drug dealers in one area and hash it out. Now we get to see this and all the moral reprecussions that would go along with a tactic like this. Right now Rawls is loving the numbers on that side of town, I am curious to see how he reacts when (if?) he finds out why the numbers are actually down so low.
Brodinski
01-05-11, 12:44 PM
Just wait until 3.11. That episode is just picture perfect.
So...season 2. Not bad, but I like it less than season 1. Broad, spoiler-free thoughts: I prefer season 1 because it feels more consistently compelling and entertaining. Season 2, is more peaks and troughs. It has scenes better than anything in season 1, to my mind, but a few that drag. I prefer the more consistent pacing, but only just so.
Onto specific things. This is spoiler-y for anyone who hasn't finished the first two seasons...
Dope Spiking
I posted this earlier, but I love, love, love Stringer and Avon spiking the dope in prison. It accomplishes so many things simultaneously.
Omar
Okay, now I get why everyone loves Omar. The courtroom scene was a thing of beauty. And it's interesting to note how funny it is, even though it's not really comedy. I've failed to laugh at far more outrageous things in other stories, so it just goes to show you how much mood and the mores of whatever fictional world you're watching factors into what you consider outrageous or funny. It's not that Omar's being hilarious, it's that he's so clearly different from everyone else.
Apparently, David Simon has suggested that Omar is the only character in the show who is free from the control of any institution, which I think is a pretty good way to summarize him. This makes him a pretty complicated guy. I dunno if Simon is lionizing this sort of "freedom," though I hope not, because Omar's still not a great guy, but it does explain why he's interesting and amusing.
Brother Mouzone
Boo. Hated this character. He was fine, all else being equal, but he felt tremendously out of place to me. He felt like a character from some other, less serious show. And I didn't really buy him as a badass. What, just because he suddenly shot some guy with a pellet gun and looked remorseless? I was both unconvinced of his reputation, but more importantly, I felt like he was from another television series entirely. I have to hope he factors in down the line, because otherwise he feels like one of the very, very few elements of the show that could be completely removed without messing anything up.
The Sobotkas and Manufacturing
Boy, the Sobotkas really fall apart, huh? Frank struck me as a bit of a caricature, and I didn't find him as interesting as most of the other characters, but it was interesting to hear Simon and Co. talk a bit about American manufacturing.
You can usually tell, I think, when Simon's having someone say what he himself thinks. It's usually a pithy line, uttered with some degree of authority, at some appropriate time. In this season, I think it's Frank's "We used to make s**t in this country... build s**t. Now we just put our hand in the next guy's pockets." Of course, American manufacturing has been in decline for decades now, but it's been replaced by Information Technology. Can't build much that people want if you can't invent, and as far as I'm concerned invention is just as much "[making] s**t" as actually putting it together.
Of course, this is The Wire, so it's not left that stark. We get to see Frank Sobotka grousing about machines making stevedores superfluous and responding to stats about less worker injuries by quipping "can't get hurt if you ain't working," only to see one of his guys get his leg crushed and amputated in the very same episode, I believe. So, like most things in this show, we're not exactly being preached to, but I tend to think Simon (and Rafael Alvarez, who wrote the episode in question) are probably more sympathetic to Sobotka's POV than not.
Too Many Coincidences
The guns falling on the barge, stakeouts just missing people going by again, The Greek getting the call from his friend in the FBI just as Frank walks up. These all felt like things that would be found in a more overtly contrived and dramatic show. I'm perfectly willing to accept coincidences in fiction, but they usually feel out of place in The Wire. It's at it's best when the s**t hits the fan even though nobody did any one massive thing to lead to the conclusion. It's the feeling of cumulative decisions building to an inevitability that makes this show work, and you can only have so many funny coincidences without damaging that a little.
The Game
Really love Stringer's growing focus on business over badassery. Though he's thoroughly part of "The Game," he's showing the ability to think beyond it in a way that I don't think Avon can.
Personal Supplanting Professional
Lots of tension and intersection between personal things and professional things in this season. There always is, but it's starker here, I think. McNulty has given up on getting to be a real detective again, so he decides he might as well parlay that bad news into a renewed family life with Elena and the kids. When that doesn't work, he basically self-destructs, unable to do the job he wants (but neglects family for), or manage to benefit with his family from the fact that he's not doing it. He's really stuck.
Also interesting to note that the two events which spark everything that happens here are both personal grudges bleeding over into professional decisions: McNulty sticking Rawls with the 14 Jane Does just to screw him, and Valchek forming the detail to get back at Sobotka.
I mentioned in one of the spoilers above that there was one character who feels -- for now, at least; we'll see what happens later -- felt like they could have been removed completely without mucking anything up. But everything else we've seen is incredibly crucial to everything else that happens. That's pretty remarkable. This show never seems to have any time to fill, never has any characters that exist just because they're amusing or interesting. If someone isn't involved, we don't see them.
The ripple effects are everywhere. By the end of season 1 you could trace every conclusion back through a series of events to their source, and after season 2, the ripples are everywhere. I've always been particularly impressed by fiction that sees its decisions through to their logical conclusions in all sorts of little ways, and that's pretty much all The Wire is: a series of cumulative decisions, their consequences, and the new decisions that arise from those consequences, again and again. I can't even imagine how ridiculous this recursive process is going to be after another season or two.
Those thoughts were really disjointed, so I'm going to take notes during season 3 in hopes that someone finds them more interesting. :D
Quick question for the veterans, then I'm gonna go dig through the thread and reply to some things, I think...
...what's up with The Greek's FBI informant? I followed most of that, but lost the thread at the end. Up until the finale it simply appeared that The Greek was paying someone in the FBI to tip him off. But then McNulty's friend in the FBI learns that the guy wasn't actually in San Diego, as he thought, but was in Counterterrorism. Does that mean that this guy is using The Greek as an informant, too?
If so, I can't imagine that's everything, because he wouldn't be helping The Greek commit murder, as he does with Frank Sobotka, just because he's getting information from him. So either I'm wrong about something else, or the FBI guy is doubling-back: he's actually crooked after all, but pretending to be a normal agent with an informant.
Any of you smarter folk mind clearing this up for me? :)
Okay, regarding that last question...
...I read something elsewhere that suggests that Koutris (the FBI agent) is willing to help The Greek because he offered up those fake Columbian "terrorists" (IE: just competing drug dealers, really) in return, and since Koutris is all about Counterterrorism, that's all he cares about.
If so, this feels like a very slight stretch to me. Not that Koutris wouldn't be interested, but that he's handing over information about Sobotka so easily. Or, more specifically, the idea that he won't ever follow-up and notice that, hey, that Sobotka guy was friggin' murdered approximately 10 minutes after I told The Greek about his proffer.
I realize it's probably not Koutris' "turn to give a f**k," but it stretches credulity that he wouldn't follow up even in the slightest bit to make sure the information he's handing out isn't being used in such heinous ways. As jaded as I am about every person and institution in this particular show, it still seemed so unlikely that it didn't even occur to me as a possibility at first.
That said, this is all moot if Koutris figures this out in season 3. But I'm guessing he won't.
Oh, also, I want to be on record, just in case I'm right...
...I think Omar gets himself killed before the end. Probably by Brother Mouzone, but if not, then as a result of him going to shoot him.
We'll see. And not too long from now, given the pace we're watching these things at.
Brodinski
01-05-11, 02:28 PM
Quick question for the veterans, then I'm gonna go dig through the thread and reply to some things, I think...
Any of you smarter folk mind clearing this up for me? :)
Well...
The FBI guy does indeed work for the Counterterrorism unit and the Greeks provide him with terrorist information, meaning they (or at least Vondas) work as his informants. In exchange, they get information from the FBI guy.
As to why he is helping the Greeks out so much: The guy works for Counterterrorism. Do you remember McNulty's FBI friend saying that since 9/11 the main activity of the FBI is preventing terrorist attacks. It's suggested that this is very important to the FBI, which leads me to conclude that informants providing useful information on terrorism are extremely valuable. What does the FBI-guy care if some shipyard union leader gets killed? As long as his informants are still on the streets, they can still provide him information which is all he cares about. He too is playing his part in the institution (FBI) he is a part of.
That's the way I remember interpreting it anyway. I'm not a 100% certain though.
Brodinski
01-05-11, 02:40 PM
Also regarding...
The too many little coincidences you spoke of. Daniels' unit is trying to catch The Greeks. That's who they want: the big fish. However, in their world, that's not possible, because the Greeks represent pure capitalism. They (= capitalism) go where they can turn a nickle into a dime, a dime into a penny and so on. The main Greek (forgot his name, the old guy) gets asked at the airport: "are you going away for business or pleasure?". He replies by saying: "business... always business." The Greeks (= capitalism) care about one thing: turning a profit to keep the system running. Another beautiful detail is when the Greeks leave their room at the hotel, something is said that "the police will be looking for Greeks". The old guy then says "And... I'm not even Greek." You have to interpret this on a metaphorical level: their nationality isn't important, as they don't represent human beings, but rather capitalism.
As the Greeks represent capitalism, they can NEVER be caught by mere people, like the detail run by Daniels. Going up against the most powerful institution in the Western world is fighting a losing battle. That's why the Greeks are always one step ahead...
David Simon said this himself in an interview with a guy from Dutch television, although I paraphrased him of course. I hope this helped.
Yeah, I get the idea, I guess it just strikes me as going a lot further than the "not my turn to give a f**k" thing. It's one thing to tip him off or keep him on the streets, but giving up information about a possible witness must indicate to him that he's going to kill this guy, and while we've seen police fail to think much or care much, they've usually been shocked into action when something like that is staring them in the face (but not before).
I think your interpretation is correct, but I find it to involve a whole new level of cynicism, even for The Wire, and it's a little harder to swallow than the rest of it.
Re: coincidences. I don't disagree at all, and I think your analysis is completely spot-on. I don't think it really speaks to the kind of coincidences I was talking about, however. But I agree 100% with everything in that second post, regardless of its ability to address the coincidences thing.
EDIT: that said, the second paragraph in the second post does, I suspect, give me a hint as to the fate of those characters. But I could be wrong.
Tacitus
01-05-11, 03:20 PM
Maybe we could have a thread for each season so as to avoid RMCSTI (repetitive mouse clicking spoiler tags injury)? ;D
One thing that stuck in my head from this latest rewatch (and I don't think it needs spoiler-ered) is how detached from his supposed business Stringer seems from very early on in season one. Ok, he's submissive to Avon when the two of them are together in front of other gang members (as you would expect him to be to an extent) but I'm now reading it as he's not totally happy even at this early stage.
Chris, if you feel this needs spoilerised - Feel free. ;)
Nah, I think you're right, that's pretty broad. You might be right, but since I've seen it all once, I'm still coming at it from the perspective you did the first time. But I've heard other people rewatching it often suggest that, going back over stuff, they saw seeds planted long before they'd realized the first time, so I have little doubt that you're right, and that if I rewatched season 1 right away I'd seen the beginnings of some disagreements very early.
You might be right about each season. Anyone else feel the same way? I'm torn. Mainly, we just need other talkative, obsessive folks like planet to catch up so I'm not the only one babbling goofily about this. :D
You have written my thoughts out better than I can myself, so I start replying and it gets really repetitive and I just stop :laugh:
I don't have hardly anything to add to your season 2 notes, I too think it was solid but not any better than season 1. Season 3 is my favorite so far and I think once you get towards the end we will have some good morality discussions. There are a lot more personal problems and head butting within the group that is getting interesting.
Yeah, the first episode of season 3 was really, really good. I think it's already one of my favorites, and I can't believe how well it sets everything up. The opening is so, so good. As soon as I see...
...that we're back with MCU on Barksdale's crew, I think "how are they going to keep this fresh?" And it turns out they've got tons of ways:
1) The gangs now realize the cops are giving a s**t, so they're two steps ahead of them now, which means our heroes can't just be competent any more: they have to be very creative. And trying to get a moron dealer promoted by arresting the next guy up the rung is a very creative solution -- even though it fails.
2) Cutty coming out of jail and being aghast at how brutal and random The Game has gotten is a great way to illustrate that things aren't merely bad, but that they've been getting worse. Ditto for the kid trying to sell to Major Colvin at the end. I love how Colvin has three or so moments where he just can't believe how bad it's gotten. He says midway through that he's just 6 months away from retirement, which must make it very tough for him to want to do anything about it, but he might be truly fed up after that last incident. Then again, if he still can't muster himself and just cruises to retirement, it'd be a very powerful way of making the series' core point yet again.
3) Stringer taking the "drugs as a normal business" angle to new levels. Not only is it smart, but it creates an awesome dynamic where we get to see who's in his crew to make money, and who's just there because they want to be a gangster. I suspect there is trouble brewing on this front. Anyway, even if this goes nowhere, it gave us one of the funniest scenes in the entire series: "Do the chair know we gonna look like some punk-ass bitches out there?"
4) Following the entire structure up past the Commissioner. And guess what? The buck doesn't stop there. Even now that he controls the whole blasted thing, Burrell is still hiding behind the chain of command. In this instance, I'll take Jayne from Firefly's philosophy: "You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here."
And man, the symbolism of that opener! I've heard that season 3 is a little more overtly political than the others, with lots of Iraq War parallels. If so, having the season start with "the Towers" coming down is pretty friggin' brilliant. Ditto for the fact that the city failed to realize how much of a mess it would make (gee, sound like a metaphor?), and with the juxtaposition between Bodie talking about how Poot "always gets burned" and the Mayor talking about "reform." If we're comparing political reform and urban renewal to venereal diseases, we're definitely talking about The Wire.
So, so good. Too early to say, but this might have been my favorite episode of the series so far.
Tacitus
01-05-11, 03:55 PM
Season 3 actually took me a couple of tries to finish and I still think that only 5 is weaker. The writing in episode one was a bit too Tarantino-y for me (and thus a couple of steps down from the stellar standards of the first two seasons) and I think that coloured my judgement.
Still think that 1, 2 and 4 are better though. ;)
We're worlds apart, then, but I might sour on it if all that promise doesn't lead anywhere. I just love me some multi-layered symbolism, new takes on familiar things, and comedy, and this episode had all three, for me at least. Mileage varies and all that, and we're obviously comparing very good to great most of the time.
Tarantino-y is an interesting way to describe it. Anything particular in mind?
Tacitus
01-05-11, 04:13 PM
Shouting from car roofs and that whole bloody Shaft thing spring to mind but it's been ages since I watched it so will (again :rolleyes:) try to put some flesh on bones once I get round to seeing it again. The impression I'm left with was that dialogue felt a bit too studied, too aware.
Plotwise, I wasn't dying about the whole Hamsterdam thing either.
Thinking back on it, I have another reason why I wasn't so keen on season 3 when I first saw it. I didn't get round to seeing it until after I'd watched season 4 because my video store didn't stock it until season 5 was near release.
Television in general, not just other seasons of The Wire, pales in comparison to S4. ;)
EDIT - Then again, we're talking Linford Christie being compared to Usain Bolt here. Both champions, but...
Brodinski
01-05-11, 04:35 PM
I just love me some multi-layered symbolism, new takes on familiar things, and comedy, and this episode had all three, for me at least.
Then I think season 3 might just be your favourite of the entire series. Although season 4 is devestating; certainly the one that had my emotions fired up the most.
We'll see.
There will be a lot to discuss after you guys have seen S3; that's for sure.
Thinking back on it, I have another reason why I wasn't so keen on season 3 when I first saw it. I didn't get round to seeing it until after I'd watched season 4 because my video store didn't stock it until season 5 was near release.
Yeah, I can imagine that hurting it a tad.
Television in general, not just other seasons of The Wire, pales in comparison to S4. ;)
EDIT - Then again, we're talking Linford Christie being compared to Usain Bolt here. Both champions, but...
Yeah, that's my attitude. I like season 1 more than 2, but really, it's all part of the same story. The delineation from year to year so far feels far, far more artificial than it does with other series'.
Anyway, I just love how there seems to be no consensus whatsoever as to which season is the best. Like, at all. I think that says a lot about the show.
Then I think season 3 might just be your favourite of the entire series. Although season 4 is devestating; certainly the one that had my emotions fired up the most.
We'll see.
There will be a lot to discuss after you guys have seen S3; that's for sure.
Glad to hear it, that's definitely my style, for whatever reason. Then again, overtly political things can kinda bug me, but I'll be surprised if The Wire does that sort of thing in a manner that I find bothersome.
Very excited to continue. Should be watching another episode or two tonight.
3.11 and 3.12 = just incredible :up::up:
honeykid
01-07-11, 12:32 AM
They're great, aren't they? For me, those last 3 or 4 episodes elevated the 3rd season way above 2 and 5. However, you are about to enter The Wire nirvana, as far as I'm concerned... Season 4.
Tacitus
01-07-11, 09:25 AM
I'm just wondering if we're all not building up season 4 a bit too much for Chris and others who haven't seen it? :D
Ok, I think it's a landmark in TV drama which ... oh bugger. :blush:
Brodinski
01-07-11, 12:38 PM
Yeah, Chris mentioned earlier that there seems to be no consensus whatsoever as to what the best season is. I think there is, not only on this forum, but also on other forums I read and critics also think the 4th season is the best.
There is no way to build up season 4 too much, Tatty. Words do not suffice to express just how truly brilliant those 13 episodes are. I'm 22 now and I'm already thinking: Maybe that's as good as TV drama gets. It's that good.
Admittedly, I'm just going off of anecdotal evidence; I've had a few other people recommend the show and like other seasons, though I never asked why. You all would know better if you've been talking about it with others longer.
Any significant dissent surprises me, though, because even with great series' it usually becomes pretty clear after a few years which episodes or seasons are the best. Ditto for trilogies of movies and the like. Even when I hear someone gush about one season, they usually add something about some other season. I was just poking around some other places for "which is the best season?" discussions, and even the people who have a clear favorite usually feel obligated to list a runner-up, and then qualify the crap out of the choice by saying there isn't a bad season.
Anyway, I'm almost halfway through season 3. It's slowed a bit, but mainly I'm just struck by how much less like the first two seasons it feels right now. It feels like, well, other shows, what with...
...little romantic intrigues (Daniels and McNulty's love triangle with Rhonda), the infighting between McNulty and Lester, Major Colvin's unusual plan to relocate the drug trade to a certain part of the neighborhood...it feels a little more like your typical TV show. I'm not really for or against this, it just struck me that the drama this year is less like the drama the first two years, and more like The Wire's version of some cliche drama.
Anyway, you guys definitely have me hyped for the next season.
Tacitus
01-07-11, 01:11 PM
In terms of the genre I don't think there's been much better, if anything. I've said it before on here that The Wire was nearly as good as Deadwood, and I was being deadly serious.
It's that good. ;)
Tacitus
01-07-11, 01:12 PM
I'm just struck by how much less like the first two seasons it feels right now. It feels like, well, other shows, what with...
Told you! Sort of... :D
Yeah, I'm honestly not sure if I like or dislike this shift in tone. I know I friggin' love that first episode, but the rest of the year will depend on how it all goes down.
Oh, and I want to add to the list of things I'm on record as predicting. My last prediction I actually had quasi-spoiled for me the very same day I made it, though I don't know when it happens. I was looking for something else about the show and it was just sitting there. :rolleyes: Pfft. But since I'd just said I thought it would happen, it's not too terrible. Anyway, I'll spoiler-ify these, just in case...
...Omar gets himself killed, probably as some byproduct of the Mouzone thing.
...the principals, by and large, live. McNulty, Daniels, Kima, Bunk, Lester, Prez, etc.
...Avon and Stringer blow up. I've been thinking this since the end of season 1. Too many conversations with Avon subtly implying they need to lash out, and with Stringer subtly implying they shouldn't. Even though they remain very respectful, they never actually agree on these issues. They just sort of let it go.
...Bubbs dies. I've felt this way since the middle of the first season. Kinda hope I'm wrong, but it's hard for me to imagine a brilliant show that works so hard to feel real actually writing up a happy ending for a heroin addict who's relapsed before our very eyes. If he does make it, I'm sure it'll be done beautifully, but if he does I think it'll be in the midst of a lot of other death or destruction.
...Rawls replaces Burrell as Commissioner sometime before the series ends.
EDIT: ...and the season 3 attempts to change The Game blow up in everyone's faces by the end of the year.
Three things I just can't bring myself to make a prediction on:
1. Whether or not Carcetti will actually become Mayor.
2. Whether or not McNulty will ever get his family back.
3. Whether or not they "get" Senator Davis.
At gunpoint, I'd say yes to the first, no to the second, and yes to the third, but I really feel like these things could go either way. And I think that last one, if it's a "yes," it's a "yes" in a way that doesn't exactly feel like a massive accomplishment.
You who know all that happens may now laugh at me. :D
Oh, two more random thoughts, because I just can't stop thought-ing. One broad, one specific. Broad thought: I really like how any type of behavior is infectious. The more the cops laze about or the drug dealers fight each other, the more it breeds the same kind of behavior. Whatever is happening in an organization makes that same thing more likely to happen. Whatever is, is self-reinforcing.
This works for bad in all sorts of ways, as we see, but it works for good, too. Look at Prez (minor mid-season 1 spoilers, but nothing much, follows): at first, he seems like a poster child for everything that's wrong with the department. Nepotism case, incompetent, shuffled around from one superior to another, with nobody wanting him or wanting to get rid of him. But then he ends up on the Barksdale detail, and actually does some real work. Then, he can't stop talking about it to his father-in-law. He can't go back: he's real police now, probably for good. They've given him that bug, and he can't get rid of it. The good work can infect you the same way the bad work can.
The other's a bit more spoilery...
...the business arrangement the drug kingpins all have. First off, it's kind of hysterical, but it's undeniably smart, too. But what I really like about it is that it all starts with McNulty asking DeAngelo why people can't just buy and sell drugs without killing each other. That strikes a chord with D, who then, I believe, repeated it to someone else. And on it goes, eventually resulting (assuming I have my chain of events correct) in Stringer basically revolutionizing The Game.
That's The Wire in a nutshell, isn't it? Tens of thousands of man-hours accomplishing and changing nothing. Then one statement -- the right statement -- and the entire thing morphs.
Tacitus
01-07-11, 02:16 PM
Something I remember saying in the other Wire thread - If Émile Zola had been alive and working (and American) today, he'd be a writer on The Wire.
honeykid
01-08-11, 06:29 AM
In terms of the genre I don't think there's been much better, if anything. I've said it before on here that The Wire was nearly as good as Deadwood, and I was being deadly serious.
It's that good. ;)
A western with Lovejoy? There's no way I could ever watch it.
BTW, I'd say Mad Men is as good as The Wire. Not as intricate or anything, but in terms of tv drama, it's as good.
Tacitus
01-08-11, 07:11 AM
It's your loss. :)
honeykid
01-08-11, 07:47 AM
I've no doubt about that. It's a much respected and well loved programme.
Tacitus
01-08-11, 08:02 AM
Lovejoy was perfect Sunday evening entertainment anyway. ;)
McShane is phenomenal in Deadwood, as is the writing, so I'd strongly recommend you checking it out. Such a shame that the show was strangled before it could reach a satisfactory conclusion, something that The Wire avoided even though S5 (the whole McNulty subplot to be specific) was poor by their standards.
Tacitus
01-09-11, 05:15 PM
I'll finally tidy up season 1 tonight. ;D
Aaaaanyway, I was playing Fallout: New Vegas the other day when it struck me that Caesar sounded awfully familiar. Turns out that the character was voiced by .... Deirdre Lovejoy!
Just kidding, it was John 'Rawls' Doman. ;)
He deserves better than video game bit-parts.
The Prestige
01-13-11, 09:08 PM
Ok, I have some catching up to do.
Just started season 4 tonight! Will have thoughts in a few more episodes.
planet news
01-13-11, 10:21 PM
If episode progress was a race, I would officially be in dead last.
Tacitus
01-14-11, 06:00 AM
Damn, I thought I would be taking that particular honour.
I'm on S2 D3...
The Prestige
01-14-11, 11:44 PM
No it's got to be me. I'm on season 1 still. 4th ep...
But I will rinse through and get to season 3 by the end next week, so feel free to take your time, folks.
christine
01-15-11, 01:17 PM
In terms of the genre I don't think there's been much better, if anything. I've said it before on here that The Wire was nearly as good as Deadwood, and I was being deadly serious.
It's that good. ;)
I'm thinking that Deadwood will be on that new Sky HBO channel. Might give it a go as you've recommended it and my eldest son has too.
As for The Wire, best season? oh season four is just superlative to any other season in any series ever! Although overall The Sopranos is my favourite whole series, just nudging ahead of The Wire.
Brodinski
01-15-11, 02:06 PM
Such a shame that the show was strangled before it could reach a satisfactory conclusion,
I disagree, Tatty. Deadwood's conclusion was terrific. Swearengen saying "wants me to tell him something pretty" is picture perfect for how the series ended. Even though I would have loved to see a next season (as Deadwood is one of the very, very few series that got better with every season), sometimes things don't end the way we want them to. We want to be told something pretty, but life isn't always pretty. We don't always get what we want.
I love Deadwood. I love everything about that show. It's so, so good. The dialogue is of the highest level. The fact that I don't think it's in the same ballpark as The Wire, says enough about just how highly I think about what David Simon and Ed Burns have created.
Tacitus
01-15-11, 10:09 PM
Maybe we should start a Deadwood thread once The Wire is done and dusted? ;)
So much for posting thoughts. Courtney and I finished season 4 last night, flying through the last five episodes way past when we ought to have gone to sleep. Non-spoiler thoughts:
Yeah, season 4 is probably the best yet. I didn't find it as purely enjoyable as season 3's highest points, but it's better made, and it's strong all the way through. And it's positively overflowing with those "one little event leads to another which leads to another which leads to another which leads to someone's life being forever changed" chains that define The Wire. I love tracing those back, even when (especially when?) the end result of them is heartbreaking, which is almost invariably is.
Spoilery thoughts:
The Vacants
Man, were they toying with us on those vacants, or what? I stupidly didn't realize how they were hiding the bodies for a few episodes, but once I did the entire season was me and my wife screaming at the TV, imploring people to tell Lester what they know. There were two or three near-revelations, and I think there were several different ways he could have found out. I was almost certain Dukie would end up solving it for him: he found a body in one of the vacants, he was so quiet, and he was opening up to Prez, who was being so kind to him. I figure he knows Prez used to be a cop, so at some point he trusts him enough to tell him about the body, and Prez mentions it to Lester, and boom, bodies galore. Perfect, right? Except that's not how he finds out!
Prez
I was so excited when Prez walked through that door in the first episode. I knew it was him on the security camera.
Herc
You really end up loathing him at the end of all this. We'd already been heading that way throughout season 3, when he made it clear that he just wanted to bust heads in, and even believed this was the best way to deal with the drug problem. I can't tell what happens to him from the end of this episode, but you kind of have to hope he loses his job. And if he doesn't, it'll just be another example of the broken system: the union being so strong, and the act of firing an officer so difficult, that even Herc gets to keep knocking heads for a living.
One thing that irks me just the slightest about Herc's increasing stupidity and Carver's increasing thoughtfulness: it seemed like it was going to go the other way in season 1, when Carver was no better and Daniels noticed Herc giving some new guys the same little lecture Daniels had given others about building bigger, better cases. It seemed odd to me that this little moment ends up being a bit of a throwaway, since they went in exactly the opposite direction. Still, I like Carv as a little Bunny disciple walking around now.
Carv
Speaking of Carv, how about that anger in his car? I saw it coming, and was kind of dreading it, but I can't think of a much better summary for the show. A guy spends years realizing what's wrong with the system, tries so hard to fight it, and in the end becomes enraged by his inability to do so.
McNulty
Jimmy McNulty back as a detective? I don't think I like this. I'm pretty torn on whether or not it'll go well, but I have to think it mostly won't. Or, at least, it won't go smoothly, whether he finds a happy medium between the self-destructive guy that puts the case before everything else in his life, and the happy but oh-so-slightly unfulfilled cop who misses the more complicated work. The smart thing is to take the sure, happy life.
What's really got me thinking is whether or not he's had this itch to get back to detective-ing for awhile, or whether or not it arose by chance. In other words (here comes another causal chain!): if he hadn't noticed Bodie sitting there eating, hadn't talked to him and started to bond with him, and therefore hadn't pulled some strings to get him out of jail, and therefore hadn't turned him into an informant, and therefore hadn't felt bad and riled up about him getting killed. Was Jimmy always going to give being a detective another shot, or was it only this dramatic, improbable series of events that ultimately pushed him over the edge? I feel bad for Beadie already, and the kids, even if they do call him "McNulty." :laugh:
Ell. Em. Eh. Oh.
Prop Joe's white guy voice is friggin' hysterical.
Michael and Chris
Clearly, they share a few things in common. Time for me to talk about being both stupid and smart. First, stupid: it went right over my head, for a couple of episodes, that Bug's father had sexually abused Michael. Smart: I knew instantly that Chris understood what had happened to Michael, and that something similar may have happened to him. Chris is what Michael's going to turn into, if he keeps going. The revelation about Chris sure does paint him in a new light.
Randy
Poor, poor Randy.
Quick rant: I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate the "don't snitch" culture, in all its forms. All of them. It makes me furious, in part because it's so irrational and kneejerk and devoid of context, and it's perpetuated only because people don't stop to think about what it really means. This is one of many reasons I love On the Waterfront; because the speech by Father Barry is the best refutation of this kind of culture that I've ever heard, and it's so rare and so satisfying to hear someone really articulate its insanity.
And, of course, Randy's casual chain is worth mentioning, too, because it's one of the craziest of the series (not all of this is from memory, obviously):
He's asked to be lookout for the little sexual romp with Tiff in the bathroom...the two boys later humiliate her...she gets back at them by accusing them of rape...Randy gets called to the office to explain his role in things and blurts out something about Lex's murder to avoid getting in trouble...Prez, when he learns of the murder angle, goes to Daniels instead of Lester...Daniels assigns it to Carver, who calls Bunk...INTERRUPTION WITH RELATED CHAIN...Omar's framing leads him to call Bunk to cash in his favor from Ilene Nathan...Bunk doesn't care because he's guilty of other murders, anyway, and Omar points out that that still leaves a killer on the streets just before Bunk walks out on him...Bunk interferes in Crutchfield's case and pisses him off...Crutchfield takes Carver's message for Bunk and throws it away in anger as a result...END OF SUB-CHAIN, BEGINNING OF ANOTHER RELATED CHAIN...Prop Joe tells Marlo to steal the camera Herc's moronically planted outside...Herc desperately tries to bring in a murder to distract from his screwup...Herc is so incompetent that Sydnor leaves him to interrogate Little Kevin by himself, and he gives up Randy's name...Little Kevin tells Marlo about it (because Bodie convinced him to be upfront about his run-in with Herc)...Marlo decides to let Randy's thing slide, but Snoop speaks up and suggests they spread the rumor around instead...
...and all that leads to Randy being branded a snitch, his foster mother ending up in the hospital, and Randy ending back up in a group home. Brutal.
Oh, none of it would've happened if he hadn't been selling candy at the dice game right at that moment, either.
Carcetti
Ugh. So close. He was clearly going back and forth between genuine reformer and run-of-the-mill ambitious politician, and for awhile it looked like he was going to end up being the (re)former. Meeting with all the right people, asking all the right questions about the department, and man, strolling into each public works department and telling them there's a problem without giving them an address was friggin' brilliant...
...but the end makes it clear that he's chosen his own career over helping the city. It may be true that he can/will do more good as Governor in two years, but a) that's assuming he wins, b) it's a convenient rationalization for political expediency, even if it might be sorta true, and c) if he becomes Governor, he'll tell himself the same thing about the country as a whole, so he can run for President. This isn't the kind of choice you stop making. All because he couldn't swallow his pride (and risk a far greater career, even though he's already come further than he must have thought was really possible) with the Governor. It's clear to me that we're supposed to view this as the "wrong" choice, for any number of reasons. And it's clear his wife thinks so, too, although she didn't speak up when she had the chance. But the fact that he asked her while simultaneously talking up the Governor rationalization shows that they both know it's the wrong call, deep down, or else why try to sell it at all?
That shot at the end, though, with him in the chair...it tells us all we need to know. I still think he'll do some good, but when his ambitions clash head-on with running the city the best way possible, we know what he'll choose. I think this still makes him a damn sight better than Royce, but it makes him a damn sight worse than he could be, too.
Dialogue
This post is insanely long so I'll just point out two brilliant double-meanings: Norman signing "...we won't leave until we get some," referring to both figgy pudding and statewide funds, and Royce's "don't mention it" to Herc, referring to both the generosity he's showing him and the indiscretion he saw.
The End
Daniels saying he used to go to school in the gym where they're storing the bodies was perfect. "Got a pretty good education, too," he says, which tells us a lot. It tells us that being in at least a decent school is why he's become an accomplished professional, and it may have been the only thing keeping him off the streets. It also confirms what had already become pretty clear: that the show itself, if it were a person, would have voted for Tony Gray, who was talking about education throughout the campaign, and was drowned out by sexier, scarier issues like murdered witnesses and crime in general.
The Wire clearly suggests, with this line, that the problem is too big to fix now; that it has grown to the point at which you can only fix it later, by starting earlier in the process. But in the midst of a campaign, who's going to be roused by such a dire, important truth?
Now, it looks like season 3 was just an attempt at reform necessary for learning the hard way how it really had to be. Bunny tried something a bit crazy, but he did it for the right reasons, and it led him to the real solution: start younger, start earlier. You don't partition addicts from other people, you partition one generation from the next.
The MCU
...I actually applauded at the reconstituted MCU. Daniels has oversight, Marimow is gone, and Lester has free reign to take down Marlo and Prop Joe however he can. Beautiful. His challenge is greater than ever, as the MCU over the years has, with its successes, also had the side effect of making the drug trade far more cautious, but I know they'll find a way.
Whew. I wonder if anyone will actually read all that. :D
The Prestige
01-18-11, 02:49 PM
Great post as per, Yoda. Must admit, didn't think you'd get so far in the series this quick. I underestimated your addiction ;). I've only gotten to the beginning of season 3 myself, tbh, but will try and complete the rest of the series in another week or so.
Now, to address some of your points..
I actually didn't catch the potential role reversal of Herk and Carver in season 1. I did always think though that if any of those two guys were going to be developed into a fully functional and and effective lawman, it was always going to be Carver just going by his guilt for the stitch up on Daniels at the end of season 1. From then on I figured this guy would go through a bit of a journey. Herk on the other hand is always like 'i ****ed up' and that's it. No self reflection in his actions, just more concerned with looking like a douche (which he often does) and losing his job.
The final Carver scene where he switches in the car is pretty profound, you are right. Definitey a case of pure frustration. I mean, there a lot of people out there who will tell you 'oh well if you want it you gotta do it yourself', and even though I genuinely agree with that statement, I have come to accept the fact that there are forces in life that just can't be manipulated no matter how hard you try. An individual can only do so much and I do think that Carver ends up having a hard time accepting that because it wasn't until that season where he REALLY tried to fight and unfortunately there was the opposite result of his intentions. What can you?
McNulty..boy, I don't want to say too much about season 5. In fact, I will say nothing accept that I imagine your initial reservations will prove to be right. I didn't like the idea of him coming back as a full on detective either, and season 5 just reinforces why. West is a good actor, but I find McNulty very irritating. Not sure why West gets first billing too considering this is an ensemble piece. Should be in alphabetical order which means he should pop up right at the end. That's a minor criticism, however, just think you'll be somewhat disappointed with his arc in season 5, though.
I don't want to say too much about Michael and Chris having seen season 5, but it is pretty obvious where he is heading. It's a shame aswell because Michael clearly has so much potential to contribute to any society. He has strong leadership skills, he physically tough, a bizarre mix of street wise and emotional intelligence. He, like quite a few of the criminals in The Wire, is an example of wasting youth. I always understood that he was sexually abused, just going by how he reacted around male adults and other stuff.
Some more thoughts later, but watching it again is almost as hypnotic as it was the first time I watched the show.
Lets get this thread going a bit more, guys :). We'll save Deadwood for another thread as I think it is definitely a show that deserves one.
Quick question, Yoda. Do you think that Avon would have had D killed had Stringer not done it?
Tacitus
01-18-11, 03:04 PM
I'll not spoiler this (because it doesn't deal with specifics) but in response to the last couple of posts, McNulty is my least favourite among the main characters, by which I mean the 'important' police (not Herc and Carver, who I think started out as almost comic relief) and their counterparts on the other side of the fence.
I've harped on about what happens to the character in Season 5 enough, though, but I don't think he's anywhere near the strongest member of his team all the way through.
I guess that all professions have a team member who's physical and mental input is less than their verbal output and they can fly under the radar for a lot longer than more obvious bullsh*t merchants so I can understand why he's in the show.
But the high billing? Not exactly, and this is one for aficionados, 'spot on'. Arf! :D
EDIT:
You're saying that you didn't twig that Michael's father abused his little brother for a few episodes. The way I read it was that this was a story concocted by Michael to get dad out of the way, seeing that child abusers are the lowest rung of the criminal ladder and Chris would have no problem dealing with him.
I need to sit down and write thoughts too, but this move is taking up all of my time.
Quick word, the ending sequences to both seasons 3 and 4 are incredible.
Also, I haven't seen Deadwood either :D
Hey, something else fun worth noting about season 4...
...if Bunk hadn't made Omar promise not to kill anyone, he might have killed Marlo for them. Oops
Great post as per, Yoda. Must admit, didn't think you'd get so far in the series this quick. I underestimated your addiction ;). I've only gotten to the beginning of season 3 myself, tbh, but will try and complete the rest of the series in another week or so.
Yeah, seriously, we went through that last one pretty fast. And I've got a feeling that, with the finish line in sight, we'll probably have the last one done sometime this weekend.
I actually didn't catch the potential role reversal of Herk and Carver in season 1. I did always think though that if any of those two guys were going to be developed into a fully functional and and effective lawman, it was always going to be Carver just going by his guilt for the stitch up on Daniels at the end of season 1. From then on I figured this guy would go through a bit of a journey. Herk on the other hand is always like 'i ****ed up' and that's it. No self reflection in his actions, just more concerned with looking like a douche (which he often does) and losing his job.
Absolutely. 99% of what we've seen points that way. I was just struck by that one moment pointing the other way at the end of season 1, because at the time I extrapolated from it and took it to mean that things would be the opposite of the way they ended up being. Notice how I said that all vaguely enough so as to avoid using a spoiler tag? :D
McNulty..boy, I don't want to say too much about season 5. In fact, I will say nothing accept that I imagine your initial reservations will prove to be right. I didn't like the idea of him coming back as a full on detective either, and season 5 just reinforces why. West is a good actor, but I find McNulty very irritating. Not sure why West gets first billing too considering this is an ensemble piece. Should be in alphabetical order which means he should pop up right at the end. That's a minor criticism, however, just think you'll be somewhat disappointed with his arc in season 5, though.
Yeah, I think Taccy said that about McNulty in season 5, too. From the vantage point of not having seen it, I wonder if that's it genuinely being "meh," or just a reflection of how frustrated we become with the character? Don't answer that, I'll find out soon enough.
I don't want to say too much about Michael and Chris having seen season 5, but it is pretty obvious where he is heading. It's a shame aswell because Michael clearly has so much potential to contribute to any society. He has strong leadership skills, he physically tough, a bizarre mix of street wise and emotional intelligence. He, like quite a few of the criminals in The Wire, is an example of wasting youth. I always understood that he was sexually abused, just going by how he reacted around male adults and other stuff.
Yeah, absolutely. I think Chris goes down for some of those murders (or Marlo kills him because it looks like he might), and Michael takes his place.
Quick question, Yoda. Do you think that Avon would have had D killed had Stringer not done it?
That's a tough one, isn't it? I lean towards "no," but only just barely. I do think that Avon would've kept giving DeAngelo chance after chance, if nothing else. But mainly, when I think of the Avon/Stringer confrontation, it "rings true" in the sense that it feels as if the things said there are meant to be taken as true. I'm sure you know what I mean; a very trustworthy or wise character says something, or the music swells, or they go on a bit longer than you'd expect, and it becomes clear we're being told something.
Anyway, when Stringer held Avon down (albeit with an injured shoulder) and told him he had DeAngelo killed because Avon would've never been able to do it, I took it as the truth.
I'll not spoiler this (because it doesn't deal with specifics) but in response to the last couple of posts, McNulty is my least favourite among the main characters, by which I mean the 'important' police (not Herc and Carver, who I think started out as almost comic relief) and their counterparts on the other side of the fence.
I've harped on about what happens to the character in Season 5 enough, though, but I don't think he's anywhere near the strongest member of his team all the way through.
I guess that all professions have a team member who's physical and mental input is less than their verbal output and they can fly under the radar for a lot longer than more obvious bullsh*t merchants so I can understand why he's in the show.
This is using "least [favorite]" (;D) to mean you don't like him on a personal level, right? It's not a comment on how interesting or well-played the character is?
If that's the case, I'm mixed. Thinking of him as a character, and of his portrayal, I think he's up there. But on a personal level, yeah, he's messed up, but like most TV viewers I can forgive a lot if a) the person knows they're messed up, b) the person feels kinda bad that they're messed up, and c) the person is really, really good at what they do, particularly if what they do is inherently good. So I probably give McNulty a lot of rope there, though I've little doubt he'll need all of it, and then some.
Re: the cast billing. That's just a function of him being the main character in the first season and one of the more constant presences throughout the first three, isn't it? He's probably the closest thing to a primary character the show has.
You're saying that you didn't twig that Michael's father abused his little brother for a few episodes. The way I read it was that this was a story concocted by Michael to get dad out of the way, seeing that child abusers are the lowest rung of the criminal ladder and Chris would have no problem dealing with him.
I'm saying I didn't twig that Michael's father had abused Michael. I don't think Bug was ever abused, specifically because Michael was looking out for it the whole time and had it dealt with, albeit with murder.
I'm not sure if you're suggesting that Michael was lying about being molested, or lying about Bug being molested, but either way, if he's being sly, he's being very sly, given that he never actually names the crime, so he'd have to a) know that Chris had been molested somehow AND know that he'd pick up on a subtle non-answer or b) have just gotten lucky on that front.
Tacitus
01-18-11, 04:01 PM
Yep, I'm suggesting that. ;)
I don't think it's such a great leap to think that Chris has spoken with Michael about growing up hard with a rotten father. Whether Chris's dad did anything more than hit him is a moot point - he understands what Michael is hinting at.
Michael wants dad out of the way ASAP and the way the situation plays out becomes his first 'hit'. He's got no love for the man, only emptiness.
EDIT - I think I've seen season 4 three times now and it's always played out that way to me. I never thought for one moment that Michael was telling the truth - there's not a hint of it when you see the family together other than dad being a lazy waster who's mere presence is bad for all of them.
I hear you about McNulty being the closest thing the show has to a lead (and I'm not really criticising West's performance, apart from the occasional accent slippage) but boy do they find a convoluted way in keeping him the de facto lead by the end. ;)
EDIT - I suppose that I don't think that McNulty was really, really good at his job. He's got a natural instinct and his resentment acts as a MacGuffin (the whole of season 2, for example) but he's more of a talker than a walker.
My dad was a drunken, whoring cop by the way so it in no way colours my feelings towards McNulty's character. Or maybe it does...
The Prestige
01-20-11, 07:30 PM
Hey, something else fun worth noting about season 4...
...if Bunk hadn't made Omar promise not to kill anyone, he might have killed Marlo for them. Oops
Yeah, that's true. Forgot about that. But won't anymore as you haven't finished season 5 yet ;).
Absolutely. 99% of what we've seen points that way. I was just struck by that one moment pointing the other way at the end of season 1, because at the time I extrapolated from it and took it to mean that things would be the opposite of the way they ended up being. Notice how I said that all vaguely enough so as to avoid using a spoiler tag? :D
Yeah, I noticed now, lol. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting observation though. For me it was something that sort of grrfew without me really noticing, which I think says a lot about how good the writing and performances really are.
That's a tough one, isn't it? I lean towards "no," but only just barely. I do think that Avon would've kept giving DeAngelo chance after chance, if nothing else. But mainly, when I think of the Avon/Stringer confrontation, it "rings true" in the sense that it feels as if the things said there are meant to be taken as true. I'm sure you know what I mean; a very trustworthy or wise character says something, or the music swells, or they go on a bit longer than you'd expect, and it becomes clear we're being told something.
Anyway, when Stringer held Avon down (albeit with an injured shoulder) and told him he had DeAngelo killed because Avon would've never been able to do it, I took it as the truth.[quote=Yoda;709221]
I'm almost 100 per cent with you on that one except I honestly do not think that Avon has it in him to do that to his own flesh and blood. Avon was all about the community, that's what sets him apart from guys like Marlo. He can play the ruthless gang lord role that's required of him, but he is a pretty traditional guy whose cruelty has certain limitations. That's what I loved about the character. A real case of him being black and white. And Wood Harris does a PHENOMENAL job in portraying that. Good for pointing out that even Stringer said Avon would never have done it as if anybody knows Avon well enough is String, and if String is saying that Avon couldn't kill D then it's without a doubt the truth.
Interested to see what you think of season 5.
TheUsualSuspect
01-21-11, 01:55 AM
Baltimore Police Commissioner Doesn't Like The Wire (http://www.avclub.com/articles/baltimore-police-commissioner-slams-the-wire-david,50274/)
I figured this topic was more 'hot' then the other Wire thread, so I decided to place it here.
Sorry for the delay! Two episodes into season 5, taking a short break, both so others can catch up and so I can get more done. :D And maybe even, you know, watch a movie or two. But I think we're probably no more than a week away from wrapping things up.
Yep, I'm suggesting that. ;)
I don't think it's such a great leap to think that Chris has spoken with Michael about growing up hard with a rotten father. Whether Chris's dad did anything more than hit him is a moot point - he understands what Michael is hinting at.
Michael wants dad out of the way ASAP and the way the situation plays out becomes his first 'hit'. He's got no love for the man, only emptiness.
EDIT - I think I've seen season 4 three times now and it's always played out that way to me. I never thought for one moment that Michael was telling the truth - there's not a hint of it when you see the family together other than dad being a lazy waster who's mere presence is bad for all of them.
Interesting. I've had the opposite reaction: it always seemed obvious to me that Michael was being honest, mainly because it just strikes me as really, really subtle for him to pick up on Chris' past (Chris doesn't seem like a very talkative guy), and count on him to read the situation the way he does, etc. And I didn't think we'd really seen Michael do anything like that before.
I dunno what this is worth, but I've been reading Alan Sepinwall's recaps (he's a TV critic), and he was of the same opinion. Then again, that might have influenced my own thinking. I can't imagine there's a way to get a definitive answer here, but if I find one, I'll be sure to post it, because now I kind of want to go back and rewatch a few of these scenes.
Oh, and all that stuff you guys said about the McNulty subplot in season 5? We're just getting the first taste of it at the end of the second episode, but all I can say is that they'd better have something clever up their sleeves, because at (very) first glance, it feels about as out of place as Brother Mouzone did when he first showed up.
I hear you about McNulty being the closest thing the show has to a lead (and I'm not really criticising West's performance, apart from the occasional accent slippage) but boy do they find a convoluted way in keeping him the de facto lead by the end. ;)
EDIT - I suppose that I don't think that McNulty was really, really good at his job. He's got a natural instinct and his resentment acts as a MacGuffin (the whole of season 2, for example) but he's more of a talker than a walker.
My dad was a drunken, whoring cop by the way so it in no way colours my feelings towards McNulty's character. Or maybe it does...
Hehehe. Nice.
I guess the job performance thing is the real divide. I think of him as an excellent detective, though the better part of that being sheer tenacity, which seems to go a long way. I got the impression we're supposed to think he's pretty awesome at it, too, but that it turns him into a loathsome person. Then again, maybe he looks good because his primary value is in giving a crap, and almost nobody else around him does. Hard to parse that out. I still like him, though, whether I'm supposed to or not.
I think of him as an excellent detective, though the better part of that being sheer tenacity, which seems to go a long way. I got the impression we're supposed to think he's pretty awesome at it, too, but that it turns him into a loathsome person. Then again, maybe he looks good because his primary value is in giving a crap, and almost nobody else around him does. Hard to parse that out. I still like him, though, whether I'm supposed to or not.
That's a consistent vibe I got from this and Simon's Homicide (book) - the idea of people slogging away when others wouldn't have. They get messed up by their tenacity (or perhaps they come to it slightly messed up? ;) Who knows - certainly Simons was in a bit of messed up state when he was 'embedded' and writing Homicide so maybe his whole view is off colour? ;))... but they get the occasional reward of having an effect.
Tacitus
01-26-11, 03:17 PM
I did a stupid thing and started Deadwood again last week - bad move, you should never mix yer TV boxsets - so am 4 or 5 discs away from the Michael/Chris thing.
If, once I've watched it again, I have a Eureka moment and thing I've been misreading the whole thing, never fear: I'll proclaim my great wrongness from the hilltops. Can't say fairer than that. :p
Oh, and all that stuff you guys said about the McNulty subplot in season 5? We're just getting the first taste of it at the end of the second episode, but all I can say is that they'd better have something clever up their sleeves, because at (very) first glance, it feels about as out of place as Brother Mouzone did when he first showed up.
The Brother was much more believable ... ermm ... believe me. ;)
I find it such a shame because the newspaper segments are really well done.
Yeah, I agree. I've only got a handful of them in so far, but I was stunned when, after maybe three scenes at the Sun, I already felt completely engrossed in it. I think, after four seasons, a viewer knows enough about to what to expect from The Wire, and is prepared enough for being thrust into a new part of the city, that it feels second-nature now. Really digging that aspect of it so far. Kinda feels like the newspaper stuff is what Simon really wanted to talk about, with the other subplots just there to link it all together a bit more explicitly and/or wrap up some other characters' stories.
Tacitus
01-26-11, 03:32 PM
Yep, as I said before, McNulty is a MacGuffin (a McNuffin? ;D) for large parts of the show. You'll see this the deeper you get into season 5.
Hitchcock would be rolling in his grave at this particular one, however...
The Prestige
01-27-11, 03:05 PM
You're saying that you didn't twig that Michael's father abused his little brother for a few episodes. The way I read it was that this was a story concocted by Michael to get dad out of the way, seeing that child abusers are the lowest rung of the criminal ladder and Chris would have no problem dealing with him.
Dunno about this one, mate. I too always got the vibe that Michael had been sexually abused by the guy. You only have to look to how he responds with older adults. Remember the bit where Cutty took him and the other lad to a boxing fight? Cutty tries to bond with Michael in that particular moment and I think he talks about how one of the boxer is in good shape to which Michael nervously turns to the other lad that is with them and starts banging on about how hot he finds this girl or whatever. I felt that particular moment combined with the other subtle stuff indicated that Michael had been sexually abused. I never once thought he was lying though it is interesting you saw it another way. That's what makes this show great, how people can interpret different stuff.
Tacitus
01-27-11, 03:29 PM
The way he acts around Cutty when they're alone in the car after the fight is probably more overt - He can't get out of that car quick enough, misreading Cutty's genuinely well meaning intentions for something more disturbing - BUT it could also be an indication that he has mistaken one Dennis Wise for another (http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZwADu-pCyfBS8lHT-a_uu4u5FMlU9pyjnJ2VtY4LhbExLKwwn&t=1). I'd certainly not want to spend too much time with the latter...
I dunno, you guys are talking me round but I realise I have to slog through season 3 first (I'll finally end S2 tonight) before I can fully make my mind up. :)
The Prestige
01-27-11, 08:11 PM
Hehe, I had to look up the Dennis Wise footballer. The fact that he was associated with Vinnie Jones during his heydays says it all really.
Equilibrium
01-30-11, 07:50 AM
I just finished watcing Prison Break (holy hell, I don't think any show will ever capture me like that one did) and was thinking about starting up a new show I never got around to....I have battlestar Galactica (never seen it except 1 episode) and The wire lying around. Decisions decisions...
Equilibrium
01-30-11, 07:51 AM
It...is done. Whew.
So whats the final verdict on this show?
So, so good. And it's nice to a) not have to worry about spoilers any more and b) be able to read all the interviews and articles, and listen to the all the podcasts, that I've had to avoid. I have a couple dozen links saved in a text file that I can plow through once finished, so that should be fun.
I'll write up some more thoughts later, and I definitely can't wait to see what some of the others watching for the first time think along the way (my friend Tim just finished season 1; I might pester him to stop by this thread at some point). For now, I'll just say that I agree with most of the other people here that season 4 is probably the best, and season 2 is probably the weakest, but all five seasons are just gradations of excellence.
I actually liked season 5 far, far more than I'd thought based on what others had said about it, as well as what I'd expected after the first two episodes. As absurd as the central storyline is, I think that really just drives Simon's overall point about the dysfunctionality of the system, and I think it's intentionally over-the-top. I also think it's pretty well executed, and my MO has been that I like the gritty realism, but I'll take the crazier stuff if it's done superbly.
Man, what a show. I'm sad it's gone already.
Oh, and I would totally recommend The Wire to basically anyone who loves great TV shows. And I love the idea of another person watching it! I don't think I'll ever pass up an opportunity to pick the brain of someone in the middle of it, or to talk about it with anyone who wants to. There's so much there.
Tacitus
01-30-11, 02:01 PM
I'm mid way through season 3 now and while I know it picks up towards the end, it's as (comparatively) disappointing as I remember it.
It could be for a number of reasons:
Herc and Carver being more to the fore.
The Major Crimes Unit being nothing more than an outlet for McNulty's increasingly tiresome railing against The System for large parts of the season. Dom West isn't the best drunk in the world, either.
Flipping Hamsterdam.
It's just not as tight as 1 or 2. Good TV for the most part, very good in places, fantastic a couple of times but not vintage Wire. I'd compare season 3 to The Shield, if anything - Pacy, verbose, perfectly watchable but not classic.
One thing which tickled me yesterday and sums up the character of Stringer perfectly - He wears his seatbelt. ;D
SamsoniteDelilah
01-30-11, 02:07 PM
I mostly agree with you Tatty, but I love Hamsterdam. The plot comes from actual city politics and explores a what if that we all consider, but seldom really examine. I think it's fascinating to watch them work through what we could reasonably anticipate as the outcome of implementation of such an idea.
Tacitus
01-30-11, 02:16 PM
I liked the idea but Bunny's naivety is out of place. As he's fond of saying, he's an experienced officer not long from retirement.
That said, I've not seen the Hamsterdam experiment play out on this rewatch so might have a few more ideas when I'm finished with it. ;)
Brodinski
01-31-11, 04:29 AM
So, so good. And it's nice to a) not have to worry about spoilers any more and b) be able to read all the interviews and articles, and listen to the all the podcasts, that I've had to avoid. I have a couple dozen links saved in a text file that I can plow through once finished, so that should be fun.
I'll write up some more thoughts later, and I definitely can't wait to see what some of the others watching for the first time think along the way (my friend Tim just finished season 1; I might pester him to stop by this thread at some point). For now, I'll just say that I agree with most of the other people here that season 4 is probably the best, and season 2 is probably the weakest, but all five seasons are just gradations of excellence.
I actually liked season 5 far, far more than I'd thought based on what others had said about it, as well as what I'd expected after the first two episodes. As absurd as the central storyline is, I think that really just drives Simon's overall point about the dysfunctionality of the system, and I think it's intentionally over-the-top. I also think it's pretty well executed, and my MO has been that I like the gritty realism, but I'll take the crazier stuff if it's done superbly.
Man, what a show. I'm sad it's gone already.
Aww, you got your The Wire cherry popped.
Seriously, nice to hear you think this way, Chris. I gotta ask: What did you think when...
Omar was shot to death by tht little Kid, Kenard I think? It was so totally unglamorized. No fire fight going before it; no trap set by Marlo's people; no multiple rounds fired into him while robbing a stash house. Just a little kid with a gun shooting him from behind. That was a brutal, yet such a brilliant scene. When you live the life that Omar lived, you shouldn't expect to live forever unless you get out and your death will likely not be pretty.
Also, what's your favourite moment? I know it's very hard to narrow it down, so you can name a few. Mine are:
Lines of great dialogue:
"My name's Proposition Joe. **** with me, I'll kill your whole family."
"Business... always business"
Bodie using the metaphor of the chess game to explain the situation he's in.
Moments of laugh out loud fun:
"So what is it? The Bunk's cologne? *sniff sniff* Ooohh, pussy."
The Bunk: The hell with Norris. You're my real partner Lester.
Freamon: Don't tease, b!tch.
"Look at that bow-legged motherfvcker. I made him walk like that"
But I think my favourite moment is one that lasts only a few seconds. It's when Bubbles runs up the stairs of his sister's basement. He is finally allowed to have dinner at her table after spending so many days practically locked in that basement. I wanted it to end well for Bubs so badly and seeing him jog up those stairs casually, like it "wasn't no thing" really moved me.
In other news, I've just convinced a mate to start watching it before my exams commenced. He told me 2 days ago that that watching it for the 1st time during his exams was a terrible idea. He actually cut back on his studying so he could watch more Wire.
The Wire: now also making you flunk at school.
I'm done.
Season 5 seemed to be down played by everyone with no hype at all. I was in for a total surprise because the final season became my favorite, I absolutely loved it. Despite it being sorta gimmicky, you really have to respect the way Simon and co ended everything - it was incredibly impressive to me.
My thoughts are mostly all random right now, I couldn't organize them if I tried.
Herc ended up fitting in quite well with Levy. I honestly didn't see the leak of Marlo's phone number by Herc as a tactical move by Levy, that was a bit of a jaw dropping moment for me.
Omar's death was absolutely brilliant. I definitely had to pick my jaw up off of the floor. As Brodinski said, Omar was risking everything while calling out Marlo - all it took was a child to end it all.
A really great moment for me was Marlo leaving the business gathering that he was attending with Levy and walking out to one of his old corners. That was a brilliant scene.
What was truly amazing to me though was how the circularness of it all was portrayed. I mean everything. Nothing in that city is different. Just some interchangeable names. And it's brilliant.
As for my favorite moment. It has to be when Bunk and McNulty solve a crime scene with each other while only using the work "****".
My favorite characters are Bunk, McNulty, Prezbo, Bubbles, Daniels, and Lester. Shiit, I loved all the characters. Even good ole Clay Davis. sheeeeiiiiiitttttt. :laugh:
I would rank the seasons as:
5
4
1
3
2
I know that I am probably in the minority ranking 5 over 4, but I truly loved exploring what McNulty and Lester were attempting and the repercussions and even positives that came as a result.
Sorry this is all jumbled. I am quite bummed out that it is all over, this is probably my favorite TV series.
Also, Yoda, can you share your word document full of The Wire goodies? :D
Been thinking about it a lot and I wish there would've been a more happy closure between Daniels and McNulty/Lester. I guess a "good police" line would've satisfied me. Oh well.
I gotta ask: What did you think when...
Omar was shot to death by tht little Kid, Kenard I think? It was so totally unglamorized. No fire fight going before it; no trap set by Marlo's people; no multiple rounds fired into him while robbing a stash house. Just a little kid with a gun shooting him from behind. That was a brutal, yet such a brilliant scene. When you live the life that Omar lived, you shouldn't expect to live forever unless you get out and your death will likely not be pretty.
My answer is complicated by a few things...
I had this sorta-kinda spoiled for me. I was looking up something else about the show, and there was some site where a big, fat spoiler about Omar dying was just sitting there. It was bizarre, inexplicable, and pretty freaking annoying. However, it said that he was killed by Slim Charles. While looking at The Wire on Metacritic later, just to see how certain people received it at the time, I see some user do the same lame-ass thing: he was complaining about how Omar was shot by "some kid."
This was both good and bad. Bad, because it's a spoiler, and that guy's a freaking tool for posting that there without warning. Good, because the conflicting spoilers at least put some doubt in my mind about how it would happen.
All that said...even though it probably sounds ridiculous, I don't think it ruined things for me much. I'd felt from very early on that Omar probably wouldn't live through the entire series (I predicted it a couple of seasons ago in this thread somewhere, though I was off about the cause), and even if I hadn't, by the time he was hobbling around trying to pick a fight with Marlo, it got pretty obvious to anyone who'd figured out how the world of The Wire works. Still, very sudden.
Anyway, I'm with you: I like it. It makes sense. A big showdown would've felt a little contrived, and some reviewers have pointed out that a) they deliberately used western iconography with Omar, and b) there are a few classic westerns where the hero's gun downed by a similarly shocking person. So I think it's fair, and it fits, and like most things, the seeds were planted long before: Kenard's been around, he's been incredibly tough for a kid his age, and we even saw him pretending to BE Omar way back in season 3, in the double murder out on the street by a stash house that Bunk ended up catching.
I also like that it happens just after Omar ignores his code by killing Savino. At this point he's broken his word/code and he's inspired a young kid to be like him, so it's all pretty poetic, to my mind. I'm sure it infuriated some viewers, but I think it's fair.
Also, what's your favourite moment?
I'm putting a list together for another post about the entire series, so if it's cool I'll put a little more time into that and post it then. But right off the bat, I'm amazed at how many of the ones stuck in my head are a) comedic and b) McNulty-centric.
But I think my favourite moment is one that lasts only a few seconds. It's when Bubbles runs up the stairs of his sister's basement. He is finally allowed to have dinner at her table after spending so many days practically locked in that basement. I wanted it to end well for Bubs so badly and seeing him jog up those stairs casually, like it "wasn't no thing" really moved me.
Agreed. And it's potent because it's a) not earned (Bubs sister is giving him another change) and b) completely earned, in the narrative sense. We've waited a long time for it and had to go through a lot with Bubs to get to that point.
Tacitus
02-02-11, 04:14 PM
Here's a nice little undemanding question to ponder whilst mulling over some deeper significances in the show - what's everyone's favourite version of the theme song?
It's gotta be Season 3's Neville Brothers take, for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4u6XdlM6pE
My favorite would have to be the version by Tom Waits
Definitely season 1. By a loooong shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1ABR4UpDSU
I like them all for what they are; I probably like the Waits one the least. I was pretty shocked to learn that his is the original. Singing aside, that many can write a heck of a song; I was expecting to find it was some kind of 80-year-old southern traditional or something.
Tacitus
02-02-11, 05:27 PM
Aye, I've never quite seen the appeal of Waits in general as a performer. I even preferred Rod Stewart's version of Downtown Train, which is enough to justify a kneecapping amongst my circle of friends. ;)
My least favourite, much as it pains me because I love the guy, is Steve 'Waylon' Earle's one in season 5. He just doesn't suit it. Or it him.
You guys are insane for hating on Tom Waits.
Season 5 is probably my second favorite version of the song ;)
So...total lack of consensus on this point, then. Heh.
I was having trouble finding the season 1 version until it was posted above. I can't decide if I like that one more than Tom Waits. They are both great though, so scratch my season 5 theme being my second favorite comment.
I can decisively say that the chicks version in season 4 is my least favorite, I don't like it much at all really.
christine
02-02-11, 06:48 PM
hmm. I really liked that they kept the same tune but changed the singers for each series, inspired idea. Hard to call which one is my fave tho. I love Tom Waits, but The Neville Bros is def my fave followed closely by The Blind Boys, then very closely by Tom Waits, then a gap ..... Steve Earle then Domaje
Tacitus
02-03-11, 05:55 AM
So...total lack of consensus on this point, then. Heh.
Excellent! :D
I finished season 3 last night and a few things struck me as to why I only rank season 5 below it.
I mentioned that awful Shaft opening and the way Hamsterdam was handled before but the thing that really struck in my craw on this rewatch was the way that Stringer was dispatched.
The distance growing and final realisation (that only one of them could stay on the street) between Avon and Stringer was handled really really well but Stringer's actual death came across like it had been directed by Michael Bay, with the wisecracking Odd Couple of Omar and Brother Mouzone taking centre stage and not the man who's life and chosen career path were rapidly collapsing around him, Stringer Bell.
I'd put up with Mouzone in season 2, mainly because I felt the character was just quirky enough - he could have been over-used in less skilled hands - without actually annoying me. His reappearance at such a crucial stage in the plot struck me as a bit bereft of ideas.
This is the third time I'd watched season 3 and every time the initial disappointments were starting to fade by the time I got to the final 5 episodes - The introduction of Carcetti (even though I don't think he's played particularly brilliantly by Aidan Gillen, he's not the caricature that Clay Davis is) is timely and further opens up Baltimore to the viewer after season 2 introduced us to the white working class.
Herc and Carver still annoy me, but I suppose it is their job to. One is a bright young officer without the confidence to actually think things through while the other is, frankly, a meathead lucky to be in any kind of employment. I think it was time for them to be split up, though, and fortunately that happens later on.
McNulty hasn't quite reached his zenith of pomposity but he's getting close to the plateau. Fortunately season 4 has him in more of a back seat.
Marlo and his crew are very welcome. Initially I didn't take to the guy - He was almost too cold, verging on the listless. The more I watch him the more I realise that he's a product of his environment, nothing more, just as Avon was a symbolic of the previous generation and Prop Joe the one before that.
We saw something similar over here in NI - the longer The Troubles went on, the guys (agree with them or not) with an actual 'code' dwindled away to be replaced by borderline and not so borderline psychopaths. It was only when the new breed's actions started to invade the public conciousness that change for the better began to take place.
All in all, my feelings towards season 3 remain mixed. What it does well it does really well but there are as many troughs as there are peaks.
As such, I can appreciate season 4 all the more. :)
The Prestige
02-04-11, 10:47 PM
I'll go with with whoever did the first season one. I actually quite like the r'n'bish version for the 4th season mainly because of how it thematically related to the new generation and what not.
I think i'm kinda with Taccy on season 3. I actually put it just above season 5, too. I think that the Avon/Stringer relationship is by far the most interesting thing about the season, specially that brilliant 'just a gangster, I suppose' scene. Almost of their exchanges are wonderfully written, and even though their journey is fairly predictable, it's to the writers and Harris/Elba's credit that their scenes are gripping.
The Hamsterdam Story was initially fascinating mostly because it happened in real life, but I soon lost interest in it, and I am not even sure why.
Taccy says
Marlo and his crew are very welcome. Initially I didn't take to the guy - He was almost too cold, verging on the listless. The more I watch him the more I realise that he's a product of his environment, nothing more
Yeah, the introduction of a character like Marlo felt inevitable by then what with Avon and Bells relationship on the brinks. I get what you mean about him appearing 'too cold'. I felt he almost seemed as out of place as Brother Muzone in that he just appeared too one dimensional for a show that's renowned for being deeply layered. But about midway through season 4 I accepted that he was just pure evil. I think it's more than just a case of Marlo being a product of his environment. He is the ONLY character in The Wire with no redeemable qualities, and I guess it was necessary to have somebody like that in order to convey the notion that the most successful gangsters were the ones with no humanity, ties and nothing to lose. It's not coincidental that amicable east side man Prop Joe ends up dead, traditionalist and family orientated Avon in jail and youngin' Marlo as free as a butterfly.
The Prestige
02-04-11, 11:10 PM
My answer is complicated by a few things...
I had this sorta-kinda spoiled for me. I was looking up something else about the show, and there was some site where a big, fat spoiler about Omar dying was just sitting there. It was bizarre, inexplicable, and pretty freaking annoying. However, it said that he was killed by Slim Charles. While looking at The Wire on Metacritic later, just to see how certain people received it at the time, I see some user do the same lame-ass thing: he was complaining about how Omar was shot by "some kid."
This was both good and bad. Bad, because it's a spoiler, and that guy's a freaking tool for posting that there without warning. Good, because the conflicting spoilers at least put some doubt in my mind about how it would happen.
Yeah, a similar thing happened with me when I read about Stringers death long before I even got a chance to watch the show. Thing is though, this was spoiled in the TV GUIDE. I didn't know enough about the show to care back then, but I did have it at the back of my mind when I watched it. I didn't know that it was going to be Omar and Brother Muzone, though.
]I also like that it happens just after Omar ignores his code by killing Savino. At this point he's broken his word/code and he's inspired a young kid to be like him, so it's all pretty poetic, to my mind. I'm sure it infuriated some viewers, but I think it's fair.
I actually didn't realise that. Good call. It certainly makes his death more profound. It almost reminds me of Neil McCauley's demise in Heat where he ends up breaking his '30 seconds flat' rule and then pays for it.
One thing to ask you when you're ready, Yoda.what did you make of sort of of full circle ending for some of the younger characters like Michael and Dukie?
planet news
02-05-11, 02:42 PM
I love the season one opening too. But I've only seen two openings so...
Tacitus
02-16-11, 06:49 PM
Right then, I've made a start on season 4.
I think part of the reason I love this season so much is that I've got massive empathy with Prez. In my brief (a year's training and a couple or three at the coal face, a decade and a half ago) time teaching I spent a year with a class who had more rough diamonds than a Pretoria miner's wet dream.
The teaching part I loved, the 'stats' (as Prez soon finds out mirror what is happening with demands made from City Hall of the police service) were another matter.
Aaanyway, enough about me - The show!
I'll be back once I'm half way through. ;)
The Prestige
03-01-11, 03:06 PM
I'm on the 4th season too. Didn't know you used to teach, Dave. My mum's a teacher, which is ironic since i'm very anti authority. That was a joke. Kinda. ;)
For me the best thing about the season besides all of it has to be the emphasis on the kids and the school programme. I feel that by this season I came to the pretty horrible understanding that in B'more, you are 'lucky' to be alive by the age of 22. That's probably the life expectancy of those kids. Not only that, but achievement in anything is expected to either be shortlived or just a luck in the draw. This season seems to emphasis that more than the others, and to have the four lead young lads convey that makes it a pretty devasting season to watch.
Oh, and also theres very little McNulty in this season which doesn't hurt at all :) the scenes he is in are actually very strong too, like his scene with Bodie in that little park. I think that scene was as close as Bodie came to asking for a hug. Such a tender yet not overdone performance by JD Williams.
This show is probably better the 2nd time round. For those who have only seen each season watch, go for round 2.
Tacitus
03-01-11, 03:40 PM
My mum used to teach (as did my uncle) so it was doubly surprising I went into the profession. Not so surprising that I didn't stick at it. ;)
I've made a start on season 5 now and was planning on summing up when I'd finished the whole thing but season 4 still stands above all others.
I'm in two minds over whether he was abused but now pretty certain his little brother was.
Reasons why I'm still not 100% convinced Michael was a victim:
The guy isn't Michael's father (didn't cotton on to that until now - everyone refers to him around Michael as 'Bug's daddy', not 'your father') so the resentment is natural anyway, even if the guy was a saint. I don't know how old Michael was when the guy became head of the household.
Why I'm convinced he did something to Michael's brother, or at least was planning to:
The look on the guy's face when Michael comes home and finds him helping Bug with his homework. Shame, pure shame and the only time we see it from him. He looks Michael square in the eye when the two of them are talking at other times, which is another reason why I'm not so sure he ever touched the older brother.
Of course, all the above could be because he'd not done anything *yet* to Bug and Michael knew what might happen because of his past experiences with the guy. Is he so protective because of what happened to him (and might happen to Bug) or because of what already happened to the younger brother?
The abusive stepfather is an old literary device anyway but Michael is a very cold young man. The way he dispassionately observes the girl getting attacked in class right at the beginning - Violence doesn't bother him but he probably doesn't even consciously know that yet.
Is this because he was an abused child? If it is I think the writers took an easier path than working with a character who slid into gang culture because of his innate psychological make up.
I'm reading far too much into this, aren't I? :D
EDIT - Season 5 so far:
Dominic West is an awful drunk. ;)
The Prestige
03-03-11, 02:10 PM
I don't think you could ever read too far into a show like The Wire, Dave. ;)
I would like to reserve my response until I have actually finished the 4th season, but I will say those are some interesting observations and that I will play much closer to the Michael and Bug's dad scenes and maybe even go back a bit because I might have missed something. I'm not sure if I am getting it confused with a film or whatever but wasn't there are moment where Michael says something about how Bug's dad would never hurt Bug just him or whatever? ?
Tacitus
03-08-11, 08:54 AM
Don't know how I missed this before, I really don't. :blush:
Season 5, one of the middle episodes:
Bunk pulls out a file on Michael's stepfather, a charge of assault (physical or sexual I don't know) on Michael which never went to court because of lack of cooperation from the boy.
"Baby-bumpin' mutherf***er!" exclaims Bunk, who then describes what the man did to the boy as 'heinous' when questioning Michael.
Spank me now! ;D
Aaanyway, I'm done with season 5 and can thus make a start on the huge list of unwatched films that have built up in the last couple of months.
The final season was as frustrating and ultimately disappointing as I remember it. The newspaper stuff is great, the serial killer plot is clumsy and damn nearly ruinous.
That the *yawn* cop-on-the edge, McNulty, instigates the whole nonsense is one thing but a seasoned and clever guy such as Freamon coaching and cajoling him?
It just doesn't have the (presumable) grounding in reality that the show, up until then, had been lauded for. Maybe the creators had just run out of steam?
Ha. I missed that, too! I've been meaning to reply to your earlier reply, but I guess it's moot. What a dense show. It reminds me of Gus catching Fat Face Rick's legal name in a list of deaths early in season 5, but missing Proposition Joe's later one. I've always wondered what this was meant to suggest. I assumed it was either that a) Prop Joe laid so low that even a seasoned vet like Gus didn't recognize his name, b) Gus was overstretched and overworked like most of the people at the Sun, and missed it as a result, or c) a mix of both.
Re: season 5. I don't think they ran out of steam, because by all accounts Simon had something like season 5 planned from the start, apparently. I guess it's possible he just had the newspaper angle in mind, but I think he made the show he ultimately wanted to make. One thing I read that really "allowed" me to like the last season more was the suggestion that it's a deliberate farce, and should be taken as such. That it's extreme because it's taking all the insanity we see to its logical conclusion: taken a driven-to-a-fault guy and put him in a broken system where the money never gets to where it needs to go, and push things far enough, and some of the people will do desperate things. I think it's unrealistic because it's as much a warning as anything else.
Anyway, I can appreciate why it bugs some people. When McNulty first starts the whole thing, I distinctly remember being annoyed with how weird and sudden it seemed. But the execution of the idea 6 or 7 episodes into the season eventually won me over.
Really tempted to watch it again at some point, but I think I'll wait a year or so first.
Tacitus
03-08-11, 10:08 AM
Yeah, I didn't mean 'run out of steam' to suggest that (in my opinion anyway) the clumsy way in which Lester and McNulty operate meant that Simon decided to bring an end to the show. It's pretty clear that season 5 was intended as a swansong and indeed there was probably not much more to be said that wouldn't seem like repetition.
Completely different to, say, season 3 of Deadwood where huge chunks of plot are condensed to try and turn 24 episodes into 12 because Milch felt the HBO hangman's noose tightening.
The Michael/Bunk thing only made itself clear after I paused the DVD and was able to read what was written on the charge sheet. I take no more credit for this insight other than knowing where the frame advance button is on the remote. :D
I'll give The Wire another 12 months (at least) too before dipping in again but know it'll always be a show close to my heart. When it was firing on all cylinders (80% of the time?) it was as close to perfection as television cop shows get.
honeykid
03-08-11, 09:26 PM
Were you guys pleased that season 5 was 2 episodes short or would you have rather had them regardless. Does anyone know why HBO asked for Simon to do the season in 11 episodes rather than 13?
Tacitus
03-09-11, 05:24 AM
I think you probably know my answer - Sadly, I didn't really mind that the Baltimore Ripper had a couple of fewer episodes to trample the show's legacy. ;)
I honestly don't know if the decision was Simon's or HBO's but, as I said earlier, think that they didn't have much more to say. The closing kaleidoscope, however, was as good as always.
All 5 seasons of The Wire is selling for 12.99 per season via iTunes. This might only be for the US.
Had one friend finish the series a few weeks ago and another starting season 4 recently. Both, I think, contributed to my brother finally borrowing it. He's plowing through and is about a third of the way through the second season.
Me and Plainview started The Wire and I think we finished All 5 seasons within a month.
The Prestige
04-30-11, 07:18 AM
I liked season 5 as much as I did the first time. Even more actually. Love the journalism scenes and love Clark Johnson's Gus. Did you guys realise tht Johnson directed a lot of episodes?
The Prestige
06-04-11, 09:28 AM
Just finished reading The Wire: Truth Be Told. OUTSTANDING book and if you're a fan of the series then it's absolutely essential. On paper, you'd simply call it an episode guide. But it's a LOT more than that. Theres a terrific introduction from David Simon, lots of interviews and articles on key cast/crew members and the episode guide themselves is often filled with keen insights and analysing on certain scenes that I may have misinterpreted.
Currently reading The Wire: Urban Decay and American Television. This one is more essay based and so far so great.
Anybody read any of those books yet?
You ever have that thing happen where you've seen an entire show, but you think about it and you know right away whether or not enough time has passed to make you want to see it again? I get that a lot, where I'll scan my shelves and be able to almost instantly think yes or no.
Well, it's been less than a year, but I realized last night that I'm probably getting somewhat close to wanting to watch The Wire again. I'm sure it rewards repeat viewings, and it'd be interesting to watch it knowing how things end, and already understanding the organizational structures and all that.
Not going to just yet, but now that I've caught up on so many of those shows I'd planned to catch up on (Breaking Bad being the last, for now), I think there's a good chance that once a lot of shows go on hiatus sometime next year, I'll dive back in and do it all again. It's really something that, just eight months after finishing it, I don't immediately think "nah" when I consider watching it again, the way I do with so many other shows (even the great ones).
Pyro Tramp
09-26-11, 02:59 PM
I recently got the whole boxset second hand with plans to rewatch after caught up on other shows. So yeah, I have had that thing happen. More often happens with 24 though.
Tacitus
09-26-11, 05:09 PM
I've got far too much in my 'to watch' pile (including enough TV shows to keep me going until Christmas at least) to give anything the serious consideration of a quick repeat right now.
I was slightly different to you, Chris, because the first time I watched The Wire it was when they were still filming it so I couldn't just sit down and watch the whole thing back to back. I did rewatch at least the previous season just before the new one came out, though. ;)
Brodinski
10-27-11, 06:23 AM
I'm rewatching it again and I was laughing uncontrollably for about 2-3 minutes after Clay Davis was charged with money laundering, went to Royce's office and said:
"Money laundering! They come talk to me about money laundering? IN WEST-BALTIMORE?! SHEEEEEEIIIIT"
His intonation and changes in volume combined with his gestures and facial expression just turn that sentence into a thing of comical beauty. I can't remember the last time I laughed that hard when watching an actual comedy series.
Pyro Tramp
10-27-11, 07:41 AM
Your 'shheeeeeeit' youtube post on another thread has got me in the mood to start through them all again.
The Prestige
10-27-11, 08:55 AM
His intonation and changes in volume combined with his gestures and facial expression just turn that sentence into a thing of comical beauty. I can't remember the last time I laughed that hard when watching an actual comedy series.
I've been saying for ages how The Wire is probably one of the funniest shows I have ever seen as well as being one of the most dramatic. Clay Davis did have some great comedic moments. That said, I think he is arguably the most comical character in the show. Or is it Brother Mouzone?
Anyways, i'm going to take the plunge and watch Breaking Bad next week since a lot of people like to compare it to The Wire.
I'd say Brother Mouzone is the most ridiculous/larger-than-life/outsized character, though not nearly the funniest. But then again, one of the great things about The Wire is that the characters say funny things sometimes even though they're not "funny characters." I don't think Stringer Bell is inherently funny, but he says some of the funniest things in the entire series.
Pyro Tramp
10-27-11, 05:42 PM
Someone compared Breaking Bad as a white version of the The Wire. Not the best comparison but yeah, i've seen the two together.
I always thought Marlowe's final scenes trying to go legit were pretty funny.
I bought the series as a blind buy (on Sale) a few months ago :yup: ended up watching the whole lot one night after the other :eek: Quite enjoyed it :yup:
TylerDurden99
11-27-11, 03:49 AM
Wow. The first season of The Wire is amazing television, maybe some of, if not, the best t.v I've ever seen. The characters are remarkably acted and written, each episode was attention grabbing and maintained my attention for hours on end, and some scenes in later episodes of the season were very dramatic. Again, a terrific opening season.
But I watched the first two episodes of season 2, and they didn't grab my attention as much. I became less interested as they went along. I'll stick with it, though, as I have been told it picks up in the later episodes.
It does. And the jump from season 1 to season 2 is probably the most jarring of the series. It's worth powering through, believe me.
Congrats on taking the plunge! You'll never watch another TV show the same way again.
Godoggo
11-27-11, 03:39 PM
I loved season 2. It took me about halfway through season 1 to start getting what all the fuss was about then I was hooked. I thought season 2 started strong and stayed strong but I do agree with Yoda that the jump is jarring.
Brodinski
05-15-12, 08:57 AM
'I'm Proposition Joe. **** with me, I'll kill your whole family.'
The best of the Bunk:
Bunk: You seem awfully happy today
Random detective: I got laid last night.
Bunk: Oh yeah? Your ******* still hurt?
Bunk: What is it, huh? The Bunk's cologne? *sniffs his own vest* Ooh, pussy.
The Prestige
05-17-12, 05:24 AM
Prop Joe:
"For a coldass group of gangsters, y'all carried it like Republicans and s__t" :D
Brodinski
03-07-13, 03:52 PM
Had no idea till now, but Robert Chew (Proposition Joe) is no more. He died from a heart attack.
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTI4NzAzMDE4M15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwMzA0ODc4._V1._SX477_SY325_.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KikDsDGpLfw
Heads-up: I'm probably rewatching the entire series soon. I've wanted to do so for awhile, and HBO's recent remastering of the entire series in HD seems like a good a reason as any.
I've DVR's a good hunk of them (they played them all in a giant marathon), but I'll have to figure out how to grab the first season and a half, and then I'll probably be off to the races.
Anyone else thinking of giving it another go? I started this thread watching it the first time, and encouraging others to watch again along with me. This'll be my first time rewatching it, though.
When do they start airing again? I might need to pick up HBO for a bit. I could catch up on GOT as well.
They already did, or at least, they aired them all in one continuous marathon on one of their secondary channels (HBO Signature, I think it was). I assume they'll start airing them somewhere again, but I'm not sure where.
It's not on On Demand (for us FiOS folks, at least), though it is on HBO Go, but my Blu-ray doesn't have an app to connect to that. Was thinking about getting a new one, anyway, so maybe now's as good a time as any.
I will definitely join you if I pick up HBO again. I have been wanting to re-watch it as well. Let us know when you start.
Tacitus
01-01-15, 06:21 AM
I've got my boxset sitting on the shelf whenever you're ready, Chris. ;)
christine
01-01-15, 07:40 AM
There's all 5 seasons on Sky box set available till 29th Jan. I can pick them up elsewhere tho. I wouldn't mind watching them again :)
earlsmoviepicks
01-22-15, 08:33 AM
Just binged the entire series for the first time over the past 3 weeks. I was finally ready for it. WOW, it's now peaking with Deadwood as my all-time favorite series. I feel kind of empty today, as the finale was last night....
How my hair look Mike? ;);)
Wife and I are charging through this, just under a season a week. It's easy to forget that, while the big picture can be kinda bleak, episode to episode it's highly entertaining. I'm enjoying the rewatch more than I'd expected to.
gandalf26
01-22-15, 09:22 AM
Just binged the entire series for the first time over the past 3 weeks. I was finally ready for it. WOW, it's now peaking with Deadwood as my all-time favorite series. I feel kind of empty today, as the finale was last night....
How my hair look Mike? ;);)
Same here, after the TV 100 countdown I bought it and finished a few days ago. Took me about 3 weeks too haha :).
It's a great TV series no doubt, but I think The Shield is better.
Lisa and I started this thing again, and are now pretty well sucked into it. :)
It's good! I think if we had perhaps watched another 2-3 episodes a few years ago when we first tried to watch this, we would have kept going. This time, we gave it more of a chance, and it really picked up after 5-6 episodes. I will chat a bit more about it when we get a bit further along.
Tacitus
01-22-15, 10:25 AM
WOW, it's now peaking with Deadwood as my all-time favorite series.
It's just not quite as good though, right? Right? :D
Gabrielle947
01-22-15, 05:18 PM
I recently watched Wire for the first time and I thought it was amazing. My favorite season without a doubt is season 3 followed by season 1.2nd was okay but I didn't like the one with the kids. Still, season 1 and 3 beats any tv show anytime :D
I watched 4 episodes and got bored moved on to game of thrones instead, it was way more satisfying.
Now that it's remastered and I've finished GOT.. maybe I could give it another shot.
Although some of the things they said about the city made me laugh, can't imagine anyone living in Baltimore actually talking about the city the way some of these characters do. I've been in the baltimore area now for 19 years.
Well, we're almost done. We started this back up around 4 weeks ago and we're eight episodes from the end.
It's been really enjoyable to go through again, four years later. Obviously, it's a good show on every level, so even the first time through when it's fairly overwhelming in its density, it's still enjoyable episode to episode. But it seems even moreso now, already having an idea of what happens and knowing who everyone is. That's freed me up to enjoy the way it unfolds and appreciate the comedic and character beats a lot more.
I can't tell if I'd forgotten how entertaining it is (and just remembered the sloggy, big picture, Serious Show stuff as being more overwhelming than it was), or if it's more entertaining because I've already got all the characters in the right place in my head. Either way, I've gotten more raw enjoyment out of watching it again than I'd expected.
earlsmoviepicks
02-02-15, 03:18 PM
It's just not quite as good though, right? Right? :D
I'm laughing T-- I think Deadwood outshines it by a C---t Hair. :D:D:D
Tacitus
02-02-15, 03:30 PM
Understandable. Deadwood is the greatest TV show ever made, after all. ;)
Chris - Did you watch the new remastered version?
Chris - Did you watch the new remastered version?
Yup, that's what convinced me to. I heard it was coming out and thought about it and realized I'd forgotten enough of the details along the way that I'd probably be able to get really into it again.
Lisa and I started this thing again, and are now pretty well sucked into it. :)
It's good! I think if we had perhaps watched another 2-3 episodes a few years ago when we first tried to watch this, we would have kept going. This time, we gave it more of a chance, and it really picked up after 5-6 episodes. I will chat a bit more about it when we get a bit further along.
Please do. I'll even resist the urge to go back and quote all the times Harry and I (and others) insisted that you had to watch a few more to get sucked in. ;D
Tacitus
02-02-15, 04:31 PM
I'm guessing it's still 4:3? Wire in widescreen (Wirescreen?) might deserve a purchase. ;)
Nope, it's widescreen, too. This was semi-controversial, because it's a departure from the show's visual template, but David Simon was involved in the process (and wrote about it on his site (http://davidsimon.com/the-wire-hd-with-videos/)) and tried to keep it true to the intent of the original format.
Tacitus
02-02-15, 04:47 PM
That's one hell of an undertaking. On one hand it's admirable that HBO is curating one of its shining stars but on the other, I loved the vérité look of the 4:3 'TV' aspect ratio.
Hmmmm, Amazon Prime is streaming it over here. It's probably worth a month's subscription just for that show. ;)
EDIT - Nope, it's not part of the Streaming sub, it's on something called Shop Instant Video.
£25 per season. No thanks. ;)
Yup, that's what convinced me to. I heard it was coming out and thought about it and realized I'd forgotten enough of the details along the way that I'd probably be able to get really into it again.
Please do. I'll even resist the urge to go back and quote all the times Harry and I (and others) insisted that you had to watch a few more to get sucked in. ;D
Season one was pretty well done, and the last few episodes especially were fantastic. That said, it just wasn't on a level with stuff like The Sopranos or Breaking Bad. Now I must ask - is season 2 able to pick itself up off the floor after trashing all the momentum of the first season, blowing off half the characters, and introducing the ridiculously cliche Greek mob faction? I presume I need to stick it out and watch all of season 2 to move on to the (I hope) better third season?I was thinking of skipping the rest of season 2...
Maybe it seemed fresh at the time, but season 2 seems like a low-rent Scorsese ripoff so far, especially characters like Zigg, which are clearly boilerplate plug-ins to hang cliched events on to keep the viewer busy. The stark realism of season one, which was extremely convincing, btw, has been replaced by cliche mob stuff that feels contrived and calculated in comparison.
More Stringer Bell, less "The Greek", please!
Tacitus
02-04-15, 06:01 PM
Personally, I thought 2 was better than 3 (and obviously better than 5) but I know I'm in a minority. It was a brave move to switch things up so much from the first season and, much as it may pain you, I dug the docks. ;)
If you're really hating things then you'll not be missing anything major in terms of overarching narrative by skipping the rest of two but I'd say stick it out as there are little beats from 2 throughout the rest of the show (as there are with all the seasons). Nothing earth shattering, as I said, but a few moments to make you nod your head in appreciation.
After getting waylaid by wooden FBI agents chasing nonsense conspiracy theories about UFOs I've only just started re-watching season 1 this week.
I'm about half way through.
Of course, after I said all that yesterday, the next episode is stellar. Just a few left in season 2, so we will stick it out and continue on!
Which episode was it?
But yeah, as Tacitus alluded to, it's widely regarded as the weakest season. The transition is jarring and it takes awhile to see what a lot of the characters we know are even up to. But it's definitely telling another nuanced story (even Ziggy's ridiculousness, which I despised at the time, has a point and a payoff). And it's a huge down payment on the rest of the series, because it signals to us that this isn't just going to be about our lovable rogues at the Major Crimes Unit: it's about the entire city, the entire ecosystem that all these bacteria thrive in.
That said, if you're one of the ones who is/was kinda "meh" on it, don't worry: the next/last three seasons are more in step with the first.
Tacitus
02-05-15, 10:10 AM
I'm sorry, but however weak people feel S2 is they can't say it's worse than 5. :p
Talking of 'The Greeks', it was fun seeing Paul Ben-Victor turn up in True Detective. He couldn't hope to compete with the Harrelson/McConaughey gurning competition but, boy, he gave it a try. ;D
They are working in more time for characters I like (Stringer, Avon etc.) and now that I have given the dock dudes a bit of time to sink in, I was a bit more interested in what was happening at the docks last night.
The episode last night was called "It don't matter that some fool say he different..." - D'Angelo
About halfway through D's speech at the library, I knew he was a goner. many shows will attempt to humanize a character a bit more before knocking them off, and the content of the speech, along with some editing queues hit me with enough foreshadowing that I called the end of the episode out. In a show like this, I presume many of the characters are on a doomed trajectory, but I was still sad to see D go, as he has become a bit of a favorite. The show uses some film noir concepts, like The city as labyrinth allegory and the doomed hero etc., so I have a feeling a lot of these people don't end up in good shape.
You're definitely jiving on the show's wavelength now, then. Yeah, it's not all doom and gloom, but the show will make you care about a lot of things only to throw your hope back in your face. A lot. Not always--that would become rote and predictable--but a lot.
Anyway, yeah, that was "All Prologue," widely hailed as the best episode of the season and probably one of the best in the series. The season ends pretty strong down the stretch, too.
I'm sorry, but however weak people feel S2 is they can't say it's worse than 5. :p
Hehehe. I say it! Well, mostly.
I literally just finished the whole series last night, and I like 5 a lot more than I did the first time. I won't say more, since Sedai's still rolling, but...
...a review I read likened it to Dr. Strangelove, which seems spot on to me. I can totally dig on why someone might still not like it, but that makes it easier for me to embrace it as farce rather than try to fit it completely into the show's normal continuity. An insane system driving people within it to do insane things.
Also, putting aside the decision itself, it's really well-executed. It weaves into and out of the entire city and system and the implications it has at the end are pretty great, and it's probably the best example of the show's this-leads-to-this-leads-to-this-leads-to-THAT (THAT being some incredible, unforeseeable outcome) manner of storytelling. The absurdity of the decision may be jarring, but once you get past that everything they do with it is pretty fantastic.
Tacitus
02-05-15, 11:55 AM
I still say that 5 is the weakest Wire season by a significant margin but it's still great TV akin to, say, the best of The Shield. Even the absurdity of it isn't my only complaint. I guess I'd finally got sick of McNulty...
I'll be watching it again in the coming weeks (my third full run through, I think) and maybe I'll have thawed a little. Will give a more complete idea of what I didn't like and if I was wrong I'll fully admit it. I'll throw in a few jokes to take the heat off, however. You know me. ;)
After I posted about Paul Ben-Victor's appearance in True Detective I remembered another cameo by an alumnus of HBO's (second :p) greatest show in it's latest cop drama. Clarke Peters and his magnificent bandy legs appear as a preacher for just one scene.
Like William Peterson before him, would old Clarke have had more of a career if he could keep his knees together? :D
linespalsy
02-05-15, 12:45 PM
I didn't have a problem getting into 2, and think I'm with Tacitus on 5 being the weakest (but still quite good, and large chunks of it are great). I don't know what my favorite season is, probably either 1 or 4. The only part of the show I didn't enjoy a lot was the Carcetti stuff, in spite of acknowledging City hall and electoral politics should have a legitimate place in the show. That stuff just made me feel dirty ;). Should re-watch the series at some point, but have to finish Treme first.
Aquatic Soul
02-06-15, 12:02 AM
Me and hubby watched all five seasons in about three months. We both enjoyed it very much. I thought all five seasons were extremely good and well done. I liked the raw, gritty, and realistic view it explored. I also liked how each season centered on different parts of the city. I can't say I thought there was a bad season. Recommend this series to anyone.
My favorite characters were McNulty (so fine), Daniels, and Kima.
Aquatic Soul
02-06-15, 03:43 AM
Oh I forgot to add Omar to my list of favorite Wire characters. How could I forget Omar!
Chardee MacDennis
02-09-15, 01:41 AM
The Wire is perfect. The only bad thing about it is you'll compare every other TV show with it and there's nothing that stacks up.
Looking forward to the rewatch when it gets released on blu ray.
I only got through 3 episodes the first time.
Tried S1E4 today and stopped paying attention about 40 minutes into it. ugh.
when is this show supposed to get good ?
and i keep hearing S2 is disappointing, doesn't exactly make me want to keep watching
Aquatic Soul
02-11-15, 03:15 AM
I liked season two a lot. One of my favorite seasons. To each their own I guess.
I finished House of Cards few days ago so I want to watch something new, and I never saw The Wire before. I enjoy tv series like GoT, Breaking Bad,House of Cards, something with intelligent characters(action not needed) and dramatic story. So should I check it out? Also,dose The Wire has a story we can follow or is it every episode for itself (like CSI for example).
The Wire is definitely not episodic like that. It's as serialized as a show can possibly get.
I dunno if you're like it or not, but everyone should at least try it. And it's very important that you a) watch 2-3 at a time and b) watch at least the first 5-6 episodes before making up your mind. It's going to see really dry and confusing at first, but once you get a handle on what's going on, it's brilliant.
The Wire is definitely not episodic like that. It's as serialized as a show can possibly get.
I dunno if you're like it or not, but everyone should at least try it. And it's very important that you a) watch 2-3 at a time and b) watch at least the first 5-6 episodes before making up your mind. It's going to see really dry and confusing at first, but once you get a handle on what's going on, it's brilliant.
Will give it a try.
Wow!! Season 3, WOW!
Just finished that up last night, and then started S4, as well.
In the second to last season 3 episode, Omar and Bow Tie cornered Stringer, and I looked over at Lisa and said "I think we know how this show works now, right? This guy is NOT getting out of this."
BANG
Great stuff, even if one of my favorite characters got sixed.
Tacitus
02-20-15, 04:43 PM
I'm almost done with Season 2, will probably finish it tonight.
Still stand by my assertions that it's better than 3 and 5 but, man, it's hard to sit through some of Ziggy's scenes. I can see what they were trying to do with his character (a loser in the shadow of his father, himself not the most three dimensional of characters) but there's no empathy there and his (re)actions are far too frequently cartoonish.
On the other hand we see Stringer come into his own, CEO-ing it like a mother****er. As Prop Joe would no doubt say. ;)
McNulty's also not too annoying...
EDIT - Seds, you're in for a treat with season 4. Apart from season 2 of Deadwood it's probably the best 3 months of television ever made.
Tacitus
02-23-15, 08:41 AM
Being talented, charismatic and handsome just isn't enough for some former Wire stars. Big Idris Elba is also tearing up the tarmac a stone's throw from Tatty Cottage in preparation for his competitive rally debut...
Story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-31558833)
I've probably met him on the road but, to be brutally honest, he's not be able to keep up with me on those back tracks. The Tattymobile is a Sport+ after all. :p
This show didn't start getting good for me until episode 7 or 8 of season 1.
Finished season 2 now.. it was okay. zig was definitely one of the most ridiculous characters I've ever seen on screen.
I'd rather watch house of cards than season 3 of the wire.. but i am making a short crime thriller in baltimore so I feel some kind of responsibility to at least finish this show.
Season 4 is excellent so far! Tatty was spot on about this season...
Tacitus
03-05-15, 12:11 PM
I'm about to start season 4. Much like the last time I watched it, I breezed through season 3 pretty quickly without an awful lot to say on it.
I think it's probably because S4 is coming up. ;)
Yeah, season 4 is probably the most impressive. But impressive in the same way The Wire is the "best" TV show; I don't think the show (or that season) are the most entertaining, but they're the best-crafted, the most coherent, and narratively the more satisfying (though not in the sense of being happy). Just as I actually enjoyed watching Breaking Bad more than I enjoyed watching The Wire (even though the latter might be a more impressive achievement), I enjoyed watching season 3 more than I enjoyed watching season 4, even though my brain is telling me season 4 is a better piece of work.
Tacitus
03-05-15, 12:23 PM
I just can't remember much about the actual case in season 3, and I watched it for the third or fourth time last week. It's got some great moments (mostly involving Stringer) but I think the whole Hamsterdam sub plot (which went on at least a couple of episodes too long, for me) overshadows them.
I think I enjoyed it most because it was the funniest season. It had all the Robert's Rules of Order stuff, for example.
Tacitus
03-05-15, 12:30 PM
Was S3 the one which started off with Herc and Carver driving around to the theme from Shaft? That was either 2 or 3 and always has me shaking my head a bit.
But yeah, The Wire's got quite a bit of wry humo(u)r.
That was 3, yeah. From what I can tell everyone thinks that was either one or the best or worst scenes in the series. :D But it also had the whole Royce 911/towers reform/VD mash-up I love so much.
The thing with 4 is how much each plot turn flies in the face of convention, but not in such a way that it seems contrived, or doesn't follow. It's almost as if they took painstaking measures to avoid any sort of writing traps or cliches, and pulled it off almost perfectly.
Yeah, it turns a lot. But the most impressive thing about it, to me, is the ripple effects. It won't spoil anything to say that not all those kids end up with the happiest of endings, and when you see where it all shakes out, you can actually sit down and trace the end result back to literally a dozen different fulcrums that had to swing in one direction rather than another to lead to that moment. Little choices in the beginning of the season start chain reactions that shape the course of characters' entire lives by the end.
Tacitus
03-12-15, 09:21 AM
I started cracking on with Season 4 just as my import Deadwood boxset dropped on my mat. I'm staying strong but it's not much of a hassle where season 4's concerned. Season 5, on the other hand...
Loving Chris and Snoop in particular. Chris is one of the coldest, most matter-of-fact killers I've seen on television and Snoop? Raw charisma. ;)
Snoop cracks me up to no end. You said it - pure charisma. But you know, in a way that makes me want to scream and run away if I ever ran into her out on the street. ;) Just about done with season 4!
Tacitus
03-12-15, 09:40 AM
I'm listening to the commentaries as I go and just finished with S4 ep 1's - Apparently Snoop was quite a handful for her script supervisor. A great girl but not a trained actor and season 4 was when she was first required to learn lines. ;)
Curious as to how she got cast if she wasn't a trained actor. Any interviews or materials like that i can check out? I don;t have the DVDs - I am watching the series on HBO OnDemand.
Tacitus
03-12-15, 09:52 AM
She's a local rapper, I think. Might find out more once I listen to the rest of season 4's extras.
Extras are the reason I had to go to Amazon US for my Deadwood box set. I've got region 2 Wire and Sopranos boxes (so it's not a blanket HBO edict on foreign releases) and they've got the full compliment but the R2 Deadwood box (which I also own, but not for much longer now) is vanilla. Had the R1 season 1 discs and they had some of the best commentaries I'd heard.
Dunno why the show's fans got treated so poorly outside The States.
Season 4 was just stellar. Sad to see it go, especially since I know the show wraps up soon, and with a season that is allegedly not anywhere near as good. On to season 5, we go!
Season 4 was just stellar. Sad to see it go, especially since I know the show wraps up soon, and with a season that is allegedly not anywhere near as good. On to season 5, we go!
Interesting. Season 4 is the ONLY season I thought was good.
Although the finale was kinda blah..
They made it an extra 30 minutes longer than usual.. so we could spend 10 minutes with dookie walking around aimlessly in plot that goes absolutely nowhere. WTH nothing even happened with him after all that walking.
The rest weren't bad, just.. okay.
After 3 I was ready to give up completely on the series but the GF pushed me to start #4. Good thing. I have one episode left now.. finale of season 5.
Tacitus
03-31-15, 05:25 AM
Finished up with season 5 a few weeks ago now. I'll wait til Seds has finished before really going to town on it though. ;)
The most praise I can summon is that it's like a decent season of The Shield before The Shield went wrong...
Finally watched the last episode. Great finale, it was probably the best episode of the whole series.
Seemed like maybe they saved a little too much for that episode though. Either way it ended strong which is a great thing.
I'm going to go visit some of the locations like bodie's corner and the train tracks where mcnulty always drank.
I'll be sure to take a couple pictures.
I visited bodies' corner today. And those train tracks that they're always drinking on.
Interesting places.
I actually felt like bodies' corner was not a safe place to be.
google street view doesn't do the neighborhood justice.
Does this make anyone else thirsty for a beer?
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/MichaelLayth/Photography/wire-tracks.jpg
Two of those buildings you see on the right do not have roofs.
That exoskeleton looking building has a big metal crane hook that can slide back and forth along the top of the tracks. Overgrown in the grass underneath of it are some old train tracks.
Finished!
What a great show. Super unique in its structure, as it drifts around from place to place, character to character, slowly peeling back the onion layers of corruption in a big city. When I began season 2, it took me a bit to get into the way the show had so vastly deviated from its previous season. At the time, i felt like season 2 was a bit weak, but now that I have seen the entire thing, and how it all fits together so elegantly, season 2 is just fine. I still think Zig was a bad character, but that's a minor quibble.
I know Tac had mentioned a drop in quality in season 5, but I guess I don't see it. The thing is, season 4 is probably one of the best seasons of TV ever made, so anything was going to seem like a bit of a drop after that. Season 5 did have a few contrivances that didn't seem as natural or realistic, but I think that was perhaps necessary to tie everything up the way they did. The show defied convention (at the time) like no other show.
One example:
There is this big multi-season build up with Omar and Marlow, with Chris and Snoop trying to track him down and Omar trying to get an angle on Marlow to take him out. It builds and builds and you just know a big confrontation is about to pop off. Omar has Marlow's crew shaking in their shoes, running to hide from their corners. Then Omar goes to buy a pack of smokes and some random 10-year old that tortures cats just up and takes him out. Just like that, the character is gone. No hoopla, no big movie style shootout.
Favorite characters
Omar: Omar comin!
Snoop: Memorable, odd, funny, and cold as ice.
Presbo: One of the only people in the show that avoided some sort of corruption.
Tacitus
12-31-15, 03:06 PM
I got the blu ray boxset for Christmas. :up:
It's too soon for a rewatch but I played a bit of it today just to marvel at how they turned this deliberately 4:3 (and 480i) TV show into a seamless 16:9 HD-ified opus.
As Eric Morecambe would say, "You can't see the join." ;)
Nice. I think I probably got a taste of that when the wife and I rewatched it this year, where HBO rebroadcast them in HD. And yeah, it was genuinely impressive. I wouldn't have guessed it'd been retro-fitted (or whatever it's called) with the original film and stuff.
Think i'm going to rewatch it soon, i will use this thread instead of starting a new one if that's cool? Doubt i'll say much anyway.
The Wire is tied with Mad Men and South Park as my second favourite show after The Sopranos.
Has anyone tried Treme? Another David Simon show, looks pretty good but i imagine it works alot more for people personally familiar with New Orleans Culture.
Tacitus
01-01-16, 11:32 AM
Treme's been on my Amazon wishlist for a while but I've not gotten around to it yet.
Re: My post from yesterday - Damn you, The Wire! Damn you!
I'm now half way through season one again while my pile of unwatched discs gathers dust. ;D
How do you have the seasons Tacitus? I go 4>3>1>2>5. Five is the only one i have genuine problems with, i imagine if i watched the show when it was airing i would like two less since it just abruptly turns from Avon and Stringer to The Greek and friends, i love that Season though and think it is just the weakest of four amazing seasons.
Tacitus
01-01-16, 11:57 AM
4, 2, 1, 3 and then a gap to 5.
I loved 2 precisely because it shifted focus when the easy thing to do was keep going on with characters who had hooked people in initially. 5 was the season I had problems with, as I've talked about on here in the past - By that point I'd become a bit tired with McNulty and his story arc in 5 was something I'd have expected in The Shield, but not The Wire.
I like The Shield a lot, by the way, but it's more of a traditional TV cop show and The Wire was so much more than that. ;)
4, 2, 1, 3 and then a gap to 5.
I loved 2 precisely because it shifted focus when the easy thing to do was keep going on with characters who had hooked people in initially. 5 was the season I had problems with, as I've talked about on here in the past - By that point I'd become a bit tired with McNulty and his story arc in 5 was something I'd have expected in The Shield, but not The Wire.
I like The Shield a lot, by the way, but it's more of a traditional TV cop show and The Wire was so much more than that. ;)
The Shield is one of my favourite shows as well but i agree with you there. My main problems were the McNulty story and everything to do with Marlo in that season. I think the best episode in 5 is the last episode, it is actually my favourite finale the only ending i disliked was Marlos, it seemed to confirm the rep he had on the street as this superhuman, i liked it better with Stringer, Avon, Joe, etc, that we seen their downfall, Marlo just cashed out then returned to the street to attack a random corner guy, that scene and his cashing out scene felt really awkward in The Wire imo, something you'd see in The Shield is a good way to put it.
I just finished watching this series for the first time, and am bumping this thread in hopes of having the entire forum watch along on the second viewing. :) I can accept half the forum if necessary. :D
I was shocked how after hearing "greatest tv series ever" that it had an impact on me now. Even prepared, I was unprepared.
https://theironicman.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/015.jpg
Have you seen HBO's The Wire?
Yeah, i'm watching it. I'll post in this thread once i've watched more eps.
This isnt The Wire, but its applicable since its about some of the same things, and written by Burns & Simon - The Corner. A 6 episode mini-series released first. Noticing alot of actors from The Wire in this too. On ep 3 now
Yeah, by all accounts The Corner was basically the warm-up for The Wire.
Yeah, by all accounts The Corner was basically the warm-up for The Wire.
Im stunned that The Wire had to fight to stay on the air. Reminds me of other incredible series that had to scrape to survive, Friday Night Lights, and Deadwood. They said they were gonna make 1 or 2 Deadwood movies, but nothings getting done with it still.
I dont know if it was Charles S Duttons decision to do the rapid time jumps to the past during a scene then come right back, but its genius. In episode 3 and the mothers gonna go into rehab, what a bleakness. I remember watching an actual documentary of black tar heroin on HBO once, and they followed 3-4 hardcore junkies around for one year. Truly horrifying, worse than what Ive seen so far on The Corner even.
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