Thoughts and queries about thoughts

[Sir Toose]

Do you know the philosopher Descartes? Well, you're familiar with his thinking if you saw The Matrix. He coined that phrase "I think, therefore I am." What do you think about that statement?

There are basically two schools of thought, right? One that says that we can think because we have a soul. We are interconnected to a higher power through our soul so we don't even need a body to think. Our soul will be able to think when the body is dead. If you believe this you lean toward idealism. The other train of thought simply says that you can think because you have a high powered brain. All thought is generated by the body's interaction with it's surroundings. If this makes sense to you then you are more closely aligned with the materialists.

So, how about it? Do you need your body to think or not? What about the soul being reborn? When I'm dead and in an unincorporated state am I going to be thinking "damn I wish I had a margarita, if I only had a mouth." When the body dies is that it? Worm food?

I can sense a God argument coming on... let's try to avoid rehashing what's already been stated and look at this with a fresh approach.

[spudracer]

I think whatever subject you talk about that deals with the body always leads back to God. The funny thing about that is that the people that don't believe in God are usually the ones that bring it up.

Do we need our body to think?

Hmmm, when you stop and think about it, your body isn't doing the thinking, your brain is. Now without getting too creepy here I would say it's possible, because there are those that have near death experiences and claim they go through the whole "white light" thing. If you are able to remember this without being with your body then I would say, YES, you can think without your body.

[Yoda]

I hate to say these two words yet again, but I can't avoid it: Lewis says that, if we believe in souls, and we all have them, there's no reason why, if not for our physical form, we should ever meet another soul at all. The world and our bodies are just a crude way of allowing us to interact.

Yes, I need my body to think. I think that, right now, my body and soul are sort of the same thing...if someone smashes me in the head with a crowbar, my thinking could very well change on many issues...if my thoughts really came from my soul, would that happen? Maybe...I'm not sure how it works...but that's my opinion on the matter. I think that, right now, on earth, body and soul are connected closely...but that the soul is still IT. The soul, IMO, is really, basically, the ability to reason and make choices, above anything else.

Materialists and naturalists I cannot understand. All thought is internal really, so for all you know, your brain's putting on a show for you, so that all you think is for reasons you can't fathom. "I think, therefore I am." has never rung 100% true to me. It's a great quote, and it's perfectly reasonable to believe, but all it's saying is that there's something there. It doesn't tell you much, as far as I can see. For all you know that thinking is just being fed right into you.

[Sullivan]

Rather than asking if we need a body to think, why not ask if thinking is the most important thing we can do?

[spudracer]

I think it's the number one thing we SHOULD do. There are some people out there that have yet to grasp the whole concept of thinking. Just watch Jerry Springer.

[patti]

a good topic.....and i'll come back to it, but just wanted to mention a little funneee i heard ; a newspaper columnist i read always takes a famous saying and lets the readers finish the second half of it.....then submit them to the paper and they publish the best replies........
she wrote "i think, therefore________".
the funniest answer was; "i think, therefore i don't thwim in water i can't thtand in." :laugh:

[Sir Toose]

Originally posted by Sullivan
Rather than asking if we need a body to think, why not ask if thinking is the most important thing we can do?

I was asking something a bit deeper than that you cynical SOB ;D

I like your take. I'm not sure what to make of it. My gut response is that love is more important than thought... have to think on that... thanks Sully

[firegod]

You need your brain to think. It's not too complicated. You cut out a big chunk of your brain, and you won't be able to think as well. If the whole question is about some kind of afterlife, then we are talking about religion here, and probably gods or a god.

[Sir Toose]

Originally posted by firegod
You need your brain to think. It's not too complicated. You cut out a big chunk of your brain, and you won't be able to think as well. If the whole question is about some kind of afterlife, then we are talking about religion here, and probably gods or a god.

I know. I was trying to distill what I was getting at and realized it would turn into a god conversation. Maybe... just a different way of looking at things?

What about the Matrix and the alternate reality presented there? Possible?

[firegod]

Possible? For me, the odds on something like that would be astronomical, like a quadrillion to one or something.

[Yoda]

Loving and thinking are not different things at all. If you're breathing, you're thinking. Everything you do involves thinking. Without your brain, love as we know it is not possible. So I can't really say that love is more important than thought...love is only in competition with other emotions, not with the thing that makes them all possible, really. Unless you're referring not to just thought, but to sentient thought...logical thought. The ability to reason things and identy yourself AS a self. Things like that.

I would even hesitate to declare love, or any emotion, as THE emotion. I just don't think of it that way...they all have a place. Love is found in other emotions, and many other emotions are found in love. Emotion is a rainbow, and if you take one color out of it, the entire thing is diminished in some way. You can't really single them out...though we try to as best we can...but there's overlap. Love involves many other emotions; kindness, selflessness, and even anger and jealousy at times. It's all connected in more ways than I think we can reasonably count, IMO.

Anyway, Sully's right in that actions matter more than thoughts or impulses. They're the one thing we almost always have real control over.

Is The Matrix possible? Hell, I dunno. :D I'd say, technially, yeah, the brain can be fooled...but to that degree? I have no clue. I'd like to think that some would indeed figure it out after awhile.

[Sir Toose]

But do you think the brain is organic grey matter only or is it tied to the soul and thusly capable of thought? Or does it think simply because it's a brain?

[Yoda]

I think the soul and body (and therefore, the brain) are VERY intertwined for all of us right now. I mean, obviously our soul has something to do with our emotions and thoughts...it must. Otherwise, what IS it really? I don't see it as being some item that we're not using at all day to day. So, if it is something we sort of think with, then it must be really interlocked, because, obviously, our emotions and worldview can be changed through physically actions...poking at our brain, etc.

So, I'd say our body and soul are nearly the same thing right now, but the soul is given a new body at death. A body it can 100% latch onto, unlike the one we have now. Of course, this could all be completely wrong. :)

[sadesdrk]

I was watching the documentry about the brain, on the Discovery channel awhile back..and I started tripping myself out on the notion that my brain was digesting information about it's self...They showed like a diagram of the brain and I was picturing mybrain sayin," Whoa! That's me." or something...sounds really lame now that I said this outloud...NEVERMIND! (stupid brain)

[firegod]

I have a quotation sig about the brain that I think is pretty cool. Here it is.

[Sir Toose]

Originally posted by firegod
I have a quotation sig about the brain that I think is pretty cool. Here it is.

:laugh: Right on!

[sadesdrk]

:confused: :dizzy:

[patti]

i was listening to a public radio program .....a discussion about current areas of focus in philosophy...... and human consciousness is one of the huge questions....how does the brain do it? how does the brain create our awareness that we exist, take up space, etc.?!

........ this folded up pile of spongy, gelatinous mush........does it all.
how fascinating....and so much yet to learn.

firegod, great sig./comment.

:cool:

[Sullivan]

Maybe the brain itself isn't responsible for creating what we call our "consciousness".

[firegod]

Well, I'm sure that if you have your brain removed, you'll still have a consciousness.... And I have some pixie dust that'll make you fly, too. :)

[B&W]

In South America some time last century, two scientists got two gorillas and surgically both of their heads. They then reattached the heads on the different bodies.

On of th gorillas died straight after the operation. However the other one lived, for about 45 minutes! Crazy Stuff huh? :eek:

[B&W]

Um, it was 'sposed to say;

... and surgically removed both of ...



Yeah, you picked it up anyways... :p

[firegod]

Yup. Pretty crazy, and pretty sick.

[Sullivan]

Originally posted by firegod
Well, I'm sure that if you have your brain removed, you'll still have a consciousness.... And I have some pixie dust that'll make you fly, too. :)

Well, if my brain is removed, am I still me?

And where's that pixie dust!?

[Sir Toose]

Originally posted by Sullivan
Maybe the brain itself isn't responsible for creating what we call our "consciousness".

That's kind of what I was getting at by bringing up the idealists. They say the soul is the consciousness and is capable of moving on without the body.

[Sullivan]

Well, "scientifically", the consciousness is an event created by the brain. That viewpoint is, of course, mechanistic and reductionistic.

Whenever you start talking about consciousness in relation to the soul, though, serious people who consider themselves rational and scientific are going to roll their eyes, because our scientific framework has no place for the idea of a soul. More's the pity.

[Sir Toose]

Sully
Do you think that most people who consider themselves to be rational and scientific are also atheistic?

I wonder what the idealists say about "consciousness" in relation to lesser animals. It occurred to me that they are also allowing for the idea of lesser animals having a soul as they say the soul is consciousness. Lesser animals are definitely conscious. Hmmm... more of that gray area, have to see what I can find.


Serious people often roll their eyes at me... ;) I don't put as much faith in scientific "proof" as perhaps I should.

[Kahiri]

Originally posted by patti
i was listening to a public radio program .....a discussion about current areas of focus in philosophy...... and human consciousness is one of the huge questions....how does the brain do it? how does the brain create our awareness that we exist, take up space, etc.?!

........ this folded up pile of spongy, gelatinous mush........does it all.
how fascinating....and so much yet to learn.

firegod, great sig./comment.

:cool:

Current theory has it that consciousness has something to do with synchronized neurons and 80Hz waves and other things that, while very cool, confuse the hell out of me and I haven't read enough about. =)

And Toose, speaking as a scientifically inclined person, blind faith in "scientific proof" is just as bad as blindly refusing to take any science into consideration at all. =)

Good lord, look at that. Two smiley faces in one post. What is this world coming to?

[Sir Toose]

Originally posted by Kahiri
Current theory has it that consciousness has something to do with synchronized neurons and 80Hz waves and other things that, while very cool, confuse the hell out of me and I haven't read enough about. =)

See, to me, this is insignifigant. I care not for the speed or construction of my consciousness... am simply thankful for it. I'm unconvinced that science will ever explain it and if they did it wouldn't matter to me.
Originally posted by Kahiri
And Toose, speaking as a scientifically inclined person, blind faith in "scientific proof" is just as bad as blindly refusing to take any science into consideration at all. =)

I never said this... tsk tsk, don't sentence me to extemities of belief. I believe that the apple falls to the ground from my hand due to the gravitational effects of the earth spinning. Try to explain my soul to me in scientific lexicon and I will say you babble uncontrollably.


Originally posted by Kahiri
Good lord, look at that. Two smiley faces in one post. What is this world coming to?
Please don't tell me how many facial muscles it takes to smile... I'm happy with it for what it is :)

[Sullivan]

Originally posted by Toose
Sully
Do you think that most people who consider themselves to be rational and scientific are also atheistic?

Maybe, in general. But if so, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.


Serious people often roll their eyes at me... ;) I don't put as much faith in scientific "proof" as perhaps I should.

Well, science is something of a religion, too. Notice how you said you don't put much faith in it. :)

I think I'm picking up a sentiment I can identify with, though. To spend too much time trying to explain or understand conscious may be, in some cases, missing the point......the point being to use and enjoy consciousness in a way that is personally fulfilling. So what if the world is just a dream we're all sleeping? I'll take it anyway.

[Yoda]

Well put! Some people don't think of anything at all ("I dunno, maybe there's a God. I've got a life to worry about, though"), and some people think only of it...but I don't think either is correct. I think you're right, Sully...these things do need to be thought of, but, for whatever reason, we have it, so let's use it as best we can.