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Yoda
05-15-09, 01:28 PM
Well, my stint with jury duty has come and gone. The entire process last several days and was a pretty massive distraction, but so it goes.


The Trial

The case was about an alleged robbery two and a half years ago; a young African-American man was being charged with robbing a bakery at gunpoint. In addition to the robbery, there were two counts of Aggravated Assault (for pointing a gun at police officers later on), and two counts of Reckless Endangerment (for the same). We heard testimony from one of the women working at the bakery, the owner of the bakery, from the two police officers who tried to question the suspect shortly afterwards, and the detective on the case.

The woman working at the bakery provided the most significant testimony, as she was only a few feet away from the suspect for at least a minute or two (by her account, 4 or 5, though some attempt was made to suggest that the crime was much shorter). The police officer (now retired) who attempted to question the suspect later also gave testimony, though he only saw the suspect's face for a few seconds.


Initial Deliberations

The first day of deliberation was fairly chaotic; we all just tossed out random thoughts about whatever we wanted and argued lightly back and forth. It stayed pretty mellow, but it was pretty haphazard, too. We were at around 8-4 in favor of Guilty (though we didn't specify on which counts at first) near the beginning, and seemed to be tilting a bit further that way when the day ended. Of the 3-4 leaning towards Not Guilty, two were actively defending the position (both older men) while the others merely seemed to have doubt, and were largely just listening to what everyone had to say. Those two both said they'd feel better giving it a night's sleep, if nothing else, and obviously nobody begrudged them that, so we all went home.

The next morning, we all returned, and surprisingly a couple of other people had begun to doubt their original vote of Guilty. We talked about things some more and eventually decided to go through things count-by-count. Turns out, we should've done that a lot earlier, as it immediately forced us to confront each specific point of contention. When we went through each charge, we quickly realized that nobody really doubted the Robbery charge. The woman had seen him for at least a minute solid from just a few feet away, and had identified him from a photo array without hesitation just three weeks later.

Moving onto the other counts is where we began to diverge. An awful lot of time was spent taking issue with the way each charge is phrased; for example, at least one juror could not separate the legal definition of Reckless Endangerment from how he, personally, would normally use such a phrase. Ditto for Aggravated Assault, which threw a couple of jurors who felt that it must include actual physical assault (in reality, merely pointing a gun at someone qualifies).

This all led to us asking the tip staff if we could have the legal definition of each count. As it turns out, it's illegal here in Pennsylvania for the judge to give us a written definition, but he could read it to us again. So, we had to fill out a form (of course), the lawyers and defendent had to be rounded up, and we had to march back down to the court room to be read the definitions. Then, we went back up.

Hearing the definitions again helped crystallize the specific points of disagreement, but little else. I was leaning towards Guilty on all counts, but was eventually persuaded that the evidence of Aggravated Assault was just too flimsy, given that the suspect turned very briefly to the police officers, and then turned away almost immediately afterwards. That, and some of the first officer's testimony was a little uncertain. So, we all agreed on Not Guilty for both of those charges.

Throughout the deliberations, we wasted large amounts of time speculating about things we either a) had no evidence about either way, or b) were specifically supposed to ignore or disregard. People had to be reminded again and again to only consider the evidence. One of the holdouts seemed particularly enamored with the idea that the gun might not have been loaded, or even real at all.

It was pointed out that we didn't have the slightest reason to believe either, and the defense did not offer either protest, but hours were spent talking about it. Some even threw out vague notions of the possibility of police corruption (which, I pointed out, would give them an excuse to dismiss every case that had ever come before the court). It was a horrible waste of time, but it proved impossible to supress completely.


Reckless Endangerment

The point that caused the most confrontation was Reckless Endangerment. The definitions were still a bit fuzzy to us, but we were all treating it as if it was, more or less, recklessly creating the possibility of a dangerous situation. The definition included a stipulation that such behavior must be outside the general standard of normal behavior. It's a much lesser charge than Aggravated Assault (a misdemeanor, rather than a felony), so even though we had agreed on dismissing those charges, most of us felt the action of pointing a gun towards an officer -- even if only done instinctually or briefly -- constituted a reckless act.

Things got really sticky here; of the two holdouts, one doubted the proof that the man the police ran into was necessarily the robber. He said that he thought he probably was, but that there wasn't enough proof. He based this on the officer's fuzzy memory of the jacket he was wearing, even though said officer selected the suspect out of a photo array, just like the old woman (quite a coincidence, I and others repeatedly pointed out). Nevertheless, he thought the fuzzy memory of the jacket was apparently enough to outweight the many coincidences on the other side of the scales.

The other holdout (who looked like Willie Nelson) gave no reason. He continually repeated that he would not change his mind no matter what was said to him, and refused to answer questions about how he had come to his conclusion. I and others asked him questions and rephrased them in different ways, but got almost nothing from him. His only rationale was that the first officer had testified that he did not feel threatened (he actually said he "didn't have time" to be afraid), thus the boy's action must not have been threatening. I pointed out that being threatened and being afraid aren't the same thing, and that the crime is not contingent on whether or not the victim is brave or not.

We also pointed out to him that the issues of fear and threat are beside the point when determining whether or not a potentially dangerous situation was created. He merely repeated his conclusion. I explained that he was only giving us his decision, and not his thought process or rationale for it. He stared at the table and floor, refusing to answer or make eye contact.

I asked him why pointing a gun at a cop isn't creating a dangerous situation. No answer. I asked him whether or not people should be allowed to point guns at cops. No answer. I asked the entire room "is there anyone here who doesn't want an answer to the questions I'm asking?" Everyone wanted an answer. He said nothing.

Eventually he let little things slip, but they only worsened his position. He said that it wasn't reckless "in this instance." Naturally, this led to questions about why this instance was different from others, to which he offered more silence.

Eventually he conceded that the actions in the bakery were reckless and endangered people, so I asked where the line was drawn (quotes are rough, but close): "What's the difference between the reckless actions in the bakery and the reckless actions towards the officers?"

He gave no answer, but after being pressed further and asked again, he offers a response:

Him: "It was only for a second."
Me: "How long does it take for a bullet to reach its target?"

Silence. Staring intently at the floor and table again. I followed up:

"How long does it take to fire a gun?"

Silence. No eye contact. I rephrased again:

"How many seconds before it becomes reckless? Are you saying it's okay to point a gun at a police officer if you only do it for a second?"

Nothing. No reasons, no answers, no thought process. Every now and then he'd repeat his conclusion, and I would explain once again that I wanted to know how he had reached that conclusion. He looked dumbfounded, as if it had never occurred to him that he was required to explain himself. He'd repeat that he wasn't going to change his mind, and I would remind him that we're stuck in this room with specific orders from a judge to talk to each other about this. It made no difference.

The vote for Reckless Endangerment remained 10-2 in favor of guilty, with the one man doubting the police officer's testimony based on his memory of the jacket, and the other simply stonewalling the entire room (he also said some very controverisal things, which I'll get into later). It got so ludicrous that people were chuckling at how blatant the man was ignoring all reason and logic. As one of them put it "what else can you do?"


The Verdict

We went to the judge with our three verdicts, and told him we were deadlocked on the last two counts. He sent us back for another 45 minutes, and we went through the same routine for about 10-15 minutes, with no more progress than before. Still deadlocked, the judge accepted our three verdicts and both sides agreed to throw out the two counts of Reckless Endangerment.


Afterwards

The dropped charges, and the way it happened, was unfortunate, but the Robbery was the most important charge. I was afraid that I might have been hesitant to speak up or take issue with things I disagreed with, and at first I was, but it wasn't an issue after that.

It was amusing to see how quickly everything changed once the verdict was in the books. The defendent was led away and the lawyers asked to leave, and the judge talked with us candidly about his own opinion. He thought we'd gotten it right; the robbery, to his mind, was clear-cut, but the Aggravated Assault charges were too hazy. It was reassuring to hear this, as I was very conflicted about the acquittal there. He asked what the sticking point was on Reckless Endangerment, but nobody spoke up. I considered saying something, but decided not to.

He informed us that we could talk about the case to whomever we liked; the media, if they were there, and the lawyers, who he said often liked to pepper the jury with questions afterwards. He told us that, of course, we should not feel obligated to indulge them. Far from feeling obligated, however, I relished the chance.

It was probably among the most fascinating 30 minutes of my life. Once the trial had ended, everyone from the judge to the lawyers spoke openly and bluntly about everything. It was as if they were simply actors in a play wanting to know how their performances were. We told them we we found compelling, what we didn't, etc. We asked questions about things that never came up, like whether or not the gun was found, if the defendant had a record previous to this, why the people in the bakery didn't testify, etc. The prosecuting attorney said that he was used to the idea that, whatever he thinks a jury's thought process will be, he always ends up being wrong, but that this time, it went the way he would have expected it to. In this sense, he said, it was unexpected by being expected.

About six of us talked to them for a bit, then four. The four of us were, probably not coincidentally, the two most vocal in favor of most of the Guilty charges, and the two holdouts. I stayed until the very end, when all the other jurors had left.

I told them about the stonewalling, the refusal to answer questions, etc. I also told them how he'd said, more than once I believe, that "all cops lie." No kidding. I asked them how he'd gotten by them in the jury selection process, and as I suspected, it seems like that he misled them during the screening, and that he almost certainly lied on the jury questionnaire, which has questions about whether or not you would give more or less weight to a police officer's testimony when compared to other people.

As I eventually walked away, I overheard them saying something about the jury being surprisingly or unusually logical in the way they went about things, which, I admit, made me grin.

Anyway, there are some other little anecdotes, and some other choice phrases from the Willie Nelson juror, which I'll share later, but this post is cray-zay long already, so I'll post those later. :) Dunno if anyone will actually read this from start to finish, but I still find this all very interesting to think and talk about, regardless.

Sexy Celebrity
05-15-09, 01:48 PM
The case was about an alleged robbery two and a half years ago; a young African-American man was being charged with robbing a bakery at gunpoint.

Now why would you rob a bakery?

Rob a BANK... not a bakery! Wrong "B" word.

What was he after? $50 and muffins?

The first day of deliberation was fairly chaotic; we all just tossed out random thoughts about whatever we wanted and argued lightly back and forth.

I hope you made jokes - a bakery!

The next morning, we all returned, and surprisingly a couple of other people had begun to doubt their original vote of Guilty.

Yeah, no big surprise -- he robbed a BAKERY!!!!

One of the holdouts seemed particularly enamored with the idea that the gun might not have been loaded, or even real at all.

It was probably a toy gun you'd lay on top of a cake for a ex-convict's "getting out of prison party". Did you try eating it to see if it was icing?

Things got really sticky here;

Did the bakery bring in sticky buns?

Eventually he conceded that the actions in the bakery were reckless and endangered people, so I asked where the line was drawn

On the cake with a tube of icing.

Sorry, I know this is a serious crime, but I mean, who robs a bakery?

I'll be sent home if I'm ever asked to do jury duty... I'd be like Pauly Shore in that movie, Jury Duty.

Caitlyn
05-15-09, 01:57 PM
Interesting read... thanks for sharing your experience and thank you for speaking out... I had already concluded your "Willie Nelson" had a severe dislike for cops before I read your last few paragraphs... and I sincerely hope the other holdout juror is never placed in a situation where he has to make a split second decision as to whether or not a gun pointed at him is loaded or not...

Ðèstîñy
05-15-09, 01:58 PM
Ditto for Aggravated Assault, which threw a couple of jurors who felt that it must include actual physical assault (in reality, merely pointing a gun at someone qualifies).

"How many seconds before it becomes reckless? Are you saying it's okay to point a gun at a police officer if you only do it for a second?"

You would hope it qualifies. I'd sooner it be the physical contact. It only takes a second for that pointed gun to become a lethal weapon. How would they feel if it was pointed at them, their families? I wonder if they considered that.

and that he almost certainly lied on the jury questionnaire, which has questions about whether or not you would give more or less weight to a police officer's testimony when compared to other people.

I hope the accurate answer is that people are people, so I'd give it the same amount.

Sedai
05-15-09, 02:28 PM
Awesome story. Quite compelling, i must say. I, for one, would hate to have to stand off against you in a battle of logic in a jury situation. That said, I probably would have been on your side in this case, so it wouldn't have mattered.

Yoda
05-15-09, 02:33 PM
Regarding the fact that it was a bakery: it's actually a lot worse than that. He robbed the bakery at 8:45 AM on a Saturday morning, in broad daylight, without a mask or gloves. The funny thing is, as crazy as all these things are, even the choice of target was especially poor, because bakeries are one of the few places people make a point to go to relatively early in the morning.

The sloppiness of the crime actually became somewhat important as we were deliberating, as the other holdout (the one concerned with the jacket) wondered why he would've remained relatively close to the bakery (the incident with the cops happened about a quarter-mile away), to which we pointed out a number of explanations, including the fact that whoever did this made lots of mistakes, so heaping one more onto the pile hardly stretched credulity.

Yoda
05-15-09, 02:41 PM
Flattery will get you everywhere, Mike. ;)

As much as I'd love to pretend I employed some brilliant deduction to make a point, you guys can certainly see that it was a simple conclusion to come to. The only issue was putting it in simple, stark terms, and the willingness to deal with a little social discomfort to make the points heard. And believe me, that became pretty flippin' easy after listening to him talk for awhile.

There were ten very reasonable people in that room who "got" the idea (most with no need of persuasion or even explanation), one who doubted for some odd but at least semi-reasonable reasons, and one stubborn old man too ashamed to change his mind in full view of the rest of us. It's a shame, but at least I'll be able to sleep at night knowing I told him exactly what I thought.

Devils Angel
05-15-09, 02:50 PM
Wow, that was a really interesting read :)
I read it from start to finish and found it really interesting since ive only ever been in a courtroom once on a school project and didnt really see much of it. Its a good insight.

Sleezy
05-15-09, 03:05 PM
Dunno if anyone will actually read this from start to finish, but I still find this all very interesting to think and talk about, regardless.

I read it all. :yup:

VERY fascinating experience. I'm particularly interested in the troublesome juror, and why he might have taken the position that he did. But his comment that "all cops lie" obviously indicates a personal bias, probably stemming from some past experience in which he was (at least in his view) wronged by law enforcement. While I can certainly sympathize with the man about past experiences, if he was truly victimized, it's worrisome to see that such experiences - real or imagined - can ultimately breed bias and generalized opinions of the most hardened variety. And there's certainly a lot that can be said about the dangers of that.

On the other hand, his bias might have stemmed from a past conflict he was privvy to only indirectly (as in, through a relative or close friend), in which the truth might have further been skewed; or simply through the kind of blind, bigoted upbringing that has plagued many people throughout the last 60 years or so. Either way, the guy was wrong to choose personal feelings over reason so completely, and it's a shame that people like will likely never be able to get over their own barriers once built.

rufnek
05-15-09, 03:59 PM
Interesting account of your experience as a juror, Yoda. Wasn't anything like you see in the movies, huh!

Most surprising thing to me is 1) that case ever got to court--sounds like something that should have been plea bargained. 2) That y'all apparently took 2-3 days to get a verdict. A Texas jury would have been back in the courtroom in 2-3 hours. :)

I take it that in Pennsylvania the jurors don't set the penalty, since you didn't mention how much time the perpetrator got.

Ol' "Willie" was right--all cops lie. Because they're people and all people lie at one time or another. Doesn't mean they always lie. On the other hand, a robber is dishonest by definition. So is the suspect lying if he claims he's not the robber? Usually a prosecutor or the defense attorney ask jurors if they think police are more or less to be trusted than the defendant, and "Willie's" claim would have got him instantly dismissed.

I've covered litterally hundreds of trials and never could figure out what might tip jurors one way or another. But one thing I did learn over the years. Prosecutors and police never worry if a suspect is turned loose or convicted of a lesser crime or receives a less harsh sentence than they would have preferred. Because prosecutors and police work on the theory that they will get another chance at that suspect somewhere down the line. If he's released on probation, all they have to do is check up on him ever now and then for a couple of months. Sooner or later, he'll violate the terms of his probation and will go straight to jail with no detour through the courtroom.

rufnek
05-15-09, 04:02 PM
Now why would you rob a bakery?

Because that's where they keep the dough! Didn't you ever hear Willie Sutton's explanation?

Yoda
03-30-18, 03:12 PM
Welp, I just got a summons in the mail, so I figured I'd bump this in case I get chosen again.

Camo
03-30-18, 03:16 PM
Oh god, i haven't read any of this but i'm tempted to publish a NYT Best Selling two page book of your post and SC's responses.

Yoda
03-30-18, 03:28 PM
:laugh: Yeah, pretty good stuff. His post almost feels like a standup routine.

I'm actually a little worried that, if I get chosen, I'll end up having been the only (or one of the only) people to have served before, and get asked to be foreman or something based on that alone. But we'll see. I'll find out if I need to come in at all in around four weeks, and if I do, I'll find out the next day if I get chosen.

Camo
03-30-18, 03:38 PM
:laugh: Yeah, pretty good stuff. His post almost feels like a standup routine.

I'm actually a little worried that, if I get chosen, I'll end up having been the only (or one of the only) people to have served before, and get asked to be foreman or something based on that alone. But we'll see. I'll find out if I need to come in at all in around four weeks, and if I do, I'll find out the next day if I get chosen.

There's like seven different Sitcoms that address the 'How to get out of jury duty?' question. You're just being lazy :p

I've not been picked yet, a friend of mine was a few weeks ago though and we were joking about the funny stories he'll tell about the obviously minor case after it's done ...then nope! Won't go into it but it was definitely stomach churning.

cat_sidhe
03-31-18, 07:36 AM
Oh god, i haven't read any of this but i'm tempted to publish a NYT Best Selling two page book of your post and SC's responses.

Wish I could have read the responses. *sigh*

gandalf26
03-31-18, 01:21 PM
I served on a Jury here in the UK about 12-13 years ago when I was around 20.

The UK system at that time meant you were called up for 2 weeks and could serve on several juries/cases. I was allowed to leave early the 2nd week because I had my driving test.

I must say that as a 20 year old male all I cared about at the time was getting home to my playstation and was bored to tears through most of it. Looking back at the experience though it was quite interesting.

I sat on 2 cases whilst on Jury service.

1st Case


"Lewd Conduct". The charge was that a man had been masturbating in public by the side of a road opposite a public toilet notorious for its gay activities, the sort of place George Micheal would frequent :). The man was spotted by a woman driving along the road who beeped her horn in disgust and drove off into town, followed by the man. She parked outside a fast food outlet and went inside to explain what was happening whilst the man waited in his own car outside. Police were called and he was arrested. Interestingly the Police asked him whilst he was in their car "does your wife know you are gay"?, which they denied whilst being cross examined by the defence lawyer. We talked about that in the Jury room and were all of the opinion that they probably did ask him, but it was of little consequence.

Basically the man said he had been urinating on the side of the road and had been "shaking himself off" afterwards when the woman drove past, which is a bit dubious considering across the road there was a public toilet.

In the Jury room initially there was a majority saying not guilty, a few saying not sure myself included and interestingly several older jurors 60+ were saying guilty. It didn't take very long to deliberate and come to a Not guilty decision. The main point being that it was essentially a his word vs her word and we weren't prepared to tarnish the mans reputation despite believing that it was probably true, the point was raised that being dragged through the courts and embarrassed like this was probably punishment enough.

"2nd Case"


Was quite an open and shut case of theft of money from a Garage. Quickly came to a Not Guilty again, no real evidence.

Thoughts

Looking back I would say that I was a little young for the experience, and was probably quite impressionable in the Jury room just looking to get the whole thing over with. One thing I clearly remember was that there were some jurors who really felt that this was there chance to do something important and were really up for discussion of every point in depth, whilst there were others in there like me who didn't care much and wanted to get it over with. Would this attitude have changed if a case was hugely significant like a murder, I like to believe it would.

Yoda
04-25-18, 12:03 PM
Welp, I find out on Friday if I have to go in. If I do, I'll be going in Monday. Will update here accordingly.

Chypmunk
04-25-18, 12:25 PM
Welp, I find out on Friday if I have to go in. If I do, I'll be going in Monday. Will update here accordingly.
If you do have to - does that mean we should not watch any fillums until you are let back out or can we still watch them but just not write them up? :goof:

Yoda
04-25-18, 12:26 PM
I'll leave that your own impeccable judgment, of course.

Chypmunk
04-25-18, 12:39 PM
In that case I'll just wing it as per normal if I need to :)

ynwtf
04-25-18, 04:03 PM
hey! 12 likes for 12 disgruntled people! Isn't that a musical or something?

Dani8
04-25-18, 04:20 PM
Goodluck. Just out of curiosity, how much do you guys in Murica get paid per day? I'm sure this question was answered before but I forgot.

ynwtf
04-25-18, 04:40 PM
Oh wow. While reading the OP, I kept thinking how coincidental it was that I thought I remembered a recent post of Yoda's claiming something about being summoned for Jury Duty. I assumed that this post must be a secondary continuation of that summons announcement. The question kept bugging me though that for as much nudging as there is for consolidating duplicate posts, then "why would Yoda make a second thread for the same topic?" I could barely focus on the narrative as this background thought just kept bursting through my concentration demanding resolution!

The first, following, response seemed odd too as I did not recognize the user name. Sure, I've only been here just over a year and there's no way for me to be familiar with all active users, but this thread topic seems like an obscure matter of interest that only the most frequent users would probably respond to. Yet I've never seen this user's name before! It could not be a new user, as most of them posting from a one-off Google search seem to not stick around long enough to know how to create a custom avatar. This user had one though, so what am I missing?! oh and WHY THE DUPLICATE THREAD TOPIC?!?

Then I notice the post date.

WTF?! How am I reading a post today, from the top of the list, posted almost a decade back?! Still, I was not connecting this thread to the one I was remembering earlier in which Yoda noted his recent summons adding to now THREE unsolved mysteries!!! My thoughts were so caught up in this analysis that I completely missed the obvious. That is, until I read the remainder of responses.

GEEEEEEEZ I make things complicated. A lot.

Fascinating read, by the way. Human psychology is always an interesting thing to me. I would have enjoyed spectating the interactions.

Dani8
04-25-18, 07:41 PM
LOL Y/No. That was a fun read.

Yoda
04-27-18, 08:31 PM
I'm off the hook.

Omnizoa
05-07-18, 11:53 PM
The case was about an alleged robbery two and a half years ago;
GOD ****ING DAMMIT.

We also pointed out to him that the issues of fear and threat are beside the point when determining whether or not a potentially dangerous situation was created. He merely repeated his conclusion. I explained that he was only giving us his decision, and not his thought process or rationale for it. He stared at the table and floor, refusing to answer or make eye contact.

I asked him why pointing a gun at a cop isn't creating a dangerous situation. No answer. I asked him whether or not people should be allowed to point guns at cops. No answer. I asked the entire room "is there anyone here who doesn't want an answer to the questions I'm asking?" Everyone wanted an answer. He said nothing.

Eventually he let little things slip, but they only worsened his position. He said that it wasn't reckless "in this instance." Naturally, this led to questions about why this instance was different from others, to which he offered more silence.

Eventually he conceded that the actions in the bakery were reckless and endangered people, so I asked where the line was drawn (quotes are rough, but close): "What's the difference between the reckless actions in the bakery and the reckless actions towards the officers?"

He gave no answer, but after being pressed further and asked again, he offers a response:

Him: "It was only for a second."
Me: "How long does it take for a bullet to reach its target?"

Silence. Staring intently at the floor and table again. I followed up:

"How long does it take to fire a gun?"

Silence. No eye contact. I rephrased again:

"How many seconds before it becomes reckless? Are you saying it's okay to point a gun at a police officer if you only do it for a second?"

Nothing. No reasons, no answers, no thought process. Every now and then he'd repeat his conclusion, and I would explain once again that I wanted to know how he had reached that conclusion. He looked dumbfounded, as if it had never occurred to him that he was required to explain himself.
I legit watched 12 Angry Men yesterday, wish I'd been there to see it.

Once the trial had ended, everyone from the judge to the lawyers spoke openly and bluntly about everything. It was as if they were simply actors in a play wanting to know how their performances were.
Well, courtroom culture is ****ing ridiculous. You have to dress a certain way, you have to speak a certain way, it's pretty much a sham to suggest that anyone in a courtroom is expected to be totally honest.

I also told them how he'd said, more than once I believe, that "all cops lie." No kidding.
Wow. Yeah, slight issue with the juror selection process there.

it seems like that he misled them during the screening,
That'd do it. Sorta like asking a voter "Would you in good conscience vote against your political party if it was discovered they had lead a dishonest campaign?" Oh yes, absolutely, mm-hm.

Stirchley
02-05-20, 01:46 PM
... and get asked to be foreman or something based on that alone.

If I had been called I would have said upfront to fellow jurors that I am not gonna be the foreman. I tend to be selected for stuff like this. Someone once told me that my British accent automatically leads people to think I’m intelligent. :rolleyes:

Yoda
02-05-20, 01:48 PM
Wear glasses too and people will think you're a genius.

Stirchley
02-05-20, 02:12 PM
⬆️ I do wear glasses for distance. And I’ve been joking that my new glasses make me look very intelligent. :p

Austruck
02-05-20, 06:02 PM
Yoda comes by his logical-juror skills genetically. I have my own "12 Angry Men" story of my first jury duty, back when Yoda was just a toddler. It really was way too much like the movie. I was literally the only person voting guilty through the entire first day, and when everyone discovered that we weren't going to be allowed to go home until we came up with a unanimous vote -- and that I would not change my mind -- I slowly swung everyone around to my deductions.

In my case, though, the other 11 were the ones without logic or reasoning, so I was the one questioning all of them ... once they got done harassing me. We were in a second-floor jury room in downtown Pittsburgh, with no air conditioning, in late May 1986. I was pregnant with Yoda's younger brother. It was awful in that room. Oh, and they allowed smoking, so one juror next to me kept blowing smoke in my face. In my pregnant face. Oh joy.

If anybody wanted to give up and go with the crowd, it was me. But I couldn't let this guy walk. It was a drunk driving case. Some of the stupid reasons the others wanted to acquit were: "What if this was your brother? Would you want him to go to jail?" Or, after he admitted to drinking "a bottle" of liquor, one juror said, "What if it was one of those little bottles like you get on airplanes?"

But early in the third day, with a very frustrated judge who told us bluntly it was an EASY CASE, we came in with a Guilty verdict. It was an enlightening experience because I hadn't realized how much juries are full of STUPID PEOPLE. :D They need to teach logic in these schools! :D

I was on one other jury after that, and then got called a third time but didn't have to serve that time. That's enough for me for a while. :)

But if any of you here feel you are honest and fair, then please don't automatically try to get out of jury duty. It's an eye-opener, for sure, and juries need reasonable people who can use logic.

Stirchley
02-05-20, 06:41 PM
In my case, though, the other 11 were the ones without logic or reasoning, so I was the one questioning all of them ... once they got done harassing me.

All in the Family, season 1, had an episode where Edith is the hung juror much to the intense annoyance of the other jurors, all of whom are sequestered. Edith prevails though & the guy is acquitted because the real culprit fessed up.

BTW, bet you any money a pregnant woman won’t make it on to a modern-day jury. God forbid she has labor pains at the summing up. :rolleyes:

Austruck
02-05-20, 07:42 PM
Well, I wasn't due till October, and this was May, sooo.... :) That'd be discrimination.

Stirchley
02-05-20, 07:55 PM
⬆️ It would be discrimination today also. But defendants’ attorneys know all the phraseology to suggest to a juror candidate that maybe they’d rather be someplace else. :p

Austruck
02-05-20, 09:12 PM
True. My being pregnant would, I'm sure, have made the defense attorney think I might be harsher. But honestly, the wishy-washy folks in that jury room were all over the demographical map: old women, young women, young and old men. I was kinda unique in that room, and to this day it astounds me just how little juries do what is asked of them.

Stirchley
02-07-20, 02:47 PM
⬆️ Keep in mind that was 36 years ago. Nothing is the same anymore. Things used to be more relaxed. Can only imagine the voir dire now.

Austruck
02-07-20, 03:12 PM
Well, the second jury I served on was only a few years ago. The same lack of logic skills and tendency to want to just acquit and go home showed up then too. Thankfully, though, we were mostly on the same page to begin with and, like Yoda's case, we had multiple charges to contend with, so would acquit on one and find him guilty on another. (It was an off-duty cop in a bar fight.)

Frankly, if I ever get accused of a crime, I'm not sure I want to be tried by a jury of my peers. :D :D

Austruck
02-07-20, 10:32 PM
60258

Yoda
03-11-25, 07:43 PM
Got a summons in the mail a few weeks ago, and found out a couple of hours ago that I do, indeed, have to report tomorrow.

Still probably (hopefully) won't get chosen, but we'll see.

John McClane
03-11-25, 07:51 PM
all i know is if i ever get called for jury duty they are really gonna regret asking me questions. i am lunacy incarnate. maybe that would work out for you, Yoda, if you’re trying to get out? ;)

EDIT: not that i encourage that sorta thing. it just comes naturally to me so kinda hard to turn it off

Yoda
03-11-25, 08:01 PM
Sadly, my sense of civic duty manages to barely outweigh my self-interest.

Most of the inconvenience is in having to go down initially, at all, and that ship's already sailed.

Austruck
03-11-25, 08:44 PM
Sadly, my sense of civic duty manages to barely outweigh my self-interest.

Most of the inconvenience is in having to go down initially, at all, and that ship's already sailed.

Part of me (the part that has already been on two juries) would love to see you serve on a jury. Frankly, the jury of our peers is usually riddled with idiots who can't hold together a logical thought, let alone determine someone's innocence or guilt using the rules given to them by the judge. I know you'd be a fabulous, clear-thinking juror.

I mean, if *I* could convince 11 other people to my way of thinking (back when you were a toddler), you could do that far better than I ever could!

I mean, once you're already down there (the inconvenience of driving, parking, getting settled in, etc.), the worst part is over. (Well, unless you're with 11 other idiots, like I was that first time.) :D

Bring something to read. :D (Do you have to go downtown, or somewhere else?)

Yoda
03-11-25, 10:23 PM
I've done it once before (described in the first post in the thread). It was quite an experience. And yeah, I have to go downtown. I'm bringing a laptop, phone, and probably a book or something.

Austruck
03-11-25, 10:30 PM
I've done it once before (described in the first post in the thread). It was quite an experience. And yeah, I have to go downtown. I'm bringing a laptop, phone, and probably a book or something.
The worst part of your day will be parking downtown and getting in the building then. :D

Austruck
03-11-25, 10:30 PM
I've done it once before (described in the first post in the thread). It was quite an experience. And yeah, I have to go downtown. I'm bringing a laptop, phone, and probably a book or something.
I asked, just in case you were called for, like, a federal jury or a grand jury, which might have had a totally different location. :)

Takoma11
03-11-25, 10:45 PM
I've only been called to jury duty once. An attempted murder case that was, thankfully, pleaded out before the trial began.

Most memorable part of the whole thing was the man who clearly wanted to be dismissed from the jury pool----showed up in ripped up pants, outlandish shirt, and literally a small pile of dirt on his shoulder.

Takoma11
03-11-25, 10:46 PM
What I'm saying is: have you considered showing up with a small pile of dirt on your shoulder?

StuSmallz
03-12-25, 02:53 AM
Or pretended to be prejudiced against your own ethnicity, like Peter Griffin?:


https://i.ibb.co/sJp0Y3b6/eL12q5.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

ScarletLion
03-12-25, 06:59 AM
Frankly, the jury of our peers is usually riddled with idiots who can't hold together a logical thought, let alone determine someone's innocence or guilt using the rules given to them by the judge.

This, too is my experience of recent jury duty.

I was a juror on a case of alleged sexual assault of a disabled person. And my experience was:

50% fascinated by getting to see the UK judicial process play out
50% utterly dismayed, angry, disillusioned and crestfallen at how my fellow members of society seem unable to follow a few clear guidlines written on a piece of paper.

ScarletLion
03-12-25, 07:02 AM
Or pretended to be prejudiced against your own ethnicity, like Peter Griffin?:


https://i.ibb.co/sJp0Y3b6/eL12q5.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

Don't suppose you know what episode of FG that is from?

Austruck
03-12-25, 06:48 PM
So, here we all sit, waiting for Yoda to update us on the day's events.... :D

StuSmallz
03-13-25, 04:06 AM
Don't suppose you know what episode of FG that is from?I think it's from this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Sings_and_Swings

ScarletLion
03-13-25, 06:11 AM
I think it's from this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Sings_and_Swings

epic thanks

matt72582
03-13-25, 09:44 AM
https://youtu.be/1k4fYIUuAP8

Yoda
03-13-25, 11:23 AM
The entire jury panel was dismissed at the end of the day. Possibly a plea? I don't know. But we went through the whole thing: impaneled most of us, interviewed several dozen (including me), then they stop at 4:00 and announce we're all down. Could've only been a couple of different things.

It was for a homicide, too, was gonna be five days next week. :eek:

Austruck
03-13-25, 11:48 AM
The entire jury panel was dismissed at the end of the day. Possibly a plea? I don't know. But we went through the whole thing: impaneled most of us, interviewed several dozen (including me), then they stop at 4:00 and announce we're all down. Could've only been a couple of different things.

It was for a homicide, too, was gonna be five days next week. :eek:

If you went to the end of the day, then yeah, could've been a plea deal for sure. But I THINK the way jury selection works around here, it could also have just meant they couldn't get finished or didn't find folks they were wild about that day. So if there was no plea, they'd continue again today with new folks (since you don't have to keep coming back if you weren't chosen on day one).

I was gonna say you dodged a bullet, but since the case involves homicide, well... No, I'll allow it. A pun is a pun. :D

Were they selecting for only that one trial all day? Sounds like it could've been a big case, especially since they told you to expect five days! Both of my jury trials lasted one day (the courtroom part). I was the idiot who dragged that first jury out into a third day, and my second one went into a second day but mostly because there was a lot more courtroom time on day one.

Yoda
03-13-25, 11:53 AM
Right, my first thought was they didn't get enough, but it seems weird to think that they have to get all 14 people in one day or they start over. I would've assumed they'd just 'keep' people and finish up the next morning. And yes, a big case. They said if we got selected it wouldn't start the next day (like it did the first time I was on a jury), but next week, and would probably go five full days.

During the process a few people were taken aside but in at least one case this looked like someone being dismissed very clearly/early. There was a little spiel the defense attorney read about the different types of charge possible in a homicide, and I believe he only read that to people who made it to the end of voir dire without any obvious red flags.

Austruck
03-13-25, 12:15 PM
Right, my first thought was they didn't get enough, but it seems weird to think that they have to get all 14 people in one day or they start over. I would've assumed they'd just 'keep' people and finish up the next morning. And yes, a big case. They said if we got selected it wouldn't start the next day (like it did the first time I was on a jury), but next week, and would probably go five full days.

During the process a few people were taken aside but in at least one case this looked like someone being dismissed very clearly/early. There was a little spiel the defense attorney read about the different types of charge possible in a homicide, and I believe he only read that to people who made it to the end of voir dire without any obvious red flags.

I'll say this much: since both attorneys have to agree on a candidate, some might NOT want someone who seems logical, very intelligent, and very articulate. (Yes, I mean you.) It really depends on the strength of their case on either side. Do they want the usual easily swayed sheep? Maybe so. Do they want someone who can see through courtroom theatrics and who will nitpick every litlte thing they see and hear? Maybe NOT.

It's such a song and dance between the prosecutor and the defense, and I found even that part interesting. So did you get past the first "room" they call you away from then? The one time of three that I didn't get seated on a jury, I didn't even get called out of the big, main room. They were choosing for three smallish cases that day. Two settled while we were there, and they chose the third without getting to me for even the first interview.

Yoda
03-13-25, 12:47 PM
Yeah, I was interviewed during voir dire. It was in the same room but a little set apart so you could hear some of what was said but not most (depending on volume). When they impaneled from the main jury pool I was called 13th, which is pretty early, so I figured if the trial went ahead there was a pretty high chance I'd get picked. And maybe I would've if not for whatever happened (still presuming a plea, but there are some other less likely explanations that fit what happened).