Pornography

[Sir Toose]

I'm curious. Do you all think porn is degrading? Do you think that if a man watches porn it alters the way he sees women? Is the opposite true? If a woman watches porn does it alter the way she reacts with men? Is porn a natural extension of our interest in sex to carry forward the species or a sick spin-off?

I don't where I stand, really. There's some that's pure sickness but there is also some that I find non-offensive.


Take a deep breath T.... don't answer off the cuff.

[Yoda]

You know me well, Toose. :laugh:

I think it's harmful...no doubt about it. However, I don't think of it as a great evil. It's so widespread...so common. It seem as if almost no one is immune, so, IMO, it's not something to make a big fuss over, unless it becomes very habitual. Just my opinion, though.

[spudracer]

I think that it will affect some people. Some are less effected by it, but still affected. I can't speak for a woman, but I think the only thing that will and should change a person's feelings towards the opposite sex is actually having contact with another person.

If it takes something less than that to effect you, you need help.

Personally, I found a strip club to be degrading to the girl's on stage. I went with a group and left about thirty minutes after getting there. Just nasty.

The so-called "soft porn" doesn't bother me, but anything hard core is just nasty.

[sadesdrk]

Okay, at the risk of sounding totally predictable, I think some porn, is fine. The women in those films chose to do it, no one is forcing them...and some women even aspire to be porn stars. That's just what they wanna do.

For me, I would never personally BE in one, no way...but I've seen a few. Some of them were too dirty and raunchy, for my taste, so I didn't watch long. Some were really sexy...and I was turned on by it.

So, I guess the bottom line is: Porn is alright with me!!! (as long as it's not sick or crude)

[Yoda]

Well, I would agree that they make their own choices. If it's degrading to women, it's not because of the women in the videos, but because of the way women in general are portrayed. I don't think strippers are being degraded...if anything, they're degrading the men who are falling all over themselves to stuff dollar bills into their g-strings (think about it...the men look far worse in that situation).

The degrading to women issue, I think, doesn't apply to those actually having sex on the screen. I don't know if it actually lowers a man's view of women. IMO, though, it MUST, even if only in some small ways. Whether or not it is in a way that is noteworthy or at all significant remains to be seen...I honestly can't say. IE: I don't know if it's a sin against God, or a sin against God and women in general. It's hard to say.

[Sir Toose]

What about exposure levels?

Is it valid to say that people who view alot of porn are likely to see sexual relationships differently than those who have seen one film... or none at all?

This is the gray area. It calls to mind the court case against Ozzy Osbourne several years back regarding the song "Suicide Solution." A teen killed himself and his parents charged that it was because of over exposure to this song. The song is actually about abuse of alchohol and alchohol as a chemical "solution"... a mixture of grains, water etc versus a solution to a problem. The parents lost the case but you hear people trying to validate this argument all the time. Is desensitation a factor?

[Yoda]

I'd say it is. But it depends on the person. I think a person with the right frame of mind is effected by the existence of pornography, so that, unless viewed at extreme levels, the way the person is effected is consistent. The type of person who, by seeing and understanding one pornographic movie, will be practically the same after 100, simply because they have a handle on how it all works (that's the best way I can describe such a mindset).

There are some, though, who I think quantity determines all...the more they watch, the more it affects them. I'd say most people are probably one or the other.

I mean, will anyone here deny that it has negative effects? Seems to me that that is a given, and that the only plausible defense is that it is an inevitable vice, or that it is simply not a VERY harmful one.

[sadesdrk]

Originally posted by TWTCommish
I mean, will anyone here deny that it has negative effects? Seems to me that that is a given, and that the only plausible defense is that it is an inevitable vice, or that it is simply not a VERY harmful one. I think lots of people have a problem with pornography. I'm not just talking about the movies, I'm talking about the stuff on the internet, too. Some men, maybe a few women, are addicted to it; just like heroin addicts are addicted to heroin. So there IS some damaging effects to those who are abusing it. However, porn is unique in that, you can watch a couple of pornos and I don't think you're going to be severly traumatized; like say, you would be if you use heroin a couple of times.
What I'm saying is that porn is one of those vices that is damaging in exsesive amounts only. Like caffeine. I drink a cup of coffee or two a day...but I'm not drinking a whole pot in 20 minutes.
Anyways...I forgot the point I was addressing or trying to make, so. There ya go.:laugh:

[Sir Toose]

Negative effects on the viewer or the performer, T?


Sadie... I can never stretch the pot of coffee to 20 minutes...:laugh:

[Yoda]

Personally I think it's a given that the performer will be highly (and negatively) effected by it. Having sex for a living is...disturbing. Sex is more important than that.

And yeah, it is only a REAL problem (I mean, a significant problem. I think it's a problem in any form, even if it's a small one) if it becomes addictive...however, for some, it WILL become an addiction if they give into it at all, really. Kind of like a recovering alcoholic: one beer doesn't make them a drunk again...but it'll probably lead to that.

[Sir Toose]

So then T, are you saying that people can be negatively effected by media? Like the kid and the Ozzy song? Or any type of music like that? Or is your view limited to porn?

[Yoda]

Sure they can. Though that doesn't mean the blame is not with that person. They still choose to watch it. The flux of pornography in this world these days serves as a major temptation, and if I were born 200 years ago, it wouldn't even be a possibility...but it's still my choice to make.

There are definitely people, IMO, though, who are grounded enough that things like that don't effect them significantly.

[Sir Toose]

It always boils down to the individual... I agree

[sadesdrk]

Originally posted by TWTCommish
Personally I think it's a given that the performer will be highly (and negatively) effected by it. Having sex for a living is...disturbing. Sex is more important than that.

I agree. I totally agree with this. Having sex like that...is just wrong.

[Yoda]

See, that poses another question, though: if it's really and truly wrong to actually "star" in pornographic movies (let's face it: we wouldn't encourage it in our children or friends or anyone we care about), is it made a little more wrong to watch it, then, as it serves to support and encourage the industry?

[sadesdrk]

Originally posted by TWTCommish
is it made a little more wrong to watch it, then, as it serves to support and encourage the industry? Probably. I dunno...

[Sir Toose]

Well, that opens even more doors, actually. What about the performer's individual mind set. Maybe she can have sex all day and go home and bake cookies and be a great mom and keep the things seperated. She's being entrepeneurial and taking advantage of an industry that nets her high returns. Maybe it doesn't bother her a bit... maybe to her sex is mechanical...

[Yoda]

Well, I dunno about that, then. I guess I'd have to say that the person MUST be effected negatively somehow. I find it hard to believe that sex can be purely mechanical for them. If it is, though, I think they've got some problems...I don't think it's supposed to be that way at all.

[Sunfrogolin]

I don't think anyone is affected or degraded except the actors. The only effect pron has on it's viewers it to make them :randy: :yup:

[Sexy Celebrity]

Originally posted by Toose
Maybe she can have sex all day and go home and bake cookies and be a great mom and keep the things seperated.

If she's a great mom, then who's the great dad that baked her cookies?

[thmilin]

Alrighty. Let's tackle this. ;) Porn has pros and cons, like anything else.

I agree with a lot of you on a lot of points. My overall feeling, having weighed the pros and cons, is this: Man (the race) is a sexual being, geared toward procreation. Man is not an animal; however, our society has yet to evolve to a state far enough removed from our physicality to not freely, willingly, and commonly embrace the base within us (violence, sex, drugs, etc). Until that point comes, mankind is going to continue to support the oldest known profession - men are going to want sex, and they're going to want it easily at their fingertips. It is comforting, it is too available, and it is a short term vice that they can indulge in without it taking over their lives (if they are average, have a job, and know how to control it). Basically, if you have junk food in your fridge, and someone in your household keeps buying it - you're going to keep eating it and not ever REALLY be sorry about it or try to stop unless 1) someone gets on your case, 2) someone takes it away.

Modern society is encouraging women to develop the same point of view. It is too early to say if we will equal the mindset but we are definitely shifting toward it. "Sex in the City" is definitely proof. Women are not just encouraged to BE a sexual being - they are encouraged to go out and have as much sex as they're appetite requires. Just like men. Eat all the junk food in the fridge at your leisure, then go ahead and get some more.

But there is a difference. Being a sexual being (having sexual desires, being unashamed and unafraid of them, and choosing to act upon them) is entirely different from taking every opportunity based on societal encouragement to prove how hip, modern, and "empowered" you are. It doesn't mean a damned thing if all that encouragement now results in MOST PEOPLE having an STD of some kind and ruining it for all the rest of us who DON'T indulge just because we CAN and we think doing so MEANS something. It doesn't matter if men are happy women are more aggressive. Short term happiness is not important. Long term happiness and health IS. All the sex you can have NOW doesn't matter if when you're 50 no one wants to touch you below the neck. If we continue along this path most of us are going to have some disease for most of our lives, and most of us are going to regret it. Unless we remain virgins till we die.

[Yoda]

Well, I agree, but that's another matter, I think...disease, that is. I'm sure virtually no one here will condone a bed-hoppin' lifestyle. Though it is interesting that sex on a little screen is somehow less harmful than actual sex. It's not surprising...but how many of us would rather be ADDICTED to porn than just somewhat loose about our actual sexual partners?

That's the danger of it in this age: like Miriam said...accessible as hell, and very, very private, if you want it to be. Therefore no one ever needs know. If you sleep with everyone you date, basically, word will probably get out. If you're addicted to porn and you keep it to yourself, there's no reason why anyone should ever find out, really...and let's face it: shame, whether we like it or not, is a hell of a teacher sometimes. With porn these days, that teacher is virtually non-existent, leaving people to rely only on their conscience, which tends to get the crap beat out of it when shoved into the ring with sex drive.

[thmilin]

well yeah, porn let's you be private about it. but think about it - if the DEMAND is high, and porn is a large industry in and of itself literally making billions of dollars in the US alone, then a lot more "performers" are out there doing it. So yeah, a lot of people may be buying it and re-enacting it, and a lot are just buying it and buying it, and getting addicted to it. Either way - bad. In the long term, i say. The thing is, porn hasn't been around, on this level, for that long. 30 years as a professional industry. That's not long. It's already got sick side parts. WHat happens to society when it's been around for 100 years? What will we have evolved to?

ok, also, i wanted to get to this:

Now, pros and cons. You may think I'm paranoid about the disease thing. HA!

PROS

The women who do this have two options. These are the ONLY reasons they tend to do this. 1) Money 2) Enjoying sex. It can include both or be one or the other. If it's 2, 1 is just a happy byproduct. Some women don't really care - they just love the sex that much - and in a way, like to be USED for porn - this in and of itself satisfies them. They please others and are glad to this and they see it as a service. Either to others, or themselves.

- A woman CAN be a successful professional and find herself gratified by her sexual skill and beauty in the profession, as well as make tons money.
- A woman CAN divide this from her home life and still have kids and a husband, etc. There are plenty of women in porn, amateur and professional, who do this.
- A woman CAN find herself the equal of a man, if she has the self pride and strength. She chooses the profession and conquers it, and does not allow herself to be debased. Like Nina Hartley. Tia Carrere. Jenna Jameson. Janeane - I forgot her last name.
- You can do this for a short time and move on. It doesn't have to CONSUME your life.
- You can explore your sexuality and if you are an exhibitionist, into s&m, into various other fetishes we won't get into - you can have others to explore it with and have the most fulfilling sex of your life.
-Porn can be a way for people to explore/relieve their own sexual interests. In moderation, it can be like, as you've said, having coffee, eating rich food. It can be a way for a couple to overcome communication problems and to find what they both want sexually within the relationship. It can be a way to push boundaries and 1) self express 2) be UNAFRAID of your sexuality. I think those are good things. We are sexual beings and in our currently still very puritanical society the norm is still to repress this reality of who we are as human beings.

CONS

- Those in the porn industry on version H of Herpes. Or some other STD, can't remember. I read an investigative article on it. 3 women were interviewed - one amateur, one gonzo (all out, nutty, bizarre, raw, hard core porn), one mainstream (like Tia Carrere, etc - big studios like Vivid housing them and their work). The woman in gonzo confirmed that they all swap their diseases. A man may walk in and have a sore on his stuff. Girl will say - what's that? He will say, a f*ck sore (as in, he just rubbed for too long and got a sore). And she will know it's something else but won't argue. Then when she gets it, she'll know for sure. If you are IN this industry, all you can do is wear a condom. That's it. And a condom is not going to save your butt because ANY SEXUAL CONTACT is going to give you an STD. So. You're screwed. Literally. These people know this. But they choose to LIVE it. A woman will have a child and this woman will have Herpes. She will have a house, and a home, and send the kids off to school. But she is carrying diseases from other people. And yet, a lot of these woman still want rights to the life they would have lived if they WEREN'T getting paid to have sex for a living.

- Abasement/Degradation - Some women in the industry are indeed pushed into it, bywhatever means. They didn't really want to but needed money, or had a boyfriend who bullied them, and bam, they can't get out of it (Linda Lovelace). But the majority are women who chose it - and this is the deal. It's just like modelling, and the women who complain about the realities. If you want to STAY a model, you have to DO things you don't want to do. If you don't, you will get phased out and those who WILL do those things replace you. If you want it badly enough you go right on ahead and let 50 men do what they want to you for a marathon session. You will do exactly what the director tells you even if you feel like you're being treated like raw meat. It is only AFTER you please enough people that you get enough power of your own (once again, Nina Hartley, Jenna Jameson, etc). Those women started out little league. Those women got stepped on, told to bend over and take this. As a rule, any woman in porn is going to HAVE to do several things. She is going to HAVE to do one on one and group lesbian scenes. She is going to have to do bjs. She is going to have to do group. She will have to do a threesome, with two men and one woman and a man. If she finds being made to do these things degrading yet still wishes to pursue the career - then she's just going to have lie back and take it.

A man watching a woman be debased is going to give him WHAT point of view of women? That its ok to be debased. That she WANTS to be a slut and used for someone else's pleasure and that a woman he DESIRES (sexually) should fulfill whatever fantasies of what a desirable woman IS from the idea he's gotten from porn, friends, mags, tv, movies, etc.

- So, adverse affects on society - men watching porn who have it at their beck and call can often and usually DO have a slightly warped point of view. They become aware that there are scads of women out there to have sex with. Period. This is their first introduction, because unless a parent CATCHES the child before they ever hear about porn or see sexy references in a movie, that's what the boy is going to learn. Not that there are scads of women to GET TO KNOW as a person and THEN if you have an attraction explore it. Hormones and the encouragement i talked about above basically teach boys at the get go - look for a girl with big hooters and a pretty smile and convince her to get you off, and do this as soon as possible. You are not a man until you do so. You are going to get flack until you do so. You are uncool until you do so. Unless you've got strict parents who get to the kids before the outside world does.

After a few encounters and a couple decades of bad relationships and whatnot, the guy will finally figure out that no, he should have gotten to know the girl first because the sex wasn't worth the emotional or psychological stress. If he's an average decent fellow who plans on marriage, kids, and a job, etc. I say that's a waste of time to have discovered this reality. Men shouldn't grow up when they're 30. They should be learning that crap well before they're 20. And so should girls. Girls are learning the same thing. If i put on a low cut blouse I'll get him to go to the prom with me. If i let him feel me up a little, he'll take me out. If I tease him just enough, I can get him to fall in love with me. How close can I get to that line or should I CROSS it in order to be with a boy and get emotional fulfillment?? Why do you think we have 12 year olds getting pregnant? Because there are boys out there who think it is their god given right to get sex on the spot when they want it, to OWN a woman and own her sexually and if one doesn't cooperate - move on.

So there. Porn isn't evil but it DOES encourage bad behavior in both sexes, behavior which I honestly believe, if it continues and our values don't change to do damage control, will continue to work it's subtle poison the character of our young people and their physical and psychological health.

I will step off my soapbox now. :) *bows*

[B&W]

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery."

"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart"

- Jesus Christ

[Yoda]

B&W, as far as I can see, it has already been 100% established here that it's a negative thing. HOW negative, and negative in what ways, is what we're discussing here.

[sadesdrk]

thmmie knows a lot about porn.:eek:

[Sexy Celebrity]

And thankfully, she shared it all with us. ;)

[B&W]

B&W, as far as I can see, it has already been 100% established here that it's a negative thing. HOW negative, and negative in what ways, is what we're discussing here.

Um, didn't you read thmilin's last paragraph?
So there. Porn isn't evil


Geez, I get slaughter every time I make a comment 'round here.:rolleyes:

[Yoda]

BAD and EVIL are two different things. EVIL seems, to me, to obviously imply VERY VERY bad. Evil is a more extreme form of bad. I dunno how bad watching pornography is. I think it varies from person to person and situation to situation. I would hesitate to refer to it as "evil," though...I use that word very carefully, because I think it's a very serious word.

[The Silver Bullet]

Then stop making comments that are going to get you slaughtered, or with the (somewhat) deliberate intetion of getting slaughtered, B&W....

:rolleyes:

[B&W]

Well then, IMO it is evil.

[Yoda]

Fair enough. I can respect that. :) You may be right. And in some cases, you surely are.

[Sunfrogolin]

What? Who established it's bad or evil? Porn stimulates the economy. :laugh: Music lryics do more damage to society than porn does. Porn is gooood, unless it's the illegal kind. :blush:

[Yoda]

Well, if you want the reasons as to why it's bad, just read the posts in this thread. It's been discussed in-depth. Sure, it stimulates the economy...it stimulates other things, too...which is the whole point. :)

[B&W]

What? Who established it's bad or evil? Porn stimulates the economy. Music lryics do more damage to society than porn does. Porn is gooood, unless it's the illegal kind.

O.K., now look what you've done, I have to start refuting again and prove you wrong. :(


First of all read the Jesus' quote i posted.

Secondly, anything that you do that you would be ashamed of if Jesus knew you were doing it (which he does anyway) is sin. Which is Evil. Which is Bad.

Pornography, like homosexuality (you guys are gonna execute me for that one :laugh: ) is one of those sins that can bring down a whole society. It is sexual imorality, which opens the door to all kinds of monsters.

Read Romans Chptr 1

[Marcellus]

Originally posted by B&W


Secondly, anything that you do that you would be ashamed of if Jesus knew you were doing it (which he does anyway) is sin.



I don't believe in Jesus, anyway, so I'm not really at fault there.

And, sure, I enjoy soft-core porn. But after seeing a woman in hard core, it does affect how I perceive them, generally towards the negative. I'd rather be able to say I find a woman sexually attractive, not because of her assetts which she has to flaunt about the sceen, but because of glamour, and how they compose themselves, as well as looks.
It's very difficult to look at a porn star beyond the image they've created for themselves on the screen.

[B&W]

If you don't believe in Jesus I feel you should read C.S. Lewis' quote posted here (http://www.movieforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1931&pagenumber=2)


But porn does effect you psychologically (for the worse) and it can majorly effect your relationships. It is also addictive and can lead to things such as rape. Not for most people, but for some it does, not to mention such areas as Child porn etc.

[Yoda]

Well, that's true, B&W, but it's so rare that it's hardly worth mentioning. Anyway, I don't think you need to believe in Jesus to find it wrong...or even God. I think it's so obviously negative. And I would definitely concur with Marcellus: the more blatant...the more explicit...the more effect I think it has. Just my opinion.

[Sunfrogolin]

Whaat? How does porn affect your perception of women in general? You percieve the actress in a negative way, but are you saying you think the checkout girl at the supermarket is a little strumpet cuz you watched a movie?

Jesus stuff: I don't agree that comitting adultry in the heart is the same as doing it for real. That doesn't make sense. If I already thought about it and commited the sin why shouldn't I go ahead and do it? I already got a mark against me for it. Biblically speaking pornography is probably a big sin, what with all that happened at Sodom & Gamorrah and all. But watching two girls eat salad isn't any different than watching two girls eat a Kit Kat. It doesn't make me want to go out and rob candy stores.

Speaking of sinning in the heart, how many movies have we watched where we wanted the bad guy to die at the end? And we were like, kill 'im! Kill that *******! Did we commit murder in our hearts? That means we're all going to hell.

[Yoda]

No offense, Sun, but that post is LITTERED with misinformation.

Whaat? How does porn affect your perception of women in general? You percieve the actress in a negative way, but are you saying you think the checkout girl at the supermarket is a little strumpet cuz you watched a movie?
You don't think watching people have sex cheapens the act?

Jesus stuff: I don't agree that comitting adultry in the heart is the same as doing it for real. That doesn't make sense. If I already thought about it and commited the sin why shouldn't I go ahead and do it?
Because that'd be like doing it AGAIN. And murdering twice is worse than murdering once.

Speaking of sinning in the heart, how many movies have we watched where we wanted the bad guy to die at the end? And we were like, kill 'im! Kill that *******! Did we commit murder in our hearts? That means we're all going to hell.
There are several mistakes here. One, The Bible does not say it is a sin to wish for someone else to die. Sometimes that's justice. Secondly, it's not the actual person we're wishing death upon. It's a fictional character. Third, no one said that was okay either. Fourth, The Bible only referred to adultery, as far as I know, in that sense. Thinking about wanting pizza is not "eating pizza in your heart." You can't take that one verse and substitute "adultery" for any other word you want.

Fifth, who said it meant you're going to hell? That's the whacked out stuff that bothers me...when some opponent of religion or something says "oh yeah, sure, believe in God? Believe I'm going to hell for stubbing my toe and swearing?" Who on earth ever told you sin equaled eternal damnation?

[B&W]

Sex was a gift from God to Marriage. When it is outside of wedlock it doesn't receive God's blessing.



I don't agree that comitting adultry in the heart is the same as doing it for real.
O,k, it's easier to give a murder example.
If you murder someone you will have adverse consequences.
When you hate someone, you will get different kinds of consequences (American History X for e.g.).
It's kind of hard to explain. But sexual purity is only accomplished if you remain sexually pure in all your ways, including your thoughts.

I already got a mark against me for it.
Ah, so what, you wanna make the mark bigger?
Read the Bible!




Speaking of sinning in the heart, how many movies have we watched where we wanted the bad guy to die at the end? And we were like, kill 'im! Kill that *******! Did we commit murder in our hearts? That means we're all going to hell.

Read this post (http://www.movieforums.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=39374#post39374) here. (The long one about God's offer on page 3.

[B&W]

"But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes." - 1st John 2:11

[sadesdrk]

Originally posted by Sunfrogolin
Biblically speaking pornography is probably a big sin, what with all that happened at Sodom & Gamorrah and all. Just so you know, Sun, God sees all sin the same. Biblically speaking. No sin is bigger than another. It's a human charactoristic to catagorize sin into "small" sin and "big" sin. We don't want to think of ourselves in the same boat with Jeoffery Dahmer, but, well...we are. The difference is repentance. I hear he accepted Christ in jail, so...how does that sit with you. I'll tell you what I think...he still sucks in my book, good thing I'm not God.

Anyhoo...

I'm sure Matt didn't think this would turn into another God debate, but we ARE talking about moral right and wrong, so it was bound to come up.
God convicts each and every one of us on different things, in different ways. I could sit in a bar and have a couple of drinks and not feel the least out of bounds. An alcholic, however, would definately feel the conviction. Maybe it's this way with porn. Maybe I can sit and watch it, and it passes right through. Maybe for someone else, it effects them in a whole different way.

[Sunfrogolin]

To Twtty:
Hmm.. good point. Upon further thinking, I do think it cheapens the act. In today's world it's pretty cheap already tho, and music videos and songs do more damage.

You can't murder somebody twice.

Why can't I substitute any word I want for adultry? Why should sinning in the heart only apply to adultry? Coveting is a sin of the mind also isn't it? Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods.

If you murder someone I'm pretty sure you go to hell. I'm almost 100% sure. I'm not freaking out. That's a big one.

To B&W:
Me and my mom argue about this all the time. Thoughts are not sins. What was that long post about? I don't like to argue about religion because I don't agree with a lot of things and I'm afraid my arguments are too logical. Better the man had never been born that turns away one of my flock and all.

But speaking of "Read the Bible!" Read Leviticus 20:10 and keep reading, 'specially Leviticus 20:13. It's pretty interesting. That's why pornography is evil.

But it still doesn't make me want to go out and rape people. :rolleyes:

[Yoda]

You can't murder somebody twice.
No, but you can commit murder twice. The murder thing is just an analogy.

Why can't I substitute any word I want for adultry? Why should sinning in the heart only apply to adultry? Coveting is a sin of the mind also isn't it? Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods.
Because you can't tweak The Bible to your liking, that's why. Maybe you can substitute words, but you have no reason to believe you can right now. Coveting is indeed a sin...but I don't see how that applies here.

If you murder someone I'm pretty sure you go to hell. I'm almost 100% sure. I'm not freaking out. That's a big one.
I completely disagree. I don't think one single act like that can forever damn you regardless of reformation.

Me and my mom argue about this all the time. Thoughts are not sins. What was that long post about? I don't like to argue about religion because I don't agree with a lot of things and I'm afraid my arguments are too logical. Better the man had never been born that turns away one of my flock and all.
Thoughts are not sins? How do you figure that, when all sin starts with a thought of some sort anyway?

I agree in one MINOR way: that your actions are more important, usually (not ALWAYS, mind you) than your thoughts. It is more important to treat people kindly than think of them well, because the latter you have more control over.

[sadesdrk]

Originally posted by Sunfrogolin
If you murder someone I'm pretty sure you go to hell. I'm almost 100% sure. I'm not freaking out. That's a big one.

Says who! What the hell are you thinking, Sun? You don't make the rules; that job is left entirely up to God...that is the most blatant display of judgement I have ever witnessed. I hope you change your ways before you're measured with the same stick you hold up to everyone else.

[Sunfrogolin]

Whaat? Everyone knows murder is a mortal sin. What are you guys talking about? You didn't say anything about reformation Twt, you said I was a religious fanatic cuz I said if you murder someone you go to hell. And you do, unless you repent. :D The key is, you really have to be sorry about it. Not sorry that you got caught, sorry you killed someone.

If thought sins can be lusting after the neighbor's wife, coveting his riding lawn mower, job, car, and daughter, why isn't it a sin to cuss your mom and pop in your head? You dishonored your mother and father in thought. If every thought can be sinfull then when you DON'T do it does that mean you repented? So everyone is sinning and repenting all day long? Obviously, if you really wanted to do it, you would have, but you didn't so that means it's a good repent.

Where did all sins are the same weight come from? There are veneal sins and mortal sins. In fact, thought sins come in three catagories:
delectatio morosa, i.e. the pleasure taken in a sinful thought or imagination even without desiring it;
gaudium, i.e. dwelling with complacency on sins already committed; and
desiderium, i.e. the desire for what is sinful.

Sorry, i get defensive when people tell me to Read the Bible! :p

P.S. This is off topic but I was trying to say that porn is evil but not bad :D

[Yoda]

Whaat? Everyone knows murder is a mortal sin. What are you guys talking about? You didn't say anything about reformation Twt, you said I was a religious fanatic cuz I said if you murder someone you go to hell. And you do, unless you repent. :D The key is, you really have to be sorry about it. Not sorry that you got caught, sorry you killed someone.
The "unless you repent" part cannot be ommitted. It is crucial. Murder is a sin. We don't know what God's Sin Chart looks like. We don't know what is worst. All we know is that all sin is bad, all should be avoided and acknowledged for what it is, and all sin can be forgiven. ALL sin.

If thought sins can be lusting after the neighbor's wife, coveting his riding lawn mower, job, car, and daughter, why isn't it a sin to cuss your mom and pop in your head? You dishonored your mother and father in thought. If every thought can be sinfull then when you DON'T do it does that mean you repented? So everyone is sinning and repenting all day long? Obviously, if you really wanted to do it, you would have, but you didn't so that means it's a good repent.
Yes! Cussing out your parents in your head is a sin. And you're right, we're all sinning constantly. CONSTANTLY. That's the whole point. :)

Where did all sins are the same weight come from? There are veneal sins and mortal sins. In fact, thought sins come in three catagories:
delectatio morosa, i.e. the pleasure taken in a sinful thought or imagination even without desiring it;
gaudium, i.e. dwelling with complacency on sins already committed; and
desiderium, i.e. the desire for what is sinful.

Sorry, i get defensive when people tell me to Read the Bible! :p
Those are just various ways of sinning. There is no guide to tell us which sins are worse than others. Therefore, we shouldn't bother acting as if there is. We can make our guesses, and do our best, but we should not mistake our judgements for truth.

[sadesdrk]

I WAS replying, but then I thought," There is no way I'm going to beat Chris to it, so why try?" :) You said everything, Chris...I was going to quote scripture, but there's a lot of non-believers here...so I'd rather rationalize things the best way I can in my own words.


Sun,
God's ways are not our own. You can't put him in a neat little package and lable it "God". We won't know everything he is capable of, even how he can forgive a serial killer. He just can.

[Sunfrogolin]

St Thomas Aquinas said.. Waaa! I sound like one of those movie nerds!!
You can read all about sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) here. It's too long for me, I have a short attention span. I'm gonna go rent Himalaya. :devil:

[patti]

Originally posted by thmilin
A man watching a woman be debased is going to give him WHAT point of view of women? That its ok to be debased. That she WANTS to be a slut and used for someone else's pleasure and that a woman he DESIRES (sexually) should fulfill whatever fantasies of what a desirable woman IS from the idea he's gotten from porn, friends, mags, tv, movies, etc.


thmilin......per usual, you are very thorough and clear when you climb up on the soapbox. you cover a lot of territory and do it succinctly. bravo, please continue to do so.
i quoted one paragraph that describes a concern i have with porn. i have others but it can be the SUBTLE effects that do the most harm.



p.s. i know practically nothing about porn but i know a couple people who's lives have been seriously damaged because of pornography addictions. a friend told me the levels of dopamine in the brain while watching porn equal or exceed the levels reached from using coke!!!......

[B&W]

If you murder someone I'm pretty sure you go to hell. I'm almost 100% sure. I'm not freaking out. That's a big one. You didn't say anything about reformation Twt, you said I was a religious fanatic cuz I said if you murder someone you go to hell. And you do, unless you repent.

A murdering, lying, rapist, pedophile racist homosexual can go to heaven as soon as he asks God's forgiveness (because of the immense power of Jesus' death, burial and ressurection. If Hitler had done this (turned his life over to Christ and started living for him) he would have gone to Heaven because in God's eyes, he would have done no sins.

[Yoda]

Hmmm, are you sure that's true, B&W? I thought, in God's eyes, he would have been forgiven...but it would not be ignored as if it did not exist, or never happened. It would not be erased, merely excused...pardoned, basically.

[B&W]

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.


I am sure of it TWT. I could give you a really big reason why. But come on, I think it's obvious that i know my Bible (well more than anyone else around here).

[Sullivan]

Pornography offends me deeply.

Pornographers.......the people who produce it and aid in its manufacture and dissemination.....are not safe around me.

[Yoda]

Cleansing you of sin does not mean the sin never existed.

[Sir Toose]

Originally posted by B&W
But come on, I think it's obvious that i know my Bible (well more than anyone else around here).

I think it's quite obvious that you have memorized the words but have yet to internalize the meaning of those words.

[B&W]

I think it's quite obvious that you have memorized the words but have yet to internalize the meaning of those words.
I don't know everthing about Christianity because that would be impossible. But I do know the meaning of the words, make no mistake.


Cleansing you of sin does not mean the sin never existed.
Of course it doesn't, but it does mean we can go on living with the assurance that God will not remember our sins when we die (if we're proper believers).

If I were to jump off a cliff and half why down I realised how big a mistake i'd made and asked God to forgive me, He would forgive me. Then SPLAT! gravity would take in.

[Yoda]

What leads you to believe we will "forget" about our sins, B&W? Forget about them, in the sense that they will not dog us and drown us in sorrow, yes...but forget they actually happened? No, no way. Our memories are not erased when entering the Kingdom of God.

Anyway, this thread is way off-topic. We've got two other threads to talk about God already.

[sadesdrk]

Originally posted by Toose


I think it's quite obvious that you have memorized the words but have yet to internalize the meaning of those words. It's true, B&W. God says we will give an account of our lives. Head knowledge doesn't impress me much, and you don't speak the truth in love, B&W, you sound a little presumptious and boastful.

[B&W]

B&W, you sound a little presumptious and boastful.
Thus says the LORD, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; but let him who boasts, boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice, and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD. Jer 9:23-24 :yup:





What leads you to believe we will "forget" about our sins, B&W? Forget about them, in the sense that they will not dog us and drown us in sorrow, yes...but forget they actually happened? No, no way. Our memories are not erased when entering the Kingdom of God.
It's not us who forgets it, it is God.

God says in the Bible, "I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins" (Isaiah 43:25 Heb. 8:12; 10:17). :cool:




Head knowledge doesn't impress me much, and you don't speak the truth in love
Well I mean to then (speak in love). :(

[Yoda]

B&W: quoting The Bible will almost never convince someone who does not believe. It is when they believe that The Bible usually becomes a prescence and a force. I'm not saying that's good, but that's the way it is. Most people ignore Biblical quotations...they'd rather have someone speaking their language. I don't think these methods are getting anywhere...

[OG-]

Originally posted by TWTCommish

You don't think watching people have sex cheapens the act?


By the same logic watching a baseball game would thus make playing baseball less fun; or watching a fishing show would ruin fishing for you because the act of fishing has been cheapened for you.

Porn is nothing more than an adventure show on the discovery channel. Say your an overweight, out-of-shape couch potato watching a show on people who climb mt. Everest, or a show on people that bungie jump from helicopters. Their never going to be able to do those things, but watching other people do it can acquiese their want to do it, soothe it away.

Porn is the exact same thing as an extreme adventure show, or a baseball game, or a fishing show, or a cooking show. Conceptually they have no difference; their made to attend to someones want to do those things. Shun porn and you might as well shun yourself anytime you watch a show on extremes; whether it be a fishing, cooking, or nature show.

Saying it is EVIL, or even BAD is pretty dumb in my opinion. I'd rather have someone addicted to porn living next to someone, then a serial rapist who attacks because he doesn't get his fill somewhere else. Porn is just a catalyst, its made to appeal to a personal want, not to desensitize society and create a bunch of sex-driven robots.

Only porn I can object to would be any sort of snuff films. Don't know what I'm talking about, rent 8mm (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0134273).

If it hurt the actors, they wouldn't do it - simple enough. So to say it does hurt them without ever having done it yourself, is a hollow statement. Theoretically it could be degrading or such, but untill you've done porn, don't try to say whether it really is or not.

I'm fine with porn, perosnally don't see what the big deal is. censor porn and you should censor the Discovery Channel in my opinion.

[Yoda]

By the same logic watching a baseball game would thus make playing baseball less fun; or watching a fishing show would ruin fishing for you because the act of fishing has been cheapened for you.
And by that same logic, sex should be given the same degree of seriouness and reverence as a baseball game or fishing...is that right? Sex is nothing more than another (hopefully) in-door activity?

Saying it is EVIL, or even BAD is pretty dumb in my opinion. I'd rather have someone addicted to porn living next to someone, then a serial rapist who attacks because he doesn't get his fill somewhere else. Porn is just a catalyst, its made to appeal to a personal want, not to desensitize society and create a bunch of sex-driven robots.
Wait...because it's not as bad as being a serial rapist, it's dumb to call it bad? It doesn't matter what it is MADE to do...it matters more what it does. And what it does is cheapen sex.

If it hurt the actors, they wouldn't do it - simple enough. So to say it does hurt them without ever having done it yourself, is a hollow statement. Theoretically it could be degrading or such, but untill you've done porn, don't try to say whether it really is or not.
That's ridiculous. Would you express the same sentiment when it comes to drugs? If drugs hurt people, they wouldn't use them, by that logic. And by that logic, I can't claim that getting drunk or high is at all bad, because I've never tried it.

I'm fine with porn, perosnally don't see what the big deal is. censor porn and you should censor the Discovery Channel in my opinion.
I don't think anyone said anything about censorship. This is merely a debate on its pros and cons. I don't recall even a single person saying it should be outlawed or "censored."

[thmilin]

don't be mad, og, but I think you have already done what I complained porn contributes to. if sex has become an adventure show to YOU ... then I think, ahem, you're looking at a diamond and calling it a rock. In some respect, I agree -- OTHERS make it so plentiful it exists in the media world AS a graphic RealTV show. That is how it is TREATED - being treated as so much trash doesn't make sex trash. Being treated as so much trash makes sex PORN. Human lives of "quiet desperation" become jokes, laughs, annoyance, pathetic, humorous, when seen on Judge Judy, Ricki Lake, Cops, etc. But that doesn't mean those people's lives are meaningless or unimportant. Or any less special than the person watching, no matter how tempted we are to look down on them because WE aren't exposed on tv.

now, to other points ...

baseball vs. porn porn is the PUBLICATION (in all senses of the word) of a PRIVATE act. baseball was originally conceived and intended as a PUBLIC act. you play with other team members. even if it's only two teams versus each other - that's a field of players watching each other. Sport, by nature, is public. People cheer each other on. Sex, however, was intended to be done with those you care about for three things alone - love, lust, and babies. Money, publicity, and social power had nothing to do with it.

When we say "cheapens" - we don't say it makes it less "fun." It means you no longer VALUE it like you used to. Oh, you'll still do it. But you may feel just that little bit LESS that it's meaningful. Cuz you've seen 500 other people do it. For example, cell phones. Or, for Rusell Crowe, people who win Oscars.

Just say this. If you love a girl, and get engaged, then find out she made a porn film - knowing that alone, how do you feel about the girl?? Then, you SEE her making the porn film. You either 1) see her enjoying the crap out of it with a total stranger or lets say, FIVE strangers or 2) see her NOT enjoying it and doing it anyway ... for whatever reasons. Do you still smile and marry the girl without a qualm? Or do you freak and have it out with her and question or moral strength, or loyalty, her love, her VALUE to you as a being you both DESIRE and love? Will you forever think about how happy she was to have other men touch her in places that were supposed to be YOURS? Will you say, she didn't care, she's a slut, she's worthless? Whether or not you forgive her you will NEVER look at her the same way again.

That's bringing porn close to home. But let's say you've got a brother addicted to porn who can't have relationships because all he wants to do is jack off in his hideaway. He can't relate socially. He can only relate to sex, and he can only do that alone with a tv in the dark. If he relates to a woman, it's only in that she is the physical manifestation of what he desires on tv. He will most likely freak her out or disgust her with how he treats her, whether it's overly reverent or overly lecherous. Now. You see how he treats women. You see how he can't get over the porn. How do you treat HIM? Pretty much as you'd treat an alcoholic who smacks his wife around. I'm not saying I trip at people who watch porn period or even who are IN it. I'm saying the industry's existence is based out of a flawed morality and that OVER indulgence in the product will flaw your own morality. ANY indulgence at ALL will ALTER how you see sex and women/men (whether you're male or female).

Say your an overweight, out-of-shape couch potato watching a show on people who climb mt. Everest, or a show on people that bungie jump from helicopters. Their never going to be able to do those things, but watching other people do it can acquiese their want to do it, soothe it away.

These people could d@mn well do these things, but they choose to stay home, believe they can't, and insist on living vicariously. No one said you couldn't go sky-diving or have sex. If anything sex, as we've agreed, is VERY accessible. And no matter what your fetish you can DEFINITELY find someone within 50 miles who likes to do it, too. If you're going to spend hundreds of dollars to watch a beautiful blonde bang another beautiful blonde why not go hire one? At least you're doing it for real. Sheesh.

Shun porn and you might as well shun yourself anytime you watch a show on extremes; whether it be a fishing, cooking, or nature show.

I say you don't shun yourself if you're out there, as I said above, DOING it rather than WATCHING it. NOT watching tv or anything does not shun human nature at all. NOT watching just encourages NOT distancing yourself from human nature, which is a good thing. If you don't watch a cooking show you'll cook it yourself rather than wish you could. Etc. Then again, like i said - that doesn't mean moderation or a proper handle on things isn't helpful. Watching Martha Stewart regularly to get her ideas on things that you then apply to your own home is fine. Watching some porn with your lover and saying HEY! I wanna do that! Is cool, too.

Porn is just a catalyst, its made to appeal to a personal want, not to desensitize society and create a bunch of sex-driven robots.

OK, this was the real clincher for me here. Porn is a PRODUCT of catalyst and a catalyst in its own right, whatever the subtle repercussions. 1. Sexual desire in mankind and capitalist enterprise has encouraged an industry that produces porn. 2. People watch the porn, which in turn causes ... whatever. Teenage boys who bang first, ask later, who feel disgust when a girl DOESN'T want to drop to her knees for a servicing, etc. Men who can't live in the outside world. Girls who think encouraging looking at their chest first makes them more of a woman and a better, more desirable, successful person. etc.

Porn is made to turn you on and feed your dirty fantasies. Porn's VERY EXISTENCE desensitizes society. It doesn't matter what the intent is. It doesn't matter if Ron Jeremy just wants to get himself and his buddies off and he means you no harm and just wants you to have fun and dish out some of your dollars. Sure, you ENJOY yourself. You don't feel hurt at all. Neither does the chick in bed with you. But by the very film's existence, by the mass production of sex, sex BECOMES mainstream. It becomes money. It becomes financial power. It becomes COMMON AS A PENNY. This is the EXACT same rule for violence, etc, seen on tv and in movies. Music, tv, etc. Everywhere. EVERYWHERE. The base parts of man are becoming COMMON and industry is making MONEY off of it and making the base parts of man MORE common. The intent is not: Let's make the world sicker! It's: Let's make money and who cares if the world gets sicker but hey, the sicker it gets, the more money we make! What the world is not getting is it's the snake eating its tail. The sicker we get, the hungrier for sicker things, for violence, for sex. Until we end up destroying ourselves WITH the greed and base appetites (sex, violence) that we were so busy exploiting.

If it hurt the actors, they wouldn't do it - simple enough. So to say it does hurt them without ever having done it yourself, is a hollow statement. Theoretically it could be degrading or such, but untill you've done porn, don't try to say whether it really is or not.

Um. Ok, so if you rode a bike and said it made you tired, I won't take your word for it then that bike riding makes a person tired. This isn't complete speculation, dude. We all know people who watch porn or watch it ourselves and I happen to know a guy at my job who entered our company FROM the porn industry. It is not in some land far away with a language we don't speak. And like I said, I read interviews and not only that, saw interviews. Howard stern friggin broadcasts his! Girls will say, yeah, they make us do X and it hurts and I'm sore for 5 days after, but hey, they pay us 10,000 for a day's work on that! Or, yeah, some of the men ain't so hot but you get a fluffer and you moan and pretend and the guy gets off, and you're done! Or, yeah, I've got SuperHerpes 1000 now!

It DOES hurt them. They've said so and I believe them. I've seen the product of what they do. I've seen them at work. And I know that kind of work AIN'T healthy. Those women get burnt out. Men, too. It'd be like if your boss yelled and insulted you every day but you needed the $$ and didn't want to leave it. You take it. Millions of people do this every day, no matter what industry they're in, no matter WHAT it is going on in their lives. but here, these women are peddling their bodies, to an industry that favors men. and everyone is watching. and they know it. there is nothing more harmful then making what is UNIQUE to you and you alone become something EVERYONE can have in their tv, in slowmo, that EVERYONE can dream of, make fun of, belittle their girlfriend because she doesn't match it, or expect other women to try and match. there is nothing more harmful than a society that encourages the mass production and USE of one person's body so that all the world can share it.

We all agree, there are fine lines. I think some women are MADE to be prostitutes. Others are MADE to be porn stars. But we are still going overboard. Just like we complain that we can't find any good movies at the multiplex because we're being flooded with trash, because movies are an industry. They feed off junk stories. And they have some negative societal byproduct. So now what happens when the industry feeds off PEOPLE - what kind of byproduct comes out of it, then?

...

thanks, patti, much appreciated. i agree, it's the subtle ways. basically, this is a snowball at the top of a mountain. by the time it's done, it's gonna be big and looking for something to crush.

[OG-]

Originally posted by TWTCommish

And by that same logic, sex should be given the same degree of seriouness and reverence as a baseball game or fishing...is that right? Sex is nothing more than another (hopefully) in-door activity?

Well I guess you just give more reverence to fishing than I do. Sex and fishing are just activites, take them as serious as you want. To me, sex IS an activity, however making love is not. I distinguish between the two. Making love is serious to me (just as is sex) but while both are activites, one actually does hold more reverence in my book (making love). And to define the difference, sex is the phyiscial act of reproduction (regardless of whether or not it results in a product) and making love is the same act plus a number of different emotions. Now that is just a personal opinion, and one I can bet I share with very few other posters.

Wait...because it's not as bad as being a serial rapist, it's dumb to call it bad? It doesn't matter what it is MADE to do...it matters more what it does. And what it does is cheapen sex.

Can't argue this point, because I'd be arguing nothing since I don't think it is bad. But I do question you to tell me what it "is MADE to do".

That's ridiculous. Would you express the same sentiment when it comes to drugs? If drugs hurt people, they wouldn't use them, by that logic. And by that logic, I can't claim that getting drunk or high is at all bad, because I've never tried it.

Drugs have an obvious physical sideffect that is almost always a negative one, I don't think anyone would argue that point. Drugs may weaken your body, but if it expands the mind of the user is it really hurting THEM? If your not the user, you can't say. You can be a doctor examining a user and point out all the negative things use has on their body, that you can establish, but to say it is hurting them is a call made only on the user. What I consider hurting them, they may consider saving them.

I don't think anyone said anything about censorship. This is merely a debate on its pros and cons. I don't recall even a single person saying it should be outlawed or "censored."

And I don't recall having made that statement in response to anything, so whats your point? I was just stating something, not responding to anyone elses statments.

[Yoda]

Well I guess you just give more reverence to fishing than I do. Sex and fishing are just activites, take them as serious as you want. To me, sex IS an activity, however making love is not. I distinguish between the two. Making love is serious to me (just as is sex) but while both are activites, one actually does hold more reverence in my book (making love). And to define the difference, sex is the phyiscial act of reproduction (regardless of whether or not it results in a product) and making love is the same act plus a number of different emotions. Now that is just a personal opinion, and one I can bet I share with very few other posters.
No, I don't give reverence to fishing...that's the point. Sex is so far apart from that it's nearly funny. I see the distinction between sex and making love. Though there SHOULDN'T be one, because all sex should be making love, IMO. Anyway, my point is the same, regardless: no, it's nothing like baseball or fishing...sex is more serious than that. At least, I think it is. I can't speak for you, but I'd surely hope you feel the same way.

Can't argue this point, because I'd be arguing nothing since I don't think it is bad. But I do question you to tell me what it "is MADE to do".
I'm afraid I don't understand your question...

Drugs have an obvious physical sideffect that is almost always a negative one, I don't think anyone would argue that point. Drugs may weaken your body, but if it expands the mind of the user is it really hurting THEM? If your not the user, you can't say. You can be a doctor examining a user and point out all the negative things use has on their body, that you can establish, but to say it is hurting them is a call made only on the user. What I consider hurting them, they may consider saving them.
You're missing the point: what about someone completely strung out on crack, constantly violent? The point is that saying "they wouldn't do it if it were hurting them" is ridiculous. People do things that hurt them all the time.

If you want to get technical, no one can ever claim ANYTHING is bad, because they can never be an identical situation. But reasonably, I don't think it makes much sense to act as if none of us have any insight into any of this simply because we haven't, say, acted in a pornographic movie ourselves.

And I don't recall having made that statement in response to anything, so whats your point? I was just stating something, not responding to anyone elses statments.
Simply seemed out of place. You won't find any argument from me on the censorship issue, though; it should definitely be allowed.

[Sullivan]

Originally posted by OG-

Sex and fishing are just activites, take them as serious as you want. To me, sex IS an activity, however making love is not. I distinguish between the two.


If you think you can, you're fooling yourself.

[OG-]

Originally posted by thmilin

baseball vs. porn porn is the PUBLICATION (in all senses of the word) of a PRIVATE act. baseball was originally conceived and intended as a PUBLIC act. you play with other team members. even if it's only two teams versus each other - that's a field of players watching each other. Sport, by nature, is public. People cheer each other on. Sex, however, was intended to be done with those you care about for three things alone - love, lust, and babies. Money, publicity, and social power had nothing to do with it.


"Sex, however, was intended to be done with those you care about for three things alone - love, lust, and babies. Money, publicity, and social power had nothing to do with it." I'm guessing you came up with these intentions when sex was invented? It wasn't invented, its a natural act; I mean you can say what the intentions of a commericalized product are, but sex? If it is such a private act why did the Greek have public steamhouses where orgies were encouraged? Why was the Kama Sutra a religious text in India? Why was it public taught in China that oral sex would make your skin stay smooth? The Dobe Ju/ho'ansi of Africa teach sex to their children when they are 7, they allow them to watch while they make love. Sex is a very public thing in the Ju society, children are encouraged to experiement when they are young. The Ju society is also one of few egalitarian societies still living today (even though it is dying).

Sex isn't private and it isn't public, it is an activity. The society in which it is practiced defines any attributes of it. The U.S. has made it a private thing, and not only that but socially shunned. Which is also why the U.S. has such a large account of sexual problems (rape). Look at the Ju, who make it public; not one case EVER of rape or sexual assault. Sex isn't anything on its own, its what people make it, and people in the U.S. (and MANY other societies) have made it something your not supposed to talk about. It's nor private or public, it is an activity, PEOPLE make it out to be anything else it "is". There was no love "intention", no lust "intention", only that last "intention"; making babies.

Just say this. If you love a girl, and get engaged, then find out she made a porn film - knowing that alone, how do you feel about the girl?? Then, you SEE her making the porn film. You either 1) see her enjoying the crap out of it with a total stranger or lets say, FIVE strangers or 2) see her NOT enjoying it and doing it anyway ... for whatever reasons. Do you still smile and marry the girl without a qualm? Or do you freak and have it out with her and question or moral strength, or loyalty, her love, her VALUE to you as a being you both DESIRE and love? Will you forever think about how happy she was to have other men touch her in places that were supposed to be YOURS? Will you say, she didn't care, she's a slut, she's worthless? Whether or not you forgive her you will NEVER look at her the same way again.

I'd still marry her. If I'm not going to care whether or not shes had sex before, why should I care whether or not it was caught on tape.

That's bringing porn close to home. But let's say you've got a brother addicted to porn who can't have relationships because all he wants to do is jack off in his hideaway. He can't relate socially. He can only relate to sex, and he can only do that alone with a tv in the dark. If he relates to a woman, it's only in that she is the physical manifestation of what he desires on tv. He will most likely freak her out or disgust her with how he treats her, whether it's overly reverent or overly lecherous. Now. You see how he treats women. You see how he can't get over the porn. How do you treat HIM? Pretty much as you'd treat an alcoholic who smacks his wife around. I'm not saying I trip at people who watch porn period or even who are IN it. I'm saying the industry's existence is based out of a flawed morality and that OVER indulgence in the product will flaw your own morality. ANY indulgence at ALL will ALTER how you see sex and women/men (whether you're male or female).

Thats a personal problem, and while I'm no psychologist, I'm pretty sure that type of problem does not stem from watching porn, but stems from much deeper circumstances. That's like saying violent movies and violent video games make violent people. What violent movie did Hitler watch? What violent video game did Jack the Ripper play?

These people could d@mn well do these things, but they choose to stay home, believe they can't, and insist on living vicariously. No one said you couldn't go sky-diving or have sex. If anything sex, as we've agreed, is VERY accessible. And no matter what your fetish you can DEFINITELY find someone within 50 miles who likes to do it, too. If you're going to spend hundreds of dollars to watch a beautiful blonde bang another beautiful blonde why not go hire one? At least you're doing it for real. Sheesh.

A person with a bad case of down syndrome can't do those things. Its not that they "could damn well do these things", they CAN'T. If you follow the idea that porn is bad because you could be having sex, but instead your watching people have sex, then don't ever have a fantasy again in your life. Don't go read a book about something you've never done and enjoy it, because you could go be doing it yourself.

Watching Martha Stewart regularly to get her ideas on things that you then apply to your own home is fine. Watching some porn with your lover and saying HEY! I wanna do that! Is cool, too.

Ah so porn is only okay if watched with good intentions, good to know.

OK, this was the real clincher for me here. Porn is a PRODUCT of catalyst and a catalyst in its own right, whatever the subtle repercussions. 1. Sexual desire in mankind and capitalist enterprise has encouraged an industry that produces porn. 2. People watch the porn, which in turn causes ... whatever. Teenage boys who bang first, ask later, who feel disgust when a girl DOESN'T want to drop to her knees for a servicing, etc. Men who can't live in the outside world. Girls who think encouraging looking at their chest first makes them more of a woman and a better, more desirable, successful person. etc.

I can honestly tell you with a smile on my face that I've seen porn, and a fair amount of it. Call me a bad person, or whatever. I can also honestly tell you with a smile on my face that I'm a virgin. I can also honestly tell you with a smile on my face that even after having watched porn multipile times I've turned down sex. If porn caused people to be sex crazed, I wouldn't of said no. Call me a rare case if you want, but I don't buy it. Thats back to the case of whether or not violent movies make violent people.

No two people are the same. Porn can make you WANT to do things, but if you actually follow through then that is a result of something else, and thats a problem rooted within that individual and like I said before its probably not related to having seen some porn.

It DOES hurt them. They've said so and I believe them. I've seen the product of what they do. I've seen them at work. And I know that kind of work AIN'T healthy. Those women get burnt out. Men, too. It'd be like if your boss yelled and insulted you every day but you needed the $$ and didn't want to leave it. You take it. Millions of people do this every day, no matter what industry they're in, no matter WHAT it is going on in their lives. but here, these women are peddling their bodies, to an industry that favors men. and everyone is watching. and they know it. there is nothing more harmful then making what is UNIQUE to you and you alone become something EVERYONE can have in their tv, in slowmo, that EVERYONE can dream of, make fun of, belittle their girlfriend because she doesn't match it, or expect other women to try and match. there is nothing more harmful than a society that encourages the mass production and USE of one person's body so that all the world can share it.

Then I have no respect for a person who willingly does something that hurts them. Don't tell me they couldn't get another job. Go watch Resevoir Dogs and Mr. Pinks speech on tiping; if they want that extra money get a better job. Why should I feel the need to support them even further? If its hurting you, don't ****ing do it. That whole concept really pisses me off. Thats a lesson you should of learned the first time you got burned; if the coal is still hot don't go wrap your hand around it.

However for a clarification, I do tip. I agree with Mr. Pinks statement on tiping, its something society created, but I don't follow through with it. I have respect for people, I have empathy, and there hasn't been a single time I haven't tiped. But thats off topic; if it hurts then just don't do it, go get another job.

I'm afraid I don't understand your question...
I'm just curious as to what your idea of what porn is MADE to do, and what it actually does do.

You're missing the point: what about someone completely strung out on crack, constantly violent? The point is that saying "they wouldn't do it if it were hurting them" is ridiculous. People do things that hurt them all the time.

Just see above. Don't keep putting your hand in the fire if it hurts, shoulda learned the first time it hurt not to do it again.

Originally posted by Sullivan
If you think you can, you're fooling yourself.

Is there a reason why you feel I'm not able to?

[Sullivan]

Originally posted by OG-

Is there a reason why you feel I'm not able to?

Yeah. You're a virgin.

Hard to make distinctions about things you've never done, isn't it?

[Yoda]

If it is such a private act why did the Greek have public steamhouses where orgies were encouraged? Why was the Kama Sutra a religious text in India? Why was it public taught in China that oral sex would make your skin stay smooth? The Dobe Ju/ho'ansi of Africa teach sex to their children when they are 7, they allow them to watch while they make love. Sex is a very public thing in the Ju society, children are encouraged to experiement when they are young. The Ju society is also one of few egalitarian societies still living today (even though it is dying).
First off, I think she's saying that it SHOULD be a private act. Not that it always is. Secondly, several of those examples are not about the act of sex...they are about talking about it. That's different than actually doing it.

Sex isn't private and it isn't public, it is an activity. The society in which it is practiced defines any attributes of it. The U.S. has made it a private thing, and not only that but socially shunned.
I dunno what society you live in. Sex is fairly rampant around here, though. What is shunned is how casually it's become. Not sex itself. It's just not taken seriously enough by most.

Thats a personal problem, and while I'm no psychologist, I'm pretty sure that type of problem does not stem from watching porn, but stems from much deeper circumstances. That's like saying violent movies and violent video games make violent people. What violent movie did Hitler watch? What violent video game did Jack the Ripper play?
No one said it was REQUIRED. But does it contribute? Surely. A person needs to be messed up to let a video game send them on a killing spree...but, some people ARE messed up, and for some people, the video game contributes. Does that mean the game is at fault? It depends. Maybe the parents are at fault. Maybe the store is at fault for selling the game to a child. But I don't think it's fair to say that porn is only a problem for people who are messed up anyway. I think it's quite obvious that porn is capable of getting you messed up, even if, in most cases, the problem is not blatant...but more subtle.

can honestly tell you with a smile on my face that I've seen porn, and a fair amount of it. Call me a bad person, or whatever. I can also honestly tell you with a smile on my face that I'm a virgin. I can also honestly tell you with a smile on my face that even after having watched porn multipile times I've turned down sex. If porn caused people to be sex crazed, I wouldn't of said no. Call me a rare case if you want, but I don't buy it. Thats back to the case of whether or not violent movies make violent people.
And why don't you buy it? Is it so hard to believe that many boys your age in the same situation would've chosen a different path?

No two people are the same. Porn can make you WANT to do things, but if you actually follow through then that is a result of something else, and thats a problem rooted within that individual and like I said before its probably not related to having seen some porn.
So, it contributes; that's the point. America's obesity is due to two things: accessibility of food, and lack of self-control. BOTH are to blame. Food is too unhealthy, diets are too crazy in some cases, and it's all too easy to gorge yourself. Yes, people should control themselves...but it's made harder on them with that possibility there. Porn is worse, IMO, because, unlike food, any of it is bad.

I'm just curious as to what your idea of what porn is MADE to do, and what it actually does do.
It's made to get people off. What it does is that, and corrupt people, albeit slowly. Now, don't get me wrong: I'm using "corrupt" in a technical sense, which means that a little bit of porn tends to corrupt a LITTLE bit. I've no doubt it sensitizes people to sex.

Just see above. Don't keep putting your hand in the fire if it hurts, shoulda learned the first time it hurt not to do it again.
That's not what you said...you said they wouldn't do it if hurt them...which is completely untrue. Very few of us act in our own best interests consistently...we're constantly mucking things up. Every single person here does something bad for them every single day.

Yeah. You're a virgin.

Hard to make distinctions about things you've never done, isn't it?
Excellent point: if I cannot argue against pornography because I don't have much experience, why is the opposite not true? Why can someone with no experience argue in favor of it?

I'll just ask you, straight out, Peter...

1. do you think sex is sacred?
2. if not sacred, do you think it is the ultimate expression of love?
3. do you think seeing other people engage in it has absolutely, 100% no effect on how you view women? At all?

[Sunfrogolin]

Waaa! Too many words! My short attention span is overloading! :eek:

To Thimi & Patti, I'm sorry some of that stuff is just silly. I'm a man and porn doesn't make me think less of women or make me want to rape anybody. Not at all. Not even a tiny bit. I think that's just something the media says. Rape is a crime of power not lust, so they say, I don't know. That sounds kinda weird, but that's what they say, so how can you blame porn for it since rape is for power not sex. I think most rapes are not "consumated" cause it's not the main point of the crime. Not sure, but I think that's right. As for thinking less of women, seeing Jenny McCarthy nude makes me A) Want to meet Jenny McCarthy and, B) Want to meat Jenny McCarthy. Lol! :laugh: Sorry.

To B&W, you can't just say "forgive me" or "I'm sorry," it's not a magic incantation. You have to BE sorry to repent or else it doesn't work. Not sure if we're still argueing. ;)

To Sullivan, there is a difference between sex and making love. I don't know if I would say sex is like fishing tho, but boy do I have a lot of funny analogies I'd love to say. :D If you can't tell the difference I'm happy for you. That means you haven't been hurt yet by being someone's one night stand.

[Yoda]

Would you necessarily know if you thought less of women? As should be obvious to all "present," people's brains pick up on a helluva lot more than they realize. As for the rape thing: I don't think that was meant to be a major point. I've yet to see anyone here even TRY to make the case that porn is anywhere near likely to turn someone into a racist. Do you honestly think it has no negative effect on your views, though? That sex is just as important, and treated with respect just as equally if you watch two other people engage in it? Seems like definite erosion there to me...

As for the difference between "having sex" and "making love" -- I'd say that yes, there is a difference...but there SHOULDN'T be. I think Sullivan is trying to say that you can't have sex without other emotions coming up...at the very least, you'll end up pushing them under the surface in some way.

[OG-]

I dunno what society you live in. Sex is fairly rampant around here, though. What is shunned is how casually it's become. Not sex itself. It's just not taken seriously enough by most.

Regardless of whether or not its rampant, it is still the social norm in the US to shun public discussion of sex. That is the social norm, whether it is practiced or not is a different thing, but it is the norm to shun it.

And why don't you buy it? Is it so hard to believe that many boys your age in the same situation would've chosen a different path?

Actually this is pretty interesting. I was talking with a group of people the other day, all 16 or 17, and we were actually talking about porn and who has seen it. About half of the guys had, and likewise about half of the girls in the group had. Now the interesting part is that out of the people that said no, half of them have had sex and out of all that said they had none have had sex. The part I don't buy is that porn makes you have sex, because if it did all of us that had answered yes would of had sex already.

I'd say about 3 out of 4 guys I know and about 1 out of 4 girls I know are still virgins. 75% of guys are, and 25% of girls are.....that is a depressing number, but I don't think it is at all related to pronography, but is related to they way they were raised. How your father treats women will have a MUCH larger influence on how you do than porn ever will. The people who don't have the respect for women I do don't come from being addicted to porn, but from having a different childhood, which is again why I don't buy how porn makes you have sex.

That's not what you said...you said they wouldn't do it if hurt them...which is completely untrue. Very few of us act in our own best interests consistently...we're constantly mucking things up. Every single person here does something bad for them every single day.

This part is just hard for me to explain online. I didn't mean what I said the first time, I just couldn't think of another way to word it. Then I thought of Resevoir Dogs and Mr. Pinks speech. Sure everyone makes sacrifices, but don't expect me to sympathize with you for making them. People aren't helpless, they constantly amaze me at how strong they are. Porn isn't the only thing you can do, go get some sort of other job.

Excellent point: if I cannot argue against pornography because I don't have much experience, why is the opposite not true? Why can someone with no experience argue in favor of it?

If I were unable to make the distinction I wouldn't still be a virgin. Having sex is a choice, and I have made the choice more than once. Yes I seperate sex and making love, but because I haven't done either yet does not mean I can not categorize the two. I wasn't making the call for someone else, only for myself.

I'll just ask you, straight out, Peter...

1. do you think sex is sacred?
2. if not sacred, do you think it is the ultimate expression of love?
3. do you think seeing other people engage in it has absolutely, 100% no effect on how you view women? At all?


1. Yes I do, but not as highly as you. I don't feel sex before marriage is wrong, but I do believe in other constraints. There is one main reason I haven't had sex given the oppurtunity, because there was nothing more than a physical attraction between myself and those specific people. It would of been purely lust, and I'm not the type of guy that has sex just because I can. Thats like stealing because you can get away with it. It's not my style, theres gotta be more than just a physicial attraction. I wouldn't say I need to be madly in love with the person, but if there is a deffinite connection, and more than just instant pleasure resulting from it then I'll have sex. But with the opprtunities I've denied, all it was was instant pleasure.

Love is what you make it to be. The best way I can explain it is to point to something someone else has said. Read the second paragraph of this very special Penny-Aracde. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=1999-02-17&res=l) That completely sums up my feelings on love. Its like Tycho spoke straight from my mind because that is my exact, EXACT, feeling about love. Its a word that shadows an emotion but doesn't hold a candle to how I really feel, because that just can't be described.

2. No I don't think its the ultimate expression of love. The ultimate expression of love varies from person to person. If I'm in a certain relationship where the ultimate expression of love is making love, then that would be the case. But if I'm in a relationship where the ultimate expression of love is giving a ring to someone, then thats what I'd do. I actually find it kind of depressing that people feel the need to deffine an ultimate expression of love, makes everything too uniform, creating an unneccesary norm.

3. Having seen people engage in it has ABSOLUTELY no effect on my view on women, AT ALL. It takes two to tango, and last time I saw some porn, there was a women and a man in it. Whys it always about the woman? If its going to degrade my view on them, it would likewise degrade my view on the man, but neither is present. However, it may have some effect on my view on sex, but thats close to none. I've had these views on sex before I had ever seen porn, so to say it effected it is pretty weak, if anything it enforced it.

[Yoda]

Regardless of whether or not its rampant, it is still the social norm in the US to shun public discussion of sex. That is the social norm, whether it is practiced or not is a different thing, but it is the norm to shun it.
How can something be the norm if it's not practiced? What do you mean by "the norm"?

This part is just hard for me to explain online. I didn't mean what I said the first time, I just couldn't think of another way to word it. Then I thought of Resevoir Dogs and Mr. Pinks speech. Sure everyone makes sacrifices, but don't expect me to sympathize with you for making them. People aren't helpless, they constantly amaze me at how strong they are. Porn isn't the only thing you can do, go get some sort of other job.
I'm afraid I don't quite understand.

If I were unable to make the distinction I wouldn't still be a virgin. Having sex is a choice, and I have made the choice more than once. Yes I seperate sex and making love, but because I haven't done either yet does not mean I can not categorize the two. I wasn't making the call for someone else, only for myself.
Well, the discussion here and now is about not just ourselves, but everyone...and how everyone is effected by porn. Again, I think Sullivan meant that sex, by its very nature, is more than just physical. That no one TRULY has sex without emotions arising...some are just used to pushing them down again. If this is true (and I've no doubt it is), it makes perfect sense to say that watching people have sex will stir up emotions somewhat like that, too, albeit on a lower level.

1. Yes I do, but not as highly as you. I don't feel sex before marriage is wrong, but I do believe in other constraints. There is one main reason I haven't had sex given the oppurtunity, because there was nothing more than a physical attraction between myself and those specific people. It would of been purely lust, and I'm not the type of guy that has sex just because I can. Thats like stealing because you can get away with it. It's not my style, theres gotta be more than just a physicial attraction. I wouldn't say I need to be madly in love with the person, but if there is a deffinite connection, and more than just instant pleasure resulting from it then I'll have sex. But with the opprtunities I've denied, all it was was instant pleasure.
Well, I'm not going to preach about sex before marriage. For all I know I won't be able to hold out...and from what I can tell, most people don't anyway. There are obviously bigger problems to worry about.

Love is what you make it to be. The best way I can explain it is to point to something someone else has said. Read the second paragraph of this very special Penny-Aracde. That completely sums up my feelings on love. Its like Tycho spoke straight from my mind because that is my exact, EXACT, feeling about love. Its a word that shadows an emotion but doesn't hold a candle to how I really feel, because that just can't be described.
I most definitely agree. That's one of the reasons I want to be, if anything, OVERLY careful whenever possible about tainting anything I have with someone in the future. There's no way to prevent your brain from, say, comparing your wife or girlfriend, physically, to other women you've seen having sex or taking their clothes off. It's impossible.

2. No I don't think its the ultimate expression of love. The ultimate expression of love varies from person to person. If I'm in a certain relationship where the ultimate expression of love is making love, then that would be the case. But if I'm in a relationship where the ultimate expression of love is giving a ring to someone, then thats what I'd do. I actually find it kind of depressing that people feel the need to deffine an ultimate expression of love, makes everything too uniform, creating an unneccesary norm.
Well stated, I agree. Though personally I think my problem was in poor phrasing: I believe sex has been designed as the highest form of affection we humans can show each other. Just my opinion, though. I don't mean that it is the best way to show your love, period...or anything like that.

3. Having seen people engage in it has ABSOLUTELY no effect on my view on women, AT ALL. It takes two to tango, and last time I saw some porn, there was a women and a man in it. Whys it always about the woman? If its going to degrade my view on them, it would likewise degrade my view on the man, but neither is present. However, it may have some effect on my view on sex, but thats close to none. I've had these views on sex before I had ever seen porn, so to say it effected it is pretty weak, if anything it enforced it.
But how? Our brains don't divide things up into neat little compartments that never bother each other. Comparisons and impressions WILL be made and formed. There's no way around it. Being exposed to sex makes you less sensitive to it...and something you've been desensitized too is basically by definition not the big deal it once was. As a little kid, seeing someone get murdered in a movie probably shocked you...but the more you saw it, the less it shocked you, until you regarded it casually and didn't think much of it.

[Sullivan]

Originally posted by Sunfrogolin

To Sullivan, there is a difference between sex and making love. I don't know if I would say sex is like fishing tho, but boy do I have a lot of funny analogies I'd love to say. :D If you can't tell the difference I'm happy for you. That means you haven't been hurt yet by being someone's one night stand.

You're missing the point. I didn't say I can't tell the difference. I said that anyone who insists there is a difference is fooling themselves.

You think I haven't been hurt by being someone's one night stand? You sound about as sure about this as you do about sex and making love being essentially different. You really don't know, dude, and until you do it'd be cool if you didn't make assumptions.

Oh yeah, and one more thing. Maybe one-night stands wouldn't happen if people didn't insist on seperating human intimacy into "just f*cking" and "making love".

originally posted by OG
Having sex is a choice, and I have made the choice more than once. Yes I seperate sex and making love, but because I haven't done either yet does not mean I can not categorize the two.

Yeah, you can still categorize things you haven't done. Just be prepared for those categorizations to start breaking down fast, once you start doing those things.

Having seen people engage in it has ABSOLUTELY no effect on my view on women, AT ALL.

If you keep saying that, you may just convince yourself some day......but you're not gonna convince me.

It takes two to tango, and last time I saw some porn, there was a women and a man in it. Whys it always about the woman?

Gee. Maybe because you're a guy and you're straight?

If its going to degrade my view on them, it would likewise degrade my view on the man

Yeah, I'm sure you can just throw away the 2,000 images you take in on an average day that sexualize and objectify women. Likewise the patriarchal social structure that still sees male CEOs paid 2-3x more than females with comparable responsibilities.

I don't buy it. If you're living anywhere on the North American continent, you're already neck-deep in a sociological dynamic that has taught you, from birth, that women are pretty baubels that are good for fondling.

It's great that you haven't acted in congruence with the social norms by submitting to these messages and knocking up a random chick or three-- I'm glad you haven't, good job, keep it up --but consuming porn in any capacity, with any result, is an implicit communication that you fully support the objectification of women in all its ugly forms.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I want to voice my honest thoughts on porn here...

I don't have any hangups with GOOD porn. Good being that it's porn that turns me on and isn't sick and wrong (snuff films, smut, beastiality). I own quite a bit of porn myself. When I turned 18 recently, a friend and I went to the local adult movie store and I bought a DVD that's a porno parody of "Scream". Hilarious and definately erotic to me. How did I feel when I was in there? Not bad. Porn stores don't bother me because I just can't be embarrassed -- hey, what's the story with the guy who works there? It's more embarrassing to buy a magazine at a bookstore, I'll admit, but you have to try and keep your pride and dignity in front of people who might think of you as perverted. Am I perverted? If looking at and liking porn makes me perverted, then yes! God knows, late one night this past summer, I heard my next neighbors stripping, having a pool party and talking about braiding pubic hair. Well, I just had to go outside and try to see it for myself. But, my voyeuristic fantasy was ruined by the bushes.

But, back to porno and sex. I'm a BIG advocate on being in love with the person you have sex with. I like porn, but I don't want to go out and find hot porno-looking people to have sex with. I can (and I have) have meaningful relationships with people. I'm not in one now, but I'm working on it. And the next time I have sex, I'll be in love with the person, so help me God. My porn collection fits in neatly with all of my other collections -- it's just a different genre. I own a lot of horror movies, and comedies, and dramas, and some porn. I have a lot of books and magazines -- some are porn. It all depends on what I'm in the mood for if I'm alone, not busy, and desiring some form of artistic entertainment.

Porn is definately DARK, though. Not bad or evil, but dark. It's an extreme thing, but it's not baseball (though, porn can involve balls). It has a dark side. It's seen as naughty, dirty, perverse, sick -- but it's also seen as fun, cool, enjoyable, and even beautiful. Porn has certainly helped me creatively. It's also made me more worldly. Plus, I can learn new fun activities to do when I'm with the person I love. And, watching the porno stars can also help you improve your own sexual techniques if you pay attention (I'd recommend reading into it as well just to be safe).

Always play with porn safely too. It's best to be taught about all of the pros and cons. Such as, if you're a parent, don't watch porn around your children. Don't look at porn around company. Don't let it control your life.

Now, as for the porno stars and how it affects them... how should I know? I'm not a porno star, even though I may look like one.

On the difference of "having sex" and "making love" -- there is a difference, but I say, all sex acts leave a lasting impression on you. You can't forget about them. If you try to, you're fooling yourself. Of course, that may be just me, but I read an editorial once that said that and I felt that it was right. Sex is a combining of two energies. Making love is a positive thing, no doubt about it. So can just "having sex", especially if it was really good, but it's even better if you realize that sex is very powerful and you connected with that person. Sure, you can have orgies, but you can also remember those orgies and the beautiful people you got off with. Sex shouldn't be something you just put away and forget about, (unless it was really, really bad sex, then I say, get therapy) it should be a happy experience that you deal with, see it in a positive light, and something you appreciate. I'm sure everyone will agree that sex is better with someone you really love and find attractive. I hope everyone experiences that.

And I can't believe I just spilled my guts about porn and sex to a bunch of people I don't know that well, but there you have it!

[thmilin]

alright, I'm back.

public/private - sex. Ok, my personal opinion is sex (not making love) for HUMAN BEINGS is by default a relational and emotional thing. As Chris said, your example is heavily based on TEACHING children about sex. Also, your examples are very obscure. For the majority of time in the majority of the world, how's sex been treated and enacted? In private. The Greeks may have encouraged orgies but they didn't do it in the streets, did they? They did it in bathhouses. Did they do it with people they knew, or with strangers? If it's people they know, you feel comfortable with those people and by that relation alone - it is a private group activity.It's all fine and well that a tribe allows their children to have sex early and to watch their parents making love but that's the one tribe with their own opinion. I won't disagree that a culture defines how sex is treated. But to follow your own example - are those parents MAKING LOVE or having sex? They're making love. CHILDREN are watching people THEY love who love each other MAKE love. And I'm sure they're doing it in a hut and the whole town isn't watching - it's just a family activity. It's still a private group activity, meant for those within the family or within the tribe. I'm quite sure that tribe doesn't want to see visiting Westerners get it on in front of their communal fire. But it remains that no matter HOW each culture explores/defines/treats sex NOW or in the PAST - the majority is STILL private. Hence, boudoirs, brothels, and whatever else, found in just about ANY culture across the globe.

And like Chris said, humans are always going to tie more to sex than the mere biological. We are human. EMOTIONS are going to get involved when you're copulating, no matter how small.

As for marrying the girl - that's a noble thing. i'd say most men wouldn't and even if they did - they'd still never look at the girl the same way again and it would affect his perception of her. sure, you'll know the girl will have had sex with someone else in the past, this is a reality we all have to face in the modern age. BUT - that a girl had PUBLIC sex and made her physical body a publication, for others to share. It wasn't just "caught on tape" - it was mass produced and SOLD. your UNCLE could have that same tape, for all you know. It wasn't a private video with the single only existing copy being on her bookshelf. Her particular personal way of grunting, her way of panting, her way of whatever is shared with all the world and cheapened, in that sense. It's like the buffalo penny. It's rare, isn't it? Worth more, indeed, than a $1 (or whatever you coin collectors would say). Not to say YOU wouldn't treasure your girl as much as you did before you knew but much of the world wouldn't - probably her own family wouldn't - if they knew.

The personal problem of porn affecting you - the personal problem is in ALL OF US. Some of us have more willpower than others. Like Chris said - the porn is there, willynilly. You could HAVE more willpower if it were LESS available. The more present something is, the less easily you deny it. The less easily it AFFECTS you. The personal "flaw" if you'd never had so much porn to enjoy may NEVER have been triggered if there hadn't been so much stimulation available to you. Like alcoholics. Sure, they're fine if they try a drink. But then they discover when they're in college and a drink is offered in every dorm room, every party, every place they ever visit, that drinking all the time is A-Ok. Next thing they know they don't know how NOT to drink.

watching vs. going out and doing it - well that blew my point out of proportion. For those who physically can't, that's one thing. I'm not talking about disabled people. And regardless, who says a disabled person can't have a sexual relationship? But anyway, I'm talking about people who choose watching over doing when they are perfectly capable of the doing. The majority of people buying porn are MALE and SINGLE. They have jobs. They are physically capable of going out and getting it on and have the cash to spend on a date if they can afford to pay $40 for 30 min of porn.

Ah so porn is only okay if watched with good intentions, good to know.

mm, so take a sentence and twist the point I intended the whole paragraph of text before it for. That was not what I was saying and I think you know it. But if you want to simplify it off the cuff, technically that stands. And your own arguments support that. YOU have good intentions. YOU don't think porn adversely affects you. You've seen it, and you're intentions were not to go out and rape someone, mistreat a woman, or get addicted. So, you think it's ok. Voila.

Now, to what I really meant that for. My whole argument says porn on it's own represents an evil already established in our society as a whole. REPRESENTS. It is like alcohol - it f*cks with your body and your mind and your behavior. But, in moderation, alcohol can relax you a wee bit and you can have a nice time with your friends. Too much, and you can have a total freak party, pass out and die of alcohol poisoning - I've seen this take away a high schooler and it wasn' t pretty. So, porn by it's own NATURE (like alcohol) is unhealthy but someone with self control and who practices MODERATION can be ok. I have said things pointing that way again and again in my posts. If you intend to watch porn and not have porn be your SOLE source of sexual gratification (ie, live sexually THROUGH the porn rather than go have a healthy, sexual life with someone you love and care about), ie, watch porn and NOT let it get the best of you in whatever sense, then yeah, that's the lesser of the evils. We can't get RID of porn. Just like we can't get rid of alcohol. We can't get RID of desire. But we CAN control how much influence we let it have over ourselves and society.

Good for you, OG, that you and your friends have this control. But that's just you and your group. You chose those friends for a reason. What about the other kids at school you DON'T hang with? What about the kids in the school in the next county? The next state?

I can honestly tell you with a smile on my face that I've seen porn, and a fair amount of it. Call me a bad person, or whatever. I can also honestly tell you with a smile on my face that I'm a virgin. I can also honestly tell you with a smile on my face that even after having watched porn multipile times I've turned down sex.

And I can say each and every one of those statements right back to you in truth, too. So? I don't think I'm bad. I don't think you're bad. I don't think people who drink alcohol or smoke are bad. Like I said, just because WE have self control doesn't mean others don't. But once again, who's to say that as in control of our perception as we feel we are, that our point of view on women didn't change when we saw one get down on her knees and take a faceful of something unpleasant? And who's to say that a 12 yr old boy who sees it isn't going to have his little mind think that's perfectly normal and ok and that EVERY woman is going to want and like that WHENEVER he finally chooses to have sex? Yay for him if he loses his virginity later, but the question also is WHAT does he do, what does he become BECAUSE of this mainstream exposure to sex which INCLUDES porn (and is not limited to it)? Is looking at a woman's @ss on the street outright ok? Most women WON'T think so. That behavior is encouraged by the subtle societal influences that include the influence of porn. And a lot of men go through their lives thinking that sh|t is harmless, funny, and ok. It isn't. Think of The Man Show and their Juggie dancers. Sure, you laugh. What I find funny is the way men are childlike in their "gimme gimme, I want more" behavior when it comes to indulging their appetites. Glug down beer, make a lotta noise, and squeeze some hooters. But I don't find the juggies themselves funny at all because I know they represent the stuff I've been arguing about right here. THe men's behavior is hilariously juvenile and it's fun to watch a man be stupid in that way. It's in most men's nature. However, it's still not attractive or healthy. It's one thing to act out your needs and entirely another to have a society that keeps a platter of sex at people's beck and call while those on the receiving end just keep on glug glugging, rub rubbing, buy-buying porn and the IDEAS it sells.

job change - i already covered why a lot of women do it. as chris and i agree - a lot of people stick to something regardless of if it's good or right or you're entirely happy with it. if we all changed our job cause we hated it we'd have a LOT more job switching going on all the time. we don't. human nature is to not rock the boat once you're in it unless something REALLY gets your goat.

and to cover a major point of your argument that I guess you feel we've claimed - NO one said porn was going to make you go out and have sex. we said, porn is going to affect you. HOW it affects you is variable because, as you and chris have noted, every person's different. what for one man could cause him to look at every woman's pair of shoes may cause no one else any noticeable harm and HE gets off on it. but for another would cause a man to demoralize every woman he ever has sex with while in bed with her behind closed doors. no one even said RAPE was a necessary byproduct. but even you, when bringing up the african tribe, seemed to note that proper teaching and open healthy discussion of sex prevented rape. if a culture in the US keeps it under wraps and then makes it even more taboo by distributing porn people have to hide under their bed or from their wives or their parents ... basically, it's repression breaking loose, and it's going to come out in whatever way a man needs it to come out.

sex and power. sex and power are totally related. when they investigate rapists they want power over a woman because they can't get power over anything else, or someone else always has power over them. a woman is an easy target. in bed, we're all targets. that's why it's PRIVATE no matter how casual the sex is or how many people you choose to include. that other person is seeing you at your most vulnerable and has the ability to humiliate you, hurt you, misread you, or pleasure you. you TRUST that they will choose the latter. you have no control other than to not engage at all. in all sex and in making love, there is a power exchange. and in general, people enjoy having that power over each other and when healthy and in love they delight in using that power to please the other person, and in having that other person do the same to them.

whew.

[sadesdrk]

Sex is for anyone. Sex, by it's self is just two bodies fulfilling a basic need.

What happens before sex, the foreplay, and what happens after sex, the cuddling and pillow talk; is for lovers; those who are in love.

Pornos, are JUST sex. Very rarely, (unless it has a story line) are the couples being filmed after sex. The scene pretty much ends after a climax of some sort. There's no,"love making" involved.

So here is what I'm saying. Pornos don't cheapen sex. Sex already is cheapened everytime two people come together to get off, that don't love each other.

Love making is still valued and cherished. Even if a married couple who love each other, sit down and watch a porno, they're still going to go to bed and make love.

[OG-]

Originally posted by sadesdrk

So here is what I'm saying. Pornos don't cheapen sex. Sex already is cheapened everytime two people come together to get off, that don't love each other.

Thats exactly what I was trying to say. Porn doesn't cheapen sex because society has already cheapened it.

more to come about this later, i's got stuff to do.

[Yoda]

I don't buy that. Society has not forever tainted it. It's not as if we can say "Oh, sex is cheapened. Oh well. At least now we can watch porn without cheapening it anymore!" Sades is right: any sex that is not about love is cheap...and bad. And seeing as how porn is all about sex, and not love, why would watching it not also cheapen it?

[Sexy Celebrity]

Originally posted by TWTCommish
I don't buy that. Society has not forever tainted it. It's not as if we can say "Oh, sex is cheapened. Oh well. At least now we can watch porn without cheapening it anymore!" Sades is right: any sex that is not about love is cheap...and bad. And seeing as how porn is all about sex, and not love, why would watching it not also cheapen it?

If someone else wants to cheapen sex for themselves by doing porn, let them. We don't have to follow in their footsteps. But not all of them believe that they're cheapening sex for themselves.

How do you feel about videotaping sex with your loved one? Would you ever do it? I know I would. I do love that personal porn.

[OG-]

Just so I'm clear, because everyone is kind of straying from the topic, why exactly do you oppose pornography?

[Yoda]

Originally posted by OG-
Just so I'm clear, because everyone is kind of straying from the topic, why exactly do you oppose pornography?
Good thinking man. That'll definitely help steer this in a reasonable direction. Here's why I oppose it: I think it's morally wrong.

I think it cheapens sex...this ties into the above, but is more a secular thing.

I think it has the potential to become addictive or have other serious effects.Those are my reasons, at least.

[Sir Toose]

Originally posted by sadesdrk
Sex is for anyone. Sex, by it's self is just two bodies fulfilling a basic need.

What happens before sex, the foreplay, and what happens after sex, the cuddling and pillow talk; is for lovers; those who are in love.

Pornos, are JUST sex. Very rarely, (unless it has a story line) are the couples being filmed after sex. The scene pretty much ends after a climax of some sort. There's no,"love making" involved.

So here is what I'm saying. Pornos don't cheapen sex. Sex already is cheapened everytime two people come together to get off, that don't love each other.

Love making is still valued and cherished. Even if a married couple who love each other, sit down and watch a porno, they're still going to go to bed and make love.


*applause*
Now I don't need to say anything... only quote Sadie :yup:

[sadesdrk]

*bows*
Thank You.
and now that's all I have to say about that. C'mon Matt, let's get out of this dirty little thread...:)

[Yoda]

Matt STARTED it. :laugh:

Personally I'm having quite the time. Any arguments I'm not exposed to now I'll be exposed to later. Better now and with people I know and generally respect and in this medium than otherwise.

[mightymose]

Ahhhh!!!! Too much reading!

I will say this though, (just to get my two cents in).

I agree, sex is just two people carrying out an act that has no deeper meaning than the act itself.

Making love is the ultimate expression of love and is a sacred bond between two people.

These two things should be one and the same, but unfortunately in feel good society of today people can pretty much justify any act, sex being one of the easiest.

Now I am not against porn and I don't feel my outlook on women has been altered b/c I've seen a porno or two in my life :) Making love is something I take very seriously, in fact, my wife 'popped my cherry' b/c I knew that I wanted to wait. I had seen quite a few porn movies before that time, and I have seen several since... and no matter what I see, I still love my wife and the act of making love is just as special today as it was the first time.

Lunchtime! Only 3 hours until I can go home and take a nap... sorry if this doesn't make any sense :) Just wanted to get my thoughts in.

[Sullivan]

Originally posted by OG-


Porn doesn't cheapen sex because society has already cheapened it.


They both do. I mean, look:

"Sex was cheapened by society on February 1st, 1969, at 8:14 AM, has formally existed in that "cheapened" state since then, and therefore cannot be further "cheapened" by anything else."

I think you see my point. Society cheapens sex. Porn cheapens sex. Women's magazine's cheapen sex. Men's magazines cheapen it. TV cheapens it. Movies cheapen it. Radio cheapens it. Newspapers cheapen it. All of these things have, do, and *will continue to* cheapen sex.

You say you believe sex is an important thing that shouldn't be done just between any two people. You say you've turned it down for this reason. Ostensibly you're waiting for the "right" person. It seems to me that your opinion ("porn isn't harmful", from what I can tell) doesn't follow.

by sades
Love making is still valued and cherished. Even if a married couple who love each other, sit down and watch a porno, they're still going to go to bed and make love.

I can't agree. They've just watched an act of disrespect: actors shagging up a storm, not because they respect or value the act or one another, but because they're getting paid. They just watched 30 minutes of economics. That's supposed to get them "in the mood"? That's supposed to encourage them to love, cherish, and care for each other? That's supposed to provoke ultimate intimacy? Whoo. Good luck. But I guess the smell of money is a pretty big turn-on, for some people.

by sades
Sex is for anyone. Sex, by it's self is just two bodies fulfilling a basic need.

and

by mightymose
I agree, sex is just two people carrying out an act that has no deeper meaning than the act itself.

Sex is a want, not a need. But the above sentences gets to the crux of my point and what I've been trying to say all along, which is:

You cannot engage in any sort of sexual behaviour with another individual without in some way engendering powerful emotional, psychological and spiritual undercurrents.

There is a deeper meaning. That deeper meaning is what emotional, psychological and spiritual effect having sex has on YOU. You can't drain off all the emotion, all the involvement, and "just do it". Oh, people try. But they can't.

And if it feels, to them, like they CAN, then there's a serious problem.

[Yoda]

That's an excellent point (among many), Sullivan. For one, how can you say "society" cheapens sex, but porn doesn't? Doesn't society encompass porn? And a lot else, for that matter? And, as mentioned by yourself, and others already, something is not cheapened on a permanent basis. It's not as if sex is not officially cheapened, so we might as well watch porn if we want. It can get WORSE, you know.

I dunno about a couple watching porn. Part of me can see how it could help them explore sexually, but personally it's not something I'd ever want to be a part of. Why risk the potentially for jealousy, and the ununavoidable thoughts and comparisons that will come up? Call me old-fashioned, but your spouse is all you should need, sexually.

As for sex being a want, versus being a need: I'm not sure. Not a TECHNICAL need, as going without it will not kill you...but we're obviously meant to have sex. It's not a need in the way food or water or air is, but it IS a need in the way friendship is, or parents that love you, etc. It's a healthy part of an optimal life, IMO.

[patti]

maybe porn, used in that way by couples, is like fast food...a shortcut, an immediate drive-up meal to avoid cooking a balanced, sit-down, converse and eat meal......instead of exploring intimacy and slowly cookin' up some good lovemaking they just do the ol' drive up........watch a porn flic and dig in, so to speak?

how's that for an analogy? hee hee
:p

[thmilin]

i think for couples who first watch porn it's mainly because they don't know how to articulate things. and they want to. it's hard to sit down in a quiet room and say, honey, I want you to tie me down and spank me. Or, I want you to throw me on a desk while in your suit from work. etc. When you have a video tape enacting what you want you work to that - you say, do you like that? The other person says, yes ... or, no, but I like THAT part. Then you work it out ...

[Swedish Chef]

Some Random Thoughts & Questions On Pornography...

I wonder how many Mofo's have pornography opened in other tabs/windows while on movieforums.com?

At what point do retired porn actors/actresses tell their children they've appeared in pornography?

Has Yoda changed his tone on porn, or is he still so uptight about it?

By definition, I think I'm probably addicted to internet pornography. It doesn't effect my everyday life or anything, but I definitely watch an awful lot of it. Is that really all that bad? I mean, flippin Mulder's addicted to internet porn, for Christ's sake!

I wonder if there are more porn stars than teachers in the world?

I wish I knew someone in the amateur porn business. Not because I want to break into the industry or anything, I just wanna know someone in the business.

While shooting a porn flick, do the performers have like an unwritten code of ethics they follow? Is there porn etiquette? Unspoken rules and regulations and whatnot?

How much does your average porn star make? Do they get paid on an hourly basis, or is it by the orgasm or what?

I thank God every day I was born at a time of such convenient and easily accesible pornographic imagery.

Did you guys know Sly Stallone made a softcore porn movie in the 70's?!

Is there a certain point where I'll see something on the internet so horrible and shocking and distasteful that I'll never be able to go on the internet again?

I know hindsight's 20/20 and all but, in retrospect, I probably should've gotten into the porn business.

Why can't I see someone I knew from high school or something taking in some penis on a porn website? That would just make my day, why hasn't that happened yet? Seriously, sooooo many people have done porn. Why haven't I known any of them?

[Pyro Tramp]

I like porn.

I've watched porn with my g/f but normally just ends up in the background.

I watched it with my ex because it was a more of a turn on than her.

I've made it with g/f, not for the reason of love but cuz she's got a smokin' body and when i've not seen her for a while, i can watch it because i miss her.

I like to watch porn. Hey, man's got a need and can't always get it twice a day after 10/11 month relationship.

Porn is very fake though, the women, all of what they express. I don't see it as anything similar to actual sex.

Some guy came into work (no, not a pun) and my manager had seen him on a porn site (apparently my manager was looking for work...). Quite funny, the guy was with his g/f but on his porn profile he had a lot of gay stuff (apparently) which none of us suspected his g/f knew about. Apparently it pays a good few hundred per hour.

I doubt porn-stars have children. They probably would have least painful births, though.

Swede- something sick enough to make you leave the internet? Heard of something involving two girls and one cup?

Anyway, i glimpsed the prior conversation and don't think it's worth comparing 'love-making' to porn since they are totally different, in my perspective.

[Yoda]

Whoa, ancient thread. My 17-year-old self for all to see. So weird. Anyway...

I wonder how many Mofo's have pornography opened in other tabs/windows while on movieforums.com?
I wonder if we really want to hear the answer to this one.

At what point do retired porn actors/actresses tell their children they've appeared in pornography?
I've definitely wondered this myself. I'm sure some don't at all. And I'm sure some of their kids find out anyway. Even if you're 100% cool with porn, I have to imagine this makes for some unbelievably uncomfortable situations.

Has Yoda changed his tone on porn, or is he still so uptight about it?
Shaddup. :p My tone has changed, but my core beliefs haven't. That is to say, I still think it's a bad thing, at least in the sense that it's not an "optimal" thing. I think most people would agree (though not all, I'm sure) that porn would not be part of an ideal or perfect life. It doesn't make you a better person and it's not the kind of thing you regret not doing more of on your deathbed.

If we agree that it's not an ideal thing, the rest is a matter of degree.

By definition, I think I'm probably addicted to internet pornography. It doesn't effect my everyday life or anything, but I definitely watch an awful lot of it. Is that really all that bad? I mean, flippin Mulder's addicted to internet porn, for Christ's sake!
I dunno. Some people say you're addicted to anything when it starts to have some kind of significant effect on your day to day life, or when you begin to choose it over normal, healthier activities. Not sure if I agree, but it sounds reasonable.

I wonder if there are more porn stars than teachers in the world?
Not unless you count people who make homemade pornography for their own, er, consumption. Then, who knows.

I thank God every day I was born at a time of such convenient and easily accesible pornographic imagery.
I'm guessing it wouldn't have been as bad before, because along with less pornography, there would have been less mass media in general. Pornography probably seems a lot more vital in a time where the world's most beautiful women are so often paraded in front of everyone.

Did you guys know Sly Stallone made a softcore porn movie in the 70's?!
I did know that, and I think it's pretty amazing. I'm surprised this isn't a bigger deal, in a way.

Is there a certain point where I'll see something on the internet so horrible and shocking and distasteful that I'll never be able to go on the internet again?
I don't think so; the Internet is too crucial to too many things. No one's going to stop looking up movie times or reading the news on the Internet because they found something especially disturbing, I don't think. Maybe for a short while, though.

I do think you can get to the point where you feel the need to supress your curiousity in the future, though. I'd say that's pretty common.

Why can't I see someone I knew from high school or something taking in some penis on a porn website? That would just make my day, why hasn't that happened yet? Seriously, sooooo many people have done porn. Why haven't I known any of them?
Maybe you do, and don't know it. :goof:

[Sexy Celebrity]

I wonder how many Mofo's have pornography opened in other tabs/windows while on movieforums.com?

Well, not right now.

By definition, I think I'm probably addicted to internet pornography. It doesn't effect my everyday life or anything, but I definitely watch an awful lot of it. Is that really all that bad? I mean, flippin Mulder's addicted to internet porn, for Christ's sake!

It's pretty something that David Duchovney came out about it.

Yes, addiction to internet porn can be bad for you. I read about this in the book, The Brain That Changes Itself. Your brain's mind maps can become so used to only being visually stimulated by porn that it can interfere with actual physical sexual encounters -- i.e., you get impotent and can't do the deed.

I wonder if there are more porn stars than teachers in the world?

Probably not... but I wonder how many porn stars have played teachers.

I wish I knew someone in the amateur porn business. Not because I want to break into the industry or anything, I just wanna know someone in the business.

You wouldn't take knowing a doctor, a lawyer, a Chinese hypnotherapist or an astronaut first?

While shooting a porn flick, do the performers have like an unwritten code of ethics they follow? Is there porn etiquette? Unspoken rules and regulations and whatnot?

They are usually nice to the fluffer and they go through as many condoms as possible, per position.

How much does your average porn star make? Do they get paid on an hourly basis, or is it by the orgasm or what?

I think it's usually per film - maybe hourly too - but they make A LOT OF FILMS (if they're good).

I thank God every day I was born at a time of such convenient and easily accesible pornographic imagery.

Some would say pornography's been around forever (look at art) - but yeah, we were lucky to be around after the invention of the camera.

Did you guys know Sly Stallone made a softcore porn movie in the 70's?!

I have seen pictures.... HOT... but note the word softcore... so close and yet so far away.

Is there a certain point where I'll see something on the internet so horrible and shocking and distasteful that I'll never be able to go on the internet again?

Rotten.com

or PerezHilton.com

Why can't I see someone I knew from high school or something taking in some penis on a porn website?

Have you been to Bait Bus or Jake Cruise?