Holden & mafo at Movie Forums

[mark f]

Allrighty. I'm going to go ahead and open this thread up to see how it plays out based on a couple of things. I was talking with Holden Pike yesterday and asked him if he wanted to go in with me on a thread where we discuss various new movies, older favorites and some film personalities or significant trends. The idea would be to make it something along the lines of Siskel & Ebert At the Movies. I'm not sure if you guys would care for us to do something like that or not, but it would be a way for some of you to know a little bit more about how Holden and I agree and differ in our ways of looking at movies. Plus, I'm sure that you'd learn more about movies and us in general too. (You see, I don't know if you think that's such a good thing... )

Now, we didn't really spend a lot of time planning this, plus we have a temporary monkey wrench which may cause some disruption. You may have noticed that Gene [R.I.P.]... er, I mean, Holden (the taller, younger guy), hasn't been around much lately. Now, he wants me, Rog (the older, fatter guy) to assure you it's not because he's just sick of all you guys. His home P.C. has been out of commission for quite awhile now and he was back east with the family during the holidays later than normal because of snowy conditions in Oregon. But he says he's back and ready to join in again at the site and at this thread. He'll probably have to post from either work or a bookstore down the street from him until he gets his PC up and running again though, so I thought I'd start out with an intro here before I jump in and just start discussing something which is stuck in my craw.

I also wanted to make it clear that we haven't really discussed a clearcut format we want to use. This is not supposed to be a closed, elitist thread with two pompous windbags. We want "audience participation", but we want to make sure that we have a chance to give our own opinions about something, as close as we can to the same time, "pseudo-face-to-face" (because this isn't going to turn into a podcast anytime soon) before everybody else shares their ideas. That could very well be a logistical nightmare, but I believe in MoFo and I think it's doable! :cool:

So, basically, I'm going to open this thread to test the waters in two fashions: (1) I want to see how soon Holden can reply (and if you reply before I come back, go ahead and think out loud, and if you have a movie you want to start off with, let 'er rip; (2) I want to let any MoFos who care tell us what you think and offer some suggestions for movies or topics of discussion. I'm pretty sure that Holden has seen more recently-released films than I have, so I don't want him to waste his time and write up a page about a movie I still haven't seen and wait for me to respond (PM me in advance when unsure, Big Guy), but I'm thinking one of our earliest segments should be on something about the Oscars (maybe a film or a category). When in doubt, we're well aware of thousands of films we've both seen, but I'd like to keep things as fresh as possible.

Also, this is not meant to supplant our wonderful MoFo Film Club. I'm hoping that Holden and I can tear through some discussions quickly, or at least as quickly as the members seem to care. I came up with this idea for a thread because I've noticed that we've had a huge influx of younger and newer blood around here, and I was hoping this thread might appeal to them. I mean, I hope it appeals to everyone, but you know, "the best laid plans... " That's true. Maybe this will be the only post in this thread. So, if anybody cares, now's the time to make suggestions, and once we get the hang of how to run this topic, it should turn out very fun for all those involved.

http://images.inmagine.com/img/moodboard/mb511/mwi11590023.jpg

[n3wt]

Cool sounds really interesting mate!

[Mrs. Darcy]

I'm looking forward to this, fellas. Let 'er rip.

I would suggest starting with something relatively current to grab our younger members' interest/ and or participation.

[Iroquois]

I'm looking forward to this, fellas. Let 'er rip.

I would suggest starting with something relatively current to grab our younger members' interest/ and or participation.

Personally, I wouldn't be averse to having older films discussed, but at least with more recent films, I have a better chance of knowing about them or being able to see them.

[Powdered Water]

This is going to be a really good read, I can't wait to start reading it.

[Mrs. Darcy]

Personally, I wouldn't be averse to having older films discussed, but at least with more recent films, I have a better chance of knowing about them or being able to see them.

I definitely want older films discussed, but for the first movie, to get the younger kids' feet wet, something more modern would give them a chance to be included from the start.

[Iroquois]

In that case, I can hardly wait to see what they settle on.

[christine]

I always enjoy reading whenever either of you posts thoughts about films, so would def read this proposed thread :)

[Sedai]

Seeing as how the two of you already post most of my favorite content on the site, I am thinking I would also enjoy this. ;)

Have at it!

[Caitlyn]

I'm looking forward to this... :cool:

[Yoda]

This sounds fantastic. :) I think a sprinkling of old and new would be good, but I wouldn't discount the value of focusing mainly on the classics. It has more staying power, and I think even the much younger MoFos have shown that they're genuinely interested in exposing themselves to as many classic films as possible.

[Ðèstîñy]

Personally, I wouldn't be averse to having older films discussed, but at least with more recent films, I have a better chance of knowing about them or being able to see them.

Numerous are available. So if the discussions last long enough, maybe you will have the time to either purchase some of them, or get them from your local video store, or library.

I'm hoping older films are discussed more-so than newer films, because they cover mostly newer films in the other thread. Besides, I need another excuse for buying movies. ;)

[Holden Pike]

Sorry. I'm here. Went out with M'Lady and got nice and drunk on a few glasses of good red wine last night. No time for internetting. OK, so I'm not sorry.

But I'm good to go, now. Where do we start, Mark?

http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/movietheater1.jpg

[Sir Toose]

Whoop!

Great idea!

[Sinny McGuffins]

I'm excited. :yup:

[Swedish Chef]

Yeah, this sounds tremendous

[mikeython1]

Sounds Awesome!! :up:

[rice1245]

a closed, elitist thread with two pompous windbags

:modest:

[John McClane]

This is a very interesting and great idea.

[TheDOMINATOR]

This sounds very interesting. I can't wait to read your discussions and possibly even participate in them (if I'm understanding the procedure correctly).

To start things off, is someone--anyone--supposed to recommend a film to discuss?

[Swan]

I still have a ton of films to see so I would be very interested in hearing (*reading) you guys talk about them and what I should look out for or stay away from.

[meatwadsprite]

The wiseman and the wiseass - this should be grand.

http://www.wing-chun-training.com/images/ying-yang.jpg

Looking forward to your first review guys.

[honeykid]

It sounds interesting guys, go for it. :yup:

[iluv2viddyfilms]

Oh no, I'd say their both wise asses.

And yes anytime we can have two film elitist bastards argue it out... I'm all for it. Especially when its these two.

As for a first film... I'm not sure. If I brush out the cobwebs of ancient MovieJustice history, it seemed like these two disagreed very much on the film Taxi Driver. Of course I could be wrong.

http://www.filmforum.org/films/nycnoir/TAXIDRIVER002.jpg

[mark f]

This is a test of the Emergency Broadcast Network. Holds, I know you've seen My Winnipeg. I've seen it twice today. What a crazy, semi-original, flippin' wacko, hilarious, beautifully-conceived, visually-flamboyant, incredibly-personal, and still-sad flick! Maybe we can start something about this one, even though I realize that you still need to get your personal PC fixed to be able to discuss in the evenings. Hopefully, you can say something because I would take the lead here, but I want to know when the response will show. Hey. Justin, if you or anyone else who has seen it wants to post something, feel free. :cool:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/06/13/arts/13winn600.jpg

The internet only posts images of this shot upside down and backwards! HA!

[Powdered Water]

When are you two crazy kids going to really kick this bad boy off? The call just now poured in from your rabid fan. OK, not really. But I still would like to see you two get this bird off the ground.

[7thson]

^ ditto (lord that is so geeky of a word to use outside of a printing press"

[Holden Pike]

OK, Mark and I are finally going to give this a shot, see how it goes. We're going to start with a true classic in the Western genre...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d7/Redriverposter48.jpg/200px-Redriverposter48.jpg
RED RIVER
1948, Howard Hawks

Where to begin with Red River? It's a tale of an epic cattle drive from Texas to the plains of Kansas, along the Chisholm Trail, stars John Wayne and Montgomery Clift, and was the first Western made by the great director Howard Hawks, who worked in just about every genre there was over his long, brilliant career. It loosely takes some cues from Mutiny On the Bounty, with Wayne's tough-minded and sometimes even tyrannical Tom Dunson at constant odds with his informally adopted son Matthew (Clift), who is more gentle and beloved by the other cowhands. For those who have never seen Red River it was referenced in the hit comedy City Slickers, the "Yee Haw!" scene they replicate at the beginning of their cattle drive. It's also the last picture show in Peter Bogdanovich's The Last Picture Show.

In general I have problems with John Wayne, but that doesn't mean I don't think he was in some all-time great films, [Red River being near the top of the list for me. For those who only know Montgomery Clift by name, this was his first movie and he quickly became a movie star in the 1950s, often grouped together with Brando and James Dean as the new crop of Hollywood stars who employed "Method" acting. The mixture of his off-center vulnerability with a version of Wayne's iconic persona is a winner. One of the reasons I like Wayne in this is he isn't a perfect good guy, but a rather monsterous sonofabitch. It's the kind of role I wish he had chosen more often.


So, I'll let Mark get in here and hopefully start a conversation....

[mark f]

To show a perfect example of what Holds is talking about, check this:

Please forgive the crummy audio; it's much better on the DVD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PvWoWwzKsA

Red River is a Star Wars-type experience for some people I know. My brother, who was five when Red River came out, said that the only movie he could compare it to in the theatrical experience was Star Wars (1977), and no matter how much I disagree with him on other things, I can see what he's talking about concerning Red River (I've see it on the big screen). Hawks goes out of his way to film everything in a spectacular manner, even including the scenes which were obviously shot on sets. Much of Red River is shot out on the Plains in the middle of nowhere, and according to Pauline Kael, the budget for the film almost doubled because Hawks rented the cattle and then a rain storm occurred, causing the film to be unable to shoot the appropriate scenes until after about 1.5 million dollars got washed away. Even so, most everybody loved Red River, and it's one of the greatest adventure films I've ever seen.

It's really interesting to see the interaction between Wayne and Clift. The kid they have playing the young Clift is really good at getting pissed at the Wayne (Dunson) character, but Clift, himself, tries to play everthing low-key, at least until he's forced to act in the video shown. I also love the relationship between Walter Brennan and John Wayne. The characters in Red River just seem to have lived together for years.

Holden?

[Holden Pike]

I've never gotten to see Red River on the big screen, but I hope to someday. I've seen it many times on television and DVD, of course. It does have some impressive epic shots, that's for sure. In a way I wish it had been made five or six years later so it might have been a widescreen color spectacular like his epic Land of the Pharaohs, which isn't much of a movie beyond its scope. But for non-widescreen-format Westerns, you can't do much better than Red River for spectacle. And he didn't even use Ford's Monument Valley.

It has some familiar Hawks themes in it about manhood and loyalty and the meaning of courage. I'd say one Hawks trademark it doesn't have a whole lot of his humor, other than some of the great Walter Brennan's moments. And Joanne Dru as Tess, she certainly has many of the traits of a no nonsense tough Hawks woman, especially evident in that scene at the end where she breaks up their dramatic fight to the death before it gets that far.

http://www.filmsite.org/posters/redr2.gif http://www.movieactors.com/freeze-frames/redriver/RedRiver6-51-16-90.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3041/2567188806_bac7134c66.jpg?v=0

There are some great character actors in some of the supporting roles too, not just the aforementioned Brennan but also Harry Carey Senior and Junior, Hank Worden as well as Noah Beery Jr., who late in his career got the role of his life as Jim's father Rocky on "The Rockford Files".

Wayne was best known as the Western movie star, and most of his reputation and legend is tied to his many movies with John Ford. But he made four with Howard Hawks. The others aren't masterpieces like Red River and come late in both The Duck (I says) and Hawks' careers, but this collaboration has to stand boot to boot with the best of the Ford/Wayne pairings, though if forced to choose I'd put the myth-examining of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance just slightly ahead of it.

[mark f]

Yep, that scene where Joanne Dru's arm is pinned to a wagon by an Indian's arrow isn't probably meant to be funny, but the way she just keeps pitching her sex is, so who's responsible for that? There is something of a motif in the film about the Dunson (I respectfully will call him The Duke) character losing his women. At the beginning of the film, Dunson makes the mistake of sending off the woman who would give him "all that he needs a woman to give him to be a man". It's this guilt over his lost love which seems to later help fuel Dunson's megalomanical ideas, but Matt does seem to warm his heart as a father, at least until he "turns" against the old man.

One other thing I find interesting about Red River is that it came out the same year as The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, and although the two films obviously have different agendas, it's amazing how much they're able to compliment each other. Both films have almost paranoid lead characters who are actually not really bad people but turn increasingly dangerous the more they get closer to their dreams coming true. Fred C. Dobbs isn't really that far off from Dunson when you get right down to it, but Dobbs goes all primeval (Alfonso Bedoyaish) and doesn't need to do bad things according to some "higher authority" where he "reads over" the men he's killed.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/bejmaf/red-river-wayne.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/bejmaf/bogartsierramadre.jpg

[Holden Pike]

http://www.homevideos.com/freeze-movies/redriver/RedRiver7-27-06-82.jpg http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Humphrey_Bogart_in_The_Treasure_of_the_Sierra_Madre_trailer.jpg/200px-Humphrey_Bogart_in_The_Treasure_of_the_Sierra_Madre_trailer.jpg

Yeah, it does have some character parallels with John Huston's Sierra Madre, though I think Dunson's paranoia and anger is somewhat more justified on a basic level. He brings the "mutiny" on himself, but it comes from his single-minded determination to accomplish the Herculean task of the massive drive the only way he knows how, even if it is too dictatorial and insensitive to the other men on the drive. Dobbs, on the other hand, has classic "gold fever" and his paranoia that grows to madness is really unfounded in any reality, as Tim Holt's Curtain and Walter Huston's Howard have given absolutely no reasons for him to distrust them. But both movies do have the big movie stars of Wayne and Bogart going mad in a largely unsympathetic ways, which is unusual for movie stars of any era but especially the late 1940s.

As for the later Wayne and Hawks Westerns, Rio Bravo and El Dorado are nice enough entertainments, but they don't do much for me and don't have the kind of ambition and characters as Red River. I don't really groove to the gimmicky Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson casting with song break in Bravo, I much prefer Mitchum and Jimmy Caan in Dorado. But considering El Dorado came out in '66, after Leone burst onto the international scene and just before he and Peckinpah really changed the genre, it seems very out of step and tired. Considering a movie we both love, Richard Brooks' endlessly enjoyable The Professionals with Lee Marvin, Burt Lancaster, et al. came out the same year as El Dorado, to me it shows how Wayne was truly'waning, even as king of the movie Western. It's still a few years before The Duck is given his Oscar for True Grit, which I think even the most ardent Wayne fans can see is mostly a career achievement acknowledgment rather than an award for being amazing in that particular flick. I mean, he beat out Hoffman and Voight for Midnight Cowboy! I know even as a John Wayne fan, that has to dumbfound you (in an awards sense) considering your love for the Schlesinger movie.

"That was Rio Bravo. Robert Mitchum played the drunk in El Dorado, Dean Martin played the drunk in Rio Bravo. Basically, it was the same part. Now John Wayne, he did the same in both: he played John Wayne.”
- Chili Palmer, Get Shorty


So Mark, where would you put Red River in the Wayne Western pantheon or in comparison to the John Ford titles?

[nebbit]

Nice thread guys :yup:

[mark f]

First of all, I will absolutely pimp The Professionals again. I love (or is it lurve, Woody Allen?) that movie. It seems like it was made yesterday, not 43 years ago! I will also say that even though I agree with you and believe that Wayne got his Oscar for "career accomplishment" for True Grit that I enjoy that performance and don't really begrudge him that win, at least anymore. Wayne did quite a bit of against-type acting in that flick too, and his sense of humor there is really quite excellent.

I know that you have problems with The Quiet Man, but that's easily my Best Ford and Best Wayne flick, and what d'ya know, St. Patrick's Day is turning up in about a week! I'd probably rate Wayne's performances as follows:

1. The Quiet Man
2. Red River
3. The Searchers
4. Island in the Sky
5. True Grit

I'd probably rate his best films as follows:

1. The Quiet Man
2. Red River
3. The Searchers
4. True Grit
5. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

I like Wayne as an actor a lot. I don't feel he ever really "phoned it in", Big Jim McLain notwithstanding. The Duke was just being himself, and I realize that if you don't like his politics that could grate on you, but I believe he created some great characters (whether it was by accident or not), and I'm not going to belittle him for giving me and countless millions pleasure, even if you want to say it was because he walked or talked "funny".

[rice1245]

if i haven't seen Red River should i read all that? ^^^^^ i want to...but i haven't seen it :(

[Used Future]

Where's The Shootist in that list hmmm?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/Shootist_movie_poster.jpg

[mark f]

Of course, rice. The Shootist is probably somewhere around #6 on both of MY lists, but Holden will have to answer for himself.

[Sedai]

Great discussion, folks. I have added Red River to my queue...

[Holden Pike]

Yeah, The Shootist is up there. It's the perfect way for Wayne to have gone out on film, and Don Siegel does a good job mixing wistful nostalgia with some of the myth-breaking of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Footage from Red River is used in the opening, as well as bits from Rio Bravo and El Dorado, in establishing Wayne's character's exploits in younger days. It also wound up as the final Western for Jimmy Stewart, The Duck's Liberty Valance co-star who made his mark in the genre mostly in flicks made by Anthony Mann.

[Harry Lime]

I'd like to see which one of you can make it to 100% on the movie lists first, you are both very close. Actually Holden has seen 101% of the Oscar Winners, which is impossible, maybe something Yoda needs to fix?

[Loner]

What about the scene when Montgomery Clift and John Ireland admire each others guns?

It's still a few years before The Duck is given his Oscar for True Grit

Little Bill Daggett (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000432/): Duck, I says.

[spudracer]

Just popped in here and I must say, this is a great thread. Too bad you can't do side-by-side posts.

[Sedai]

Bump - You guys doing up another flick soon?

How about Breakfast at Tiffany's?

[nebbit]

http://bestsmileys.com/bumping/3.gif

[iluv2viddyfilms]

Bump - You guys doing up another flick soon?

How about Breakfast at Tiffany's?

I'm all for it. I love that movie though I can't completely look at the film the way I did before I went to NYC.

[iluv2viddyfilms]

Yeah, The Shootist is up there. It's the perfect way for Wayne to have gone out on film, and Don Siegel does a good job mixing wistful nostalgia with some of the myth-breaking of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Footage from Red River is used in the opening, as well as bits from Rio Bravo and El Dorado, in establishing Wayne's character's exploits in younger days. It also wound up as the final Western for Jimmy Stewart, The Duck's Liberty Valance co-star who made his mark in the genre mostly in flicks made by Anthony Mann.

I think The Shootist is great in that it's somewhat reflective of Wayne's real life situation, though apparently he didn't know he had cancer until after he made the film. I appreciate the "going out in style" idealogy of the movie. Jimmy Stewart's line "If I had half the courage that you do, I would not die the death I just described," gets to me quite a bit.

I remember I must have been about 13 or so when I first saw The Shootist and it really made me think about death quite a bit.
Another great moment is when Wayne says to Bacall, "I'm a dieing man afraid of the dark," after basically beginning her to go riding with him in the countryside.

Like Red River it shows a vulnerable and unperfect John Wayne, though the two are very different films of course. Red River is my favorite film of all time. I just now went through and read mark's and holden's posts.

[Powdered Water]

You two going to do another one of these or what?

[mark f]

I'd like to, and I saw Holden on here a minute ago, so let's hound him to death until he does it!!

[Tazz]

Bump, HOLDEN!!! Where you at? I require an explanation Mr. Pike...

[nebbit]

Tazz nice to see you :kiss:

[mark f]

Any ideas on a follow-up? Holds? Anybody? Any questions or comments?

[TheUsualSuspect]

Shoot The Piano Player

[mark f]

Are you serious or do you just want me to try to get into trouble by posting another image with a "topless" woman?

[TheUsualSuspect]

.....both.

[Holden Pike]

The Film Festival won't be finished until this Sunday, so I'm rather busy until then. But if you want to fire up another topic, go ahead, and I'll start noodlin' on it.

What about a discussion of a single director, actor or subgenre of film? I know there are plenty Mark and I respectfully disagree on, and a bunch more we more or less see eye to eye on.

[mark f]

No rush, I hope. I just went through some dormant threads and bumped a few I might want to do before I take off to the Undiscovered Country.

If we want to "respectfully" get bloody, we could do John Cassavetes. If we want to go where we mix it up a bit more, we could do Sam Peckinpah. "Post-modern" European cinema (4 Months, 3 Weeks, 2 Days, Revanche, Festen) could be really polarizing, but I hope in an interesting way.

Holds, do you have any specific names or ideas?

[Harry Lime]

Cassavetes or Peckinpah, you guys discussing either one sounds pretty interesting to me.

[Sinny McGuffins]

Don't suppose there's any chance of this thread being brought back to life, is there? Would love to hear you two talk up some more classics. A discussion on a director or subgenre sounds great. :yup:

[MovieMan8877445]

I know, this was actually pretty interesting. Maybe you can discuss some films that came out recently that you two might've enjoyed?

[Yoda]

I'd be all about that. :up:

[mark f]

I'd say that it's up to Holds. I'm on summer vacation. At least, I have no summer school job at the moment since my school isn't doing it for budgetary reasons.

[iluv2viddyfilms]

meow :dizzy: