The Religion thread [Archive]

The Silver Bullet

12-13-01, 01:29 AM

But just like most books, it's only a book.
You can't trust the story. You honestly don't believe that a man worked the earth changing water into wine and making blind men see and lame men walk do you? I mean, I 100% trust that Jesus existed, I believe he walked the Earth preaching God's word and so forth.

And what about the Old Testament?
Noah lived to HOW old? 900-and-something?!
I mean I think what DOES matter and what you CAN trust is the themes and the morals and the messages in between the lines of the bible. It is not a book that was written by God, it's a third person perspective for a lot of it on things that were happening around them.

Basically, bar a few pivotal facts [Jesus / his message], you got to remember, it's basically a fictional work that embodies the Holy message that Jesus was preaching.

I don't know how to carry it further, except in saying it is scientifically PROVEN that some of these things COULD not happen. Now, I have faith. I don't necicarilly believe in say those statues of the virgin Mary crying [virgin mary, now there's an exagerattion -- probably] but I believe in miracles, but I don't believe in Adam and Eve being there smack bang.

Where was evolution? Where were the dinosaurs when God was, well, playing God? I mean the MESSAGES are great, trust them, they're the basis of our faith, but along the lines we've taken everything else around it LITERALLY.

I don't think we were supposed to.

Note:
There is a great book called "Joshua : The Man They Called Jesus". I'm yet to read it, but it basically puts a scientific spin on the whole thing. And from what I've heard it IS amazing.

Yoda

12-13-01, 01:45 AM

Well, naturally, not all of The Bible is literal...but I think much more of it is than you're giving it credit for. Yes, scientifically, water cannot be turned into wine...IMO, though, that's not really what I would call a "hole" in the logic of The Bible.

Evolution, I do not believe in. Well, I should clarify: MACROevolution I do not believe in. Any fool can see that microevolution is happening all around us at this very moment. But to answer your question simply: yes, I believe in basically all of those things. It's hard for us to imagine, though, because things like that don't happen anymore. By the time any of us are old enough to discuss such things, the laws of physics are so ground into us that it, at first glance, makes little sense to believe in such things.

Let me add, for now, that I LOVE scientific progress, as long as it's morals. I believe that God wants us to study this world and learn whatever we can from it. At the same time, however, I think we know, frankly, SQUAT, in comparison to what we can potentially know, or WILL eventually know.

The Silver Bullet

12-13-01, 03:37 AM

Jesus made a blind man see.
Jesus turned water to wine.
Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

Mary was a virgin when she had J.C

Joesph was a carpenter.

The way I see it, bar one fact on there, everything else is a basically, in a way, a fabrication to make the Bible more exciting. I know that sounds weird, but basically they're like filler around the themes of the book.

Religion IS a bunch of ideas that people live by, not a bunch of stories. Although I believe in Jesus as the bloke who brought these ideas to people, I believe that the crap based around him was means to an end.

I'm not disputing what the guy apparently said, I'm disputing what the guy apparently DID.

Sir Toose

12-13-01, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by TWTCommish
Well, naturally, not all of The Bible is literal...but I think much more of it is than you're giving it credit for. Yes, scientifically, water cannot be turned into wine...

Firstly... so much of the Christian religion is centered around faith. How do we know that some of the things that were put into the bible were not put there to test our faith? This makes sense to me and it explains a lot.

I should say that I am not a member of any organized church. I am a church of one, as I don't need any middlemen in my relationship with God. I don't question the bible nor do I really read it quite honestly. I have read it in the past, and been schooled on it in the past and have forged my own personal relationship with God as I interpret him to be.

I don't question the bible because I have arrived at that point in my life when I understand that there are things I will never know. The older I get I realize that for every one thing that you truly master there are 10 things that you have discovered on the path and no one has time to catch up with it all.

It all boils down to being the best that you can be. You honor yourself and you honor God (if you so believe) by loving/caring/listening/etc. I continue to make more mistakes every day than I can even apologize for but I have faith that in the end vastly more people will be helped by me than harmed by me.

Now, TWT, on to your second point. There is much in the ancient world that modern science cannot decipher. The astronomy of the ancients, the construction techniques of the ancients etc. Did you know that the Egyptians had batteries? That's not such a leap scientifically... clay pot, a piece of iron for the core, dump in some wine and you got it. What is a leap is trying to imagine what spurned the thought process to create it in the first place... and what did they use them for? Also, when the Greeks built boat launches they had formulated concrete that would harden and remain durable (still standing) under water... we can't do this today. My point here is that you can't use today's reasoning/values etc to try to figure out yesterday... it's all speculation.

There's my penny's worth....

spudracer

12-13-01, 10:13 AM

And a good point Toose...

To consider what is in the Bible to be false is a little crazy. Do we question the era in which Dinosaur's roamed the Earth? No, because we have proof they existed and were wiped out. We have proof that Jesus walked the Earth, Noah built an ark, etc.

There is a mountain over in the Middle East in which the top of it is smooth. This is believed to be where Moses got the Ten Commandments. There are also other facts around the area of this mountain in which gives more fact to their being a Moses, a Ten Commandments, just like as stated in the Bible.

Maybe some of it didn't happen, but for the most part, you shouldn't dismiss something simply because it sounds a little impossible. A lot of the events that occured in the Bible DID happen. Just because it was before most of anything's time, it still could have happened.

So, if don't believe a story in the Bible, you aren't relying fully on God and his power. If you question an event as to wether it happened or not, you need to look deeper into the #1 Bestseller of All Time. :D

Yoda

12-13-01, 10:31 AM

I understand what you're saying Silver. I simply disagree. I think it's nothing more than you, and others, having trouble comprehending something completely beyond all that you've ever known. Sometimes I feel the same way...but if you're going to believe in an all-powerful God, why is it so hard to believe that He would be capable of those things?

Firstly... so much of the Christian religion is centered around faith. How do we know that some of the things that were put into the bible were not put there to test our faith? This makes sense to me and it explains a lot.

We don't know...but from what The Bible says, I seriously doubt that a large chunk of it is nothing more than an illustration. We don't KNOW much at all.

I should say that I am not a member of any organized church. I am a church of one, as I don't need any middlemen in my relationship with God. I don't question the bible nor do I really read it quite honestly. I have read it in the past, and been schooled on it in the past and have forged my own personal relationship with God as I interpret him to be.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I think it's very plainly best to socialize with other Christians...though I wouldn't call it necessary. I cannot say I like the "this is between me and him" thing, because more often than not (though not always, mind you) it is followed to make amends for some sin that person does not want to stop, I think. They feel that they can make some "deal" with God...He lets them get away with indulging in some vice of theirs, and in return, they act really, really nice to people around them...but I think some people forget that it starts and ends with God. Simply being nice to people throughout your life is another story altogether.

Now, TWT, on to your second point. There is much in the ancient world that modern science cannot decipher. The astronomy of the ancients, the construction techniques of the ancients etc. Did you know that the Egyptians had batteries? That's not such a leap scientifically... clay pot, a piece of iron for the core, dump in some wine and you got it. What is a leap is trying to imagine what spurned the thought process to create it in the first place... and what did they use them for? Also, when the Greeks built boat launches they had formulated concrete that would harden and remain durable (still standing) under water... we can't do this today. My point here is that you can't use today's reasoning/values etc to try to figure out yesterday... it's all speculation.

I don't see what you're saying...today's reasoning is a subjective way to put it. Example: some of today's scientific techniques will be tomorrow's laughingstock. If we're talking about basic logic, though, there's no reason we can't try to apply it today to The Bible.

I'm glad that you at least acknowledge that there's so much we do not know. Fact of the matter is that no matter what you believe, you believe it on Faith. You cannot avoid Faith, unless you believe in nothing, and even then, you're having Faith that it's okay for you not to believe in anything at all. I've talked to people online who put ALL their Faith in science...the person I'm thinking of is no one any of you know, I don't think, but he's said some very disturbing things about he would apparently run things if in charge. In 100 years, some of the things he has Faith in will likely be disproven.

On the flip side, some Christians mutter to themselves, over and over, that "God will provide," not realizing all along that they're completely misunderstanding just what that is supposed to mean. It means 1) That God provides for us here on Earth by, usually, enabling us to provide for ourselves. It is not good to sit around doing nothing, waiting for God to provide, and 2) That God, more importantly, provides for us beyond this life. In comparison to the fate of our soul, our life here is amazingly insignificant.

jungerpants

12-13-01, 11:39 AM

I have two questions:

1) Why has the Christian church and religion become so commercialized and, in my opinion, deviated from what it really should be?

2) Why, in the past, have those in power turned to violence to convert people to Christianity? a la the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition

I actually am curious to know what someone of that faith thinks about this stuff. Thanks :D

Yoda

12-13-01, 11:49 AM

1) Why has the Christian church and religion become so commercialized and, in my opinion, deviated from what it really should be?
Because people are fallible, and any large organization will become corrupt to a degree. You might as well ask why people are greedy sometimes: that's just the way people are.

2) Why, in the past, have those in power turned to violence to convert people to Christianity? a la the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.
Well, first off, the Crusades are commonly misused in religious debates. Most people don't realize that they were merely a counter-attack to many REPEATED attacks against the Christians. They, unfortunately, responded just as cruelly...but they did not simply decide to scour the countryside, forcing people into conversion. They were fighting back, and took it too far.

As for the other instances: because they're power-hungry people. Such people exist in all walks of life. Christians certainly hold no monopoly on manipulating others and trying to gain power...many people try to discredit Christianity because of some of the horrible things connected to it...but those are flaws of man, not of God. Not of Christianity. Christianity preaches against murdering people who will not convert. It says to not waste your time if someone refuses to listen to your advice and preaching concerning God. It does not tell you to berade them and kill them if they resist, as far as I know.

jungerpants

12-13-01, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by TWTCommish
Because people are fallible, and any large organization will become corrupt to a degree. You might as well ask why people are greedy sometimes: that's just the way people are.

Sorry, maybe I mis-phrased that question. I'm not questioning whether or not people are greedy in any faith. Why have watered down views of the religion? aka the Picture Bible. Yah, you could say it's for kids, but to me it seems like a commercialization of the religion. Isn't the purpose of Christmas to celebrate the birth of Christ? (Interesting side note... many people don't realize that Dec 25th isn't the real birth of Christ, rather a date which was a holiday for a Pagan society whose king converted his country to Christianity.) Ask any kid what Christmas is about, its Santa Claus and his elves. It doesn't occur to me off the top of my head how a big fat man in a red suit relates to the teachings of Jesus.

Christians certainly hold no monopoly on manipulating others and trying to gain power...many people try to discredit Christianity because of some of the horrible things connected to it...but those are flaws of man, not of God. Not of Christianity.

One of the most important things in my faith, Judaism, says that man is created in the image of G-d. I'm not in any way trying to say that all people who commit acts of evil or manipulate others are Christian, because it's definitely not true. "Evil" exists everywhere.

Funny Onion article about this sort of stuff:
http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/god_clarifies_dont_kill.html

Sir Toose

12-13-01, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by TWTCommish
We don't know...but from what The Bible says, I seriously doubt that a large chunk of it is nothing more than an illustration. We don't KNOW much at all.

We agree

Originally posted by TWTCommish

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I think it's very plainly best to socialize with other Christians...though I wouldn't call it necessary. I cannot say I like the "this is between me and him" thing, because more often than not (though not always, mind you) it is followed to make amends for some sin that person does not want to stop, I think. They feel that they can make some "deal" with God...He lets them get away with indulging in some vice of theirs, and in return, they act really, really nice to people around them...but I think some people forget that it starts and ends with God. Simply being nice to people throughout your life is another story altogether.

Organized religion to me has proven to be as corrupt as anything else. I've been to so many churches and they're all about the same thing... socializing, making business deals, collecting $ to build an ever grander house of worship. There is no real soul searching, you have to take that on yourself. I am not at all like your example. I don't make deals with God. I believe from the heart what I wrote and I'm not nice to people to atone for something I have done. I do it because I feel it's right... we were placed here to help carry each other as well as make a personal journey. I'm not perfect, there are those I would not help, but that is a flaw within me.

Originally posted by TWTCommish

I don't see what you're saying...today's reasoning is a subjective way to put it. Example: some of today's scientific techniques will be tomorrow's laughingstock. If we're talking about basic logic, though, there's no reason we can't try to apply it today to The Bible.

I'm saying that we cannot understand the reasoning of ancient peoples because we can't see the world from their perspective. What they perceived to be magic we see as everyday science. When they see oceans parting we say "well coincidentally a tidal wave can be proven to have occurred at almost precisely that time". We can reason that it's coincidence, while the ancients would perceive that that it's an act of God. Some (me included) would say that yeah there was a tidal wave but God caused it.

Originally posted by TWTCommish

I'm glad that you at least acknowledge that there's so much we do not know. Fact of the matter is that no matter what you believe, you believe it on Faith. You cannot avoid Faith, unless you believe in nothing, and even then, you're having Faith that it's okay for you not to believe in anything at all. I've talked to people online who put ALL their Faith in science...the person I'm thinking of is no one any of you know, I don't think, but he's said some very disturbing things about he would apparently run things if in charge. In 100 years, some of the things he has Faith in will likely be disproven.

Agree
Originally posted by TWTCommish

On the flip side, some Christians mutter to themselves, over and over, that "God will provide," not realizing all along that they're completely misunderstanding just what that is supposed to mean. It means 1) That God provides for us here on Earth by, usually, enabling us to provide for ourselves. It is not good to sit around doing nothing, waiting for God to provide, and 2) That God, more importantly, provides for us beyond this life. In comparison to the fate of our soul, our life here is amazingly insignificant.

Well stated. Where's that hand clapping smiley?

Yoda

12-13-01, 12:12 PM

Sorry, maybe I mis-phrased that question. I'm not questioning whether or not people are greedy in any faith. Why have watered down views of the religion? aka the Picture Bible. Yah, you could say it's for kids, but to me it seems like a commercialization of the religion.
I'm not sure about that. I think it DOES go too far some time, but something like The Picture Bible doesn't bother me if it's helping kids to become accustomed to the actual Bible.

Isn't the purpose of Christmas to celebrate the birth of Christ? (Interesting side note... many people don't realize that Dec 25th isn't the real birth of Christ, rather a date which was a holiday for a Pagan society whose king converted his country to Christianity.) Ask any kid what Christmas is about, its Santa Claus and his elves. It doesn't occur to me off the top of my head how a big fat man in a red suit relates to the teachings of Jesus.
I see what you're saying. Well, it seems to me that the secular world has adopted Christmas as it's own holiday, in a way, and most Christians simply follow suit for the sake of normalcy...but yes, it should have a focus on God. I've been to Christmas Eve services, and let me tell you, they're beautiful. The ones I go to light the place with candles, held by those attending, and many people bring bells to ring at the end. It's an amazing experience...and yes, I'm very sad that so many people miss out on it, and treat Christmas as if it were just a giant birthday that applied to everyone.

One of the most important things in my faith, Judaism, says that man is created in the image of G-d. I'm not in any way trying to say that all people who commit acts of evil or manipulate others are Christian, because it's definitely everywhere.
Yes, in His image...no doubt. Naturally, though, we pervert that with our sinful nature.

Thanks for the link. A little extreme, but pretty funny, too. :)

Yoda

12-13-01, 12:20 PM

Organized religion to me has proven to be as corrupt as anything else. I've been to so many churches and they're all about the same thing... socializing, making business deals, collecting $ to build an ever grander house of worship. There is no real soul searching, you have to take that on yourself. I am not at all like your example. I don't make deals with God. I believe from the heart what I wrote and I'm not nice to people to atone for something I have done. I do it because I feel it's right... we were placed here to help carry each other as well as make a personal journey. I'm not perfect, there are those I would not help, but that is a flaw within me.
Well, there's no doubt that many churches have their problems...but I can't say I agree with simply dismissing them altogether (though I'm not even sure if that's what you're doing, based on what you've said). I go to church regularly...I just don't get caught up in all that mess. I tithe, but I don't pour out all I own to them just because they ask for it. I don't go to all their little activities and events. Church provides a place where I can worship openly and audibly...I think there's lots of value in that. Worshipping by yourself, to me, is a short-term fix if you sleep in, or feel sick...not a long-term thing.

I'm saying that we cannot understand the reasoning of ancient peoples because we can't see the world from their perspective. What they perceived to be magic we see as everyday science. When they see oceans parting we say "well coincidentally a tidal wave can be proven to have occurred at almost precisely that time". We can reason that it's coincidence, while the ancients would perceive that that it's an act of God. Some (me included) would say that yeah there was a tidal wave but God caused it.
I see what you mean. Well, in that specific example, I think it HAS to be some kind of miracle...I mean, a tidal wave alone doesn't sound like enough to allow them all to cross...but I see your point.

Where's that hand clapping smiley?
I'm working on it. :)

Sir Toose

12-13-01, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by TWTCommish

Church provides a place where I can worship openly and audibly...I think there's lots of value in that. Worshipping by yourself, to me, is a short-term fix if you sleep in, or feel sick...not a long-term thing.

To me, I am more open and willing to admit and atone for my faults by myself. If I have questions I seek counsel from a friend who also happens to be a pastor.

Now we're just down to geography... here or there you either try your best to walk the walk or you don't.

Yoda

12-13-01, 02:42 PM

No one's saying you need to go to church and confess, publicly, all you have done. That'd be weird, at best. :) I've found, however, that I behave much better if I have that reminder...that weekly visit to God's House. There are some things I don't enjoy in Church...I don't like it when we confess as a group. IMO, that should be silence, wherein each person can confess privately in their minds, to God. Confession of sin is the only aspect of worship that I think has a reason to be private.

Sir Toose

12-13-01, 02:51 PM

God's house is in my heart bruddah. It ain't made of wood and concrete....

Yoda

12-13-01, 02:58 PM

I expected you to say something like that. I set 'em up, you knock 'em down. :) I think it's for the best to go to Church...It allows you to worship regularly and formally...and things tend to take on a new life when done formally, IMO. I can't get up at 7AM now to save my life, but I used to do it everyday for school. That sort of thing. :) In my case, and in the cases of those that I know, going to church fairly regularly helps to keep me aware and devout.

Sir Toose

12-13-01, 03:30 PM

Hey... if you're undisciplined in your devotion and need the structure I can dig it. :D

I am joking so don't get your flannel panties in a wad... :)

The Silver Bullet

12-13-01, 09:02 PM

Why DO you need the structure?
Isn't that a whole thing of faith too?

If it's not drummed into you your going to lose some of it: isn't that doubting your faith in the worst possible way of all? What security does an often very lonley seeming building hold?

Yoda

12-13-01, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by The Silver Bullet
Why DO you need the structure?
Isn't that a whole thing of faith too?

If it's not drummed into you your going to lose some of it: isn't that doubting your faith in the worst possible way of all? What security does an often very lonley seeming building hold?

You're all questions, no answers, it seems. :) I never said I needed it...PLEASE stop talking in extremes all the time. I find that encouragement and fellowship with other Christians helps me out...the same way people don't go to Alcoholics Anonymous by themselves...they work on their problem with other people. I also don't know what you consider a Church to be often very lonely. There have been many stretches where I've gone without Church, and I do not fall into all my old habits and vices or anything like that...but I do find that the reminder is a helpful one.

The Silver Bullet

12-13-01, 09:32 PM

I'm only talking in extremes because you unintentionally force me to. :)

I'm not talking bout you personally, I'm talking about the generalised group who feel the need for the security of Church. That's crap. As I said before, isn't that the biggest doubt of one's faith of all?

And I don't nesicarilly mean Church the building is a lonley place, as much as it doesn't deserve ANY of the importance we mould around it. It's a man-made building, not the house of God. It's only the H.O.G because we say it is. Did God personally bless it? It's as Holy as a brothel for Christ sake. Just because people gather to worship in the one place doesn't mean it's Holy. We only say it is. Apparently it makes us feel better.

Yoda

12-13-01, 09:40 PM

I don't force you into anything man. When I say I enjoy something, or find that it to be helpful, you say "Why do you NEED it?"

I'm not talking bout you personally, I'm talking about the generalised group who feel the need for the security of Church. That's crap. As I said before, isn't that the biggest doubt of one's faith of all?
I don't really understand what you mean by "biggest doubt of one's faith," but yes, anyone who only follows Christianity because of a Church, while quite likely saved, would do good to re-examine themselves. I think God wants us to get together and share our Faith with each other...I think the Alcoholics Anonymous analogy is perfect: we're addicted to sin. It's easier to get over such things with the support of others trying to do the same.

And I don't nesicarilly mean Church the building is a lonley place, as much as it doesn't deserve ANY of the importance we mould around it. It's a man-made building, not the house of God. It's only the H.O.G because we say it is. Did God personally bless it? It's as Holy as a brothel for Christ sake. Just because people gather to worship in the one place doesn't mean it's Holy. We only say it is. Apparently it makes us feel better.
I completely, 100% disagree. A Church is indeed a Holy place. I do not at all recall what The Bible says, specifically, about Churches, and how God views them, but I do recall times at which He referred to it as His House...or, at the very least, implied that it wasn't just some old building. Sure, it's man-made...but it is indeed Holier than a brothel...or a strip-club.

OG-

12-13-01, 11:52 PM

K, this has nothing to do with religion, since I can barely get on anymore and don't post much, but when this thread start I went back to read the old evolution thread (http://www.movieforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=327&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) and it brought back soo many memories!!!

Firstly, frappydoo.com!!! HO MAN!!:) I really miss some of those posters. And look, theres PooPooMaster!!! And Miriam posted one of, if not the longest, posts in post history!!! Gah...memories! I wish frappydoo were still up so we could read the rest, it went on for many more pages over there.:)

Ah....Memories....:) Sorry for interupting.:D

OH SNAP!!!:D Just found that FrappyDoo is still up, at least the forums are, so heres the link to the original debate: http://www.frappydoo.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=330&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Good times, good times....:) :) :)

spudracer

12-14-01, 12:13 AM

I am starting a new evolution thread as not to desturb a classic debate. So if you want to talk Evolution...go here (http://www.movieforums.net/showthread.php?threadid=1441).

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 08:29 AM

Although I'm willing to go on about why a Church is just a heap of mortar and brick with you TWT, I've found something more interesting which isn't based on something you've said, but rather the church etc. Not even an argument, but your views I would like to hear...

Why is God always referred to as "HE"?

Sir Toose

12-14-01, 09:33 AM

Actually SB, I said that a church is bricks and mortar. TWT said that the group experience within those confines is meaningful to him. Personally I don't need a house of worship...TWT says he enjoys the experience of a house of worship. Like I said, that's just geography... the basic ideals of belief are the same whether it's done privately or publicly.

Why is God referred to as "He"?

My personal opinion is that due to a long history the Christian religion is abound with tradition. Can you imagine the founders referring to God as "She" given the social position of women at the time? The only alternative is "It" and who wants to worship an it?

You know, this brings about a story about tradition that maybe does not fit here but it was a meaningful lesson in life to me so I will share it with anyone who cares to read it. This has nothing to do with the above paragraph so please don't link the two. This is a tangent as in "I have gone off on one...."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once there was a Christmas party. In the kitchen preparing a lovely holiday meal were an old woman, a middle aged woman, and a young woman.

The old woman was actually sitting in a cozy chair in the corner with a cup of tea watching the other two, who were coincidentally her daughter and granddaughter.

The middle aged woman asked the young woman to prepare the ham as she did every Christmas. The young woman got the ham from the refrigerator, put it on the cutting board and began to slice the ends off the ham. She paused in the midst of slicing and asked her mother "mom, why do we cut the ends off of the ham every year? What is the purpose of this?" The mother, looking somewhat bewildered said "I don't know... we'll have to ask my mother as she was the one who taught me." Mother and daughter went to the corner and approached the grandmother (she was hard of hearing so they had to do it like this :) ). The middle aged woman asked the grandmother "mom, for 60 years we have cut the ends off of the ham before preparing it for Christmas dinner... why do we do this?"

The grandmother, chuckling, replied..."because dear, the pot I always had was very small and that was the only way the ham would fit in it."

I don't necessarily apply this to religion... but in all other aspects of life beware "tradition". Just because something has always been done some way doesn't make it right today.

spudracer

12-14-01, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by The Silver Bullet
Why is God always referred to as "HE"?

Well, Jesus is HIS son. So, I've always gone by the God and Jesus are one in the same. Truth is, no one knows what God is. We know he is a very powerful spirit, but don't know his shape simply because, his shape can be anything. I think that's it. Haven't gotten into a debate like this for a while so kinda rusty on the facts.

Yoda

12-14-01, 10:38 AM

Spud's right. The Bible refers to Him as He/Him, if I remember correctly, so it makes perfect sense. You've touched a nerve of mine, though: I hate it when someone asks that question. I remember being in some retreat thing where someone asked "Why is God always thought of as a man," and some other girl cheered. Man that p*ssed me off. Read Genesis, at least, if you want to spout off like that. It's incredibly obvious as to why He is referred to that way.

And yeah, OG-: James hasn't re-opened the boards, but he has made them viewable again, in case anyone is interested. Man, what a LOOOOOONG time ago.

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 06:36 PM

Toose, what I mean is I agree with you wholreheartedly and I was willing to keep on arguing about it.

Others, you still seem to be saying that it's obvious why God would be a he, but I haven't heard the obvious part. Could you just reiterate exactly WHY it's normal that He be called He?

Yoda

12-14-01, 06:37 PM

He is referrered to as Father and Son...not as Mother and Daughter. :)

spudracer

12-14-01, 08:22 PM

There ya go....

Kinda obvious though SB. Mary was pregnant with the child of God, why would God then be a woman?

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 09:00 PM

Lol.
Why laughing? Just so you know, on most other boards I'm referred to as SB, although here it was always Silver or Bullet, now finally I'm being called SB. Yes, I'm odd, but I found it amusing.

That's logistical though....
There was no sperm involved in creating Jesus, there was no IVF or sex, she was a virgin remember, who said God didn't just fill her with something. Only a woman has mothering instincts like God has shown. And just because, Chris, he was referred by the MEN who wrote the Bible as a guy doesn't mean HE is one....

spudracer

12-14-01, 09:51 PM

True, Mary did give birth as a virgin, BUT, it also says at the beginning of the Bible in the very first chapter, in some of the very first verses, that God created man in His image. He then took a rib of Adam's to make Eve.

Yoda

12-14-01, 09:54 PM

Yes, exactly. All accounts seem to show Him as a man on earth as well, don't they? So if you want to say that He was not a man, you have to tell me that every He/His/Him in The Bible is incorrect, and that His earthly form was not an indicator, either. Seems like a big stretch to me.

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 10:05 PM

Okay the Adam thing is good enough for me, but something annoys me about what you just said, Chris.

Why can't parts of the bible be completley false?
I am one for extremes, and I'm asking you to think of them for a moment. Why can't something in the Bible be completley FALSE because of the biased views of it's authors?

Yoda

12-14-01, 10:13 PM

Well, first off, I wasn't saying that you had to believe The Bible was all true to see that Jesus is indeed a He...just that it's a stretch to assume that it's all wrong. The Bible cannot be false because it was divinely inspired. I'm sure you disagree...but I can live with that. Anyway, even if you do believe that it was nothing more than various people's interpretations, it's incredibly unlikely that it came out "completely FALSE," to use your words.

spudracer

12-14-01, 10:14 PM

Because a lot of the stuff that did happen in the Bible is true. Maybe some of the stories didn't actually happen the way they are told, but they still happened. There are rock formations, all kinds of geological things that just can't be explained simply because something happened there that has no explanation. I have mentioned the smooth rock thing a couple of times now, and there is more to it, but I mean stuff like this just doesn't go dismissed and forgotten.

Are you saying you don't believe a large boat carrying every animal on the planet for fourty days and nights while it rained actually happened?

Or how bout, three men walking into a furnace to be unharmed by the heat from inside.

These are works of God, and of no other being. You can have your God of wind, God of fire, but they are no comparison to the Almighty God. Much more powerful than the 5 Gods your religion might entail. I'm not directing this to anyone just saying.

You can't dismiss anything in the Bible. It's just not possible. It's like you writing your life story and someone coming up questioning it because a part of it doesn't make any sense.

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 10:44 PM

Well, first off, I wasn't saying that you had to believe The Bible was all true to see that Jesus is indeed a He

First off, I wasn't disputing that Jesus was a guy.

The Bible cannot be false because it was divinely inspired. I'm sure you disagree...

You're right. I am going to disagree.
How come there are four [in places] totally different accounts of the life of Jesus, the gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. No, I'm not saying parts aren't true and what's more I'm not disputing [all of] the miracles that you read about. I'm disputing that not everything in there can be taken, excuse the pun, as Gospel.

Are you saying you don't believe a large boat carrying every animal on the planet for fourty days and nights while it rained actually happened?

No, I believe that.

Or how bout, three men walking into a furnace to be unharmed by the heat from inside.

Just so I can look it up, not arguing with you saying it's not in there, but where is that?

I'm not directing this to anyone just saying.

Thankyou. That's kind.

Just a bit off topic, as in I'm not talkign to the debate at hand, but I'm going to go off and read parts of the Bible while I'm away, just so I can come back and argue some more.

Also, I'd just like to say that I think some of the best parts of the Bible are in fact the Psalms. This is what religion is about it's the message not the oft outrageous story's that are there to grab the readers attention. I'm not saying I don't trust that some of those things happened, but our MAN God created the world in seven days and Noah lived to be 900. Yeeeeeah.

Are there any atheists out there who want to agree with me?
Please?

Yoda

12-14-01, 11:01 PM

There are four different accounts because The Bible shows us things from many perspectives. I really don't understand why you do, in fact, believe in an all-powerful God, yet you don't believe that he would work any of these miracles, etc. Seems to me that once you've accepted Jesus as real, the rest is a given...the leap for most people is accepting Him in the first place.

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 11:06 PM

Pardon?

I didn't really understand that, sorry.
I believe he worked some of the miracles. SOME.

Yoda

12-14-01, 11:10 PM

Ok, then why some and not others? What is it about the ones you don't believe that causes you not to believe them?

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 11:23 PM

I really don't understand why you do, in fact, believe in an all-powerful God, yet you don't believe that he would work any of these miracles, etc. Seems to me that once you've accepted Jesus as real, the rest is a given...the leap for most people is accepting Him in the first place.

I don't really get what you mean right there. Him as in God or Him as in the late JC?

Regarding the miracles, I'd have to read some of it again, it just strikes me that some of these things have been fabricated. Look, I'll have to re-read some bits, but I will come back. I really just need PROOF. I believe in Noah's ark. I get that. I think that happened. Because we have the table top mountain and some wreckage.

It's just me. I have faith, I don't need proof the JC rose again, 'cos I believe that. Same with the tongues of fire. And I accept the messages of the Bible, I think what Christ said was pure and good and I get that and I apply it as often as I can into my own life, the goodness and so forth. But yeah.

I'm sorry if you can't understand that, I don't consider myself a very good Christian, but I do try.

Yoda

12-14-01, 11:31 PM

Well, it's not for me to pass any kind of final judgement on your worth as a follower of Christ. In the VERY end, it's His call. I don't know if a sinner who knows they sin, but makes no effort to correct their haibts, is saved or not. I really don't. I think they are...but yes, in the end, a lot of this is guesswork. Educated guesswork...but still guesswork. That's why I don't think you can hold out for proof...otherwise you won't believe plenty of things that are likely true, but simply lack proof.

In a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt is a nice line to draw. With matters of God and such, I've come to the conclusion that I don't 100% know on most counts, and I never will, so all I can do is try to figure it out, and make the best guess possible when it comes to in-between matters like individual miracles.

Quite frankly, I see it as one way or the other: either you accept The Bible, or you don't. If you end up picking and choosing parts of it, you're left with what one preacher I heard speak calls a "paper-doll Bible," which is really nothing more than your own personal Bible, seeing as how it's based on the way YOU see things. It's not really The Bible anymore if you cut this or ditch that. Now, I realize this doesn't really apply to you, because you think it's more about symbolism...but thinking of it as symbolism, and thinking of it as untrue or incorrect...well, they're no more than a stone's throw from each other.

Oh, and I was referring to God, not JC (that abbreviation cracks me up. :D).

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 11:34 PM

Is it wrong to have a paper doll Bible though?
Or not go to Church?
But still believe?

You got me scared that I'm going to hell.
Mind you, I also had a very good idea for a film.

Yoda

12-14-01, 11:42 PM

Yes, I think a paper-doll Bible is wrong. See, with that, you're not learning much new, I don't think. You're passing judgement on The Bible, and what you think of it all. I see The Bible as something that teaches us...that passes judgement on our actions...not the other way around.

Church? Well, The Bible says not to "forsake the gathering" of fellow Christians. It's not incontravertable proof, but I think it's fairly clear cut. Going to Church is not as important as confessing of your sins, asking for forgiveness, and dedicated your life to Christ...but I do think it's important. People have surely converted on their deathbeds, having never gone to Church out of love for God, and still have been saved...so I wouldn't call it a requirement anymore than I would baptism...but I do think it's something Christians should strive for.

This is something we're all very guilty of: trying to get away with whatever we can concerning God, rather than trying to do whatever we can to avoid even the potential of a problem. I do it all the time...if I feel sick Sunday morning, I'm very tempted to use it as an excuse to skip Church. I think of it was a way out. It's just something I'm going to have to work on. Hopefully, one day, I'll dedicate more time to pleasing God than I will to finding loopholes in His Word.

I'm quite scared myself...death is scary, I once heard someone say, because it's one thing you MUST do alone. There's no possible way that we know of to bring anyone along for the ride. It's just you and eternity. That's damn scary. I imagine very few Christians are so sure in their Faith to be anything less than terrified of death.

What's the idea for the film, out of curiousity? (sorry to be so long-winded, BTW.)

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 11:50 PM

A guy dies at eighty.
He robbed an old woman when he was 17.
He gets to hell, and he's really suprised because after that he became good and went to Church a lot of the time.

He get's to hell and he is 17 again.

That's where I was up to.

:D

Yoda

12-14-01, 11:52 PM

Interesting. What's the premise, though? Is he 17 when he gets there because he never really changed? Or is the premise that that one mistake screwed him for eternity (bummer)? :)

The Silver Bullet

12-14-01, 11:58 PM

The second one is the premise.
Screwed if I can work out a plot though.

I like the thought of finding religion and God while in hell. I think that could be promising.

Anyways,

TWT [and others] what are your views on say, christian mythology then? The war of the angels and so forth. The kind of stuff that the offered up for a bit in "Dogma" before you turned it off.

;)

Yoda

12-15-01, 12:07 AM

That IS really interesting...the thought that, even in Hell, you can be saved. There would have to be more to it, in a way, though...because I imagine most people would then get to Hell, and make up their minds on what to do pretty quick. :D Hell would have to be different...sort of like (I think it was) C.S. Lewis: Hell is just dull, and repetitive, and QUIETLY miserable for all time. Not all screaming and horrible searing pain. Hell would contain not people wishing they had gone the other way, but people stubborn with sin, who don't regret going astray.

I like the basic concept you're talking about. I really do. I'm a COMPLETE sucker for movies about religion, or the apocalypse, etc. I keep thinking movies like "Stigmata" and "End of Days" are gonna be awesome, but so many dissapoint. :)

Concerning Christian mythology: I admittedly know less about that I ought to. I do think that most such things, though, are basically true.

spudracer

12-15-01, 01:09 AM

TWT, the three men walking into the furnace, not sure the chapter or verse, can't even remember their names right now, but they were thrown in there because they would not worship the idol of their king or a false God or something. They got thrown in the furnace, prayed the entire time, and exited without a burn on them.

7thson

08-17-05, 10:22 PM

Equilibrium

08-17-05, 10:38 PM

I thought I would bump this thread to get the newer members perspective on Religion. I was raised a Babtist and I hold on to a lot of the basic principles: women's rights, belief in Jesus Christ, so on and so on. I have been through some very trying times over the last year or so and I must say that religion did not seem to help me out. I am sure that is my fault. This is not to say I have lost faith, not at all. I just think that sometimes we lean to heavily on the crutch.

7thson, I have been following your story as closely as a fellow online forum member can. I know you have been through some hard times, but forgive me when I say...you'redisillusioning yourself into thinking religion is useless. I think just by posting here, you are hanging on to religion and theres something inside of you that can't completely write it off.

Everyone goes through trying times, I'm going through a very harsh one myself. In the end those of us who managed to keep their faith throughout, are those who pass "the test".

Admittedly mine is failing right now but at least i know and hope better days will come...

7thson

08-18-05, 03:32 AM

7thson, ...you're disillusioning yourself into thinking religion is useless.
Oh I do not think it is useless at all. Otherwise, you are right, I probably would not be posting here or anywhere for that matter. I just do not think it is the answer to everything. At some point a person has to stand up for themselves and that includes without having a crutch of anykind. Faith can only carry the burden for so long, sometimes you have to carry it yourself. :indifferent:

Sexy Celebrity

08-18-05, 09:21 AM

Everyone goes through trying times, I'm going through a very harsh one myself. In the end those of us who managed to keep their faith throughout, are those who pass "the test".
I really do not understand this "faith is a test" thing. Why have a freakin' test? Why should 6 billion people on this planet - not to mention all of the other people who have lived on this planet since its beginning, including cavemen (now that's A LOT...) have to take this faith test? What is God getting out of this? Does it fuel the fire of the bright light that you supposedly see when you die? Make it more powerful? Make things... better on Earth?

You know what, maybe I'll believe that. See, I look inward for spiritual help. My answer came to me when writing out my question. Faith empowers "God" (the white light, the supreme cosmic force).

blibblobblib

08-18-05, 09:47 AM

I don't think Cavemen had any faith. Maybe they had monkey faith but definatly not the faith of God.

Sexy Celebrity

08-18-05, 09:59 AM

I don't think Cavemen had any faith. Maybe they had monkey faith but definatly not the faith of God.
Well, then, where has the monkey gone to since he apparently doesn't ask that we have faith in him anymore?

blibblobblib

08-18-05, 10:04 AM

Sexy Celebrity

08-18-05, 10:13 AM

It's like fairies. Everytime you say you don't believe in monkeys, one of them dies. But if you clap they come back to life! As cavemen were primitive, they didn't know how to clap, so their monkey God died :(
::::claps::::

http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00201/Jessica_Simpson_201344m.jpg

!?!?

blibblobblib

08-18-05, 10:28 AM

Wow!...thats a little strange though, i think youve discovered the missing link! All bow down to monkey God SIMPSON!

undercoverlover

08-18-05, 04:38 PM

Anonymous Last

08-18-05, 05:08 PM

i don't believe in religion, i like to think we're here alone and we've gotta figure it out on our own.

one thing that always got me about christianity is that if everyone can be forgiven and saved, why is there a need for hell. I know some very smart person might come along and say 'well actually...' but i just like to think ive found a flaw in that great plan.Well actually...it comes down to when God gave some smack down to some angels that fell in a pit near New Mexico.

I don't know the full story so don't quote me but I think hell had something to do with someone confrontining God in his office....whoa...

Nope, I'm sorrry it was Palpatine confronting the Jedi in that 3rd movie that came out in 6th place.

For an old guy that bastard moved like smoke, he did!

7thson

08-18-05, 05:20 PM

http://www.geocities.com/tribhis/16.jpghttp://www.geocities.com/tribhis/16.jpg

Equilibrium

08-18-05, 07:28 PM

I really do not understand this "faith is a test" thing. Why have a freakin' test? Why should 6 billion people on this planet - not to mention all of the other people who have lived on this planet since its beginning, including cavemen (now that's A LOT...) have to take this faith test? What is God getting out of this? Does it fuel the fire of the bright light that you supposedly see when you die? Make it more powerful? Make things... better on Earth?

You know what, maybe I'll believe that. See, I look inward for spiritual help. My answer came to me when writing out my question. Faith empowers "God" (the white light, the supreme cosmic force).

If there was no test..and heaven/enlightenment/bliss were all free....then this would be a chaotic world. the test is more a matter of choice...good or evil if you chose good ull get what not all 6 billion +cavemen will get.

Piddzilla

08-19-05, 06:55 AM

Why would anybody deliberately choose "evil"? And isn't choosing "good" for the sake of getting ahead of others really a bad and selfish thing - in other words, an "evil" thing? The definitions of good and evil, if there are any, are not something carved into stone.

I think "the heavenly reward" is an invention to motivate people to try and be nice to each other - with various results of course. Human beings are ultimately, probably to different degrees though, selfish beings and for us to do nice without getting something good in the end seems illogical. The carrot "a better world"... Yeah, whatever. A seat at God's table... LET'S GO DO GOOD!

I wonder... How many people today would devote time and money to helping those in need if not a single soul was made aware of their goodhearted acts?

starrdarcy

08-19-05, 06:17 PM

hahahahaha hell, i think just because you belong to another eligion you don't go to some place to burn in hell for eternity. I don't even be;lieve in it, since i'm sikh, we believe that evil is within humans and can't be simply blamed on a external force know as satan or the devil. After all, we humans are the ones mixing it up all the time.

Equilibrium

08-19-05, 07:40 PM

I wonder... How many people today would devote time and money to helping those in need if not a single soul was made aware of their goodhearted acts?

thats actually a good point..

someone famous once said "the true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him no good"
which is running along the same lines..

we don't know if there is heaven or hell....and whats this crap about good and evil being relative thats the biggest crock of **** i have heard in my life...when u do something out of the goodness of ur heart..u know it...it feels "good" and u do something ****ty u feel guilt and "evil". its doing good despite all the bad and despite the fact that there might not even be aheaven or hell that is the test.

7thson

08-20-05, 12:16 AM

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=5182&stc=1

LordSlaytan

08-20-05, 12:38 AM

I wonder... How many people today would devote time and money to helping those in need if not a single soul was made aware of their goodhearted acts?There are times I do things for needy people on the streets, and never tell a soul. When I manage to keep my mouth shut, it's extremely rewarding, but often enough, I wind up telling somebody what I had done. It's normal to desire validation, it's as human as wanting to help some one, but it robs charity of its power to do good for ones self. Fortunately, the needy still win regardless...if scraps equate winning.

Se7en: I like it, but it's never as simple as that.

Religion has done just as much good as bad, and if it didn't exist, human behavior would still be the same. Religion is often used as an outlet for what is already inside us...blaming it for many of our woes is denial in it's purest form.

EDIT: Boy, do I ever sound like a know-it-all.

Caitlyn

08-20-05, 12:38 AM

I took one of those questionnaires at Belief-net once and according to it, I am 100% Neo-Pagan... :D

LordSlaytan

08-20-05, 12:40 AM

:laugh:

When I joined the Army, they asked my denomination...I said agnostic...my dogtags said Baptist. :rolleyes:

7thson

08-20-05, 12:44 AM

Se7en: I like it, but it's never as simple as that.

Religion has done just as much good as bad, and if it didn't exist, human behavior would still be the same. Religion is often used as an outlet for what is already inside us...blaming it for many of our woes is denial in it's purest form.Not sure if I came off as blaming religion for anything, if I did, I did not mean too. I truly do believe in God and good/evil so on and so on. I just wanted to point out that eventually one must stand on their own, with God at their back, but not in front of them leading the way. I may be wrong in this, and if I am I may burn. Sometimes people do need a crutch, and it is those times when you turn to God, if you believe of course. However if the crutch carries you at all times you get sore armpits. I think God has a sense of humor and I am joking around with most of the things in this thread. I mean look at us men, our testicles on the outside of our bodies just for women to kick....sheshh.....God the joker.:)

LordSlaytan

08-20-05, 12:47 AM

Not sure if I came off as blaming religion for anything, if I did, I did not mean too. I truly do believe in God and good/evil so on and so on. I just wanted to point out that eventually one must stand on their own, with God at their back, but not in front of them leading the way. I may be wrong in this, and if I am I may burn. Sometimes people do need a crutch, and it is those times when you turn to God, if you believe of course. However if the crutch carries you at all times you get sore armpits. I think God has a sense of humor and I am joking around with most of the things in this thread. I mean look at us men, our testicles on the outside of our bodies just for women to kick....sheshh.....God the joker.:)I didn't even think about whether you were blaming, bro...it's just something I was thinking about the other day. Whomever made the pic was blaming, tho'. :yup:

Nice post...funny ending. 5/5!

EDIT: Yeah, I guess I did make it sound like you were...sorry about that. No offence meant, and I know none was taken. :)

Equilibrium

08-20-05, 01:20 AM

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)

LordSlaytan

08-20-05, 01:26 AM

Hheeeyyyyy....never heard that before. I like it.

Piddzilla

08-21-05, 06:09 PM

There are times I do things for needy people on the streets, and never tell a soul. When I manage to keep my mouth shut, it's extremely rewarding, but often enough, I wind up telling somebody what I had done. It's normal to desire validation, it's as human as wanting to help some one, but it robs charity of its power to do good for ones self. Fortunately, the needy still win regardless...if scraps equate winning.

Yes, at first I wrote about that in my post but it was so badly written so I erased it.

Of course people act good on impulse every day. Just like hate and love and envy and all other emotions empathy is something we all carry within ourselves. But my question (which, as you might have guessed, was rethorical) referred to what I see today when many people donate lots of money to charity etc. It just feels like it's somehow as important as, if not even more important than, being good to appear as being good. It's like some materialistic variant of the good old "if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody's there to hear it....." and so on. If nobody knows about how good you are, are you really good then?

"if scraps equate winning".... We kind of enter another discussion here: the pros and cons of charity and perhaps this is not the time nor place... ;D

John McClane

10-25-05, 10:58 PM

Lately I've been having a tough time with my religion. One point I thought I believed in God but, I've always had my doubts. From day one when someone told me a higher purpose created the universe I questioned it. I believe an human would at one point or another have some type of doubts about their beliefs. After reading through this thread and thinking over it all really hard. I've come to relize what my beliefs are. I can thank Lordslaytan's post with the word agnostic. I can finally call myself something besides Christian or Atheist.

adidasss

10-25-05, 11:07 PM

i'm too catholic to be agnostic and too agnostic to be catholic....

John McClane

10-26-05, 01:39 PM

i'm too catholic to be agnostic and too agnostic to be catholic....
Right. It's too early in the morning for sentences like that. :)

chicagofrog

10-26-05, 02:04 PM

i dislike it when religion is synonym of belief in ONE god, or even in godS, as if there were nothing else, and when it's monopolized by christianity...
... then again i'm an evil heathen............

ObiWanShinobi

10-26-05, 02:20 PM

I hate it how religion is so openly being slammed for things that most Christians didn't commit. It is only a small percentage whining about abortion and telling people to turn or burn, these people give Christianity a bad name. Willing to pick a sword to fight Homosexuality or Abortion yet in the clear case of peace they shy away and say "it must be done" when that itself completely contradicts Christianity.

Meanwhile, our liberal leaders are getting less and less religious because liberalism is getting alot less religious. I remember my mother becoming so enthused about her religion whenever she read about JFK she thought Jesus matters.

But now, people like Bill Maher and George Carlin, whilst funny, are completely tearing religion apart. They stereotype religion, and they support activism against it. It's not a harmless joke, but an open call to arms.

Truthfully, I am against Hillary Clinton for her shock ticket against videogames in this next election. I would much rather prefer barack obama who supports more unionization and less trade, but will not sacrifice trade as he realizes it is important.

Whatever the case, I have a feeling I won't be voting in too many elections.

Because if I'm christian in the liberal world I'm an idiot, if I hold liberal views in the Conservative world then I'm not truly Christian.

It's simply dieing out.

Yoda

10-26-05, 02:27 PM

i dislike it when religion is synonym of belief in ONE god, or even in godS, as if there were nothing else, and when it's monopolized by christianity...
... then again i'm an evil heathen............
Huh?

A religion is a belief system. To say you dislike it being a synonym for "belief in ONE god" is simply to dislike such a belief, as far as I can see. Some people believe in a single God, some people believe in many, but ultimately everybody believes that at some point there is "nothing else," yourself included, unless you're on one of those funky trips where you deny the absolute meanings of words.

SamsoniteDelilah

10-26-05, 02:30 PM

...Whatever the case, I have a feeling I won't be voting in too many elections.

Because if I'm christian in the liberal world I'm an idiot, if I hold liberal views in the Conservative world then I'm not truly Christian.

It's simply dieing out.
Why does it matter if the Christians think you're a good christian, if you do? Are you any less smart if the liberals think you're stupid? Voting isn't about aligning yourself with a group. It's about asserting what you believe to be right.

John McClane

10-26-05, 02:41 PM

Why does it matter if the Christians think you're a good christian, if you do? Are you any less smart if the liberals think you're stupid? Voting isn't about aligning yourself with a group. It's about asserting what you believe to be right.
And with that said, I know Hillary Clinton ain't getting my vote. :nope:

chicagofrog

10-26-05, 02:48 PM

Huh?

A religion is a belief system. To say you dislike it being a synonym for "belief in ONE god" is simply to dislike such a belief, as far as I can see. Some people believe in a single God, some people believe in many, but ultimately everybody believes that at some point there is "nothing else," yourself included, unless you're on one of those funky trips where you deny the absolute meanings of words.

sorry,
you're right in that i should have used the word "worship" rather than
"belief". i meant for example Buddhism believes there are gods, but doesn't worship them, since they're part ("victims") of the samsara too, and have a karma.

as for the second part:
your last sentence is just meant to insult me, and you can keep disrespecting me together with all relativists and buddhists etc. as far as you please... proving how narrow-minded you are each time.
by the way in the thread you are referring to i made the effort to answer to all of your arguments, while you stopped doing so, probably keeping your usual feeling of superiority.
i hope you'll get wiser with age.

and words have no absolute meaning.

Anonymous Last

10-26-05, 02:50 PM

I'm curious to what the frog believes in when it comes to faith.

Any faith/belief or non belief? How ever this religion thing may play out in the frog's head. I just want to know where ya comin' from is all.

Splain Lucy!

SamsoniteDelilah

10-26-05, 02:52 PM

sorry,
you're right in that i should have used the word "worship" rather than
"belief". i meant for example Buddhism believes there are gods, but doesn't worship them, since they're part ("victims") of the samsara too, and have a karma.

as for the second part:
your last sentence is just meant to insult me, and you can keep disrespecting me together with all nominalists and buddhists as far as you please... proving how narrow-minded you are each time.
by the way in the thread you are referring to i made the effort to answer to all of your arguments, while you stopped doing so, probably keeping your usual feeling of superiority.
i hope you'll get wiser with age.
What Yoda responded to was your neverending superior tone and dismissive attitude of anyone who doesn't see the world as you do. Stop condemning others as "ignorant" and "narrow minded" and you'll stop having people swipe back at you. That you keep picking fights and then claiming you're being attacked is hardly adult.

You have a level of education about cultures that most here don't. You have knowledge that could further other people's understanding. But you're going to have to stop being a prick if you want to get your point across - unless your main point is that you're cool and we drool. :rolleyes:

That said, Anonymous is on the right road here: rather than pissing on what others believe, how about putting forth what you believe??

chicagofrog

10-26-05, 03:01 PM

What Yoda responded to was your neverending superior tone and dismissive attitude of anyone who doesn't see the world as you do.

i don't see any superior tone in saying i don't like the word (putting the stress where i thought it'd be clear) "*religion* to be synonymous with belief in one god", meaning religion can be polytheism TOO (where does it show disrespect to monotheism, only Yoda and you can say/see, with your blind rancor toward me), among other religions, for example what the dictionary so simplistically names "heathen/pagan" ("not belonging to christianity, judaism or islam"), and, what i reckon you can't deny, many unfortunately don't consider or call "religion", as if this term were reserved to these three religions.
nothing more tolerant than this, even if it wasn't expressed in an optimally clear English, i fear.

your "never-ending superior tone and dismissive tone" accusation has no place here, and is proof again of your incapability of treating people fairly once they've disagreed with you, even far in the past, and your own never-ending accusing people of the sins yourself keep committing. throw the first stone.

Yoda

10-26-05, 03:29 PM

sorry,your last sentence is just meant to insult me, and you can keep disrespecting me together with all relativists and buddhists etc. as far as you please... proving how narrow-minded you are each time.
How you've come to equate disagree with disrespect, I don't know, but I'm not going to be held responsible for the confusion. Also, I know relativists who would probably object to being aligned with some of your views. Not all of them get so kooky over censorship and dictionaries.

In regards to respect, let me simply say this: you have spoken with incredible derision about both my religion and my country. You've clumsily painted large swaths of people with the same brush. Respect is a two-way street, and you're taking up both lanes and using your horn liberally, so stop acting shocked whenever you get rammed into by someone coming the other direction.

by the way in the thread you are referring to i made the effort to answer to all of your arguments, while you stopped doing so, probably keeping your usual feeling of superiority.
i hope you'll get wiser with age.
I would, but given the malleable language of nature it's entirely possible "wise" will mean something else in a couple decades. D'oh.

and words have no absolute meaning.
What? What? I can't understand you. What do all these strange symbols mean? Quisserlfern squibbleblat noxtrumboo.

The idea that words have no "absolute" meaning is technically true, but a tremendous waste of time. We have words to convey ideas. Imperfect as they are, standard definitions with a core meaning are necessary for any meaningful communication to take place. Haggling over what a word rather than discussing the idea it is trying to convey is philosophical masturbation.

Anonymous Last

10-26-05, 03:30 PM

When it comes to faith I guess I look for God on my own sidewalk. I believe in one God... something good for the afterlife. Though I never fell in the arms of any religion. I never felt that I could play well with others when it came to this. So I don't know exactly what you would call that. I just know that I am comfortable with my relationship with God.

chicagofrog

10-26-05, 03:40 PM

Haggling over what a word rather than discussing the idea it is trying to convey is philosophical masturbation.

okay, i confess i am an onanist.

you have spoken with incredible derision about both my religion and my country

i answered to that uncountable times...
as for religion precisely, where did you find any derision of your religion? and if, as i know myself, vehemently denigrated puritanism for example, it's just a bad aspect your religion took, not the religion itself.
or, if you wanna fight Muslim terrorists, i'd accuse you with right to be a anti-muslim extremist?
plus, puritanism is most often christian, but theoretically could be in any other religion too when it stops being tolerant.

Quisserlfern squibbleblat noxtrumboo

now, you know my passion for languages, you mean Yoda!!!, writing that and not naming what language it is!

but again, were you referring to all of my posts the last year and a half, cuz you didn't comment or answer to any of what i posted above.

SamsoniteDelilah

10-26-05, 03:41 PM

I think I've traded in religion for spirituality. I used to be a very devout member of a highly structured religion.

Now though, I think my beliefs are much more personal. I don't know that there is a God, and I don't actually care one way or the other. I've come to understand that most of the old-fashioned truisms attributed to God are really for the best for mankind anyway. So I do what I do based on personal experience, and a desire to live in the best possible way for me and those I love. That means peace, respect, open mindedness, all that crap. :)

There are parts of several religions that I value - the "live and let live" philosophy of Buddhism, for example. And I pick and choose my holidays, too - looking forward to Dia de los Muertos.

Yoda

10-26-05, 03:52 PM

i don't see any superior tone in saying i don't like the word (putting the stress where i thought it'd be clear) "*religion* to be synonymous with belief in one god", meaning religion can be polytheism TOO (where does it show disrespect to monotheism, only Yoda and you can say/see, with your blind rancor toward me), among other religions, for example what the dictionary so simplistically names "heathen/pagan" ("not belonging to christianity, judaism or islam"), and, what i reckon you can't deny, many unfortunately don't consider or call "religion", as if this term were reserved to these three religions.
"yeah well then you, Americans, have a problem with words one encounters only among patriotic dumbos who care more about the surface, i.e. the words used for instance, than the content.
getting all upset about a coupla words you don't like gives you an easy excuse not to read the rest, analyse and discuss it."
I'll give you one guess as to who said that.

Also, I have a question: who are all the "many"s and "they"s? Who are these mythical people mislabeling words in ways that displease you? Are they here on this board? Are they pounding on your door and shoving flyers in your face? Who are these faceless, nameless people that you feel compelled to tell us about at every opportunity?

your "never-ending superior tone and dismissive tone" accusation has no place here, and is proof again of your incapability of treating people fairly once they've disagreed with you
Nonsense. You've said to me that "there's not bigger bigotry than your way of thinking," and you've repeatedly generalized about other cultures and religion (my own culture and religion, especially). We did not imagine these things, and I doubt you've forgotten them, so I'm left to conclude that you know of them, but simply lack the empathy for other points of view that you so strongly demand for your own.

adidasss

10-26-05, 03:59 PM

SamsoniteDelilah

10-26-05, 04:09 PM

do you celebrate christmas?
Sort of. It's more of a Yule thing for me - an end of the year celebration and appreciation for loved ones. I send cards that usually have animals on them and a message about peace, and wishes for a good new year. I make gifts and give them to friends and family. I love christmas caroling, because I love singing with other people and decorating a tree because... I love decorating just about anything. :D And I like the Father Christmas mythology because I like that there are people who do little nice things for other people.

How do you celebrate it? :)

adidasss

10-26-05, 04:18 PM

i asked that question because i see many people on tv ( in america that is )celebrating christmas , decorating the tree and opening gifts on christmas morning but also taking away all it's christian elements and trying to make it a neutral holiday which it isn't, it's very christian....and although i disagree with that, to each his/her own...i'm a catholic, we celebrate christmas by going to midnight mass on christmas eve and christmas morning and my favourite part, about a week before christmas we decorate the tree and make , hmm....i have no idea what the english word is right now, we set up a scene of the christmas night under the tree, with little figurines of shepards and sheep, The Holy Family etc.....i think that tradition only exists in Italy ,Austria and Croatia, i might be wrong......too bad i don't have any pics on my computer right now, i would love to show you ( i'm pretty proud of it ):)

SamsoniteDelilah

10-26-05, 04:23 PM

chicagofrog

10-26-05, 05:02 PM

"[size=2]yeah well then you, Americans, have a problem with words one encounters only among patriotic dumbos who care more about the surface, i.e. the words used for instance, than the content.
getting all upset about a coupla words you don't like gives you an easy excuse not to read the rest, analyse and discuss it."
I'll give you one guess as to who said that.

only one??

i already wrote that i'm too lazy to write in every sentence 57%, 85%, 99.99%, or 46.82% or posts would become books.
but you're right, it may be taken as offensive. sorry.
not between friends though, as experience has taught me.
my mistake is to take you as if we knew each other long enough not to be offended so easily. i guess i take, or rather took, the MoFo for a reunion of friends, i.e. people who (consider they) know each other as if since a long time.
but i find more friendship in a bottle of vodka than around here since quite a time now.

Also, I have a question: who are all the "many"s and "they"s? Who are these mythical people mislabeling words in ways that displease you? Are they here on this board? Are they pounding on your door and shoving flyers in your face? Who are these faceless, nameless people that you feel compelled to tell us about at every opportunity?

the most conservative elements of a given society, and it does seem to me, like to the big majority of Europeans i met, (but as well to all my American buddies too in NY, Chitown, Vermont, Minnesota and Wisconsin) that, although they are to be found everywhere, these elements are stronger in your country. the same elements that dictate what is taboo and correct and what is not, in movies, everyday conversations, religions, sex and personal opinions.
you cannot say someone that dislikes, or even hates, these elements, doesn't like your country as a whole, be it at least for the rest, non-conservative/non-puritan elements.

Nonsense

i meant HERE, in this thread. you misinterpreted my post above, and now don't even wanna recognize that, recurring to the simplistic strategy of "since it's you that wrote that post, it must have meant something intolerant".
to make a simple and kinda stupid, but at the same time very clear comparison in its meaning, you know?, even Hitler, when he said he loved his dogs, probably meant he loved his dogs, whatever kinda guy he else was. i don't care about your liking me, but even the god Yoda has no right to misinterpret the post above judging just after who wrote it.

you've repeatedly generalized about other cultures and religion (my own culture and religion, especially).

i wrote what i wrote, and like i said, i can repeat and shout thousand times ****** puritanism, and even think puritanism was never any other place as strong as in christianity, and think monotheism bears in itself the *potential* roots of intolerance more than other religions, without disrespecting all christians, or the whole of christianity.

Sedai

10-26-05, 05:25 PM

But now, people like Bill Maher and George Carlin, whilst funny, are completely tearing religion apart. They stereotype religion, and they support activism against it. It's not a harmless joke, but an open call to arms.

Not at all. It is simply people exercising their rights to a free opinion and their right to free speech, which is protected by the constitution. One of the hardest things about freedom is learning to accept and DEFEND a person's right to stand up for an idea or issue that you (I) strongly disagree with. Racism is a great example. To truly support freedom one must fully support each citizens right to have racist views. They have the right, and regardless of how strongly I disagree with this or any view, it is that person's right under the constitution to think and believe what they want.

This is one of the issues our country is grappling with, and I think the racists are FAR less dangerous and worrisome than the people who are trying to get us to THINK they way they want us to. Yes, I am talking to YOU Gerafalo, and I am talking to YOU John Lennon (may you rest in peace)....

Imagine (John Lennon)

A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

As soon as EVERYONE starts thinking like we do, everything will be ok....

This line of thought is dangerous, no matter how altruistic the intent.

And I love me some beatles...

So, if the Carlin bugs you, turn it off and ignore it, it takes the power away. Attempt to call it a "call to arms" and you just may be the warmonger...

Before the flames start over the Lennon thing, I am not a republican, far from it, so don't go there.

chicagofrog

10-26-05, 05:42 PM

SamsoniteDelilah

10-26-05, 05:46 PM

Not at all. It is simply people exercising their rights to a free opinion and their right to free speech, which is protected by the constitution. One of the hardest things about freedom is learning to accept and DEFEND a person's right to stand up for an idea or issue that you (I) strongly disagree with. Racism is a great example. To truly support freedom one must fully support each citizens right to have racist views. They have the right, and regardless of how strongly I disagree with this or any view, it is that person's right under the constitution to think and believe what they want.

This is one of the issues our country is grappling with, and I think the racists are FAR less dangerous and worrisome than the people who are trying to get us to THINK they way they want us to. Yes, I am talking to YOU Gerafalo, and I am talking to YOU John Lennon (may you rest in peace)....

Imagine (John Lennon)

A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

As soon as EVERYONE starts thinking like we do, everything will be ok....

This line of thought is dangerous, no matter how altruistic the intent.

And I love me some beatles...

So, if the Carlin bugs you, turn it off and ignore it, it takes the power away. Attempt to call it a "call to arms" and you just may be the warmonger...

Before the flames start over the Lennon thing, I am not a republican, far from it, so don't go there.

Excellent post.

Sedai

10-26-05, 06:20 PM

i totally agree with the post above, and would sign it if it were a petition.
of course, had i written it, at least those two self-proclaimed enlightened "tolerant" people among the MoFos would have called me a racist bigot. (they have my compassion for their next life)

I don't think you would have, because at no point in the post were any of my personal views expressed on the issues I was discussing. Well, okay, the cat-calling at the celebs were my views;), but as far as the racism issue, careful articulation was called for.... I basically wanted to express a few ideas while at the same time commenting, in a very roundabout way, on the discussion that is going on right now... How, if disparate peoples are going to make progress in understanding one another, setting aside one's own feelings about the issues, especially the ones we feel the most strongly about, becomes something of a requirement... a necessity.

It's something I myself have been grappling with for a few years now, consciously, especially with the issues of racism, as I have seen racism adversely affect close friends numerous times. It's negative effects are clear and broad, but it's an extremely difficult issue to approach with any sort of clarity of mind. I feel clarity of heart when it comes to racism, but there is a clear disparity between what I feel to be right, and what I feel are basic rights as a human being for everyone. The right to live one's life and believe what you want to believe, and think for yourself.

Who am I (or anyone) to attempt to revoke those most basic and fundamental of human rights, even if what I feel and believe seem to be the good and correct way of living. That is what is hard about the concept of true freedom within a societal structure. That is the most glaring societal disconnect I can see right now, and certainly not exclusive to racism....

..but this...this is all academic....

How to handle the situation...I would ike to hear some ideas on that one.... Education is one....

:yup:

chicagofrog

10-26-05, 06:31 PM

I don't think you would have, because at no point in the post were any of my personal views expressed on the issues I was discussing.

that's why i would have! :p ;)

seriously, that's what i think.

SamsoniteDelilah

10-26-05, 07:33 PM

I don't think you would have, because at no point in the post were any of my personal views expressed on the issues I was discussing. Well, okay, the cat-calling at the celebs were my views;), but as far as the racism issue, careful articulation was called for.... I basically wanted to express a few ideas while at the same time commenting, in a very roundabout way, on the discussion that is going on right now... How, if disparate peoples are going to make progress in understanding one another, setting aside one's own feelings about the issues, especially the ones we feel the most strongly about, becomes something of a requirement... a necessity.

It's something I myself have been grappling with for a few years now, consciously, especially with the issues of racism, as I have seen racism adversely affect close friends numerous times. It's negative effects are clear and broad, but it's an extremely difficult issue to approach with any sort of clarity of mind. I feel clarity of heart when it comes to racism, but there is a clear disparity between what I feel to be right, and what I feel are basic rights as a human being for everyone. The right to live one's life and believe what you want to believe, and think for yourself.

Who am I (or anyone) to attempt to revoke those most basic and fundamental of human rights, even if what I feel and believe seem to be the good and correct way of living. That is what is hard about the concept of true freedom within a societal structure. That is the most glaring societal disconnect I can see right now, and certainly not exclusive to racism....

How to handle the situation...I would ike to hear some ideas on that one.... Education is one....

:yup:
The important thing to keep in mind about racism and issues like it is that one person's right to freedom of expression ends at the other person's nose. At the point where one person's racism (or religious fervor or whatever) does harm to another person, that person is aggressively undermining the rights of someone else, and becomes forfeit of (at least some of) his own.

At the point where harm is NOT done to another person, tolerance is necessary and education is one of the best tools for making the groundwork of a cooperative society.

adidasss

10-26-05, 07:49 PM

It's called a Nativity in English. :) Those are really sweet, I like 'em. I think I bought one last season, in fact.

As for Christmas being a Christian holiday, it is.. but it's not just a Christian holiday. It's even celebrated when it is because that was an old pagan holiday that people already celebrated. Pagans are people too, you know, and we like cookies just as much as anyone. ;)
sorry guys, don't mean to brake the flow of the argument, but i gotta answer the woman...yes, nativity, but it's not just something you buy.....our nativity "scenes" are quite big....mine covers half the living room...you just buy the figurines and everything else you make....the whole pasture and the sorroundings.....

SamsoniteDelilah

10-26-05, 07:56 PM

Piddzilla

10-27-05, 07:06 AM

Today Svenska Kyrkan ("The Swedish Church/Curch of Sweden") decided that homosexual couples will be able to get blessed in the church in a so called "välsignelseakt" ("act of blessing"). I'm not clear on what this means exactly in comparison to an ordinary wedding, but still.

I think this is interesting since it's the church's representatives themselves who collectively and democratically have decided this (on kyrkomötet, it's like an annual congress for Svenska Kyrkan). It's not forced upon the church by the state (which is impossible since the church now is seperated from the state) or decided by the leaders of Svenska Kyrkan for political reasons.

nebbit

10-27-05, 09:06 AM

Cool beans. Take pictures this year, if you please. I'd love to see it.

I'll second that :yup:

undercoverlover

10-27-05, 09:59 AM

Anonymous Last

10-27-05, 12:17 PM

sorry guys, don't mean to brake the flow of the argument, but i gotta answer the woman...yes, nativity, but it's not just something you buy.....our nativity "scenes" are quite big....mine covers half the living room...you just buy the figurines and everything else you make....the whole pasture and the sorroundings.....

I'm always on the look out for a little drummer boy for my "nativity scene". I got myself into a huge pushing & shoving match with this guy who works at one of those little holiday seasonal stores in the mall. That chump tried to explain to me that the drummer boy never existed. Bastard, better not talk about the drummer boy like that... so I had to step out of my ghetto bag! What the hell does he know? Someone wrote a fricking song after the kid, pa rum pum pum pum mother f-errrrrr! We attracted a huge crowd of onlookers, elves from that one area where your chitlins can take a picture with that guy in the red suit, shoppers running out of other stores and other mall workers from around the land. People started to chant "drummer boy- drummer boy" giving me the power from Castle Grayskull I stuck my chest out and stood as tall as I can. That dumb season greetings store worker must have had some of the blessed holiday spirit inside him... because he got all in my face, screaming loud, hands swinging all in the air and poking me in the chest with his Santa pen. I looked at him like, no you di- int! I stood back in my Bruce Lee defensive stance, stared him in the eyes and charged at him...screaming like a warrior, "This one is for all the drummer boys and girls!" I grabbed his Rudolph tie and with all my vicious might I did a Mr. Miyagi nose honk. After that I bought myself a Mrs. Field's original chocolate chip cookie...

Caitlyn

10-27-05, 02:20 PM

I'm always on the look out for a little drummer boy for my "nativity scene". I got myself into a huge pushing & shoving match with this guy who works at one of those little holiday seasonal stores in the mall. That chump tried to explain to me that the drummer boy never existed. Bastard, better not talk about the drummer boy like that... so I had to step out of my ghetto bag! What the hell does he know? Someone wrote a fricking song after the kid, pa rum pum pum pum mother f-errrrrr! We attracted a huge crowd of onlookers, elves from that one area where your chitlins can take a picture with that guy in the red suit, shoppers running out of other stores and other mall workers from around the land. People started to chant "drummer boy- drummer boy" giving me the power from Castle Grayskull I stuck my chest out and stood as tall as I can. That dumb season greetings store worker must have had some of the blessed holiday spirit inside him... because he got all in my face, screaming loud, hands swinging all in the air and poking me in the chest with his Santa pen. I looked at him like, no you di- int! I stood back in my Bruce Lee defensive stance, stared him in the eyes and charged at him...screaming like a warrior, "This one is for all the drummer boys and girls!" I grabbed his Rudolph tie and with all my vicious might I did a Mr. Miyagi nose honk. After that I bought myself a Mrs. Field's original chocolate chip cookie...

Note to self: Go shopping with Nony... :D

Tea Barking

10-27-05, 02:33 PM

T'is the season to be jolly :D

Piddzilla

10-27-05, 03:45 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen... Mr. Anonymous Last.

adidasss

10-27-05, 03:54 PM

nebbit

10-27-05, 07:03 PM

Note to self: Go shopping with Nony... :D

:yup:

SamsoniteDelilah

10-27-05, 07:56 PM

John McClane

10-27-05, 08:10 PM

It's amazing what one post can do to a thread, eh? :)

7thson

10-27-05, 11:04 PM

Anonymous Last

10-27-05, 11:10 PM

Holy Mr Green Jeans this has to be best post ever.:D

What color are my pants now, smarty?

7thson

10-27-05, 11:14 PM

What color are my pants now, smarty?

You are wearing some?

Anonymous Last

10-27-05, 11:32 PM

You are wearing some?

No, I'm not...

you are good.

undercoverlover

10-28-05, 07:24 AM

*goes to a scary visual place*

*stays there for half an hour* hee hee

adidasss

09-11-08, 06:21 PM

Bumpiddybump.

I wanted to ask the following question (instead of doing my own research): I remember when discussion the death penalty with Chris, he mentioned that the dogma of the sanctity of life isn't part of the Protestant cathechism (if I'm not mistaken *unsure*). Now, someone on another forum just mentioned the apparent "hypocrisy" of a certain republican *cough*Plain**cough* who is for the death penalty but is strongly against abortion. I'm fairly positive there's a perfectly reasonable explanation that encompasses both of these (to my born-and-raised-catholic mind contrary) stances. Edumacate me, please...:)

Sawman3

09-11-08, 06:34 PM

Basically I'm for the death penalty and for abortion, but for different reasons.

I'll do my best to explain what I think her thinking is: first of all, she is probably unaware that no-one goes for an abortion just for the hell of it, it's because most people are just out of other options. Second, she is also probably unaware that termination of a fetus once it has passed a certain developmental stage is not legal, as by then it would be considered conscious, so really you're only "murdering" a bunch of cells. Finally, as to the incongruity, her reasoning is probably something like what follows:

Criminals, bad
Babies, innocent and good

Yoda

09-11-08, 06:39 PM

I wanted to ask the following question (instead of doing my own research): I remember when discussion the death penalty with Chris, he mentioned that the dogma of the sanctity of life isn't part of the Protestant cathechism (if I'm not mistaken *unsure*).
Hm. I don't remember saying this. It doesn't sound like something I'd say, either. Not saying I didn't, though: I might have said something about it not being explicit. Not sure, honestly.

Now, someone on another forum just mentioned the apparent "hypocrisy" of a certain republican *cough*Plain**cough* who is for the death penalty but is strongly against abortion. I'm fairly positive there's a perfectly reasonable explanation that encompasses both of these (to my born-and-raised-catholic mind contrary) stances. Edumacate me, please...:)
Well, I can't speak for her, or for other Protestants, but I can speak for me (and quite often, I do! ;)). Speaking for myself, I think you can make a good case that the two aren't equivalent, and that when someone takes another's life by murdering them, they have forefeited their own right to life. I'm not quite sure I agree with this, but it's not unreasonable, and it's definitely not a direct contradiction.

That said, it's not where I'd come down on the issue. Largely because it's too abstract: we can talk about the idea of killing a murderer, but it's a completely academic discussion unless we reform the system and reduce the number of prosecutorial mistakes. At the very least, we should be requiring DNA evidence. I think reform is a prerequisite, no matter what side of the issue you come down on.

Also, if I can be shamelessly argumentative, I would point out that if there is a tension (if not contradiction) between pro-life and pro-death-penalty beliefs, I think a similar tension or contradiction would apply to someone is pro-choice and anti-death-penalty.

Yoda

09-11-08, 06:40 PM

Criminals, bad
Babies, innocent and good
Heh. Yeah, you beat me to it, and with about a tenth as many words, to boot.

undercoverlover

09-11-08, 06:53 PM

Basically I'm for the death penalty and for abortion

you're pro-abortion or pro-choice?

Sawman3

09-11-08, 06:54 PM

you're pro-abortion or pro-choice?
Pro-abortion, but I believe there need to be limits to it.

adidasss

09-11-08, 06:55 PM

Hm. I don't remember saying this. It doesn't sound like something I'd say, either. Not saying I didn't, though: I might have said something about it not being explicit. Not sure, honestly.
I'm not sure either. I guess I drew the conclusion from your (tacit?) approval of the death penalty.
Well, I can't speak for her, or for other Protestants, but I can speak for me (and quite often, I do! ;)). Speaking for myself, I think you can make a good case that the two aren't equivalent, and that when someone takes another's life by murdering them, they have forefeited their own right to life. I'm not quite sure I agree with this, but it's not unreasonable, and it's definitely not a direct contradiction.
Well it is if you operate under the rule that only God can give and take life. This is why Catholics are so strongly opposed to abortion (and the death penalty). That's why I was wondering if there's some protestant theological reasoning that allows for the death penalty but not abortion. It's confusing.

Also, if I can be shamelessly argumentative, I would point out that if there is a tension (if not contradiction) between pro-life and pro-death-penalty beliefs, I think a similar tension or contradiction would apply to someone is pro-choice and anti-death-penalty. Oh absolutely....well, from a Catholic point of view anyway...:yup:

John McClane

09-11-08, 07:28 PM

Pro-abortion, but I believe there need to be limits to it.I used to be pro-abortion with no limits, but I've really changed lately.

I could get behind a pro-life campaign if, and only if, there were the following measures: abortion right/choice for rape/incest cases and women practicing proper birth control. The odds of that happening are slim, though.

The major problem with the current system is people are using it as an alternative to birth control; which is wrong.

Swedish Chef

09-11-08, 07:35 PM

I know someone who's twenty-three with at least four abortions under her belt. So, yeah, I think that's pretty horrible. But, those kinds of extreme cases notwithstanding, I say...

"Abortions for some! Miniature American flags for everyone!"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d3/THOH_Kang_and_Kodos.png

nebbit

09-11-08, 08:33 PM

I used to be pro-abortion with no limits, but I've really changed lately.
women practicing proper birth control.
What do you mean by that? Only women who practice proper birth control can have abortions? :goof:

John McClane

09-11-08, 08:55 PM

What do you mean by that? Only women who practice proper birth control can have abortions? :goof:Certainly. Why should a responsible adult be allowed to kill their child just because they didn't use some form of birth control? Last I checked abortions weren't birth control. Swedish Chef hit the nail on the head when he was talking about the women who had had four abortions already. Just imagine how many she could have avoided if she had practiced proper birth control (I'm assuming she doesn't).

undercoverlover

09-11-08, 08:57 PM

the flaw in the whole arguement is - how could you possibly monitor birth control use to determine who deserves an abortion and who doesn't?

mark f

09-11-08, 09:07 PM

http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20071106/big-brother_270x360.jpg

John McClane

09-11-08, 09:09 PM

the flaw in the whole arguement is - how could you possibly monitor birth control use to determine who deserves an abortion and who doesn't?Simple. Does she have a subscription for birth control? How about one of those monthly thingys, or the yearly thingy? Or any of the other countless methods? It's very easy to find out if she's practicing birth control, and if it's a couple it should be easy to ask if they used a condom. Perhaps we shouldn't pry, though, because it really isn't our business.

undercoverlover

09-11-08, 09:12 PM

mark f

09-11-08, 09:21 PM

I don't have to mention this, but it takes two to make a baby. Why is she more responsible?

John McClane

09-11-08, 09:23 PM

say this rule was in effect and you had to prove you had birth control, I'd wager that it wouldn't be hard to get around. People seem to get around everything else these days so this rule may well be fruitless. And as for asking about the use of condoms it's not too hard to say that you used one when you didn't.That is certainly true. However, it's not entirely different from a teenager driving across a state line to get an abortion. Of course, this system would need proper birth control to be taught in schools. Like I said, it's unlikely that it would be put into practice.

I don't have to mention this, but it takes two to make a baby. Why is she more responsible?She's not more responsible. They are both equally responsible, and if they can't practice proper birth control why should we give them a free pass just because they don't want a baby?

nebbit

09-11-08, 10:28 PM

Certainly. Why should a responsible adult be allowed to kill their child just because they didn't use some form of birth control? Last I checked abortions weren't birth control. Swedish Chef hit the nail on the head when he was talking about the women who had had four abortions already. Just imagine how many she could have avoided if she had practiced proper birth control (I'm assuming she doesn't).
Don't really agree with that, i don't believe the majority of woman use Abortion as birth control :nope: there will always be idiots in this world. That also absolves men from using contraception, it is as if only woman need to worry about it :rolleyes: if all men used condoms, then they can be at least 99% sure that woman they have sex with do not get pregnant. :mad:

John McClane

09-11-08, 10:49 PM

Don't really agree with that, i don't believe the majority of woman use Abortion as birth control :nope:Oh, I never said they did. However, there is a large number of women who aren't practicing birth control and using abortion as a "get out of jail free card." Whether they do it once or multiple times it's just wrong that we keep bailing people out of a huge responsibility.

I'm all about holding people to their responsibilities, and if they can't be responsible then I say we shouldn't give them any slack. But that's just me, of course. :D

7thson

09-11-08, 11:22 PM

if all men used condoms, then they can be at least 99% sure that woman they have sex with do not get pregnant. :mad:

All women should be sure that they do not have sex with a man who does not wear one, and in this day and age why would you take the risk of an std, either gender? What I am saying is that it is totally 50/50 in consensual sex. Seriously I do not care how horny one is, the pull out method really does not work so well. If you do not cover your codpiece do not go fishing.;)

Swedish Chef

09-11-08, 11:50 PM

Don't be a chump, cover your stump before you hump.

7thson

09-11-08, 11:54 PM

Don't be easy ladies, make the man wear a turban.

nebbit

09-12-08, 07:45 AM

either gender? What I am saying is that it is totally 50/50 in consensual sex.
Well yes that is right :yup: it just seems when a lot of people talk about contraception, they mostly talk about woman :yup;

Seriously I do not care how horny one is, the pull out method really does not work so well. If you do not cover your codpiece do not go fishing.;)
Unfortunately people are still having unprotected sex :eek:

nebbit

09-12-08, 07:55 AM

However, there is a large number of women who aren't practicing birth control and using abortion as a "get out of jail free card." Whether they do it once or multiple times it's just wrong that we keep bailing people out of a huge responsibility.
I have never met one woman in my life that uses abortion as birth control :nope: I think that it is one of those urban myths, that is designed to get anti abortion crowds fired up :yup: I have meet many stupid Men and Women who don't think about the consequences of having unprotected sex.:yup:

I'm all about holding people to their responsibilities, and if they can't be responsible then I say we shouldn't give them any slack. But that's just me, of course. :D
That is a bit tough, no one is perfect :nope:

undercoverlover

09-12-08, 11:22 AM

Don't be a chump, cover your stump before you hump.

my personal favourite:

You're not dressed right, you're not coming in

bleacheddecay

09-12-08, 11:07 PM

I live in the Bible Belt. I get tired of rabid conservative religious people sometimes. MOST however, are somewhat tolerant and warm, as long as you "go along to get along." I don't push things. That's not my agenda.

What is my agenda? Getting more work in THIS society. Having my kids feel part of a community. Knowing that I'm mostly doing the best that I can at any given time, though I'm far from perfect. Meeting people, finding commonalities, trying things, having a good time and learning.

Now and then I find on a board I have to put my foot down and show another side of things besides the whole rabid, "You are not a Christian if . . ." thing that I sometimes see.

At those times, I am often told that I am not Christian. Hmm, so it seems if I don't agree with someone 100%, they can decide what I am? Nope, it doesn't work that way.

I like to think Christians should be loving, open and tolerant. I think I usually exemplify that more than many, who are rabid on various boards. I've not seen the problem here.

So in a way I feel I am a Christian. I certainly was raised as one in a very restrictive religion. However, I currently believe in very little that I can't KNOW all by myself through one or more of my five senses.

I figure if God wants me to truly believe s/he being all knowing and all powerful can get his/her message across to me at any time. In the meantime if I am as good a person as I can manage to be, I feel that's all that should be asked of me. I think that's pretty darn good.

So I'm a Christian, agnostic, atheist, naturalist, and humanist just comfortable in my own skin. I don't need to believe in anything bigger than me but I'm open to it.

John McClane

09-13-08, 02:38 AM

I have never met one woman in my life that uses abortion as birth control :nope: I think that it is one of those urban myths, that is designed to get anti abortion crowds fired up :yup: I have meet many stupid Men and Women who don't think about the consequences of having unprotected sex.:yup:If those men and women have unprotected sex and then get an abortion then yea, that would be a fine example of using abortion as birth control.

That is a bit tough, no one is perfect :nope:Being perfect has nothing to do with one's ability to put a condom on. Many imperfect men (cheaters, liars, etc) can put a condom on.

bleacheddecay

09-13-08, 09:57 AM

I've never personally met anyone who uses abortion as birth control either. That would seriously bother me. I may be pro choice but I'm not pro abortion.

John McClane

09-13-08, 02:22 PM

I've never personally met anyone who uses abortion as birth control either. That would seriously bother me. I may be pro choice but I'm not pro abortion.Neither have I. The fact remains, though, that if people are having unprotected sex and end up getting an abortion that is, in the end, a method of birth control. No one would ever admit to using it as birth control, but that fact still remains.

I'm not advocating that people use it as a method of birth control. What I am saying is people use it in place of birth control when their unprotected sex lands them in the pregnant stage. Like I said earlier, "a get out of jail free" card, so to speak.

If we hold teenagers and criminals responsible to their actions, then why not typical adults? It's not asking much. :nope:

bleacheddecay

09-13-08, 11:44 PM

Like I said, I'm not pro abortion. I was urged to have one when they were legal and I was 29. I said NO WAY. I'm glad of that.

My Mom was urged to have one when she was 16 and they were illegal. She didn't. I'm glad of that.

I'd just never presume to tell a woman of any age she HAD to carry a child inside her. Telling someone else what to do with their body or to judge them for the decision they make just isn't something I could do.

John McClane

09-14-08, 12:37 AM

I'd just never presume to tell a woman of any age she HAD to carry a child inside her. Telling someone else what to do with their body or to judge them for the decision they make just isn't something I could do.We certainly tell people what to do with their body before their pregnant or when it has nothing to do with pregnancy, though.

mark f

09-14-08, 12:50 AM

Who are "we" and why do we do it? ;)

By the way, hi there.

John McClane

09-14-08, 12:58 AM

Who are "we" and why do we do it? ;)Society. Because we're butt heads. ;)

bleacheddecay

09-14-08, 01:07 AM

I don't. I never have and I hope I never will.

FILMFREAK087

09-14-08, 01:24 AM

I think why religon gets a bad rap these days is because of stubborn people, who decide to percieve the texts as hard-line literal translations. Many religous leaders used this to ensure their positions in more primitive times, after all what's better than being in an unquestionable position of power? Within the various Holy books there is an underlying theme of betterment, and evolving one's behavior, much like self-help books of today. The issues of homosexuality and abortions are implimented to rally behind primordial emotions, such as fear of things that are different from one's self, and the fear of children potentially being harmed. The truth is, Religon is merely a reflection of humanity's unresolved questions about itself.

mark f

09-14-08, 03:12 AM

This probably isn't the best place to post this, but since I've been wanting to post it somewhere (just so somebody can call me a dirty name :cool: ), I want to say this about some people's relationships to "ancient texts" because I believe that many people just misunderstand the concept here. I will wait a second and add that I don't believe anyone who reads an ancient text for "spiritual" guidance will ever use it to harm another individual. I don't care what you read in black and white in some places of ancient texts, but none that I've read (and I admittedly haven't read all of all of them) advocates that a loving, spiritual human being kill another human in the context of "modern society". The Bible, for example, contains lots of rules and ideas about killing people, but it was all put in the context of a world without God (or spiritual values, or for those who don't believe, a world without rational, modern humanist thought). The Book is both a warning and a guide. You can find hate in "The Book", but it's also full of love, compassion, forgiveness, and the desire for the truly "faithful" (those who love their fellow man) to overcome all the horrors and hypocrisy the Book expands upon. Ultimately, the Book is about coming together as one. Those who don't agree aren't fried in hell forever. I sure hope so because I'm really quite rebellious, at least concerning what we see as our current world situation.

Sorry for that long-winded "diatribe" (I hope it wasn't), but I felt I needed to preface the point I actually wanted to make here. Feel free to consider me an idiot, brainwashed or a false demigod if you will (I'd probably agree with you!), but I don't interpret The Bible, it interprets me.

mark f

09-14-08, 04:03 AM

Oh God, I just read that last part which was my rny entire point, but I meant that if I, or anybody else claiming to be "of God" screws the pooch, then we are responsible! You can't really blame God for the responsiblity of all the silliness which humankind continues to promulgate.

John McClane

09-14-08, 12:31 PM

I just read the beginning of a very interesting book for my philosophy class called, The Bible: A Very Short Introduction by John Riches. It quite simply has to be one of the best books to read for people who have zero to very little knowledge of The Bible. I highly recommend it.

nebbit

09-14-08, 09:55 PM

If those men and women have unprotected sex and then get an abortion then yea, that would be a fine example of using abortion as birth control.
Probably better than them being parents :yup:

John McClane

09-14-08, 10:46 PM

Probably better than them being parents :yup:Hence the point of them using a condom! :yup:

7thson

09-14-08, 11:21 PM

nebbit

09-15-08, 12:38 AM

Hence the point of them using a condom! :yup:
This is a circular argument, I agree they should wear one :yup: but :rolleyes:

mark f

09-15-08, 01:44 AM

John McClane

09-15-08, 09:30 AM

Maybe, I shouldn't go there, but John, have you ever use a condom? I'm asking because you sound like an expert. :cool:That's highly classified information, and I'm not at liberty to say. ;D

christine

09-15-08, 12:22 PM

I don't know anyone who believes in late-term abortions. In fact, almost every single woman I know who is pro-choice doesn't believe that they would EVER have an abortion, under any circumstances. It's just that now that the law exists, and women don't believe in having to die in back-alley abortions because they believe something will be bad for them or their future "child", that they use what somebody called the "Get Out of Jail Free" Card.

Exactly. Does anyone think that an abortion is something any woman would willingly do ? treating it just like having a dental appointment or something? Can only talk about the UK, but a hell of a lot of suffering went on prior to the 1967 Abortion Act where the use of unsanitary back street abortions killed or maimed women, and these are women that maybe didn't even want an abortion but the shame and judgement cast on them by society hardly gave them a choice. I don't think an abortion is something anyone would go into lightly, and I know women who have had one decades ago who still suffer mental anguish over the choices they had to make.

christine

09-15-08, 01:25 PM

All pro-choice/pro-abortion/pro-life aside:

Does the act of sucking the brains out of a human being, or even a future human being seem right? Just asking, no judgement from me either way. I am talking the late term stuff - does it seem right? I mean the act not the reasons for it - does it?

of course not, why would anyone in their right mind think this seems right? but you can't consider the act without the reasons and why abortions can still be carried out for social reasons up to 24 weeks (in the UK) when babies can survive with great medical intervention at 22 weeks now. We have to consider as a society at which point we need to draw the line now, but along with that we need more education about abortion and pregnancy and the effects mentally and physically on women as well as education about birth control, and I reckon these should be taught in schools .

We also have to know that late term abortion is a tiny percentage of total abortions, the vast majority are carried out before 13 weeks (UK stats)