View Full Version : Complicated Situation
Quite a few people have been turning to this board lately for advice about personal issues; and I've been following the replies several members have given, most of which I've found to quite honest, thoughtful, considerate, and (most importantly) constructive. So I figured I'd throw my current 'personal issue' out there, if anything to get it off my chest: because when it comes to some things, I don't feel comfortable talking to family and friends about it. Some people are just too close to give you objective advice, you know?
That said, I'm not sure advice is really what I need. I know what I should and shouldn't do... or rather, what I can't do. But it's tearing me up that it has to be that way.
A couple years ago, I met a woman who was nine years my senior and married (no kids). Our personalities were such that we hit it off immediately - we were able to communicate comfortably, like we had always known each other, and became fast friends. She was having trouble with her marriage at the time, and because I had had experience with my parents coming dangerously close to divorce, I became for her a kind of friendly counselor. I never slanted her away from her husband and toward me, but of course, as they grew further apart, we grew closer together. It wasn't long before she had left him, and stupidly, we started courting each other.
As you can imagine, it didn't last. I've been over it many times in my head, trying to figure out why things didn't work, but it doesn't matter. The fact is, she realized the relationship wasn't a realistic one, and lost interest. I was heart-broken, yadda yadda. Now we hardly ever speak to each other.
Fast forward to today.
For the past year, I've been getting to know a woman with whom I work. She's 34 (I'm 23), married, and has two kids (one her own, one stepchild). She doesn't remind me of the ex-girlfriend I mentioned above, but I'm telling you, I have never in my life met anyone with whom I felt just perfectly right being around. We go together like legos. There has never been an awkward social moment between us... even from day one. I just can't explain it. It's like we were tailor-made to fit together in every way. We have the same snarky sense of humor, the same level of tenacity, we share the same beliefs about the things we care about. The chemistry we share is remarkable. When I'm with her, I feel like myself. And she astonishes me with how driven she is about things. She's not a fake. She says what she means, but her personality is still as warm and cozy as a blanket. I speed to work in the morning because she's there, and I hesitate to leave because she hasn't.
And I get signals from her, too. Seemingly little things... like different kinds of body language: standing close together, brushing or picking lint off my shirt, putting her hand on my arm when she wants to talk to me... Sometimes, when we're in the office talking, she'll close the door and say something like, "We're going to get rumors started." She's made comments to me like, "I don't have many friends" and other little statements that sound 'off-hand' in context, but actually speak volumes. Apparently, she talks about me to her husband, saying things like, "Oh Kyle (me) would love this" and other things.
Last night, we went to our Christmas Party for work. Ate dinner, watched a play. We were in charge driving all the old ladies to and from the place in a big van, so we sat up front and talked a lot. She told me about her new car, and how it can switch from automatic transmission to manual on the fly. Anyway, when we got back to work, we said goodnight, and she walked off to her car. I parked the van in the garage, and when I came out, she was there in her car waiting. She told me to hop in so I could see how the transmission worked, so I did. She took me down the street, and then decided that we should take the van keys back to my boss. So we rode over there together, joked about 'starting rumors again', and then, after some more dawdling, headed back to work. I'm a pretty perceptive person, and it seemed like she was trying to think of ways to keep us from having to part ways. And when it was time for me to get out of her car, I didn't want to. I said good night, got out, and walked to my car. She drove off slowly, and I'm pretty sure she was watching me in her rear view mirror.
So yes, this is the situation. I'm falling for this woman hard, and I'm getting the impression that she's got feelings for me. But she's married, and she has kids, and I've learned my lesson already. But that means that nothing can ever happen between us, and that makes me so incredibly sad. When I split up with my ex, people told me that it was God's way of testing my character. I can't help but remember that now, but I look at this woman, and there's nothing sinister or testing about her. She's the most honest, amiable, and charming person I've ever met, and the only problem is that we weren't born in the same generation. I feel selfish for saying it, but it seems a travesty that we can't be together. I hate myself for feeling that way, too, because I know her husband is a great guy, and she wouldn't have married him without being honest with herself. I know that. But we feel so very right together. This is just an example of how generation does not supercede the chemistry that people can (and do) share.
I don't know what to do. I'm not going to tell her that I love her, of course, and I'd die before I tried to circumvent her marriage just to pursue a relationship. It can't happen. It just can't. But I want to tell her how much I value her, how closely I feel to her, and how I never want to lose track of her. She's one of the best friends I've ever had. I don't even have her number. I'm afraid that something will happen - anything - and we wouldn't know how to find each other. I don't want our friendship to live solely at work. She's someone I want to hang out with. But once again, she's married. Is that appropriate? Of course not. So what do I do? What can I do?
I'm not a selfish person. I don't expect anything from anyone. It feels like the world is getting smaller, people are so much less accessible. I'm constantly meeting new people, but that rare breed of person that seems to validate your existence by fitting to you like that one puzzle piece you were designed to click into place with... you tend to not want to let that go. It seems a terrible trick that we should be so close, but will never be allowed to go that extra inch. Like there's a pane of glass between us and that level of human interaction which, to me, is what living is all about. Are we doomed to accept that the few fleeting hours we get to spend together is all we're allowed to have? Must we always teeter on the edge of that deeper connection our souls are desperately trying to make but never can?
What is life if we can't live to the tune of our own heartbeat?
Yeah, this turned out to be more of a vent than anything. I know the answer already, but it doesn't make it any easier. Thoughts are appreciated, but of course, not expected from anyone.
I'm sure you've already been over any possibilities, explanations, or thoughts I can possibly share with you, and what you wrote brings to mind many, many thoughts and questions, but the most prominent of them, for me, is whether or not there's a reason you find yourself attracted to another married woman.
Obviously, it could simply be a coincidence. But mightn't it be a bit more likely that something in their situations plays a major part in the attraction? Seems like a simpler explanation than fate inflicting its cruelty on you yet again. It sounds like you've thoroughly examined your feelings and the situation in general, so what do you think?
Equilibrium
12-09-06, 05:00 PM
I have a lot to say to you. I want to because you've helped me out and pitched your advice. however i have a plane to catch in 2 hours. So, please give me the luxury of a day or two and I'll respond. take care.
I'm sure you've already been over any possibilities, explanations, or thoughts I can possibly share with you, and what you wrote brings to mind many, many thoughts and questions, but the most prominent of them, for me, is whether or not there's a reason you find yourself attracted to another married woman.
Obviously, it could simply be a coincidence. But mightn't it be a bit more likely that something in their situations plays a major part in the attraction? Seems like a simpler explanation than fate inflicting its cruelty on you yet again. It sounds like you've thoroughly examined your feelings and the situation in general, so what do you think?
Yeah, I've been over that. I'm introspective and secure enough with myself to consider that I might have a complex for married women. But I don't think that's quite it. If anything, I might have a complex for mature women: there's just something about these two (this most recent one, in particular) that I don't generally find in women my age.
If I was attracted only to women who were married, or unavailable in some other way, then I'd quite obviously be concerned. But that's not true. I've been attracted in various degrees to single women, and have pursued them. But I rather think the degree to which I'm attracted to this woman has quite a bit - if not everything - to do with her personality and mine. I can distance myself from my emotions enough to say with confidence that if she were closer to my age and single but otherwise unchanged, I'd still feel the same way.
I shouldn't pollute this situation too much with my attraction to her, though. That's only part of it. It's the kind of person she is that makes such a natural friendship with her possible, and it's that friendship that I value most, and the basis for our entire exposure to each other. I'm quite selfishly upset that I could never date her... but I can live with that. I have too much respect for her, her husband, and her daughters to feel differently. But it's that friendship that I'm not about to sacrifice, and that I want desperately to explore. But our culture being the social monster that it is, how can a 23-year old college student and a 34-year old married woman be friends without having all kinds of baggage heaped up on it?
I'm afraid that our limited time at work together is all we're socially allowed, and I'm afraid the deeper feelings I have for her are reciprocated... which would make being 'just friends' even more difficult, and potentially impossible. I learned two years ago that, no matter what is prudent or acceptable, your heart does what it wants, and you're just supposed to stay afloat.
I'm considering telling her how much I value her as a friend, and that I really like having her in my life, given the way we so naturally communicate. She's made enough comments in the past to tell me that she feels the same way, and I guess I feel like we've come to the point at which it would be wrong to be such great friends and not say it to each other.
I have a lot to say to you. I want to because you've helped me out and pitched your advice. however i have a plane to catch in 2 hours. So, please give me the luxury of a day or two and I'll respond. take care.
No worries, man. You're a good guy, and your comments are more than welcome. Have a safe flight! :)
About to head out for the evening, but I would love to chat with you about things, Kyle. I just wanted you to know how much I respect you, and always have. You rock, Kyle, don't let anyone ever tell you different. Perhaps we can get on IMs soon and chat, I would like that.
I think the two of you have a beautiful friendship, I tend to love people I click with very easily and often, in the past I have fallen for a married woman or two.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the way you feel. If the friendship is a valued one, which it is, you may want to get your feelings out in the open, all of them including your feelings about her marriage, family and such. If she is that good a friend and a straight talker to boot she can only be flattered. She seems very realistic, so I don't think she would avoid acknowledgement of her own feelings, if they do exist.
The problem with adult relationships is that they are notoriously messy and difficult, people are at a point where they feel more complete and on the right path than ever before, the benefit of her wisdom and experience would certainly grant her perspective and a sense of sanity about the whole thing which you need right now.
I have come to believe that if you get things out in the open in a mature manner the friendship can only flourish. There may be a time of weirdness, but I'm sure she kind of expects you to feel that way you do at this point. Flirtations are a natural part of any married persons life and hers with you I'm sure is vital to her feelings as a desirable and intellectually stimulating individual.
I do recommend that if you do tell her, make sure to let her know that if the friendship persists that you want to get to know her family as well. Family is an important part of who we are and if the friendship is that deep, she will appreciate the fact that you want to get to know her WHOLE life. Doing that while suffering a little for your want of her can only be a good perspective jolt. It may not erase your feeling for her but it will definitely allow the friendship to grow.
Can men and women truly be friends? Absolutely, even with underlying romantic/sexual tension, and sometimes it only adds to the friendship.
Austruck
12-09-06, 08:55 PM
I have a slightly different perspective on this: Be careful. Revealing too much about commonalities and feelings could mean that, in the future when she's feuding with hubby, she will think of you, even if semi-innocently. She may fleetingly think, "If only my husband were more like Kyle..." This is *very* dangerous territory, the "my spouse doesn't understand me like you do" thing.
Remember, virtually every marriage breakup I've seen where a third party was involved started out in very *innocent* territory. Territory that seemed harmless and right and pure and fine. And yet somewhere, something changes. It's usually so slow and imperceptible that the parties don't see it coming...until it's too late.
Often I think this happens because it is very difficult to live with someone 24/7 and not have periods of annoyance and irritation -- in good marriages these are only blips on the radar screen, but they always exist. It's those moments when a thought-bubble of a good male friend can rear its ugly head.
It might take years to fester and ooze to the surface in bad ways, but it IS possible.
I am much more cautious and *protective* here in my second marriage than I was my first. I firmly believe that anybody, given the wrong set of circumstances, is capable of anything. And so I assume the worst is possible and hedge against it with preemptive actions. It's not a matter of not trusting my husband. But I don't trust human nature and I don't want to put him or myself in a situation where a temptation could even arise. I have tons of male friends but no *close* male friends. And male friends I had been very close to while single are now at a slight arm's length now. And we all understand it. It's prudence. It's how I protect the marriage I love. It's how I respect my relationship with my husband and value it *above all other friendships and relationships.*
If you pursue such a friendship with a married woman *too* much, you are not allowing her to show the respect to her marriage that it deserves.
I realize all I've said is cautionary, but it comes from experience. And I have a sort of freedom in this marriage knowing I am constantly, preemptively vigilant without being suffocating or distrusting. A fine line, but one I feel is vastly important.
My two cents from the other side....
Linda
I can agree with most of that. I do think that there is a level of that comparison that will persist even without acknowledgement of the underlying romantic feelings.
I have trouble believing that there is a need (for me) to keep my female friends at arms length. The problem I have run into lately is that there are feelings that never dissipated from a previous relationship (a romantic one, not a platonic one) that call into question all the things I had perceived in the past.
I don't necessarily agree that if a marriage is a good one that there will be no attraction to outside influences. But what I do think is important in every relationship is a certain level of honesty and trust, to and in both oneself and ones partner.
When I experienced these lingering doubts the very first thing I did was tell my partner, it was difficult, but we reached a level of openness that only enhanced our relationship and secured our friendship for the future whether we end up together or not.
I don't keep my own secrets well, every new experience and epiphany I have is shared as soon as the processing of it has been completed. I also don't lie well, so if I have feelings that are not societaly acceptable, I feel like a freak if I hide them. And that damage to self only comes out in my relationships with others.
Most marriages that collapse do so because of the people involved, the "other man" or "other woman" is merely a symptom of a larger problem. If you don't expose yourself to the emotion detector of another's influence it is often hard to see what's wrong. Besides, I couldn't possibly imagine isolating my female friends (who are numerous and diverse) because of fear of damaging what I have at home. My female friends help me understand things from a different perspective, as a writer that is an invaluable resource. As a human being it makes me more than the sum of my parts.
I am by no means saying that you should pursue this woman, that would be poor judgement and can possibly destroy the friendship. What I am saying is that being honest with your feelings, all of them, and having a mature, measured attitude about it will be appreciated and admired. You have more than enough common sense not to let them get the best of you, trust her with the same and the friendship will continue and grow.
Austruck
12-09-06, 09:47 PM
Don't misunderstand me -- I have all the same male friends as before. I just don't do things exclusively with them, or alone with them (except in public and only if hubby knows -- coffee, etc., with friends I had before he and I met). I don't ever gripe about my husband to them. In other words -- I just am much more careful now that I have a precious relationship I want to protect. I don't give myself any opportunity for *wedges* to get in. But I don't isolate my male friends. Far from it.
Besides, being honest about your feelings isn't a virtue exclusive of other virtues. Being able to say, "Hey, I think I'm falling for my coworker" to your spouse isn't all that virtuous if you could have been more careful about the friendship/relationship in the first place and had the feeling never develop.
Having been in both sorts of relationships, I can say that the way I handle things now does not mean distrust of either of us. It's hard to explain fully unless you're slightly older and have been around the block a few times. But all my best friends with the best marriages do variations of this, and we're all *very* happy with the results. We know our situations well. We aren't letting temptations get in. We don't *want* them to get in.
Bear in mind I'm talking marriage here, too, not just "exclusive relationships" of one sort or another. Marriages with children involved. The stakes are outrageously high, and I have absolutely no intention of toying around with any of it. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Yada yada yada. :)
But again -- I still adore all my male friends, some from as far back as age 7. I just watch some of the lines I draw with them from now on. It doesn't make me a prude to be this way. It makes me a HUGE lover and adorer of my husband. :) :)
Oh I understand that completely and totally. I made sure I added the parenthetical (for me) in there, by no means was I judging you or your decisions, that would be far too presumptuous for even me :)
I do think that if there is an opportunity for a "wedge" exists there is a larger problem, and that was what I was trying to say. I have done things exclusively with many female friends, Hiking, walking, dining etc. etc. And in nearly every case it was totally and completely platonic. I have had romantic feelings for each and every one at one time or another and I have been honest about them and we moved beyond it (in all but one case) and when we cannot, either the friendship ends or there is an admittedly exciting but verboten element added. All but once have I not straddled or stayed on my side of that line, and that one was for an extraordinary person I could never imagine my life without.
I don't think it is the opportunity to stray that is the problem, but the decision to do so that is so insidious, self control is key.
I feel as an unwed father that I have far more to lose if things at home go awry, I have little or no legal rights to my son and there is nothing binding that says I deserve any support. My current relationship has lasted 12 years and the reasons not to marry were very personal and financial. Not for my protection, but for hers. My honesty comes at a greater price if she decides to leave, but my trust in her is so great that I am willing to take that risk for the sake of being true to myself and the relationship.
Austruck
12-09-06, 10:25 PM
Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes here, then. One thing (an opportunity) doesn't preclude the other (bad decisions). People who want to stray will find ways.
But I definitely do not agree that if there is an opportunity for a wedge that there is an inherent problem in the relationship. I think all relationships, even the great ones, ebb and flow in some sense. You're not always ga-ga in love and thrilled with your spouse/partner, and maybe one day you're just a bit miffed at him/her. If you already have in place habits that keep you from being in tempting situations, you're a helluva lot safer relationship-wise than people who let themselves into situations that might be innocent during the ga-ga times but a tad more tempting when things aren't so hot at home.
My habits about how I interact with other males are just part of who I am now. I don't actively think, "Oh, I have to be very careful around So-and-so..." It's just natural. It's part of loving my husband, I think.
Frankly, if my husband were in this thread posting the way some folks here are about other women in their lives (or single guys about married women), I'd be heartbroken. I'd hate to think my husband found it all right to feel flirtatious with female friends he felt close to before we were together. Or to feel romantic feelings for them now. It would hurt me too bad.
And, since he was betrayed in his first marriage, when he and I became exclusive, he pulled back from his flirtatious female friendships. Most were fine with that: a kind of "okay, she snagged ya, so I'll become less important to you and I'll let her be your best friends now." One woman was quite hurt and hasn't communicated with him since, and all he did was tell her he didn't wish to meet her alone for drinks any more because he was seriously dating someone else.
As his *wife* I appreciate that exclusive way he treats our relationship in return. When both parties do it, it does create a sort of heady respect I've never experienced before. It's voluntary for both of us, and it makes me happy to know we're taking things seriously.
Because, well, crap happens in the real world.
It may be a different sort of honesty than how you exercise yours, though.
(FWIW, assuming you're in the U.S., you'd be surprised at the rights you have as a single father. Trust me -- she's not less vulnerable because you didn't marry her. A father who wanted to rake a woman over the coals for custody could do so in this society, marriage or not.)
It seems although I have forgotten my primary operating axiom here, "everyone is different." My point of view is as unique as yours and it has much to do with our individual experience as it does with our differing personalities. In other words, I apologize if I come off as a know-it-all.
Not one size fits all, and if your way works for you there is no reason I should be so adamant about my point of view if it does.
I have just always been close with a few select people, most of them women, I have had intimate relationships in which fears thoughts and emotions have been shared at the deepest levels. All this without feeling the need to cheat on the person I was with at the time, save once. That one person is so dear to me that it hurts sometimes, we diverged at a point in our lives in which there was so much unsaid, so much unfinished business. In all others I have managed to get beyond the very strong sexual, emotional and intellectual attractions. I don't know if it is because of the fact that we left off on the terms we did or if it is just "meant to be," and I cannot not know for sure. I hate unfinished business, it dogs you like a stalking lion, it grates on you like a dissonant note, it makes you crazy with "what ifs." At least it does me.
This is the difference for me. getting beyond all these very strong emotions and finishing it so we can go about our lives knowing that our place has been solidified. Knowing we are friends, lovers or man and wife.
That is the reason I am so strong in favor of letting things air out before this clinging sensation takes hold. It hurts too much not to know, and I finished being hurt a long time ago. Or so I thought.
thmilin
12-10-06, 11:40 PM
i agree totally with austruck, sleezy.
and you, having been down that route before, now she's right, but you are now feeling this relationship is something different than the previous variation - this is a great and fabulous friendship.
that it may very well be, but a great friendship between a male and female, where one feels love, and the other feels at least attraction and perhaps more, is not going to be able to remain a simple, great friendship.
it is going to get complicated. complicated makes room for ugly, and makes room for pain, and makes room for big, bad, can't take it back mistakes.
it basically drops you smack in the middle of a minefield. if this were war, your company would totally avoid that minefield knowing good and well there is NO COMMON SENSE, and 99% chance of blowing off limbs, killing comrades, and being somewhere so awful you have no chance of taking it back. there are NO do-overs.
when austruck says she guards her relationship, and why, that's what you have to look at. she is actively and protectively warding wherever she can to preserve something she values highly.
your coworker is not doing that. she has therefore planted one foot onto the minefield and is thinking about walking through it.
your heart wants you to run headlong through that minefield, knows you lost a foot last time, and yet you're thinking, if we walk it this OTHER route, we can come out great friends, i'll get to know her family, we'll hang out, she and i will be A-OK.
as if you can forget you love her? as if you can forget, standing there shaking her husband's hand on a Sunday for dinner, that this is the man who has her, and you don't? as if you can forget, hugging her goodbye as you grow closer and have coffee alone and her husband is with the kids at soccer practice, that she smells SO good, feels SO right, makes you laugh SO hard, makes your life SO much better ...
that you want her? love her? want more of her? want her attention? want her attention SOLELY on you? want her romantic feelings SOLELY on you? WANT something from her you a) should not expect her to give b) she should not be hoping you'll ask for?
because she's hoping. when austruck mentions the accountability of humanity, she's mentioning that we are flawed and human. that we are NOT automatons of constant perfect moral fibre. that no matter what good sense we have that the more we inch toward a minefield because we want something on the other side, the more likely we are to justify walking through it, the more easy that justification comes, until ...
oops. you've got both feet in it, she's standing in it with you, and you're running like hell hoping:
a) her husband, kids, cousins, aunts, sisters
b) your friends, family,
c) your shared coworkers
don't find out. don't get hurt.
don't think you can play this game and win. you know the odds. trying to stay friends is kidding yourself, is assuming you aren't human, that you have a superhuman, unbendable will, that you are 100% for sure not going to mess up.
since i'm not omnipotent, i'm not going to say it's not IMPOSSIBLE for you to make it through the minefield as total platonic friends who laugh off the crush, and she one day meets your girlfriend, and you and her husband are pals, and you feel nothing at all of regret or longing when with her, nor lack anything when without her.
but that is a 1% chance scenario for something you already tested and braved once. in that scenario, she wanted you back and left her man and ... didn't want you any more.
she's as human as you are. you can't predict, plan for, or expect anything of her own actions. now, or in the future.
just because she hints and makes it clear and lingers and seeks your attention and company does not mean she's in love with you. nor does it mean she thinks of you only platonically.
she could just love her husband greatly and be a little bored, and you're so unique and exciting, and you reciprocate, and wow she's never felt this before with anyone, not even him and oh wow she wants to spend time with you and oh wow you're so cute and oh wow what would you be like in bed and oh wow how exciting and crazy!
think of this is a female midlife crisis. women are capable of straying and needing to be desired and following that gut hunger for a hot fiery connection they're not getting in their day to day. everyone has that longing, everyone wants to see what it's like "on the other side." good people who love their spouses are perfectly capable of being utterly loyal and perfectly matched to their spouse and of seeing another specimen and finding them intensely attractive and special, unique, engaging, and new.
that does not mean they should pursue that relationship. yes, there's something wild, new, POTENTIALLY fulfilling on the other side of that glass, an inch away from your touch ...
but at one point, she felt something similar for a man who has already given himself to her, and to whom she's already given to herself.
it is unfair to put her in that position. she's putting herself there, but it's unfair of YOU to put her there. it's selfish of YOU. you know it. and she's a little dazed, a little caught up, turning forgetful of what she knows, deep down, just like austruck knows.
to be the strong one, you must:
a) acknowledge your strong feelings
b) acknowledge she may have them
c) acknowledge she is not in a position to explore them with you
d) not put her in a position to WANT to explore them with you.
everyone feels a heady thrill when they meet someone knew they click with. i'm not saying this thrill isn't more powerful or different.
think back to kindergarten, when you met and made that first new friend. you wanted to spend every minute of every day with them, to knowt hem inside and out, to be special and unique to them, to tell the whole wild world you were bonded and a special pair, and they were YOURS.
we still do that as adults, but we forget about how we felt that crazy thrill every time, with every new person. we forget it's possible with many, many people. we think, it's rare, so unusual. it isn't actually, you just aren't meeting the right people to trigger that thrill.
so when you meet someone who triggers it, you get all shellshocked and hungry for more - to spend every minute together, to know all about them, to get inside their head and hearts, to show them off, to let them inside you.
but life is bigger than you and that desire, and you learned that with new friendships when you left kindergarten, high school, college. life is about choices, situations, and your capacity to accept YOUR impact on others, and to recognize THEIR impact on you, and on others.
know that here, you may need to give this wonderful woman space to recognize what she is risking. space to think about what she really wants, that she may have forgotten to protect a great relationship and a man she already loves, because she got caught up in the thrill of meeting you.
it could mean so many things, she could DO so many things, it could end so many different ways. you'll only find out if you go there but going there will cause you all to pay a great price, and trying to be close platonic friends when your heart is all on fire is risking that price big time.
i'm not discounting othelo's personal experience with individuals, but I am raising the 1) married 2) children 3) coworker 4) age difference. she's in a situation, and you know better.
i'd say you should very gently, very firmly, have a talk with her. do NOT tell her your feelings. telling a woman who's already courting you that you're in love with her invites her to make big choices, and she is already walking close to those landmines. you need to guide her gently away so she doesn't jump headlong into them and inspire you to do so, too.
something like ...
I have never had such a strong friendship with an older person, let alone with a woman. But I have courted a married woman before, and it didn't end well, for her family or for our relationship. I'm afraid that you and I are so excited about meeting someone we click with so well we might be ignoring the bigger picture, and I most certainly do not want to encourage you to hurt your family or pull away from your husband. You have someone who loves you at home, and it's one thing if you'd just like to get to know me a little better and openly include me in things outside of work while he knows. But it's another thing entirely you prefer to spend time with me over him, and not be honest about actively wanting that or pursuing it.
No matter how much fun we're having, this isn't about just you and me. It's not always about what thrills us, or what we want. So maybe we should take it a little easy, and maybe see each other here and there, try double dates or bowling nights - but I really think we should be careful about anything more intimate, because that's not fair to you, me, or your husband and family.
--
when you say something like that she'll get a wake up call, and be forced to think about her actions, yours, and what she wants.
no matter what you might think, even if you think you were (in the past) not actively convincing someone to leave their husband and break up their family, by simply BEING THERE (as austruck said) you were INVITING trouble. you were creating a possibility for someone else to latch onto, to think about, to circle around, to lift that foot and venture out into a minefield.
by NOT being there, by NOT allowing yourself to be *considered* - by saying i am NOT going to play this game, i am NOT going to pretend we can just be friends and hang out a whole lot without trouble - you are avoiding trouble, keeping yourself sane, and, above all ...
being honorable. do right by her, and do right by you.
Okay, well... here's the update. When I wrote that first post, I was feeling pretty lonely. I haven't had a very good week, and it's been a loooong time since I've been with anyone in a romantic sense. The other night at the party, I was in some small way reminded of what that feels like - and for the first real moment, I looked at this woman and pictured as best I could what it would be like if the cards had fallen a little more in our favor. A huge, tortuous mistake, I know... because it made me feel like, "Here's a woman who embodies everything that I'm looking for, and there's no way in this world or any other that I could ever have her." That's just about the most debilitating feeling I've had in years.
However...
Today, I'm alright. I believe the human heart interprets real life quite a bit differently than the brain. It doesn't account for reason or social prudence. It just responds to patterns, and this time, the pattern was: "hey, in the area of compatibility, this woman is the solution to my problem," and so it felt accordingly. This, I believe, is an inherent human response, and perfectly alright - not only because it proves that I'm capable of emotionally analyzing another and feeling for them, but also because it doesn't have to supercede logic. Some people have little or no self-control. But I know what I can't do, and I know that following just your heart will get it (and other hearts) broken faster than anything.
But I don't think I necessarily agree that just because there's a chance something might happen (if both of us gave in selfishly to what we know we can't have), that means we should avoid each other. It's precisely the same position I hold regarding political correctness: the idea that we shouldn't say something because it might offend someone is both ridiculous and backward.
Yes, I know the dangers. I'm not sure how she feels. I'm only working off my own interpretation of the signals she sends me, some of which I might be erroneously skewing. I can't bring myself to believe that one should be held hostage by their own heart. This woman and I are friends, have been for a year or so; we share a strong kindred spirit kind of connection; she makes sense to me, and I think I make sense to her. It's only natural to expect that, at some point, one or both of us - as per the human heart's function - will at least for a moment 'consider' a deeper feeling. One step into the mine field, of course... but quite often, you can't help but take that first step into the mine field before you even know it's a mine field. It's up to the individual to use their brain. I know what to do. I can't say she knows what to do, but I know what I would do if she didn't.
At this point, I just can't see the logic in saying, "Oh, well we've been such great friends, but the other night, my heart sorta had you in mind, so now it's probably best that we don't speak anymore." If we had, in a moment of non-thinking, made out... then yes, definitely. But I've never even said to her, "Hey, you're an awesome friend. Thanks." For my part, I'm willing to work at the friendship and mold it so that we know exactly what it is, rather than abandon it at the tiniest glimpse of trouble.
And you know, sadly, I think part of the reason why this is such an issue is because the divorce rate in this country is so high, as a result of our accelerated "fast-food-immediate-satisfaction" lifestyle, not to mention the constant media focus on breakups (everything from "Entertainment Tonight" to films like The Break-Up to "Jerry Springer" and beyond). And I think a lot of this has terrified people into building castle walls around their marriages, as if they couldn't survive outside with the right amount of cultivation. It's one thing to stand behind bulletproof glass, and quite another to be bulletproof.
Here's a story:
The first married woman I mentioned, her husband was jealous of me, but only because he had prior insecurities that he had never addressed. Rather than talking with his wife about it (and boy did she try to get him to talk), he just let it fester, and withdrew further and further from her until she had no choice but to leave him. I was a symptom of their problem, perhaps. But their marriage died not because of me, but because it didn't take the time to 'get its shots', so to speak. Yeah, their marriage would have been 'fine' if she had ignored me and every other guy she got along with. But no, it wouldn't have really been fine, because the guy would never take the opportunity to alleviate his own insecurities and rebuild his house-of-cards marriage with bricks.
The point is, what's valuable in life is worth working on... constantly and patiently. I don't believe there's a quick fix for anything worth living for.
Now, having said that, I'm going to claim all of this as my own beliefs. None of it was intended to criticize anyone else's beliefs or marriages, particularly those of you who are so very kindly posting in my thread. I really do appreciate everything that is being said, and while it may not actually sound like it, I'm stowing all this in my brain, knowing full well that I'm still without quite a bit of experience in this area... versus those of you who have been through it, and have made things work. I won't pretend to suggest that I'm right, and that I won't screw up and turn all this into a sordid mess. But I'm not one to cut my losses, especially since this woman and I have hardly got started on even a platonic relationship, much less any other. I'm willing to go a little further, feel out the territory, and see if we can't find a nitch where we can be friends and nobody else will cry wolf.
I'm glad you have been able to find a place of peace about this. My obviously divergent opinion was not just to play devil's advocate but it is truly how I feel.
I can't imagine a life free from the possibility of harm. Minimization of that possibility yes, but insulating oneself because feelings may erupt seems very dangerous to me. I have always been painfully honest with the people I love and for the most part it has paid off. I guess to some saying "I love you" is a loaded statement. Not to me.
The thing I can't help but feel is that actions are far more important that words in this arena of battle (to steal a metaphor). Your actions towards or with this woman are potentially far more dangerous than your feelings, after all it isn't the love/lust in your heart that is the sin, it is the consummation of it. If it is the former then why bother not going in to the latter?
I have never felt that any of my platonic female friends have had the opportunity to drive a wedge between myself and my "other" I have never drifted into action that would jeapordize my relationship with my partner. the thoughts and feelings were there but they had softened and changed as a result of getting things out in the open. If the feelings exist, why harbor them and let that be a source of want and a place to go when things get bad with your wife or husband. Therein lies more potential to construct a fantasy world within which you reside then talking about the feelings that are obviously there.
I respect and understand the POV of everyone else who posted here, I guess I just have more self control then most men. When things get bad at home, I don't run into the arms of another to escape what is going on at home, I stand and fight. The person I mentioned before isn't a refuge, nor is she a reaction to what is lacking in my relationship she is a soul-sister who once was a soul-mate.
If things are bad at home and the other person doesn't want to address it there is a much larger problem there than any other person. And that is one of the things these influences teach us, something always comes up, money, sex, friends, if the other person in the relationship wants to live in a vacuum and not talk about the problems that exist, then what is the point of the whole thing? Existing in a state of convenience when one partner strives for more out of the other partner and having that be denied is a far worse betrayal than an affair.
I agree that if things are good between two people there is still the possibility to see that spark in another. But if that discussion isn't immediately had with your partner and there are no lines of communication open to address it, what is the point of living in constant fear of him or her running off with someone else? The relationship is already over at that point and regardless of whether there is another or not, things are not all hunky dory.
Everyone has distractions and casual flirtations, that is not what I am talking about here. The deep meaningful connections people have are sacred in my mind, whether you have them with one or many they are all unique. Each encounter teaches you something about yourself and others. Love is messy, that is its nature. removing that mess makes things sterile and boring to me. Dealing with that mess makes you and your partner stronger and more bound to exclusivity. You may be surprised what the influence of another brings to your relationship.
I don't think meeting the husband or the kids will be as weird if that conversation, the one between you and her, and between her and her husband, comes to pass. Give enough time for the friendship to grow. Who says she hasn't already told him about you and what you (possibly) mean to her. The openness and willingness to share you with her family as you are, seeing what she does see in you would be the greatest compliment to her family. I do believe if this came to pass and her husband is the great guy she believes he is, you will all be able to get past the attraction and see the friendship for what it is, a good solid adult friendship. This is how we grow. Besides there is always the possibility that she will have a younger cousin just like her :)
This will be my last post on the subject since I have exhausted my repertoire of English language words to adequately express my point of view. I just hope that things progress and grow with the friendship and that you find in a more appropriate partner, someone who makes you truly happy.
I guess to some saying "I love you" is a loaded statement. Not to me.
Well, I'm not one to put that phrase on too high a pedestal, but I definitely think a lot of people throw it around wantonly and without regard for the feelings of others. I've had people tell me they loved me, and then take it back. That hurts. You shouldn't say it unless you really mean it, and you show it; and you should NEVER take it back (unless the other person tries to kill you or kicks your cat or something equally awful).
The thing I can't help but feel is that actions are far more important that words in this arena of battle (to steal a metaphor). Your actions towards or with this woman are potentially far more dangerous than your feelings, after all it isn't the love/lust in your heart that is the sin, it is the consummation of it. If it is the former then why bother not going in to the latter?
Yeah, ultimately it's our actions which we have control over. Our feelings? Not so much. I've had 'feelings' for plenty of people, and I can't see how I wouldn't still have 'feelings' for others even if I was married. It's just a natural human reaction. It doesn't mean I'm going to run off, or that I wouldn't value my significant other to the same degree. If I choose to marry someone, I'm going to be sure of it, and it's going to be forever. (Which is why I'm so picky about who I date.)
The person I mentioned before isn't a refuge, nor is she a reaction to what is lacking in my relationship she is a soul-sister who once was a soul-mate.
Yes. This is exactly the way I want to think of this woman. She's a kindred spirit, a soul-mate - but she's also the big sister I always wanted and never had. Like I said, I value her more for the person she is, and what she can bring to my life; rather than the relationship we "could have had" in some distant, bizarro continuum.
I don't think meeting the husband or the kids will be as weird if that conversation, the one between you and her, and between her and her husband, comes to pass. Give enough time for the friendship to grow. Who says she hasn't already told him about you and what you (possibly) mean to her. The openness and willingness to share you with her family as you are, seeing what she does see in you would be the greatest compliment to her family.
I've actually already met her husband on one or two occasions, and I know her biological daughter fairly well. They seem like really nice, down-to-earth, normal people. I get the impression that her husband is leery of me, knowing that I'm a 23-year old guy in college. I completely understand where he's coming from in that respect, and I know that at some point, after her and I have a firm understanding of what our friendship is, then I'll be talking to him. To be honest, I'd kinda like to get to know and be friends with him, too. If she picked him, then he's gotta be as sharp as she is.
I guess I'm just an anomaly. I've got friends my age, and they're some of the best friends I could ever ask for. But sometimes, they like to go out and drink, and sit around cracking fart jokes and damning liberals, and watch stupid movies... and in a lot of ways, that just isn't me. I like people who are fair-minded and mature, and she's that and more. I've never seen someone who knows who they are and what they're about, but hasn't let themselves become cynical and grumpy. She's always smiling and making snarky comments. She just has a sharp, wholesome disposition, and socially speaking, that really stimulates me.
This will be my last post on the subject since I have exhausted my repertoire of English language words to adequately express my point of view. I just hope that things progress and grow with the friendship and that you find in a more appropriate partner, someone who makes you truly happy.
Thanks for posting, man. You've provided a lot of reasonable insight, and you seem to feel the same way about things as I do. I'm really glad to hear you've made things work in your own life, and I wish you well. Be seeing you around. :)
Sexy Celebrity
12-11-06, 01:16 PM
Well, I didn't read every single paragraph in this thread, but, I think what you need to do is move away from the married chica you're hanging around with and find a SINGLE older woman to go date.
Go to one of those personal dating websites and make an ad. Mention that you're seeking out more mature women. Fall madly in love with the right lady and you'll just think of this relationship with the married co-worker as training. But don't go talking about this other women with your future gal a lot or she'll get upset.
There are lots of older women out there who are looking for younger men. Sex therapist Valerie Gibson calls these ladies "cougars". Your future love goddess will be glad she found you! Go to match.com and get started.
thmilin
12-11-06, 04:08 PM
Hehehe, sexy's funny.
re: "back away and have nothing to do with her" - that wasn't my advice. my advice is more - you may be convincing yourself platonic friendship is completely possible, likely, and viable right now, and you want that above all else.
which is fine. i'm saying, that's a risk right now, because you are very aware of wanting her, and based on your descriptions of her behavior, she is very aware of that want, and possibly very aware of her own want.
wanting can be dangerous, because in your own words, heart and mind don't always operate together. that can be good ...
as in, you feel for her but separate it and befriend her platonically, no harm done.
or it can be bad ...
as in, your brain tells you one thing and your heart, in the moment, takes you down another path and, under pressure, your heart ignores your brain on purpose for the sake of fulfilling wants. i'm not even talking about sex, i'm talking about seeing each other privately more and more as "friends". we all know the cliche of "oh, we're just friends," when you start defending your constant desire to be together as a mere friendship when deep down a) you don't want it to be b) you aren't really behaving platonically if there are FEELINGS behind your ACTIONS and c) you know it really isn't just because of a and b. that's why you defend it in the first place - you know darn good and well whaty ou're doing and what it looks like, you just don't want to believe that of yourselves.
note her comments about "we're going to start rumors." she knows, and so do you. when she makes a playful comment instead of leaving the door open, she knows.
anyway, i'm not saying ditch the woman. i'm saying, talk about things now, openly. and actively discuss what you both will and will not do, to protect yourselves and her family from any potential hazards. what austruck was saying she does implicitly and her male friends respect and understand.
note that a soul friend is rare and is most often the person you're married to and love. they are your romantic AND platonic symbiotic relationship.
that's why most people get wary when they see another platonic soul friend come around.they know that's what they should be to their mate, and it's not to say a person can't have more than one soul friend.
the issue is that when you find one of the opposite sex and you're hetero, it can be difficult not to grow more attached than you should to that friend.
but you sound reasonable enough so whatever you do, however it goes, i wish you both well, and that you both end up with a happy platonic relationship her hubby and kid are cool with, and all parties end up unhurt and A-OK in the end.
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