An old thought experiment

[Lockheed Martin]

When I was studying GCSE History I was once set a rather interesting piece of homework. It was a simple question that we had to answer to test our knowledge of social forces and the role of individuals in history. It was:

You're sitting in a Vienna cafe in the mid-1920's, opposite you is a young man who's just been rejected from a local art school. His name is Adolf Hitler. What do you do?

For the purposes of this exercise:


You are a normal German citizen, you speak german fluently, have a history and a background in Germany including family and all relavent papers of citizenship.


You retain your knowledge of the events after the Second World War.


You retain your personality.


You have no proof that you're actually from the future, nor are you exceptionally rich, powerful or in anyway super-human.


You cannot return to your own time.
Well, that's it. What would your answers be? I've gathered a lot down the years, some people have come up with very imaginative ones. Mine's still my favourite though, but I'll post that later.

oh, I got an A for my answer, if anyone was curious. The only one in the class. Booyah.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Introduce myself ("Hi, my name's... Lukas"), offer to look at his artwork ("Lemme see whatcha got there, A"), buy him a few beers, talk ("Drink up, you've just been rejected"), discuss art ("I've seen lots of paintings of men killing their fathers"), bring him back to my German abode ("It's just right over there. I'm alone and I keep it warm.") give him Ecstasy which I've brought along from the future ("It's just Aspirin to help with your dejected soul"), and then tap that Hitler ass, of course ("Stop hugging me and bend over!").

According to historian Lothar Machtan, who wrote The Hidden Hitler, Adolf boi was gay. His lovers in the past may have failed in stopping Hitler from becoming the monster that he was, but I, Sexy Celebrity German style, could certainly prevent World War II in this situation.

http://db.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/images/hitler_adolf.jpg

Woof!

[adidasss]

having sex with pure evil.....intriguing....

i'd kill him...simple as that....yes, i'm very unimaginative....

[Pyro Tramp]

I think i'd let him be, sure he did some terrible things but you never know what the world would be like now without WW2.

Think histories best left to be.

[Purandara88]

Try to angle for a post in the coming Thousand Year Reich, eventually establishing my prescient knowledge of coming events and using that to convince Hitler to pursue a different war strategy post 1940.

Now if it's say, Lenin circa 1905, I slit his throat with a butter knife and go about my business...

[Lockheed Martin]

Try to angle for a post in the coming Thousand Year Reich, eventually establishing my prescient knowledge of coming events and using that to convince Hitler to pursue a different war strategy post 1940.

Now if it's say, Lenin circa 1905, I slit his throat with a butter knife and go about my business...

Just a place? For some reason I'd have thought you'd have gone for the top job.

Not a bad plan, Sexy. Although you should be sure to use protection, it's almost certain that Hitler had aquired syphilis at some point before the 20's. Oh, and I think the Hitler was Gay theory has been fairly thoroughly refuted. Which is a shame, a few musical numbers would have cheered up Downfall no end.

[Purandara88]

Just a place? For some reason I'd have thought you'd have gone for the top job.

Much better to have the ear of the man with the inside track on the job than to stand in his way and get steamrolled.

[Monkeypunch]

Try to angle for a post in the coming Thousand Year Reich, eventually establishing my prescient knowledge of coming events and using that to convince Hitler to pursue a different war strategy post 1940.

My god, I just have the overwhelming urge to kick you in the groin over and over again untill you vomit and then pass out from the pain. :furious:

[Lockheed Martin]

Much better to have the ear of the man with the inside track on the job than to stand in his way and get steamrolled.

Just remember that Adolf H. got a real kick out of schadenfreude, your passion for the job might dissipate around the fifty-third banana-skin-on-the-floor-of-the-Reichschancellery gag. That or the first dispatch-you-to-Birkenau howler.

As for myself, I'd also try and get in Hitler's rather short good book. Keep myself dull and stoic, but capable and fairly highly placed in the party's organizational structure. When the man with the comical moustache finally came to power I'd angle myself a job as head of the civil service. From there bureaucratic fudging, incompetence and rife corruption begins with abadon. Of course, I'd have to temper it so I don't get killed too soon, but hopefully I could get a good few years of lost memos, delayed reports and outright indolency in before the firing squad. Imagine the damage you could do to the government of the Reich just by being a grey man in a suit with a secret agenda and the sort of trust that comes from being involved from the begining.

[Purandara88]

Imagine the damage you could do to the government of the Reich just by being a grey man in a suit with a secret agenda and the sort of trust that comes from being involved from the begining.

Didn't Goering pretty much corner that market already?

[Alvin]

I'd let him be, and go off and be a scientist in some other country. I don't think I'd be prepared to suffer to consequences of murdering him. Yes, I realise that the consequence of leaving him alive be would be the deaths of millions of people, but at least that way there's a decent chance that I would survive.

There's plenty of useful I stuff I could 'discover' if I were free; how to build a nuclear bomb, for instance.

[Lockheed Martin]

Didn't Goering pretty much corner that market already?
[/size]

Fair point, but his blunders more likely arose from the stress of his many briefs and his addiction to painkillers. I'm fairly sure I could've made things even worse and not lost Hitler's confidence so quickly.

Alvin - that's a unique one, I've never encountered anyone who'd try and hand the bomb to the Allies earlier. Things could've have gone very differently in that world, imagine a nuclear strike against central europe, or using it to a force a diplomatic victory. Hitler could've been in power for decades after.

There's probably a good counterfactual in that situation.

[Equilibrium]

Hey Adolf, lets see this artwork.

Ah, very nice.

Thats how the conversation would start. It would end with "it was nice meeting you, and I one day hope you make the correct choices"

I would't want to force a change in the course of history, you kill hitler and who knows a worse candidate could have been the head of the third reich. Maybe the person who plays the role of hitler focuses his efforts on the nuclear bomb and destroys half the world. You can't judge history by the events caused by a single man. Its not possible because there are too many variables in situations like this.

Not to sound crude but the death of millions of jews was or is the course of history that has set up where we (the world) are today. Now think to yourself, Is it really such a bad place? do you know how much good has come out of it? I know alot of you here are against the Israeli goverment like me, but seriously, it could be alot worse. It is too selfish to alter the course of history by killing hitler, you would change too much and deny too many people sucess.

[Alvin]

Alvin - that's a unique one, I've never encountered anyone who'd try and hand the bomb to the Allies earlier. Things could've have gone very differently in that world, imagine a nuclear strike against central europe, or using it to a force a diplomatic victory. Hitler could've been in power for decades after.

Well, there'd be plenty of other stuff I could explain to them, or at least set them on the right track. I reckon I'd be looking at a good few Nobel Prizes. Also, I'd be sure to make a bit of cash Back to the Future 2 style.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I'd convince him that he was a brilliant artist*, should keep at it til he finds a school with vision, and if he started showing signs of going political I'd get him hooked on drugs. Nothing stops a life in it's tracks like heroin.

*this strategy has no bearing on any compliments I may have doled out in the Mofo Art Gallery. ;)

[chicagofrog]

Nothing stops a life in it's tracks like heroin.


good one. :D
even if it's "itS" :p
("it's its", just noticed, maybe one to remember in order not to mistake a verb with a possessive pronoun/adjective the next time)

[adidasss]

ok, first of all, i volunteer to assasinate the above grammar nazi....:D

second, martin, i was really expecting something much more efficient than screwing with some papers as a burocrat....fairly dissapointing actually....i would have flunked your ass for that in fact....:D

also, to whom ever said that something much worse might have happened...i really don't see what could be worse than the second world war...the amount of destruction was unparallel, i think the most humans could acomplish in such a short period of time and with the weapons that were at hand....

so there is no doubt in my mind that things could only get better if he was killed...he WAS the mastermind of the nazi movement was he not?

so yes, what i would do is ask him to show me his artwork...get him in a secluded place and kill him in cold blood....leave no trace of myself...then, since i can't go back, i would carefully watch for anyone that might replace him and is spreading hate amongst the germans....then i would assasinate each and every one of them...and wouldn't feel the least bit guilty.....

of course, i'm also of the belief that everything that happens has its reasons.....

[SamsoniteDelilah]

ok, first of all, i volunteer to assasinate the above grammar nazi....:D
hee!

...so yes, what i would do is ask him to show me his artwork...get him in a secluded place and kill him in cold blood....leave no trace of myself...then, since i can't go back, i would carefully watch for anyone that might replace him and is spreading hate amongst the germans....then i would assasinate each and every one of them...and wouldn't feel the least bit guilty.....

of course, i'm also of the belief that everything that happens has its reasons.....
I'd have no compunction about killing him, if it came to that, knowing that I might save so many innocent people. You raise the followup issue here though, that isn't really accounted for in the initial question: that while he was the leader/mastermind, he wasn't the only guy with these ideas. And if not for the socio-economic climate in Germany at the time, he could not have gotten the sort of stronghold that he did. Things in Germany were so bad that people in factories were being paid a couple of times a DAY, because by the end of the week, inflation would have cost the company more to pay them for the work. (The People's Chronology, by James Trager) People were looking for someone to blame. Hitler pointed at the Jews (and the gays and quelle surprise, the artists... and others) but many, many people bought into his scapegoating.

[adidasss]

hee!


I'd have no compunction about killing him, if it came to that, knowing that I might save so many innocent people. You raise the followup issue here though, that isn't really accounted for in the initial question: that while he was the leader/mastermind, he wasn't the only guy with these ideas. And if not for the socio-economic climate in Germany at the time, he could not have gotten the sort of stronghold that he did. Things in Germany were so bad that people in factories were being paid a couple of times a DAY, because by the end of the week, inflation would have cost the company more to pay them for the work. (The People's Chronology, by James Trager) People were looking for someone to blame. Hitler pointed at the Jews (and the gays and quelle surprise, the artists... and others) but many, many people bought into his scapegoating.
yes, but he was undoubtedly the most charismatic of them all...that was what drew so many germans to his ideas, they looked at him as their saviour. so i'm thinking the nazi movement, even if it wouldn't be completely anihilated with his death, would take a serious blow....so serious that they might never recover or become as strong as they were with Hitler as the leader....perhapse remain a small radical party within the parliament....

a good idea would be, after killing him of course, to somehow manage to renegotiate the Versailles peace treaty that was the main cause of such economic conditions in germany at the time...get a group of uber smart people together and try to improve the economic situation so that the people wouldn't feel so desperate....but i think that's almost an impossible task to perform by one self....

[SamsoniteDelilah]

yes, but he was undoubtedly the most charismatic of them all...that was what drew so many germans to his ideas, they looked at him as their saviour. so i'm thinking the nazi movement, even if it wouldn't be completely anihilated with his death, would take a serious blow....so serious that they might never recover or become as strong as they were with Hitler as the leader....perhapse remain a small radical party within the parliament....

a good idea would be, after killing him of course, to somehow manage to renegotiate the Versailles peace treaty that was the main cause of such economic conditions in germany at the time...get a group of uber smart people together and try to improve the economic situation so that the people wouldn't feel so desperate....but i think that's almost an impossible task to perform by one self....
Good point.
They need to make an online game out of that. ;)
"Treaty at Versailles: the Home Version"

[Equilibrium]

ok, first of all, i volunteer to assasinate the above grammar nazi....:D

second, martin, i was really expecting something much more efficient than screwing with some papers as a burocrat....fairly dissapointing actually....i would have flunked your ass for that in fact....:D

also, to whom ever said that something much worse might have happened...i really don't see what could be worse than the second world war...the amount of destruction was unparallel, i think the most humans could acomplish in such a short period of time and with the weapons that were at hand....

so there is no doubt in my mind that things could only get better if he was killed...he WAS the mastermind of the nazi movement was he not?

so yes, what i would do is ask him to show me his artwork...get him in a secluded place and kill him in cold blood....leave no trace of myself...then, since i can't go back, i would carefully watch for anyone that might replace him and is spreading hate amongst the germans....then i would assasinate each and every one of them...and wouldn't feel the least bit guilty.....

of course, i'm also of the belief that everything that happens has its reasons.....

Really now. You kill hitler because you think that killing him would change the course of history?

You are out of your mind. You can postpone certain events from happening but you can't change them and if you do, other negative consequences will occur. time travel has been studied by many psychologist and most of them agree that a "butterfly effect" would occur. you've seen The butterfly Effect right? thats the basic jist.

****, you assasinate hitler, and then you knock off the newly rising leader, and then another and then another.....suddenly you become a legendary assasin and the most despised figure in germany and someone might go back in time to kill you.

Or how about this senario: you assasinate hitler and members of his regime, the rest of the party is convinced that it was the US so they rally the germans (jews and all) and the french and spanish, and the british against the tyrant USA and suddenly the US is no more.With the USA out of its way germany turns into a war juggernut and takes over the world.

Think before you speak adiddas, killing hitler will not solve the problem.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

...You are out of your mind. You can postpone certain events from happening but you can't change them and if you do, other negative consequences will occur. ...
Thank you, Doc Brown.
You just told someone they're out of their mind because their vision of what would happen in a theoretical course of events is different from what you imagine. NO one knows for sure, so what's with the 'tude?

[adidasss]

Really now. You kill hitler because you think that killing him would change the course of history?

You are out of your mind. You can postpone certain events from happening but you can't change them and if you do, other negative consequences will occur. time travel has been studied by many psychologist and most of them agree that a "butterfly effect" would occur. you've seen The butterfly Effect right? thats the basic jist.

****, you assasinate hitler, and then you knock off the newly rising leader, and then another and then another.....suddenly you become a legendary assasin and the most despised figure in germany and someone might go back in time to kill you.

Or how about this senario: you assasinate hitler and members of his regime, the rest of the party is convinced that it was the US so they rally the germans (jews and all) and the french and spanish, and the british against the tyrant USA and suddenly the US is no more.With the USA out of its way germany turns into a war juggernut and takes over the world.

Think before you speak adiddas, killing hitler will not solve the problem.
ok, first of all, you ain't the boss of me!

second, if you look at the first post, the situation is when hitler is about 20 and just kicked out of art school...therefore, he has not yet been involved into the whole nazi scene and therefore noone would miss him....

thirdly, i'll say it again....what could be worse than the second world war? can you imagine something worse happening at that stage of the human development? i can imagine an all out nuclear war happening NOW , but not back then...back then...it got as bad as it could....

so yes, i would take that chance and take him out....and lets see what happens....can't be any worse than it was....i'm sure of it...

[Lockheed Martin]

Calm done, chaps. It's all hypothetical.

Assassinating Hitler would probably be a bad idea. He wasn't the philosophical founder of national socialism, nor was he one of its most charismatic proponants. He probably was the most ruthless, though. It's likely the nazi party would have risen to prominence without him, remember they were voted into power. The public condoned them. National Socialism took advantage of rife anti-semitism in Germany and throughout Europe/Russia, as well as the economic situation that resulted from the Wall Street Crash, residual bitterness over defeat in the first world war and the general feeling that Germany was a side-lined nation in the world.

The real danger in assassinating Hitler would be the liklihood that he'd be replaced by a fascistic leader that was more competent, or more open to diplomacy. The world was tired after the Great War and the Wall Street Crash and, at the time, communism represented a greater political threat to the status quo than fascism. Also, there was sympathy and support for the fascists in most nations, including Britain and America, and it took a lot on Hitler's part to drive them into declaring war. The elimination of "undesirables" and the Russian invasion probably would have been executed without western Europe or the US intervening.

Even if this hypothetical other leader of Germany had pursued Hitler's military ambitions he might not have made some of the msitakes Hitler did. A leader who, say, attacked Britain and the Soviet Union in turn rather than concurrently, or made better provisions for the Russian winter, probably would have victored in Europe. The allies came perilously close to defeat a number of times during the war and it's only due to Germany's errors that they emerged the eventual winners, really.

And even if you totally averted the rise of fascism in Germany, there's a lot we owe the war. Massive advances in technology, the civil rights movement, the welfare state (sorry America, read MediCare there), the massive drop in public anti-semitism, the dismantling of European empires and the rise of America to global dominance. There's a good chance the world we live in today would be a lot closer to fascist Germany than we may like to think if there hadn't been the nazis to hold a mirror up to the worst of the West. I know it's not much in the face of the massive loss of life that war caused, but in the long run it the consequences have been largely good for the majority of people.

Churchill on the use of lethal and non-lethal gas, to illustrate my point that politics before the war were closer to Nazi Germany's than is usually thought (1919):

I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes

adidasss - My logic in being nothing more than a bureaucrat is that I could allow events to unfold pretty much the way they did, but hasten the allies eventual victory and ameliorate some of the worst excesses of Nazi policy.

[chicagofrog]

ok, first of all, i volunteer to assasinate the above grammar nazi....:D


Adidasss and others,
judging by what i read in many forums, newspapers, and comparing the orthography of Americans with other English (not even other languages) native speakers from Britain, yeah, seems like the average American cannot write correctly cuz he/she is anti-nazi. :eek: :eek:

heehee. :p

[chicagofrog]

****, you assasinate hitler, and then you knock off the newly rising leader, and then another and then another


same thing with grammar nazis, hey!
:D :D

[adidasss]

Adidasss and others,
judging by what i read in many forums, newspapers, and comparing the orthography of Americans with other English (not even other languages) native speakers from Britain, yeah, seems like the average American cannot write correctly cuz he/she is anti-nazi. :eek: :eek:

heehee. :p
bless you for trying to teach us proper grammar....but try not to nit pick so much eh?

[chicagofrog]

nit pick so much eh?

the concept of nit-picking varies, it seems. :rolleyes:
like that guy in my class who would ask the teacher after a long loooong explanation of the cases in German:
"hei, i got it all... except... what's the difference between dative and perfect tense?" :D :D :D
yeah, real story.
but you use "nit-pick" and i like the word, so you're forgiven (that and you are a Croatian...) ;) :p ;)

[SamsoniteDelilah]

...There's a good chance the world we live in today would be a lot closer to fascist Germany than we may like to think if there hadn't been the nazis to hold a mirror up to the worst of the West. I know it's not much in the face of the massive loss of life that war caused, but in the long run it the consequences have been largely good for the majority of people.
Not debating the truth of that, it's a horrifying thought. I was talking with a friend yesterday about the fact that it is so hard to come up with a way to reach the people who don't want to think about politics. It seems like it takes a HUGE disaster before people are willing to look around. So many want a government that will take care of all the details without input from Everyman, and they're consequently incautious about who they trust to be in that government. The route away from fascism seems to be more work than many want to put in.

[Eyes]

why does everybody assume that killing hitler would be the only way to avert the war?