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View Full Version : Next Gen DVD in trouble?


Sedai
03-09-06, 01:51 PM
I am sure everyone that watches DVDs has a this point at least heard of the impending format war on the horizon. Two major companies, in Sony and Toshiba, are raising the banners and letting fly the first volley of media quite soon, and many people are anxious to see if this will turn into another VHS vs Betamax.

The thing is, it might not even matter... if Hollywood has their say. A slew of coverage has emerged this week focusing on not the format of these discs, but the security that will reside upon them. Advanced Access Content System (AACS), is a hardware level copy protection scheme that is being developed by a group of major motion picture studios. What is AACS? It's bad news.

The protocol will enforce a strict ban on any and all HDTVs that do not use HDMI or DVI input. That's right, if you hooked up with that sweet CRT HDTV a couple of years ago, with the brand new component video hook-ups, you know, just to stay ahead of the curve, to be ready for the future, you will not be able to watch the next gen discs on your TV without a massive downsample hit, or perhaps, you won't be able to watch them at all.

The studios had a bad year last year, and you, the consumer, are to be punished for it. Is piracy to blame for poor ticket sales last year? It hasn't been shown to be so, by any conclusive evidence. Bah, they don't need evidence. Just put it in place anyway! Yes, it IS already in place, and Toshiba and Sony are just starting to get licensing on this stuff, hence that massive delay on the PS3 and in other areas of the HD-DVD industry.

So what, I don't even have an HD-TV yet man!

So What, I have a new Plasma, and it has HDMI, man!

First of all, don't call me man. I'm the dude...man. If you don't have an HDTV yet, you will still be affected, and I will tell you the reason why, which plays into the second sentence above.

Most new plasma TVs have multiple inputs, including component, and the required HDMT input, but almost all the current line of plasma TVs have but one HDMI input. This is fine if all you want to do is hook up that shiney new HD-DVD player you pre-ordered at Tweeter Etc. But what about your other HD sources, like the aforementioned PS3? What about your nice HD cable box? Don't want to miss out on that awesome broadcast of the hockey game, but blast it, this new DVD player won't let me do analog conversion without putting a warning screen up and shutting off, because it detects the incorrect data-stream. That means I have to straight in to the TV from the DVD player... Now where do you plug your other HDMi sources in?

More compromise. Hold it here, why are you having to make all these quality compromises on your brand new entertainment system with all the latest and greatest hardware? All to watch a new version of Terminator 2, that was damned overpriced to begin with (these discs will not be cheap, folks).

An AVR isn't the answer, because as of today, not a single AVR exists that has the required HDCP support needed by ACCS. HDCP is the protocol the DVD player will need to see to unlock the HDDVD data.

Also, don't start thinking you will just watch the HD material on your computer. That won't work, either. Sure, ATI and Nvidia have HDCP compatible cards out there, and there are even a couple monitors out there that would do the trick (but just a couple). Unfortunately, the one TI HDCP chip that would render these card compliant with the ACCS standards is not actually present on these cards. Apparently, the slot of the chip is being installed, but not the chip itself. Go figure.

So, like the AVR, there is not a single card out there that will run the new media in the correct format.

Who loses? First, it's the people who did buy a slightly older HD-TV. They just won't have the HDMI input at all, and that TV will never be able to play the full res version of the media. Still, even if they had to suffer that loss, they should still be able to go component analog into their TV and get the (albeit scaled down) somewhat HD converted siignal to play, enjoying sharper resolution than current media offers, as well as the expanded media size. Alas, to do this, the signal would have to get converted, and the studios say that absolutely cannot happen, as then the signal becomes easily pirated. Next would be the current Plasma and HD owners who do have an input that is compliant, but just one. These people will be juggling devices and dealing with scale-down compromise all over the place. Last, anyone who does want to buy the media, might end up in a specialty market, since not many people will be able to play the damn things, and we all know what happens to an item's price when it becomes a specialty.

Who will win? I would think anyone wanting to hook up with a cheap non-compliant HDTV.... I have a feeling they will be rock bottom, very soon...

And during all this, the studios seem to think that no one will be able to hack the ACCS stuff....


Riiiiiight.

Some of the articles, which state about the same thing I posted:

Next-Gen DVD Debacle (http://gear.ign.com/articles/691/691408p1.html)

HD Beat (http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/02/16/copy-protection-on-next-gen-dvds-is-killing-the-future/)

Copy Protection Threat (http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/102/C6524/)

Gizmodo Gadget Blog (http://us.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-media/nextgen-media-screws-early-hdtv-owners-156319.php)

It all comes down to this:

People you don't know, and who don;t knwo you, are placing controls and restrictions on the equipment you buy, and the content you watch/listen to. Hated those previews that were on that DVD last night? You know, the ones you couldn't bypass? That's nothing. Wait until you see what they have in store for you now!

I am thinking the newer upscaling DVD players that are out now for regular DVD media might be the right move...

Dazed&Confused
03-09-06, 04:00 PM
I am sure everyone that watches DVDs has a this point at least heard of the impending format war on the horizon. Two major companies, in Sony and Toshiba, are raising the banners and letting fly the first volley of media quite soon, and many people are anxious to see if this will turn into another VHS vs Betamax.

The thing is, it might not even matter... if Hollywood has their say. A slew of coverage has emerged this week focusing on not the format of these discs, but the security that will reside upon them. Advanced Access Content System (AACS), is a hardware level copy protection scheme that is being developed by a group of major motion picture studios. What is AACS? It's bad news.

The protocol will enforce a strict ban on any and all HDTVs that do not use HDMI or DVI input. That's right, if you hooked up with that sweet CRT HDTV a couple of years ago, with the brand new component video hook-ups, you know, just to stay ahead of the curve, to be ready for the future, you will not be able to watch the next gen discs on your TV without a massive downsample hit, or perhaps, you won't be able to watch them at all.

The studios had a bad year last year, and you, the consumer, are to be punished for it. Is piracy to blame for poor ticket sales last year? It hasn't been shown to be so, by any conclusive evidence. Bah, they don't need evidence. Just put it in place anyway! Yes, it IS already in place, and Toshiba and Sony are just starting to get licensing on this stuff, hence that massive delay on the PS3 and in other areas of the HD-DVD industry.

So what, I don't even have an HD-TV yet man!

So What, I have a new Plasma, and it has HDMI, man!

First of all, don't call me man. I'm the dude...man. If you don't have an HDTV yet, you will still be affected, and I will tell you the reason why, which plays into the second sentence above.

Most new plasma TVs have multiple inputs, including component, and the required HDMT input, but almost all the current line of plasma TVs have but one HDMI input. This is fine if all you want to do is hook up that shiney new HD-DVD player you pre-ordered at Tweeter Etc. But what about your other HD sources, like the aforementioned PS3? What about your nice HD cable box? Don't want to miss out on that awesome broadcast of the hockey game, but blast it, this new DVD player won't let me do analog conversion without putting a warning screen up and shutting off, because it detects the incorrect data-stream. That means I have to straight in to the TV from the DVD player... Now where do you plug your other HDMi sources in?

More compromise. Hold it here, why are you having to make all these quality compromises on your brand new entertainment system with all the latest and greatest hardware? All to watch a new version of Terminator 2, that was damned overpriced to begin with (these discs will not be cheap, folks).

An AVR isn't the answer, because as of today, not a single AVR exists that has the required HDCP support needed by ACCS. HDCP is the protocol the DVD player will need to see to unlock the HDDVD data.

Also, don't start thinking you will just watch the HD material on your computer. That won't work, either. Sure, ATI and Nvidia have HDCP compatible cards out there, and there are even a couple monitors out there that would do the trick (but just a couple). Unfortunately, the one TI HDCP chip that would render these card compliant with the ACCS standards is not actually present on these cards. Apparently, the slot of the chip is being installed, but not the chip itself. Go figure.

So, like the AVR, there is not a single card out there that will run the new media in the correct format.

Who loses? First, it's the people who did buy a slightly older HD-TV. They just won't have the HDMI input at all, and that TV will never be able to play the full res version of the media. Still, even if they had to suffer that loss, they should still be able to go component analog into their TV and get the (albeit scaled down) somewhat HD converted siignal to play, enjoying sharper resolution than current media offers, as well as the expanded media size. Alas, to do this, the signal would have to get converted, and the studios say that absolutely cannot happen, as then the signal becomes easily pirated. Next would be the current Plasma and HD owners who do have an input that is compliant, but just one. These people will be juggling devices and dealing with scale-down compromise all over the place. Last, anyone who does want to buy the media, might end up in a specialty market, since not many people will be able to play the damn things, and we all know what happens to an item's price when it becomes a specialty.

Who will win? I would think anyone wanting to hook up with a cheap non-compliant HDTV.... I have a feeling they will be rock bottom, very soon...

And during all this, the studios seem to think that no one will be able to hack the ACCS stuff....


Riiiiiight.

Some of the articles, which state about the same thing I posted:

Next-Gen DVD Debacle (http://gear.ign.com/articles/691/691408p1.html)

HD Beat (http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/02/16/copy-protection-on-next-gen-dvds-is-killing-the-future/)

Copy Protection Threat (http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/102/C6524/)

Gizmodo Gadget Blog (http://us.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-media/nextgen-media-screws-early-hdtv-owners-156319.php)

It all comes down to this:

People you don't know, and who don;t knwo you, are placing controls and restrictions on the equipment you buy, and the content you watch/listen to. Hated those previews that were on that DVD last night? You know, the ones you couldn't bypass? That's nothing. Wait until you see what they have in store for you now!

I am thinking the newer upscaling DVD players that are out now for regular DVD media might be the right move...

Good thread

A couple of points

1.)As you said most displays have only one HDMI/DVI port but all is not lost. What you need is a HDMI/DVI switcher and while not cheap it's certainly cheaper than buying a brand new display with the required HDMI/DVI ports.

2.)I don't think it will be long before the protection methods are indeed hacked which will allow high definition video over component connections.

Ford
03-09-06, 07:32 PM
I don't think HD DVD is needed yet. Once more people have HDTV's and we lose the analog signal, fine, bring us something new. But people love regular DVD's. They're all we need. The PS3 will be dead if it doesn't come out this year.

Revenant
03-09-06, 07:56 PM
Not everyone is using DVD'S yet and I still use the occasional VHS. It's too soon for a new format. Wait until VHS is absolutely obsolete I say.

mack
03-09-06, 10:06 PM
Not everyone is using DVD'S yet and I still use the occasional VHS. It's too soon for a new format. Wait until VHS is absolutely obsolete I say.

Surely you jest? :D Come into the millenium...man!* :cool:


*pun intended

42minus71
03-09-06, 10:41 PM
Dag, this is some ish all the way around. I have a shiny nice HDTV with DVI input, but no HDMI. Is there a guarantee that DVI will be supported by HD DVD devices? Sony wouldn't really lay down for this and give up Blu-Ray tech would they?

Dazed&Confused
03-19-06, 07:44 PM
Dag, this is some ish all the way around. I have a shiny nice HDTV with DVI input, but no HDMI. Is there a guarantee that DVI will be supported by HD DVD devices? Sony wouldn't really lay down for this and give up Blu-Ray tech would they?

Don't fret, HDMI and DVI are essentially exactly the same, the only difference being that HDMI carries surround sound audio as well as hi def video whereas DVI only carries hi def video. If you have a DVI connection you must use a separate audio connection (coaxial or optical) to get sound.

If you only have a DVI connection on your display and your hd-dvd/blu ray player only has an HDMI connection you can either use adapters or specific cables.

High definition video can actually be carried over analogue connections too (component and VGA) but the signal cannot be encrypted. This is why you need an HDCP compliant HDMI/DVI connection.

Over time I think it is likely that more HD-DVD/Blu Ray players will be released that is compatible with component or VGA connections. It could just be a simple handset hack that activates hi-def over analogue compatibility.

Also, there are already plans to release HD-DVD and Blu Ray players in one.

Ford
03-19-06, 08:01 PM
Personally, I'd rather have an ipod-like device that could hold a hundred movies on it in something close to regular DVD quality with a battery that would last for about ten hours or so than a DVD player that has a marginally better picture and more bonus features.

What you rather have, better portability of your DVD library, or better quality for home viewing?

Dazed&Confused
03-19-06, 08:47 PM
Personally, I'd rather have an ipod-like device that could hold a hundred movies on it in something close to regular DVD quality with a battery that would last for about ten hours or so than a DVD player that has a marginally better picture and more bonus features.

What you rather have, better portability of your DVD library, or better quality for home viewing?

To fit 100's of near DVD quality movies on a device as small as an ipod requires compression technology that doesn't even exist yet. The Sony PSP has DVD like quality and UMDs tend to be around half the size of a DVD in terms of data. That is still over 2gb per movie, which doesn't even equal 50 movies on a 100gb ipod.

I always go for quality over anything else not just picture quality but audio too. A portable device is fine for watching movies when travelling but it doesn't even compare to watching high quality movies on your own home theater. You really need to see video footage in 720p/1080i to appreciate the difference. Also, movies on HD-DVD/Blu Ray will contain DTS HD and Dolby True HD audio soundtracks which obviously far surpasses the audio found on an ipod like device

The visual/audio quality of home theaters are rapidly starting to overtake many cinemas.

Sedai
04-24-06, 04:37 PM
Personally, I'd rather have an ipod-like device that could hold a hundred movies on it in something close to regular DVD quality with a battery that would last for about ten hours or so than a DVD player that has a marginally better picture and more bonus features.

What you rather have, better portability of your DVD library, or better quality for home viewing?

Better quality, hands down. I might be alone here, but why on earth would anyone want to watch a movie on something like an iPod? It is too damn SMALL to enjoy a film on. Part of the cinematic experience for me is the envoloping sound and big picture that let's you fall into the experience. I have tried to watch a couple of films on a collegues PSP, and it was incredibly annoying. I guess if I rode the train a lot, or traveled a lot, it would be a key item to have, but for me, I want the next best thing to being at the theater. Big screen, big sound, high quality...

An Aside:
A while back I went to hang out with some friends at their place in Allston. When we arrived, it was iPod, IBook, PSP city. A bunch of people, sitting around in the living room, and not a single sound was to be heard. People who were sitting RIGHT next to one another were actually Iming instead of talking. I will go right on record stating this is LAME. So ridiculously introverted and LAME!! I drove an hour to chat with the guy I was just on IMs with, while I was at home, and the guy wants to use IMs to talk while we are in the same room? **** man, gas is expensive! You could have saved me 10 bucks, and I wouldn't have to deal with you biting your nails and farting while you sit there typing on IMS. I mean really...talk about social degredation... I could understand a LAN game or something that required multiple users in the same room, but to have a bunch of people over, just to ignore them and sit aro

Another frined I hadn't heard from in over a year calls out of the blue, asks to come hang out, then spends all but 2.6 minutes in the back office trying to DL off Limewire, completely ignoring the other guests, and asking "Could you see if people could talk quietly, they are making too much noise."

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had him leave, and haven't talked to him since....quiet down, indeed...

SamsoniteDelilah
04-24-06, 04:50 PM
Thanks for the info, Sedai.