Jesus Had Nothing.

[r3port3r66]

Most of you who know me on this site, know that I like to ask alot of questions. And most of you know that I have no agenda, no interest in persuading people to be anything other than themselves. My only interest is to read responses and ideas that may broaden my limited knowledge on a topic. Perhaps whoever said "Never talk about religion, or politics" at a party was right. But I feel that most of the members here are intelligent enough to discuss something freely without the threat of being personally critisized for their response.

That said, I was thinking the other day bout Jesus Christ and why he wasn't a wealthy man. By wealthy I mean he didn't have an abundance of gold, or silver. He didn't own many dwellings or livestock. The images I have of Jesus are that he was poor, walked around in a linen robe and preached humbleness (I'm no theologian).

My question(s) is why are some modern American religious leaders*, who preach from the words of The Bible so wealthy? How is it that someone who speaks to the masses about the lessons of Christ own mansions, cars and airplanes? I also wonder why some followers of these groups don't question it.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but how does a person who is deeply religious and believing, donate a portion of their income to the church and not wonder where exactly it goes? What is their motivation?

Maybe I'm wrong (tell me if I am), and most religious leaders are poor and humble. Perhaps I'm being too judgemental myself, maybe hypocritical, but the fact that some church leaders seem to have alot more wealth than the people in their flock, makes me wonder if religion has become more about cash than cause.

*I'm thinking of popular Christian Fundementalists here; the guys that appear on television and in convention centers around the world.

[adidasss]

well that's the difference between protestant/other denominations and chatolics...i'm a chatolic, and chatolic priests don't own mantions or airplanes ( in fact they don't own anything, they live in houses owned by the church as an organisation)...mostly they're humble, granted they're not poor, just normal...no exesses....and i completly agree with you..one of the most importaint messages of Jesus was the lesson of humbleness....

[LordSlaytan]

There are a hell of a lot more people who minister Christianity making low salaries than getting rich. They just don’t get the exposure.

I think it’s like the local news on television. They constantly report on child abductions, murder, accidental death, abuse, etc., so it’s easy to start thinking that all these things are worse now than they ever have been in the past, but they’re not…really. Random murder used to be much more prevalent in ancient times than nowadays, but now we have the mass media to barrage us with this senseless ‘news’.

We see the people on TV preaching and begging for funds while they drive their pink Cadillac’s and screw their thousand dollar whores, and all the while we believe that this is some ‘newer’ trend when it’s not. Charlatans and liars have always been around, but now we see them on TV, when before, we wouldn’t see them until they blew into town to peddle their garbage.

However, the Christian denomination probably has the biggest number of corrupt rich guys in their ranks. That’s my guess anyway, because there are more and more Christian churches that are really more like corporations springing up all over the place. Locally, we have the Portland Christian Centers. There are about 6 or 7 of them, and they all bring in over 3 million a year…and we never see what they do with that money. I knew one of the main ministers personally, and he was making 6 figures every year. Was he corrupt? Is the Christian Center corrupt? I dunno. That kind of money attracts liars and thieves…so who knows?

They can’t all be Jimmy Swaggart.

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/hatemail4_pic_swaggart.jpg

“I have sinned” :bawling:

[Darth Stujitzu]

O.K., I seem to be very opinionated tonight, especially after my rant on the Supersize me thread, so here goes.
I'm a very liberal person, live and let live, I've been brought up without any form of religion, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but I find when it comes to religion people become very preachy and self-rightousness.
My main problem with religion, is that everyone believes their faith to be better than the rest. Why was their only one God? I like to think that there was more than one God and his/her appearance changed to suit their surroundings.
Also, IMO the Catholic church is too set in its ways, with the spread of AIDS ideally the message that protection is a sin has to be addressed. Abortion too is an issue that surely comes down to individual circumstances, and the cherry on top is that if you're a sinner you won't get into heaven(where's the forgiveness in that?) but if you're catholic you can sin as long as you confess and are absolved.
I tend to find religion hypercritical at times, and as much as I try to keep an open mind, I don't feel that religion will ever play a part in my life.
As for tv evangelists, there all frauds and conmen, IMO they shouldn't be allowed on tv.
Religion has also played a large part in conflict between nations in history, again taking a life can't be redeemable if you did it for religious purposes or with the backing of your religion.
Maybe my mind isn't as open as I like to think, I'm more spiritual, in that I believe this is not the be all and end all, but I've yet to be convinced about any religion.

[r3port3r66]

Brian you are so right--really never thought of it like that before.

On the other hand, I can't think of a time when religon and politics have been more intertwined. It seems--and this is purely my observation--that the term "family values" has become the most repeated phrase in any political debate lately. Nothing wrong with the term itself or the idea behind it, but when it gets used by the religious leaders who are close to those making the laws it concerns me. If a powerful Christian leader suggests to his mass that some people are abominatons of God because of whatever reason, the masses will believe him, but they will never question the morals of the preacher. Again I may be wrong, but I think that rich, Christian bigwigs are the biggest influence on over half of a mostly poor or working class America.

[SpoOkY]

My main problem with religion, is that everyone believes their faith to be better than the rest. Why was their only one God? I like to think that there was more than one God and his/her appearance changed to suit their surroundings.

Dude they don't believe there religion is 'better' they believe their religion is real and true and correct. So if their religion says there is one god.....well there is one god for them.


Also, IMO the Catholic church is too set in its ways, with the spread of AIDS ideally the message that protection is a sin has to be addressed. Abortion too is an issue that surely comes down to individual circumstances, and the cherry on top is that if you're a sinner you won't get into heaven(where's the forgiveness in that?) but if you're catholic you can sin as long as you confess and are absolved..

Part of the catholic message is 'sex after marriage', so the protection issue is less of a threat to the spreading of aids (1 partner). Perhaps not to the wider population who are having rampant sex (or so I'm told =p) but to say all catholics should wear protection goes against their principles of sex and the natural order of things. Dude about the 'cherry' part because that's not true, nobody is sinless really so shouldn't everyone miss out?? Well no because you're forgetting the J man......it's Jesus who allows sins to be forgiven. (remember the sacrifices in the olden times; goats and that. That's why they stopped doing it.)

As for tv evangelists, there all frauds and conmen, IMO they shouldn't be allowed on tv.

Probably right in most cases :). We never know where the money is going do we, not that we can assume it's going into their pocket but wouldn't they proclaim all the good work they're doing. Show evidence of what the people's money is going towards?? mmm?? cool thread btw.

[Darth Stujitzu]

O.K., sex after marriage in an ideal world, but IMO the Catholic church is not moving with the times. Most of what has been practised and preeched is centuries old, and was maybe more topical of those times, I know In Scotland the number of church goers is less than 5%, to me this reflects that the various churches and religions have lost touch with the population.
I think it would make more sense to promote safe sex outside of wedlock, lets be honest, a lot of these values are out of date with modern society.
In order to survive and flourish you have to be adaptable and less rigid.
More people are swayed by musicians, film stars and sports stars these days, society has less and less regulations and as such people don't want to be continually repremanded for copying these icons or doing their own thing.

[r3port3r66]

I love reading all of your responses; thanks for being honest.


Spooky, really good post. And I can see your point. But please expound on this statement of yours. Sorry, your statement is pretty straightforward, but I can't seem to get your point ( perhaps it was my last glass of wine that has rendered me stupid ;) )

We never know where the money is going do we, not that we can assume it's going into their pocket but wouldn't they proclaim all the good work they're doing.

[IDigCereal]

There was a TV doc on HBO on televangelists and how they manipulate people that was very fascinating and moving, but I can't recall its title. I believe it was in the America Undercover series and had miracle in the title. Did anyone else catch it? I think, to paraphrase a quote from Annie Hall, that televangelists are a notch below child molester. :D

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Don't think for an instant that the Catholic church isn't hugely wealthy, please. I'm not taking a swipe at them, but I I have been to an ordination and seen the gold-plated props they parade around, and the robes and lace and all... And if room and board were paid for, I could live on a priest's salary just fine. I know this because one of my best friends is a Catholic priest.

That said, you have a good point about Jesus being poor. I don't think though, that Jesus made any statements about everyone who believed in him and his work needing to drop everything and spend their lives spreading The Word. Just because someone has dedicated their life to spreading the word doesn't mean they shouldn't have any corporal needs, does it? I agree that there are excesses, and that those excesses raise questions, but that isn't the norm among people who devote their lives to religious works. For every Jimmy Swaggart, there are thousands of people whose names we'll never know, out getting malaria while trying to get a hospital built in a village.

[Darth Stujitzu]

There was a TV doc on HBO on televangelists and how they manipulate people that was very fascinating and moving, but I can't recall its title. I believe it was in the America Undercover series and had miracle in the title. Did anyone else catch it? I think, to paraphrase a quote from Annie Hall, that televangelists are a notch below child molester. :D


Does this mean Wacko Jacko will make his come-back as a tv evangelist? Of course not he's innocent after all. :skeptical:

[LordSlaytan]

Don't think for an instant that the Catholic church isn't hugely wealthy, please.I don't think anybody thinks that, but the masses who work for God through the Catholic church are not wealthy. Personally, I meant the Christian churches are more able to create wealth for the 'little' man.

[r3port3r66]

Sammy, I know exactly what you're saying! And you're right, the Catholic church does have a sordid past concerning wealth. But my main focus here is how the people of America are influenced by religious leaders esp. Christian Evangelists. It seems that said evagelists have a very powerful hold on the American people and can influence them easily all on the power of how they percieve The Bible and how they convey that interpretation to their flock. And this quote:

but that isn't the norm among people who devote their lives to religious works.

No, it's not, but sadly the people you describe often get disregarded, because their boss is more interested in making money to buy himself a new mansion, than travelling to a poverty stricken country to help the needy (IMO).

[Darth Stujitzu]

Sammy, I know exactly what you're saying! And you're right, the Catholic church does have a sordid past concerning wealth. But my main focus here is how the people of America are influenced by religious leaders esp. Christian Evangelists. It seems that said evagelists have a very powerful hold on the American people and can influence them easily all on the power of how they percieve The Bible and how they convey that interpretation to their flock. And this quote:



No, it's not, but sadly the people you describe often get disregarded, because their boss is more interested in making money to buy himself a new mansion, than travelling to a poverty stricken country to help the needy (IMO).

You hit the nail on the head. TV evangelists make you believe you're giving money to the needy through them without having to do the dirty work. Its easier to give through someone else than actually go to these places and help or give directly. Nobody likes to see poverty too close to home.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Sammy, I know exactly what you're saying! And you're right, the Catholic church does have a sordid past concerning wealth. But my main focus here is how the people of America are influenced by religious leaders esp. Christian Evangelists. It seems that said evagelists have a very powerful hold on the American people and can influence them easily all on the power of how they percieve The Bible and how they convey that interpretation to their flock. And this quote:



No, it's not, but sadly the people you describe often get disregarded, because their boss is more interested in making money to buy himself a new mansion, than travelling to a poverty stricken country to help the needy (IMO).
Ok. Well I'd have to say this then, to keep the picture in focus: the number of people willing to sit in their stratoloungers and do nothing to help the poor except write a check for $10 outnumber those who are putting their faces and reputations out there to collect the donations. Yes, tv evangelists make bank like there's no tomorrow. But if you want to talk about why, the answer lies as much in the consumerism of the public as it does the salesmen of righteousness who collect the contributions.

[SpoOkY]

I love reading all of your responses; thanks for being honest.


Spooky, really good post. And I can see your point. But please expound on this statement of yours. Sorry, your statement is pretty straightforward, but I can't seem to get your point ( perhaps it was my last glass of wine that has rendered me stupid ;) )

Yeah my last point wasn't very clear.....what I meant was the reason why a lot of people are concerned about where the money is going is that they can never see enough evidence of the help their money is providing. Most of the people who hear the message and give, wouldn't follow up to see how their donation has helped because there is no way for them to (plus lazy =p). The presenters don't seem to show enough about where the money is going, rather they move onto a new reason to give......just raises too many questions for my liking. (making more sense yet??)

[sunfrog]

Too many words, I only made it halfway.
Here's why they have so much money. Because they're on tv asking for donations. Millions of people watch and a lot of them send money. The tv guy uses the money to make better tv programs and build churches to get more converts. They also buy radio stations and small tv stations, etc.. all to get more popular. The more popular they get the more money comes in. A lot of the money goes to getting more popular and some of it goes to third world countries and poor people like that. To feed them and teach them agriculture etc.. But most of the money goes to make more tv shows because it's expensive and a big bag of rice is only like $9.

After all that there's money left over so the tv guy keeps a taste for himself. The logic is: I'm on tv and actors make alot of money so I should get paid the same. Plus, I'm the CEO of a large corporation and they get paid a lot so I should get a nice paycheck too. It's only fair. Being holy and all they should give 99% to the church and only keep what they need to live on, meagerly, except it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

[darkhorse]

well that's the difference between protestant/other denominations and chatolics...i'm a chatolic, and chatolic priests don't own mantions or airplanes ( in fact they don't own anything, they live in houses owned by the church as an organisation)...mostly they're humble, granted they're not poor, just normal...no exesses....and i completly agree with you..one of the most importaint messages of Jesus was the lesson of humbleness....
Oh, please... are you aware of how much money and property the Catholic church has? The Vatican City is one of the wealthiest nations in the world in terms of material possessions. The artwork in the Vatican itself is probably worth billions.

They can’t all be Jimmy Swaggart.

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/hatemail4_pic_swaggart.jpg

“I have sinned” :bawling:
Lol!
That said, I was thinking the other day bout Jesus Christ and why he wasn't a wealthy man. By wealthy I mean he didn't have an abundance of gold, or silver. He didn't own many dwellings or livestock. The images I have of Jesus are that he was poor, walked around in a linen robe and preached humbleness (I'm no theologian).
True, but you have to keep in mind that Jesus could also turn water into wine, feed a multitude with a few fish and loaves of bread, walk on water and raise the dead to boot! If I had those kinds of powers and abilities, I wouldn't worry too much about material possessions either, quite frankly. As for the rest of us, leave us alone with our private jets and BMWs, okay? lol!

[allthatglitters]

Now, I haven't had time to read through the other posts in this thread, but I only have a few moments to spare.

There is a pretty significant difference between the way the Catholic and Protestant churches are run. Obviously there are some very corrupt people out there. There are several "Christians" on the air presently that as far as protestant/calvinism doctrine goes are way off base.

I've been a pastors daughter my whole entire life basically. My father's father was a Presbytarian minister (a bit too fire and brimstone for my liking). All churches, to be legal with the IRS (as far as I know), must file as non-profit organizations. Which is why 99% of Protestant pastors in the world are middle or lower class. This is why. The money a church recieves comes from tithes and offerings. The concept behind tithing is that God has given and blessed us with everything and has allowed us to have money and food and so on. He entrusts us with earthly posessions to be stewards and use them for his purposes. This includes everything, our money, time, energy and talents. In fact, during the time of Jesus, money was called talents. Since God has blessed us with much, we tithe 10% of our income to the church so it can go back to God and be used in full-on ministry. This is where a pastors salary comes in. Churches don't sell anything. The money we get is from donations and tithes. My fathers salary is based on how much people give. So is the rest of the staff. This is usually a very very small amount. Because perhaps 30% of that money goes to paying God's workers (so they can clothe and feed their families while being in ministry), but about 70% of the rest goes back into the church. This can be through anything. Usually each department has a budget. Churches are expensive to run. Plain and simple.

Unforunately, sometimes there are corrupt people who falll off the path and get very greedy. However, a good example of probably the RICHEST and most famous evangalist is Billy Graham, who hasn't become corrupt. Billy Graham Ministries is continuing to grow through the money they recieve. All books, tours and such go to funding more tours and printing and sending books to other countries. They also built this great conference center in Virginia that's absolutely magnificent and that is used by dozens of different Christian Organizations around the country for special events at a discounted price.

But when it all comes down to it, most pastors are pretty poor or middle class. The middle-class pastors usually have a second job, but it is hard to be a pastor and have a second job.

[LordSlaytan]

But when it all comes down to it, most pastors are pretty poor or middle class. The middle-class pastors usually have a second job, but it is hard to be a pastor and have a second job.I was raised in an evangelical environment and agree with this statement completely. Most ministers/pastors are not rolling in dough. Mainly because most ministers/pastors work for smaller churches that don’t make any serious bank. But then there are the HUGE church ‘syndicates’ that rake in millions of dollars…it seems that those environments are the ones that attract the bad guys. I dunno…I’ve witnessed first hand some pretty corrupt stuff going on in these places (my brother used to be a pastor). I’ve also witnessed the worst kinds of hypocritical people in these places. I don’t care for religious conglomerates for the most part. I respect Billy Graham for what he’s done with his life and what he’s done for needy people across the globe, but I agree with little of what he has to say and am not a fan of what missionaries number one purpose is…to convert. Sorry.

[sunfrog]

The more people you convert the less bad people there are. Unless you convert them from other religions then your just moving numbers around. If you only have a few converts, like 5, what good can you do? The bigger you are, the more money you have, the more good you can do. If you preach on a street corner you can reach a couple hundred people. If you preach on tv you can reach millions. Tv shows cost a lot of money to make. Air time is expensive.

[LordSlaytan]

I meant going into areas of the world that have their own culture, religion, etc., and telling them they're wrong. I'm living in the past, actually. Where on Earth have the Christians not been to already in order to spread their 'word'?

[sunfrog]

Washington D.C. :devil:
It's full of republicans you know.

[LordSlaytan]

That makes about as much sense as...ah, forget it. :laugh:

[darkhorse]

It all depends. On the one hand, you have the mainstream religious establishment that is tremendously wealthy and influential. And that is an understatement. And this applies to Catholic and Protestant ministries. Then you have the smaller denominations that tend to be more evangelical and less well off as a result. Finally, you have the fruitcakes--the televangelists who are more like corporate CEOs in their attitude and lifestyle than like Christian ministers. Corruption exists in various parts of the church--though it's not for me to say where. I am, frankly, a non-denominational Christian who was baptized in the Episcopal church. I see the Bible as the final authority concerning my faith and try to live my life according to its precepts. But I also try to keep a sense of humor in life! It's not a good idea to get too serious about things, IMO!