Gender 101

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?


Edit to add: I'm not asking what's in your pants or where you put it.
This has been clarified downthread, but it doesn't seem like people are reading all of it: "Gender" (in this thread, at least) is referring to the social norms for the sexes. "Boys play with trucks and not dolls." "Girls should be soft-spoken and family-oriented." That sort of thing.

[MovieMaker5087]

Just by looking down reassures me of who I am and what I am. :yup:

And just like Paul Harvey says...

"And now you know... the rest of the story."

[OG-]

Just by looking down reassures me of who I am and what I am. :yup:

There is a big difference between sex (what's down there) and gender. Sex is biologically defined whereas gender is culturally defined.

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
Parents, peers, television.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
Playing hockey :D Kidding. No "requirements" at least not in the sense that I've ever had a parent or peer tell me that I couldn't do something I was doing because it was something only a girl would do.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
With the explicit intention of binding myself with another gender? Neg. For humor? Sure.

[Holden Pike]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?

Jesus.


What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?

Pecker.


Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

I once crossed a State line while driving a stolen Abrams M1 tank, all to get this broad to an early morning shoe sale at Filene's Basement. Does this count?

[OG-]

I once crossed a State line while driving a stolen Abrams M1 tank, all to get this broad to an early morning shoe sale at Filene's Basement. Does this count?

You know it doesn't!!

[SamsoniteDelilah]

There is a big difference between sex (what's down there) and gender. Sex is biologically defined whereas gender is culturally defined.
'Zactley!

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
My parents... mom taught me that women cook and men don't have to (an idea I completely rejected) That only women wear dresses and makeup... that girls sew and clean and all that.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
All those Suzi Homemaker skills... dating boys... boobs and heels... artsy/craftsy stuff... Wearing skirts and makeup and curling your hair.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
I wore mens clothes when I was 18-20, not exclusively but often. I refused to learn to cook until I had to to feed myself, because my mom made such a distinction between expecting help in the kitchen from me and my sister and NEVER asking for it from my brother. At holidays, I would watch football (having NO idea what was going on) with my uncles and male cousins, and never step foot in the kitchen.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?

Jesus.
So you wear a lot of white wrap-around miniskirts?


What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?

Pecker.


Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

I once crossed a State line while driving a stolen Abrams M1 tank, all to get this broad to an early morning shoe sale at Filene's Basement. Does this count?
It counts for something...

Do you feel like gender stereotypes have been transparent to you your entire life, or did you have an epiphany at some point?

[susan]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?

actually, no one had to teach me...i was profoundly aware of the difference


What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?

are there any????


Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

to be honest, i've always preferred pants over dresses, they are warmer in winter and infinitely more comfortable

[Holden Pike]

Do you feel like gender stereotypes have been transparent to you your entire life, or did you have an epiphany at some point?

Yes.http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/edoom/heh_heh.gif

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?

actually, no one had to teach me...i was profoundly aware of the difference
What were the differences, as you understood them. (I realise most of us move away from the norming standards as we grow up, but I'm curious what people were taught when they were young.)


What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?

are there any????Sure. Girls aren't the boss. Girls should be sweet and pretty and boys should be smart and know how to fix a car. That sort of thing.


Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

to be honest, i've always preferred pants over dresses, they are warmer in winter and infinitely more comfortableNow we're talking. :) You gender-bender, you. Did it make you feel uncomfortable that you weren't dressed "like a girl"?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Yes.http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/edoom/heh_heh.gif
heh!!
We're just talking here.... Nobody's making a hit list.
I just get curious about these things.

[susan]

1) What were the differences, as you understood them. (I realise most of us move away from the norming standards as we grow up, but I'm curious what people were taught when they were young.)

well, if you mean toys, i was never interested in dolls or real 'girlie' type things until i was MUCH older ...as a kid i played with plastic cowboys and indians, erector sets, science and lab kits (when i was 6 my father bought me one of those kits once and i know the salesguy commented on what a nice boy he had, unfortunately, i don't remember my father's answer) i am also a voracious reader.....maybe that's where i learned the differences...

and i am more interested in sports than my husband is..i love baseball and i watch football...go figure


2) Sure. Girls aren't the boss. Girls should be sweet and pretty and boys should be smart and know how to fix a car. That sort of thing.

i was never taught that...i heard about those things....but i never believed it....the only thing that i remember my friends and i talking about was how smart women had to play dumb to get a guy...other than that...oh and girls who wear glasses never get passes...something like that anyway...


3) Now we're talking. :) You gender-bender, you. Did it make you feel uncomfortable that you weren't dressed "like a girl"?

never....

[SamsoniteDelilah]

... i was never interested in dolls or real 'girlie' type things until i was MUCH older ...as a kid i played with plastic cowboys and indians, erector sets, science and lab kits (when i was 6 my father bought me one of those kits once and i know the salesguy commented on what a nice boy he had, unfortunately, i don't remember my father's answer) i am also a voracious reader.....maybe that's where i learned the differences...

That probably influenced me, as well. I read a lot as a kid. I also wasn't into babydolls and I loved climbing trees and bike riding... I didn't turn into a 'girl' til I started school.


and i am more interested in sports than my husband is..i love baseball and i watch football...go figure
I don't understand what is going on, or I might. I watch basketball if the Lakers are in the playoffs, because my high school kicked butt at that sport so I know some of the rules. Otherwise, I'm lost.


...the only thing that i remember my friends and i talking about was how smart women had to play dumb to get a guy...other than that...oh and girls who wear glasses never get passes...something like that anyway...AURGH!! I heard those and hated them both. :p
I wish I had bought into the other crap less.

[allthatglitters]

Maybe because I am younger and the social dynamics have changed a little bit, but I really don't see that many stereotypes. The generation of girls who were told from the start that they could be anything they wanted has grown up and had children of their own. My parents both grew up in homes where all the kids were expected to help with the dishes, vacum and do yard work. Both my parents work and even though my mom is a "stay at home" mom, she still has her nurses liscense and is pursuing another career. All my friends moms work, and not just as secretaries, but a large precentage are business owners, doctors, lawyers and store managers.

As a little girl I used to like wearing dresses, but mostly because I was obsessed with dancing around, and dancing looks so much prettier in a skirt. I will often wear a skirt one day and the next day wear sweatpants to school. I've never felt pressured to grow up and raise children. My parents man goal is to be supportive and my father still holds high hopes that I will at least get into Stanford (not gonna happen). I am not into sports, but not because I don't feel like I am allowed to do them, I just don't enjoy them. I obviously know I am a girl and I do belive that there are differences as far as thinking goes, but I've never been under the impression that somethings are restricted to boys and other things are restricted to girls. But then again, I am only 16.

[Yoda]

I'll probably be the only one to take this stance, but eh, what else is new?

There is a big difference between sex (what's down there) and gender. Sex is biologically defined whereas gender is culturally defined.I know this meme is all the rage in textbooks, but I'm not buying it. Gender, admittedly, is not as black-and-white as some would have you believe, but neither are its origins.

I'm the oldest of seven children. I'm old enough to remember most of them growing up (some of them still are). No one had to tell my younger brothers to start smashing toy cars together, and no one had to tell some of my sisters to sneak into my mom's makeup. They largely did it themselves, without prompting. Whatever social pressures there are only magnify the inherent differences that are already there.

Biologically, the idea that traits thought of as masculine or feminine is purely the result of social conditioning is absurd. Andrew Sullivan has a tremendously insightful essay on testosterone called The He Hormone (http://www.andrewsullivan.com/culture.php?artnum=20000402). It's worth your time. In summary, though, it demonstrates that various "male" attributes (both positive and negative) often correspond to testosterone levels, regardless of sex. Sullivan, it should be noted, is openly homosexual.

This is not an easy thing to talk about (or accept), of course, if only because any inherent differences between groups of people, however obvious and demonstrable, inevitably give the occasional bigot another opportunity to rationalize. I don't think ignoring reality is the way to deal with that, though, and the reality seems to come down firmly on the side of their being some inherent difference between the sexes. Chalking it all up to socialization is a vast oversimplification.

[chicagofrog]

I'll
Biologically, the idea that traits thought of as masculine or feminine is purely the result of social conditioning is absurd.

very good point. seems so obvious i don't get it that some still doubt truths like that. must be the New Age thing...

me, i hated sport at school, and would rather hang around with the girls and talk poetry and art and music. boys develop more slowly, that is, up there, brains.
(maybe they keep developping longer after that though...;) )
now, girls are afraid :eek: of me whenever i tell 'em about collecting blank weapons and having practiced and still liking Free Fight. or not denying a certain violence which is an integral part of our culture, being, mentality, history, etc. an energy, is all. which one chooses to use positively or negatively. see yinyang for a better understanding...
so, yep, tis not easy to not be rejected for what you like, are interested in... by both genders, depending on your age...

[OG-]

I'm the oldest of seven children. I'm old enough to remember most of them growing up (some of them still are). No one had to tell my younger brothers to start smashing toy cars together, and no one had to tell some of my sisters to sneak into my mom's makeup.

Are any of them blind? If not, there is your answer.

Did anyone ever say, "Chris, this is a hat. You wear hats only on your head, like this!" I highly doubt it. But you still wear hats on your head, no? People have eyes. Monkey see, monkey do.

Biologically differences allow for classification while what you (or others) percieve your gender to be allows for allignment. Hell, in some cultures (largely in the East) there are more than two genders and that's not because of people with multiple things going on down under.

I know this meme is all the rage in textbooks, but I'm not buying it. Gender, admittedly, is not as black-and-white as some would have you believe, but neither are its origins.

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. It would seem you're saying you don't agree that gender is culturally defined, but then you say "neither are its origins"...

Anyways, lets just assume that you are arguing that gender is culturally defined. There isn't an argument there. Gender is culturally defined - that's the deffinition of it. Sex is biologically defined. I suppose you can argue how much of it is up to society and how much of it is up to biology, but at the end of the day culture has the last word.

The composition is crucial to aiding the definition, but until someone says this equals that sex is twidling it's thumbs.

No one gives you a lecture on what your gender is, but your eyes and ears tell you what to do. The unsaid is just as loud as the spoken.

[chicagofrog]

in some cultures (largely in the East) there are more than two genders

examples?

I suppose you can argue how much of it is up to society and how much of it is up to biology, but at the end of the day culture has the last word.

gratuitous statement.
or do you call "biology" "culture"?
if not,
how much in (what you call) "culture", is based on biology?

[Yoda]

Are any of them blind? If not, there is your answer.

Did anyone ever say, "Chris, this is a hat. You wear hats only on your head, like this!" I highly doubt it. But you still wear hats on your head, no? People have eyes. Monkey see, monkey do.

Biologically differences allow for classification while what you (or others) percieve your gender to be allows for allignment. Hell, in some cultures (largely in the East) there are more than two genders and that's not because of people with multiple things going on down under."Monkey see, monkey do"? If it were that simple...if socialization were such an overwhelming force that we are helpless to resist it, then technically we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

And what causes, say, a young boy to identify with and imitate his father rather than his mother, anyway? "Monkey see, monkey do" doesn't explain why a child would emulate one more than the other.

Notice also that chalking everything up to socialization is (conveniently, I'd argue) a largely unassailable position, in part because there is not currently any way to directly observe the mental processes you're takling about.


I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. It would seem you're saying you don't agree that gender is culturally defined, but then you say "neither are its origins"...I'm arguing that while no one is purely "masculine" or "feminine," that leanings are apparent and largely overlap with sex. That gender is not a switch, as sex generally is, but that it's not arbitrary, either.


Anyways, lets just assume that you are arguing that gender is culturally defined. There isn't an argument there. Gender is culturally defined - that's the deffinition of it. Sex is biologically defined.The argument is not about whether gender is culturally defined (as you point out, it is by definition), but about why it defines it the way it does. The phrase "culturally defined" is loaded; it implies that the definitions are largely arbitrary. A quick skimming of the comments in this thread demonstrates that. The underlying assumption is that our notions about what is "normal" behavior for men and women are not based in any reality, and could just as well have been completely different. It's that idea that I'm taking issue with.


I suppose you can argue how much of it is up to society and how much of it is up to biology, but at the end of the day culture has the last word.Says who? I don't see much evidence for the idea. If anything, my own experiences indicate that inherent leanings tend to take precedence over artificial boundries and limitations. This thread also contains multiple examples of people breaking out of these preconceived gender roles, despite their allegedly overwhelming nature.

Here's my argument, in a nutshell: nobody simply decided what boys and girls "ought" to be like. These expectations evolved by observing inherent tendencies. There are always exceptions, but they do not invalidate those leanings, anymore than a highly informed 17 year old invalidates the need for a minimum voting age.

From what I understand about the biological side of things, there's little to no dispusting that sex has a great deal of effect on our behavior. Again, I'd strongly recommend Sullivan's essay on testosterone. I do not expect anyone to read it, and I generally dislike it when people try to assign reading in the course of a discussion, but it makes the case better (and with more specific facts) than I ever could. It's pretty interesting, to boot.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I'm suprised that there is arguement over this too, but it's because it seems so readily apparent that cultures have norming standards for gender-roles and gender-related behaviour. I'm suprised (Yoda, Chicago, Holden) that this is news to you guys.

Glitter, this I find not so suprising. I've seen a huge difference between my older friends and the ones who are in school now in attitides about gender and sexuality. It makes me smile to see the way minds have broadened in the last 40 years.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

[QUOTE=Yoda... This thread also contains multiple examples of people breaking out of these preconceived gender roles, despite their allegedly overwhelming nature...[/QUOTE]
Yes, and there was something for them to "break out of". That's what I was asking about. This debate is all well and good and please don't let me get in the way of it... BUT I hope that it won't shut down examination of what people have experienced as expected gender-related behaviour, or who their gender role-models were.

I agree with you, Yoda, that a person's individual proclivities will eventually win out. It's what they're winning out over that this thread is looking into. You didn't answer my questions.

[Yoda]

Yes, and there was something for them to "break out of". That's what I was asking about. This debate is all well and good and please don't let me get in the way of it... BUT I hope that it won't shut down examination of what people have experienced as expected gender-related behaviour, or who their gender role-models were.Like you said, all well and good, but I don't think you're exactly sitting on the sidelines here, what with the less-than-subtle comment about the "broadening" of minds. If you've got an argument, I'd love to hear it, because I consider the acknowledgement of persistent biological realities to be a prerequisite of a "broad" mind.

And I'll not touch the obvious play on words involving "broad" here. That just wouldn't be gentlemanly.


You didn't answer my questions.Because I don't accept the premise they are based on. But if you insist...

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
Simply put, nobody. I am naturally confrontational and somewhat aggressive. To what degree these (and other character traits typically thought of as masculine) were encouraged or nurtured, I can't say for sure, but I can't recall any instances where I was taught to be more masculine for its own sake.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
I don't remember requirements beind laid out for me. If there was any of the socialization Peter is referring to, it was unspoken.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
I grew shoulder-length hair twice in my life. I had it for a year or two, I think.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Like you said, all well and good, but I don't think you're exactly sitting on the sidelines here, what with the less-than-subtle comment about the "broadening" of minds. If you've got an argument, I'd love to hear it, because I consider the acknowledgement of persistent biological realities to be a prerequisite of a "broad" mind.

And I'll not touch the obvious play on words involving "broad" here. That just wouldn't be gentlemanly.
Dude, I haven't even had my coffee yet. I'm not even beginning to try and jab at you. People's minds have broadened over the last 40 years. In the 1950's, there were very rigidly-defined social norms for gender. You've seen Leave it to Beaver. If you're going to take my acknowledgement of the sexual revolution as a personal dig at you, this conversation is going to get really silly, really fast.


Because I don't accept the premise they are based on. But if you insist...

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
Simply put, nobody. I am naturally confrontational and somewhat aggressive. To what degree these (and other character traits typically thought of as masculine) were encouraged or nurtured, I can't say for sure, but I can't recall any instances where I was taught to be more masculine for its own sake.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
I don't remember requirements beind laid out for me. If there was any of the socialization Peter is referring to, it was unspoken.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
I grew shoulder-length hair twice in my life. I had it for a year or two, I think.
OK. Apparently it's not something you want to think about. That's cool.

[Yoda]

Dude, I haven't even had my coffee yet. I'm not even beginning to try and jab at you. People's minds have broadened over the last 40 years. In the 1950's, there were very rigidly-defined social norms for gender. You've seen Leave it to Beaver. If you're going to take my acknowledgement of the sexual revolution as a personal dig at you, this conversation is going to get really silly, really fast.I don't see it as a personal dig at all, but rather a way of taking sides without really delving into the argument. Kind of like a passing "Bush disgusts me" in the midst of an otherwise thorough debate on the matter. You can't be surprised when endorsement sans elaboration gets called on.


OK. Apparently it's not something you want to think about. That's cool.Zuh? Those were my answers. They're completely honest and reflect exactly what I remember (or don't remember) about growing up. If I didn't want to think about it, I wouldn't be arguing, nor would I have answered them.

[chicagofrog]

it seems so readily apparent that cultures have norming standards for gender-roles and gender-related behaviour. I'm suprised (Yoda, Chicago, Holden) that this is news to you guys.

nope, nothing new there. i'm surprised it may not be so obvious over there that someone who's some intelligence evidently spent some time reflecting on all this.
1) we don't have to come to the same conclusion
2) that one says: hei! don't forget biology!, does NOT mean education doesn't play any role at all
- very often, i determine over and over, again and again, quite the contrary, it's the persons who postulate something like gender doesn't naturally exist, that are completely closed to any reflexion leading to a sorta compromising way of thinking. or a gray one (as opposed to black and white), if you prefer me to put it that way, dear C. :rolleyes:

i don't deny education's importance and role in the matter, "cultural" aspects like OG said above.
i do deny though that genetics/biology don't exist, don't have a point, and that given the same education, male and female would be the same.
see the reference to testosterone by Yoda, and i may add, its (female) opposite hormone. denying all these facts is dumb, just like it's been researched, and proven, that the male and female brains are different, that the left eye in a woman is not linked to the same part of the brain as in a man... etc etc etc...
i've been reading books and scientific articles on the subject for years.
so, nope, nothing new there.

and it's always females that come up with such ideas.
sorry, i won't say "always" or they'll accuse me of generalization. :eek: ;)
so, am i supposed to say, what, like, 99,8%?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I don't see it as a personal dig at all, but rather a way of taking sides without really delving into the argument. Kind of like a passing "Bush disgusts me" in the midst of an otherwise thorough debate on the matter. You can't be surprised when endorsement sans elaboration gets called on.
I'm not interested in arguing in this debate. You're talking about something completely different than what I brought up. I didn't deny the existance or influence of biology. IT's just not the topic of my first post. You have announced that the suggestion that cultural influence also comes into play is "absurd" and I find that... well... ludicrous. I have pointed to your own words as proof that these things do exist.


Zuh? Those were my answers. They're completely honest and reflect exactly what I remember (or don't remember) about growing up. If I didn't want to think about it, I wouldn't be arguing, nor would I have answered them.
Well, I know your upbringing was different from mine, but i find it hard to believe that a mere 70 miles from where I grew up and not even a full generation later, you observed NO cultural norms for gender. I just don't buy it. Notice that I didn't ask in my first post if you felt that you had to subscribe to those norms or if you did at all. That's what the conversation has morphed into, and that's fine but please don't cite me as avoiding an arguement simply because I am not jumping into your new topic.

Would you have worn a pink dress at the age of 8? If not, why not?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

nope, nothing new there. i'm surprised it may not be so obvious over there that someone who's some intelligence evidently spent some time reflecting on all this.
1) we don't have to come to the same conclusion
2) that one says: hei! don't forget biology!, does NOT mean education doesn't play any role at all
- very often, i determine over and over, again and again, quite the contrary, it's the persons who postulate something like gender doesn't naturally exist, that are completely closed to any reflexion leading to a sorta compromising way of thinking. or a gray one (as opposed to black and white), if you prefer me to put it that way, dear C. :rolleyes:

i don't deny education's importance and role in the matter, "cultural" aspects like OG said above.
i do deny though that genetics/biology don't exist, don't have a point, and that given the same education, male and female would be the same.
see the reference to testosterone by Yoda, and i may add, its (female) opposite hormone that'd be estrogen, by the way. denying all these facts is dumb, just like it's been researched, and proven, that the male and female brains are different, that the left eye in a woman is not linked to the same part of the brain as in a man... etc etc etc...
i've been reading books and scientific articles on the subject for years.
so, nope, nothing new there.

Could you please point out where anyone in this thread has denied the existence or influence of biology? Thanks in advance.


and it's always females that come up with such ideas.
sorry, i won't say "always" or they'll accuse me of generalization. :eek: ;)
so, am i supposed to say, what, like, 99,8%?
Did he really say that? Did you really say that?

[chicagofrog]

Would you have worn a pink dress at the age of 8? If not, why not?

i'd have to!

:bawling:

http://www.froggifts.com/holidayfrogs/EasterPink.jpg

[chicagofrog]

that'd be estrogen, by the way.

forgive me for not having the word ready in my head at the moment, being a native speaker of English and all...
but i do like funny argUments ("arguements") like this one!
:) :p :kiss:

(and yes, he really did say that!! get him!! :eek: )

[Yoda]

I'm not interested in arguing in this debate. You're talking about something completely different than what I brought up. I didn't deny the existance or influence of biology. IT's just not the topic of my first post. You have announced that the suggestion that cultural influence also comes into play is "absurd" and I find that... well... ludicrous. I have pointed to your own words as proof that these things do exist.Er, what I actually said was this (emphasis added):

"Biologically, the idea that traits thought of as masculine or feminine is purely the result of social conditioning is absurd."

I qualified several statements in virtually every post of mine in this thread to make it abundantly clear that I was NOT speaking in extremes.


Well, I know your upbringing was different from mine, but i find it hard to believe that a mere 70 miles from where I grew up and not even a full generation later, you observed NO cultural norms for gender. I just don't buy it. Notice that I didn't ask in my first post if you felt that you had to subscribe to those norms or if you did at all. That's what the conversation has morphed into, and that's fine but please don't cite me as avoiding an arguement simply because I am not jumping into your new topic.My claim is that you WERE "jumping into" it with what was clearly an endorsement of one side over the other, but without elaboration. I'm not sure why there's so much confusion over this; when someone drops in and briefly chooses sides, I usually ask for elaboration. I don't think that's unreasonable, and I know it's not unexpected.


Would you have worn a pink dress at the age of 8? If not, why not?No, I probably would not have worn a dress. Why not? Well, I'd say for two reasons. The first is, indeed, cultural: it'd draw some odd looks. I might be thought ill of for it.

The second is pragmatic: I don't think I'd have looked good in a dress. Various types of clothing are made with certain body shapes/types in mind. Most men look ridiculous in dresses, and not just because they don't usually wear them. It's because they have hairy legs, no breasts, and differently-shaped hips than the people in mind when the dress was being created.

Also, colors have been known to invoke certain emotions or reactions, and pink is obviously no exception.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

forgive me for not having the word ready in my head at the moment, being a native speaker of English and all...
but i do like funny argUments ("arguements") like this one!
:) :p :kiss:

(and yes, he really did say that!! get him!! :eek: )
http://www.froglegs.com/images/froglegs.jpg

[SamsoniteDelilah]

..No, I probably would not have worn a dress. Why not? Well, I'd say for two reasons. The first is, indeed, cultural: it'd draw some odd looks. I might be thought ill of for it...
Exactly.
And my posts to you since have been nothing more than trying to leave the door open for anyone else who wants to comment on this phenomenon.

[Mose]

I haven't read through the entire thread yet... way to lazy/busy at the moment but wanted to chime in my two cents.

Mrs. Mose was a pscyh. major in college (along with her Mrs. Degree), thus has some whacked out ideas. One of her beliefs was always that society imposed on children what toys they should play with. Of course along comes Toefuzz and to her surprise the kid won't go near anything remotely feminine. If you give him a Barbie he finds a tank to run her over with. Give him a purse and he throws it down the stairs... It's all matchbox cars, guns, and blankie for him. All I can say is, that's my boy :)

[Garrett]

Would you have worn a pink dress at the age of 8? If not, why not?

Because pink makes me look fat.

http://www.red-colored.org/lazysod/smilies/grinning-smiley.gif

[7thson]

Actually I think my hairy legs look pretty decent in a kilt, and the big buckle tha holds it up also keeps my belly in place.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I haven't read through the entire thread yet... way to lazy/busy at the moment but wanted to chime in my two cents.

Mrs. Mose was a pscyh. major in college (along with her Mrs. Degree), thus has some whacked out ideas. One of her beliefs was always that society imposed on children what toys they should play with. Of course along comes Toefuzz and to her surprise the kid won't go near anything remotely feminine. If you give him a Barbie he finds a tank to run her over with. Give him a purse and he throws it down the stairs... It's all matchbox cars, guns, and blankie for him. All I can say is, that's my boy :)
heh... Your kid's a cutie, for sure.
Any chance you've mentioned to HIM that "that's your boy"? :)

[undercoverlover]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
me, i sorta made it up as i went along

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
a uterus

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
i was a total tomboy when i was younger if thats what you mean, but i dont go in for any lesbianism if thats what ur getting at

[OG-]

"Monkey see, monkey do"? If it were that simple...if socialization were such an overwhelming force that we are helpless to resist it, then technically we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Arrow in my face. You've just told a Sociology major that socialization isn't a powerful force. Now, and not as a personal attack (as I'm sure you know already), the above statement leads me to believe that your knowledge about sociology or socialization is sorely lacking.

But first, to the questions:

And what causes, say, a young boy to identify with and imitate his father rather than his mother, anyway? "Monkey see, monkey do" doesn't explain why a child would emulate one more than the other.

Is it that a boy makes the concious choice to imitate his father or is that the father molds himself onto the boy? The latter is a much more coherrent path. Children's brains are amazing things. Hell, there are ages at which children simply are incapable of making certain judgements; not a failure of their understanding of the world but their brains simply cannot make the analysis. Anyways that isn't really important, you're thinking of the individual while you should be focusing on the actual raising of the child; focus on the environment, namely the family. A father rears a child in his image. A father tells a child what to do with the body they have. Then once an alliance is formed a child starts paying more attention to his father. When daddy takes son to the bathroom when they're in a restaurant, this is why son watches daddy's mannerisms when using the potty. If more time is spent with one (father) over the other (mother) at a young age it certainly explains why a child would "emulate one more than the other".

Stastically, males raised solely in female environments will have many more female-related tendencies and vice-versa. It isn't so much about how much attention a child pays to those around him as it is the amount of attention paid to the child and WHO is paying it.

I'm arguing that while no one is purely "masculine" or "feminine," that leanings are apparent and largely overlap with sex. That gender is not a switch, as sex generally is, but that it's not arbitrary, either.

I've never said it is arbitary and skipping down to your comments about reading the essay; I agree entirely that sex alters behavior drastically. That's no secret. Testosterone has a HUGE effect on the behavior of a person, whether they be a guy or a girl. But while it does have an impact, it is not the definer. Biology can tell you what you're capable of, it can provide all the building blocks of your way of life, but society will step in and say whether it is normal or not. Gender norms are obvious in the American Society (I don't think I have to point them out, everyone knows what they are...hence the word norm) but they are not obvious because of the biology standing behind them, but because society maintains what these norms are. It's why a parent yanks a barbie doll away from a small boy, because it just isn't normal for a boy to play with a doll.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying the biology isn't important, but I think you are heavily, heavily underestimating the power of socialization.

The underlying assumption is that our notions about what is "normal" behavior for men and women are not based in any reality, and could just as well have been completely different. It's that idea that I'm taking issue with.

They could just as well have been completely different, but in our (western) society they've been this way for so long that it's almost impossible to imagine it being any different. And these norms probably did evolve out of the biology, because regardless of what a woman wants to say (and this isn't my normal, just-for-laughs jab at women) a man is inherently stronger than a woman. Thus it makes sense that a man would have a more powerful role. A man would take on the role that requires the most strength. These roles have carried throughout the world and are in almost every society. And yah, that is because of the biology; because a man's body is relatively the same, regardless of where they live in the world. But in OUR society, culture says whats what. This is because the differences that are inherent because of the biology are starting to decay away. Women are no longer naturally subservient to men in every role, it's no longer as horrible a thing for a man to behave as a woman (though it still isn't the norm). So as the biology gets watered down by society, society still stands strong in stating the deffinition of genders.


Says who? I don't see much evidence for the idea. If anything, my own experiences indicate that inherent leanings tend to take precedence over artificial boundries and limitations. This thread also contains multiple examples of people breaking out of these preconceived gender roles, despite their allegedly overwhelming nature.

I've said that culture defines what genders are, I've never said that culture enforces what gender is. People can break out of their preconcieved roles any time they want, culture isn't going to physically stop anyone. Culture will, however, provide a path of great resistance. Americans are becoming more accepting of gender norm deviation, but there are still TONS of people who believe that the norm SHOULD be enforced. This is why cross dressers and homosexuals have such a hard time coming out to their peers.

Here's my argument, in a nutshell: nobody simply decided what boys and girls "ought" to be like. These expectations evolved by observing inherent tendencies.

I couldn't agree more. I'm sure there has never been a point in history in which a group of people met up together and said, "we're founding a society a boy is this and a girl is this." They did evolve because of inherent tendencies, but they're maintained and defined by culture. This is why back in "ancient" Greece homosexuality was not a bad word. There wasn't a Greccian council that said "men can't have sexual relations with men". However, jump to today. If you think there aren't prominent social figures saying "men cannot and should not have sexual relations with men or behave like women" then you're sadly mistaken. But I doubt you are mistaken because you read transcripts of Bush's speeches and attend church (again, not my usual jovial jab, just a matter-o-fact).


i don't deny education's importance and role in the matter, "cultural" aspects like OG said above.
i do deny though that genetics/biology don't exist, don't have a point, and that given the same education, male and female would be the same.

I don't think they would be the same and have never said that they would. Though you never claimed I did, so that's kind of moot.

[Mose]

[/b]
heh... Your kid's a cutie, for sure.
Any chance you've mentioned to HIM that "that's your boy"? :)

Sure, but at 9 months of age he didn't have a clue what I was talking out... Remember, Mrs. Mose is into empirical evidence so the toys were presented in a very neutral manner... He's just all man baby!

I'm a man, I'm an ANCHORMAN :)

[Yoda]

Exactly.I had a feeling that one sentence would be seized on, at the expense of the half-dozen paragraphs before and after it.


And my posts to you since have been nothing more than trying to leave the door open for anyone else who wants to comment on this phenomenon.I disagree; they've consisted of that, yes, but also of an endorsement of one side (again, without elaboration, even after a request was made to that effect), and then a misattribution. So I honestly don't see how I'm changing the subject or dragging you into anything here.

[Yoda]

Arrow in my face. You've just told a Sociology major that socialization isn't a powerful force. Now, and not as a personal attack (as I'm sure you know already), the above statement leads me to believe that your knowledge about sociology or socialization is sorely lacking.I'm not saying that at all. We're speaking in relative terms, which means that socialization can be powerful without being as powerful as biology, which is precisely my stance.


Is it that a boy makes the concious choice to imitate his father or is that the father molds himself onto the boy? The latter is a much more coherrent path. Children's brains are amazing things. Hell, there are ages at which children simply are incapable of making certain judgements; not a failure of their understanding of the world but their brains simply cannot make the analysis. Anyways that isn't really important, you're thinking of the individual while you should be focusing on the actual raising of the child; focus on the environment, namely the family. A father rears a child in his image. A father tells a child what to do with the body they have. Then once an alliance is formed a child starts paying more attention to his father. When daddy takes son to the bathroom when they're in a restaurant, this is why son watches daddy's mannerisms when using the potty. If more time is spent with one (father) over the other (mother) at a young age it certainly explains why a child would "emulate one more than the other".

Stastically, males raised solely in female environments will have many more female-related tendencies and vice-versa. It isn't so much about how much attention a child pays to those around him as it is the amount of attention paid to the child and WHO is paying it.Makes sense to me; but do we see it playing out in reality? The stereotype (and in my experience, there's some truth to it) is that even an attentive father does not usually give his children as much attention as their mother. My personal experience (which is much broader than the dad-goes-to-work and mom-stays-at-home cliche) is certainly consistent with this.

I don't doubt that boys who grow up primarily among women tend to exhibit more feminine characteristics than boys who grow up around all men, or around more of a mix of the two; but isn't that just a change more masculine to less masculine, rather than from primarily masculine to primarily feminine? If so, doesn't this indicate that socialization must still operate within a person's biological parameters?


I've never said it is arbitary and skipping down to your comments about reading the essay; I agree entirely that sex alters behavior drastically. That's no secret. Testosterone has a HUGE effect on the behavior of a person, whether they be a guy or a girl. But while it does have an impact, it is not the definer. Biology can tell you what you're capable of, it can provide all the building blocks of your way of life, but society will step in and say whether it is normal or not. Gender norms are obvious in the American Society (I don't think I have to point them out, everyone knows what they are...hence the word norm) but they are not obvious because of the biology standing behind them, but because society maintains what these norms are. It's why a parent yanks a barbie doll away from a small boy, because it just isn't normal for a boy to play with a doll.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying the biology isn't important, but I think you are heavily, heavily underestimating the power of socialization.Okay then. Convince me. :) Do we have anything in the way of solid evidence that socialization is more powerful than biology in determining gender roles?


They could just as well have been completely different, but in our (western) society they've been this way for so long that it's almost impossible to imagine it being any different. And these norms probably did evolve out of the biology, because regardless of what a woman wants to say (and this isn't my normal, just-for-laughs jab at women) a man is inherently stronger than a woman. Thus it makes sense that a man would have a more powerful role. A man would take on the role that requires the most strength. These roles have carried throughout the world and are in almost every society. And yah, that is because of the biology; because a man's body is relatively the same, regardless of where they live in the world. But in OUR society, culture says whats what. This is because the differences that are inherent because of the biology are starting to decay away. Women are no longer naturally subservient to men in every role, it's no longer as horrible a thing for a man to behave as a woman (though it still isn't the norm). So as the biology gets watered down by society, society still stands strong in stating the deffinition of genders.It can't be both; gender roles cannot be based in biological realities, yet also completely malleable. How could it "just as well have been completely different" if you acknowledge that gender roles at least partially evolved around human nature? Don't those inherent differences place a limit on just how much of an effect socialization can have?


I've said that culture defines what genders are, I've never said that culture enforces what gender is. People can break out of their preconcieved roles any time they want, culture isn't going to physically stop anyone. Culture will, however, provide a path of great resistance. Americans are becoming more accepting of gender norm deviation, but there are still TONS of people who believe that the norm SHOULD be enforced. This is why cross dressers and homosexuals have such a hard time coming out to their peers.Sure, no argument there.


I couldn't agree more. I'm sure there has never been a point in history in which a group of people met up together and said, "we're founding a society a boy is this and a girl is this." They did evolve because of inherent tendencies, but they're maintained and defined by culture. This is why back in "ancient" Greece homosexuality was not a bad word. There wasn't a Greccian council that said "men can't have sexual relations with men". However, jump to today. If you think there aren't prominent social figures saying "men cannot and should not have sexual relations with men or behave like women" then you're sadly mistaken. But I doubt you are mistaken because you read transcripts of Busch's speeches and attend church (again, not my usual jovial jab, just a matter-o-fact).Yes, of course. People do say that.

Reading the above, I start to wonder if there's much disagreement here at all. My position is simply that, as you say, gender roles evolved around inherent tendencies and differences between the genders, and that socialization merely reinforces or amplifies these differences. If there is disagreement, it is merely in regards to the degree to which socialization does this.

Which leads me to a question similar to some of the ones I've asked earlier in this post: if you belive that the inherent differences came first, and that they are rooted in biology, how is it that you come to the conclusion that socialization can supercede them?

[Piddzilla]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

1. First, my family. Second, society.

2. A very complex question. It depends on the situation.

3. My sister and her friend did dress me up in girls clothes. I didn't think it was weird but all the adults acted funny so I learned pretty quickly to never do that again. When I was in Dublin I bought a small notebook that fitted my jeanspocket so I didn't have to bring a bag or something. My spanish friends thought that a small notebook was very feminine and a guy owning one was not really ok. They also wondered about my not very short hair. I actually think that some of them thought I was gay. Then I once bought Marlboro Lights (I was then a smoker) which also was a very big no-no for guys.

Interesting thread...

Oh, and just the fact that what's masculine in one culture is not masculine in another culture proves that gender is culturally determined.

[Yoda]

Oh, and just the fact that what's masculine in one culture is not masculine in another culture proves that gender is culturally determined.Not necessarily. It depends on whether or not the difference is fundamental.

If, somewhere, confrontation and aggression and risk were considered feminine, and passivity masculine, then you may be right. But if cultures only vary on the details of what is and is not masculine (for example, the degree to which a father participates in childrearing), then the difference is largely irrelevant.

[Kong: The Sequel]

I'm not interested in arguing in this debate. You're talking about something completely different than what I brought up. I didn't deny the existance or influence of biology. IT's just not the topic of my first post.

The problem here is that if you are only willing to discuss gender when it's in a vacuum then you can only arrive to (probably) one answer, and that answer is almost sure to be wrong.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

...3. My sister and her friend did dress me up in girls clothes. I didn't think it was weird but all the adults acted funny so I learned pretty quickly to never do that again. When I was in Dublin I bought a small notebook that fitted my jeanspocket so I didn't have to bring a bag or something. My spanish friends thought that a small notebook was very feminine and a guy owning one was not really ok. They also wondered about my not very short hair. I actually think that some of them thought I was gay. Then I once bought Marlboro Lights (I was then a smoker) which also was a very big no-no for guys.
That's all very interesting. Did you have big upsets over these things, or just make whatever changes without a lot of turmoil?

Interesting thread...
Yeah, lots of great observations here.

Oh, and just the fact that what's masculine in one culture is not masculine in another culture proves that gender is culturally determined.
Yeah, I was just thinking about Rabbit Proof Fence and how the mothers were teaching their daughters to hunt rabbits at the start, and that that's not something girls are traditionally taught in Western culture, but for indiginous australians, it's de rigeur.

As another example, in decades past, baby boys were dressed in gowns. Generations of men, Ernest Hemmigway, even my ex (b. 1950) wore what would today be considered "dresses" as babies, with their hair in ringlets. Then: ok. Now: freaky.

[Piddzilla]

Not necessarily. It depends on whether or not the difference is fundamental.

If, somewhere, confrontation and aggression and risk were considered feminine, and passivity masculine, then you may be right. But if cultures only vary on the details of what is and is not masculine (for example, the degree to which a father participates in childrearing), then the difference is largely irrelevant.

I think that if you put it all in a historical perspective you would find out that a woman of the 21st century is a lot more aggressive and risk-taking than a woman of the 19th century. This is connected to the various waves of feminist movements, women's liberation and the emancipation. An illustrative example: men commits more crime than women, but along with women demanding and gaining more equal rights and starting to work more than before, they have also started to commit more crimes. In other words, things that traditionally have been thought of as bilogically typical for men has more to do with how society is structured. When women are allowed to be more like men, they will act like men, and vice versa. Or when Emile Durkheim in his brilliant book Suicide found that men, and especially protestant men, were more likely to commit suicide than women; I'm sure you would find that today when women have become more incorporated in the world of modernity, they have also begun to take their lives more than before.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

The problem here is that if you are only willing to discuss gender when it's in a vacuum then you can only arrive to (probably) one answer, and that answer is almost sure to be wrong.
"In a vacum" generally means you're not looking at how other things relate to it. I asked specifically about things that do relate to it. So I don't see how this is "in a vacuum" unless you're on the biological thing. Again, I'm not suggesting that biology doesn't affect socialization. Hormones certainly do affect people's behaviour. So does culture.

So does culture.
Hence, this thread.
Because culture affects it, too.

And you can have variances in culture, but a biologically male guy in the US is bioligically pretty similar to a biologically male guy in South Africa.

But with culture, there are a lot more things to discuss. For example, in western culture, women, sociology students and guys named Pidzilla can think about what and who affected their behaviour regarding gender, where the male of the species will prefer to argue about biology and eschew self-examination as if their very genitals depended on it.

[Piddzilla]

That's all very interesting. Did you have big upsets over these things, or just make whatever changes without a lot of turmoil?

Well, when I was a kid I guess I mostly did what my folks told me to do and never thought much about it. That's the thing right there - when you're too young to reflect on why you do certain things, that's when you get the most shaped by norms and standards.

About the notebook and the Marlboro Lights... I think I probably did make some adjustments, or maybe not. About the hair.. no way.

Hmmm... I must add now that I think that why I didn't compromise with my hair style may have something to do with my conviction of that where I came from long hair on guys was ok, and where I came from was a more "modern" and less tradition-bound society (in my own oh so objective opinion). So, it has not so much to do with reaching over to the other gender perhaps....

[Garrett]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
The people that I respected when I was little. The people that I wanted to be.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
A large number of things.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
For quite a while when I was in elementary school my best friend was a girl. There was another time when I was 4 or 5 and I was at my grandmothers house with some other family members I dressed up in some old womens clothes. Not because I was confused about my gender, but because I knew I could get a laugh.

[Kong: The Sequel]

"In a vacum" generally means you're not looking at how other things relate to it. I asked specifically about things that do relate to it. So I don't see how this is "in a vacuum" unless you're on the biological thing. Again, I'm not suggesting that biology doesn't affect socialization. Hormones certainly do affect people's behaviour. So does culture.

Maybe Kong was misreading, but it sounded as if you wanted to explore gender roles but you didn't to discuss biological differences while doing so. Kong's problem with this is that they are often tied together.

So does culture.
Hence, this thread.
Because culture affects it, too.

No ****.

And you can have variances in culture, but a biologically male guy in the US is bioligically pretty similar to a biologically male guy in South Africa.

But with culture, there are a lot more things to discuss. For example, in western culture, women, sociology students and guys named Pidzilla can think about what and who affected their behaviour regarding gender, where the male of the species will prefer to argue about biology and eschew self-examination as if their very genitals depended on it.

So, I better toe your line and not ask questions?


Personally, I'm not willing to limit my understanding by limiting the subject. For instance, if I want to look at the reasons why men wear ties and why women wear lipstick, I damn well better look at biology or it will never make a lick of sense. If I ignore the biological differences of the sexes I may even come to the belief that society could have, just as easily, swapped those norms so that men wore lipstick and women wore ties!!!

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Maybe Kong was misreading, but it sounded as if you wanted to explore gender roles but you didn't to discuss biological differences while doing so. Kong's problem with this is that they are often tied together.
Often, but not always.
I had this notion that we might discuss those times when it doesn't.



No ****.
Really.


So, I better toe your line and not ask questions?
That's really unfair. Also, I asked questions that you didn't answer, but you make this strawman point to me? :nope:


Personally, I'm not willing to limit my understanding by limiting the subject. For instance, if I want to look at the reasons why men wear ties and why women wear lipstick, I damn well better look at biology or it will never make a lick of sense. If I ignore the biological differences of the sexes I may even come to the belief that society could have, just as easily, swapped those norms so that men wore lipstick and women wore ties!!!
But.. 200 years ago, they did.
Are you messing with me? You're messing with me, aren't you? :p

[Yoda]

But with culture, there are a lot more things to discuss. For example, in western culture, women, sociology students and guys named Pidzilla can think about what and who affected their behaviour regarding gender, where the male of the species will prefer to argue about biology and eschew self-examination as if their very genitals depended on it.Oh, pshaw. No one is eschewing (good word) self-examination. The simple fact was that no one else was talking about it, despite its obvious, direct relevance to the subject matter. Trying to keep biology out of the discussion is awkward and constrictive.

[Yoda]

I think that if you put it all in a historical perspective you would find out that a woman of the 21st century is a lot more aggressive and risk-taking than a woman of the 19th century. This is connected to the various waves of feminist movements, women's liberation and the emancipation. An illustrative example: men commits more crime than women, but along with women demanding and gaining more equal rights and starting to work more than before, they have also started to commit more crimes. In other words, things that traditionally have been thought of as bilogically typical for men has more to do with how society is structured. When women are allowed to be more like men, they will act like men, and vice versa. Or when Emile Durkheim in his brilliant book Suicide found that men, and especially protestant men, were more likely to commit suicide than women; I'm sure you would find that today when women have become more incorporated in the world of modernity, they have also begun to take their lives more than before.Again, this only shows that socialization has an effect; not that its effect can change fundamental realities. Let's use your example of crime: in the 1930s, the man-to-woman arrest ratio in America was 12-to-1. As of 2000, it had narrowed to 4-to-1. The essay I linked to earlier delves into this a bit.

This shows that socialization likely played a part in the size of the original gap...but 4-to-1 is still a massive difference given that there are roughly an even number of men and women in the United States, and I think it unlikely that socialization accounts for all of it. Notice, for example, that we're not comparing men to women, but women of the past to women of the present.

Which brings me back to my original point: that basic definitions of masculinity and femininity are, if not universal, very nearly so, and that details about family and the workplace are not fundamental to these definitions. Therefore cross-culture discrepancies in these areas do not demonstrate that gender is purely the result of culture. If that were so, we would not see such tremendous overlap in gender roles across so many societies.

[Kong: The Sequel]

Often, but not always.
I had this notion that we might discuss those times when it doesn't.\

Kong's not completely convinced of this, but Kong could be wrong. Let's hear 'em.

Really.

If you're convinced that I'm a pure naturist, then so be it. I may be an athiestic evolutionist but that doesn't mean I discount the power of nurture and social influence. The very fact that I have to defend myself on this point when I never ever even ****ing suggested that nature and biology can explain all is pissing me the **** off. All I'm saying is that nature and biology are almost always a part of the explanation.

That's really unfair. Also, I asked questions that you didn't answer, but you make this strawman point to me? :nope:

I didn't realize your unfair insults required a fair response.

But.. 200 years ago, they did.
Are you messing with me? You're messing with me, aren't you? :p

Women wore ties? Could you provide some links to information on the wearing of lipstick on men in the past? Kong is certainly interested in its origins and demise, but he suspects it wasn't used to advertise their vaginal lips.

[Tacitus]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?

1. My father - All the way from giving me a glass of beer when I was 5 'till showing me that going on a 5 day bender whilst having an affair and returning with your wife in the middle of a breakdown and the kids screaming on the floor is a BAD decision.

I still did exactly the same thing, although I dunno if that crosses the border to determinism or just plain being a stupid [expletive deleted] who didn't know on which side his bread was buttered.

2. My Grandfather (maternal) who was a polar opposite to my first role model. He was still a huntin', shootin' and fishin' sort of bloke. But he had respect.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?

In this country, men are required to tick the same masculine boxes that middle class apologists think departed 40 years ago - but they still defer to the Matriarch in times of crisis.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

I shaved my legs once...

[Piddzilla]

Again, this only shows that socialization has an effect; not that its effect can change fundamental realities. Let's use your example of crime: in the 1930s, the man-to-woman arrest ratio in America was 12-to-1. As of 2000, it had narrowed to 4-to-1. The essay I linked to earlier delves into this a bit.

This shows that socialization likely played a part in the size of the original gap...but 4-to-1 is still a massive difference given that there are roughly an even number of men and women in the United States, and I think it unlikely that socialization accounts for all of it. Notice, for example, that we're not comparing men to women, but women of the past to women of the present.

Which brings me back to my original point: that basic definitions of masculinity and femininity are, if not universal, very nearly so, and that details about family and the workplace are not fundamental to these definitions. Therefore cross-culture discrepancies in these areas do not demonstrate that gender is purely the result of culture. If that were so, we would not see such tremendous overlap in gender roles across so many societies.

I have to say that I do belive that socialization, if you prefer to call it that, accounts for that 4-to-1 ratio. That would symbolize that if the american society was a company then women would own 20% of the stocks and men 80%. I think that's sounds pretty close to reality...

I'm sorry, but I have to go to bed... I have read your last paragraph five times now and it just doesn't make any sense. I'll give it another shot tomorrow...

Night night...

[SamsoniteDelilah]

...Could you provide some links to information on the wearing of lipstick on men in the past? Kong is certainly interested in its origins and demise, but he suspects it wasn't used to advertise their vaginal lips.
Rent Amadeus and behold: men wore makeup.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?

1. My father - All the way from giving me a glass of beer when I was 5 'till showing me that going on a 5 day bender whilst having an affair and returning with your wife in the middle of a breakdown and the kids screaming on the floor is a BAD decision.

I still did exactly the same thing, although I dunno if that crosses the border to determinism or just plain being a stupid [expletive deleted] who didn't know on which side his bread was buttered.
bleargh. I can relate. There are things my mom did because she was taught that's what girls do that she passed on to me and I'd love to pack 'em up and send 'em back.

2. My Grandfather (maternal) who was a polar opposite to my first role model. He was still a huntin', shootin' and fishin' sort of bloke. But he had respect.


What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?

In this country, men are required to tick the same masculine boxes that middle class apologists think departed 40 years ago - but they still defer to the Matriarch in times of crisis.
Now that's interesting. We don't do that here, as a rule.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

I shaved my legs once...
:)
What did you think of it?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Oh, pshaw. No one is eschewing (good word) self-examination. The simple fact was that no one else was talking about it, despite its obvious, direct relevance to the subject matter. Trying to keep biology out of the discussion is awkward and constrictive.
But you didn't merely include biology. You substituted it for behavioral influence and denied that anything or anyone had influenced your perception of what is male. Read the answers you wrote to my questions. Some of you guys are clearly very uncomfortable with discussing things that aren't 'hard science'. It's a pity, too, because there's more to life and you can't discuss it on a board where everything has to be footnoted and Googleable. Why can't you simply talk about your perception of how you learned what "male" meant or what "female" meant in the world in which you grew up?

[Kong: The Sequel]

Rent Amadeus and behold: men wore makeup.

I never claimed that men didn't wear makeup. I specifically mentioned lipstick. Its irrelevant that men wore makeup whose function is convey general health and fertility because both sexes look for those qualities in a mate. However, it would be rather odd for men to rouge their lips the way females do, because the use of bright red lipstick is to mimic the reddening and swelling of the vaginal lips during arousal (tribal lip-plates are a variation on the same idea). You may question that the wearing of lipstick is sexual at all, but then you'd have to explain why and how the practice was originated by prostitutes and was somehow not sexual in nature.

Of course in some current sub-cultures men are now wearing lipstick (goth for example) but they are not using red lipstick and its purpose appears to be one of both rebellion (from the parent culture) and conformity (into the sub-culture).

So really I'm not talk about makeup, but lipstick, and not just lipstick but red lipstick.

[7thson]

But you didn't merely include biology. You substituted it for behavioral influence and denied that anything or anyone had influenced your perception of what is male. Read the answers you wrote to my questions. Some of you guys are clearly very uncomfortable with discussing things that aren't 'hard science'. It's a pity, too, because there's more to life and you can't discuss it on a board where everything has to be footnoted and Googleable. Why can't you simply talk about your perception of how you learned what "male" meant or what "female" meant in the world in which you grew up?
Not to sound harsh but male=weiner.....female= nonweiner whats the confusion here?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

" As early as 10,000 BC, men were grooming themselves using scented oils and ointments to clean and soften their skin and mask body odor. Mans use of makeup began with dyes and paints that were used to make-up and color the skin, body and hair. At this time men?s makeup not only included rouge for their lips and cheeks, but makeup for the nails using henna as a stain."

"From 7,000 to 4,000 BC, the fatty oils of olive and sesame were combined with fragrant plants to create the original Neolithic ointments for use in men?s grooming and men?s skin care. When the Egyptians were learning to write and make bricks in 3,000 BC... man and makeup took a step forward with the use of a clay called red ochre, which men used to make-up their lips, cheeks and nails."

"There is evidence that the Vikings also liked to wear make-up as the Arab traveler Ibrahim Al-Tartushi who visited the Viking trading hub of Hedeby in 950AD wrote: "there is also an artificial make-up for the eyes, when they use it beauty never fades, on the contrary it increases in men and women as well". What he was observing was probably the use of kohl as men?s makeup"

"During the reign of Elizabeth I of England, men?s grooming and men?s makeup made a popular come back. Man?s use of makeup was prevalent and everyone was enthusiastically joining in the fun. Popular men?s grooming treatments included rosemary water for the hair and sage to whiten teeth. Men?s skin care included elderflower ointment for the skin, bathing in wine, and an egg and honey mask to smooth away wrinkles. Men?s makeup included geranium petal rouge and lipstick to suggest health, wealth and gaiety. Pale skin became a make-up trend de jour. Unknowingly, the makeup used to whiten the skin was made with lead and arsenic, which resulted in many early deaths?some premeditated. Men?s grooming also included the bleaching of their hair with lye, which understandably caused it to fall out. So men?s grooming began to include wigs, and men?s makeup included the use of powder."

All from one easily-found source: http://www.4voo.com/education/ed_history.htm

[7thson]

Just because our ancestors were stupid doesnt mean we cannot learn from or mistakes does it....serioulsy I am asking?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Just because our ancestors were stupid doesnt mean we cannot learn from or mistakes does it....serioulsy I am asking?
I'd hope we can learn from our ancestor's mistakes, though most people I know can't even take advice from people they know personally, let alone look at their ancestry. But what do you see as 'stupid mistakes' in terms of gender roles?

[Kong: The Sequel]

SamsoniteDelilah,

Interesting article. I'll have to reread it, and do some research since its completely unsourced and hosted on a commercial site whose existence centers around selling cosmetics to men. I'm not saying that the information in the article isn't true, just that I'm going to hold out judgement until I do some further reading and research.

I may be too busy too reply tomorrow, but I'll try.

[LordSlaytan]

http://www.oneposter.com/UserData/Poster/Poster_8236.jpg


In my own humble opinion, biology and sociology have equal merit when it concerns the conditioning of a human being to recognize, adopt, and embrace their own personal gender. There’s also plain old hard wiring of the brain to consider as well. Two people can be raised in nearly identical living environments, and have the same stimuli, and still become completely different people. Genetics play a key role in how a person develops too. I know you weren’t trying to say that societal influences play the only role in how a persons gender develops, but your questions, in their generality, actually seem to suggest that. What could have been a light hearted ask and answer forum turned into a number of arguments where there is no real winner. All the different ingredients mix together to make the soup of a persons gender, at least, that’s how I see it…anyway…here are my answers:



Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
My father was non existent and my mother was, well…an entity unto herself. I remember in kindergarten, I fell in love for the first time…so I guess it just came naturally to me. Then again…I didn’t get Barbie dolls for Christmas, but I doubt I would have wanted them even if I had. I think that I assumed the role of a traditional male at a very early age, due to, well, nature.


What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
In my family, there didn’t seem to be any…I was never taught that women belonged in the kitchen by voice, but my father never cooked. Yet, my mother also broke her back doing hard outdoor work on our property in the country. She was never a feminine individual in my lifetime. My grandparents, however, were more traditional. Again, I was never taught differences between men and women verbally, but I could see that my grandfather on my fathers side, wore the pants. None of the women in my family were all that feminine, so that might have something to do with the way I so easily was attracted to pretty girls at such a young age. I have no sisters.


Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
I was sexually abused by an uncle during my early years, so yes, I believe I had, though not by choice. He would have me wear girls underwear a lot, which didn’t do a whole lot for my self-image. Couple forced behavior like that with the shame and guilt from abuse, and you will find a boy that has no specific identity when it comes to gender. I believe that that conditioning had a lot to do with who I became later…over compensating feelings of weakness with excessive violence, etc. But, deep down, and I believe this is also rooted from the abuse, I am in direct contact with my feminine side. Other than that ability, I cannot think of any way in my lifetime where I cross the line.

[Tacitus]

bleargh. I can relate. There are things my mom did because she was taught that's what girls do that she passed on to me and I'd love to pack 'em up and send 'em back.

As I said before, and you've got me thinking about this one - I don't know whether my descent into becoming a mini-me version of my Da was the result of conditioning, genetics or coincidence (probably all 3).

I didn't see him at all from the age of 12 through to 18 (ie my adolescence), and when I did it was unsettling to say the least. I had the same mannerisms, the same laugh, the same taste in music. Sadly the whole shebang ended in a bout of finger-pointing and industrial language and we didn't speak for a further 3 years. Anything I did wrong during my adolescence was greeted with a "You're the image of your father" retort from my mother - 50% of blame on me for being a prat, 50% of blame on him for siring a prat...


Now that's interesting. We don't do that here, as a rule.

It's ever been thus here, even today the last throws of terrorist racketeering are being opposed most vocally by Womens' groups (and previously, the Peace People, who grew out of Civil unrest generated from the Bloody Sunday killings). As a guy's just said on the radio - when these guys go home at night they don't have to sleep with a politician...


What did you think of it?

It itched (though a 5 day growth on my chin itches too) and laddered my stockings. ;)

[Piddzilla]

Which brings me back to my original point: that basic definitions of masculinity and femininity are, if not universal, very nearly so, and that details about family and the workplace are not fundamental to these definitions. Therefore cross-culture discrepancies in these areas do not demonstrate that gender is purely the result of culture. If that were so, we would not see such tremendous overlap in gender roles across so many societies.

I think you're right when you're saying that the definitions are more or less universal, if you by universal are talking about the industrial world.

I think we have to seperate two things. In a pre-modern tribe untouched by industrialism I think you will have a hard time deciding who's man and who's woman by just watching the behaviour of the individuals (well, there are a couple of things that can decide this in a second, but apart from that). I think men and women's roles in a society like these are divided for pratical reasons. Women bear children and therefore take care of children and do work where they can take their kids with them. Men hunt and protect the tribe because their muscles are bigger and their bodies are physically stronger. Since they have more muscles it is possible that they will control and lead the tribe, unless they worship females for being able to give birth to life and perhaps in that case women lead the tribe. Men liked big butts and boobs because it signals to them that they want to have sex and have many children to secure the future of the tribe. Women liked big men because they are strong and capable of taking care of the tribe. Today women like guys with a lot of money or a lot of power and influence for the same reasons, they want to secure the future. Men still like women with big butts and big boobs though becuase their position is threatened by a powerful, rich, influential woman, so those women don't turn men on. (Yes, I am generalizing... I am about to make a point, ok...).

Anyway, these things are biological, yes. But this has to do with the human reproduction, not gender roles. Some people here mix up gender roles with where the guy wants to put his pecker. A homosexual man can be very masculine and still being openly homosexual.

The difference between men and women when it comes to executives positons in corporations and so on has nothing to do with men being biologically better bosses, better go-getters, more aggressive or risk-taking. It has to do with the fact that boys are raised like that while girls are raised to be cheerleaders. It is totally a social construction that reaches through every corner of society from within the family and the school system, to television/media and the political stage.

[blibblobblib]

It is so weird that this thread has just come up, im writing an essay on this exact subject, what defines gender? Is Gender literally defined to our biological make-up, or does the society in which we grow up and the influences in our family life shape what type of gender we feel we should be. You guys should read Michel Foucault's History of Sexuality, its very deep but very good. Being John Malkovich (sp?) is a silm that really messes with the idea of gender as im sure you all know. Cameron Diaz's charcter finds she is sexually attracted to other women when she is only in the boyd of a man? but not when she is a woman? Very odd. I would talk more about it but im meant to be writing the essay now and i havnt done enough :(

[chicagofrog]

how to create an unexpectedly successful thread in ten seconds
author: SamsoniteDelilah
publisher: MoFo
2005

[Piddzilla]

It is so weird that this thread has just come up, im writing an essay on this exact subject, what defines gender? Is Gender literally defined to our biological make-up, or does the society in which we grow up and the influences in our family life shape what type of gender we feel we should be. You guys should read Michel Foucault's History of Sexuality, its very deep but very good. Being John Malkovich (sp?) is a silm that really messes with the idea of gender as im sure you all know. Cameron Diaz's charcter finds she is sexually attracted to other women when she is only in the boyd of a man? but not when she is a woman? Very odd. I would talk more about it but im meant to be writing the essay now and i havnt done enough :(

That's funny. We're discussing Foucault during this course in my sociology class. I haven't had time to read the litterature on him yet but the lecture about him was very interesting. How society constructs sexuality and all that. Intruiging stuff... And the way he did his research was interesting too.

And I just fininshed my part of essay-writing for today. :D

[blibblobblib]

And I just fininshed my part of essay-writing for today. :DYou sicken me...

[SamsoniteDelilah]

...The difference between men and women when it comes to executives positons in corporations and so on has nothing to do with men being biologically better bosses, better go-getters, more aggressive or risk-taking. It has to do with the fact that boys are raised like that while girls are raised to be cheerleaders. It is totally a social construction that reaches through every corner of society from within the family and the school system, to television/media and the political stage.
This is something I've talked to several women about recently, and is part of what got me thinking about this thread. Women I know have been brought up with the notion that certain things make them a "good girl": being soft-spoken, helpful, supportive, unselfish, cheerful and pleasant. I accepted this at a young age. And then I read "Me" by Katharine Hepburn. Holy Moses. That woman negotiated her own contracts with studio execs when she was in her early 20's! She was never taught that she had to put herself last in order to be a "good girl". She was taught from a young age to compete (to win), to excel, to get what she wanted. In US middle class culture, those are things taught to boys.

It truly gobsmacks me that in this age when we'd like to think so much has changed, that we're largely just unaware of the ways in which boys and girls are treated differently. I do think it's changing, and that younger people are getting a more homogenous message. It will be interesting to see how that plays out in the next 30 years or so.

[Piddzilla]

You sicken me...

I want your gender...

[blibblobblib]

I want your gender...
My gender cost me more money than the richest Sultan of Agrabar and a damn lot of Aspirin, Lube and Pesto...

but for you my friend...for free ;)

[Piddzilla]

My gender cost me more money than the richest Sultan of Agrabar and a damn lot of Aspirin, Lube and Pesto...

but for you my friend...for free ;)

You sicken me...

[blibblobblib]

You sicken me...
You want my gender...so you can have it! Lube and all!

[SamsoniteDelilah]

You sicken me...
He smiled when he said that, blib.
I saw him!

[Piddzilla]

You want my gender...so you can have it! Lube and all!

Mmmm... lube... :licklips:

[blibblobblib]

He smiled when he said that, blib.
I saw him!
I Knnnew it!
Mmmm... lube... :licklips:
I buy it in bulk. impressive no? :modest:

[Kong: The Sequel]

The difference between men and women when it comes to executives positons in corporations and so on has nothing to do with men being biologically better bosses, better go-getters, more aggressive or risk-taking.

This may not be entirely true. You pointed out earlier in your post that in tribal societies men did the hunting, and said that this was "because their muscles are bigger and their bodies are physically stronger", but you must also consider how evolution might effect these huters. Since humans have spent the majority of their history in tribes like these, it's likely that men evolved to be more aggresive and risk-taking than women for two reasons. One reason would be that it would make a better hunter, and the other reason being that men are quite a bit more expendable than women.

Obviously these traits are maleable by societal influence to a pretty surprising degree, but I think it's likely that there is also some degree of biology behind it.

[SpoOkY]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?

My Father and Brother and probably TV, but it was all voluntary. When I smashed trucks I liked it but when my sister did she thought it was boring. (mmm thought provoking question Delila :) )

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?

To smash trucks until the cows came home then shoot with toy guns till dinner.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

When I was four my sister dressed me up as a girl and made all my relatives laugh which scarred me for life and now I flee from feminine clothes. So not since then no :D

[SamsoniteDelilah]

...I think that I assumed the role of a traditional male at a very early age, due to, well, nature.
And you knew from the minute the doctor smacked your arse what that role was? C'mon.


What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
In my family, there didn?t seem to be any?
Not many families put you through gender bootcamp and issue you your Man Card. But the attitudes are prevalent and kids pick up on those, as you indicated in several places in your post. That's the stuff I'm curious about here. I can go read a biology book if I want someone's theories on how biology affects gender roles. This forum has a lot of interesting people from all over the world and all over the age-map. The biologists can ramble on if thy like here, but this is why I asked the questions I did: I believe that the people who post here are capable of saying what influenced them without referring to a textbook.

I happen to know that Jodi Foster and Kim Richards were the epitome of "girl" to me when I was a kid. Jodi was smart and non-fussy and Kim had a cool purse and ESP. You will not find that in a text book. You can't Google that. Well, actually, NOW you could, but not before I wrote it. I'm just more interested in personal perceptions. That's why I asked for them.

Besides that, I FLUNKED Biology, I HATE it, and I'm holding my hand over every post about it so I don't have to read it for the rest of the thread. ::hairflip::


I was never taught that women belonged in the kitchen by voice, but my father never cooked. Yet, my mother also broke her back doing hard outdoor work on our property in the country. She was never a feminine individual in my lifetime. My grandparents, however, were more traditional. Again, I was never taught differences between men and women verbally, but I could see that my grandfather on my fathers side, wore the pants. None of the women in my family were all that feminine, so that might have something to do with the way I so easily was attracted to pretty girls at such a young age. I have no sisters.
So, how did you know your mom wasn't feminine?

[LordSlaytan]

And you knew from the minute the doctor smacked your arse what that role was? C'mon. I don’t remember much from that time of my life. C’mon.

So, how did you know your mom wasn't feminine?Because she was a tough as nails drill sergeant type that spent most of her time chopping wood and screaming. She was large, almost asexual in appearance, and didn’t do frilly.


Seriously though, I don’t know what you want.

We ALL saw boys being boys and girls being girls. We all saw television, and on it were boys being boys, and girls being girls. In school…boys being boys, and girls being girls. Are you expecting something deeper than that?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

:yup:

[LordSlaytan]

But you just mentioned seeing things in movies and television...how is that deeper?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

It was personal and specific.
I'd be willing to bet you that neither susan nor Ash nor Yoda saw Jodi Foster OR Kim Richards as gender role models.

Hey Lord... if you don't want to talk about it, that's cool. I have no interest in forcing you. You clearly put some time and effort into you post and I felt it deserved a response, but my interest is exploration, not debate.

[ash_is_the_gal]

in my opinion, girls act like girls and boys act like boys purely out of instinct. Isn't there a difference between girls adopting feminine behavior from their mother, and actually liking it? I know for myself, I enjoyed playing with barbies, wearing pretty dresses, and having long hair. not because i thought i SHOULD like it...i just liked it.

i even remember how i envied my sister because she was such a tom boy. i used to WISH i enjoyed the kinds of things she did. she loved playing sports, and she was good at them. she was aggressive, outgoing, and competitive..all traits that i didn't have in myself, and i wished i did. i hated gym class, because i was so bad at sports, kids would make fun of me for it. but i just DIDN'T enjoy them. sure, i enjoyed running, swimming, playing, but when it came to actual sports i wasn't any good.

what does it say when a girl actually envies antoher girl because of this? to me, it says that even though me and my sister grew up in the same household, we both were different in the way that i enjoyed playing dressup, while she enjoyed playing baseball. and i obviously didn't do those things because i thought thats what i should be doing. i wished i could play sports, but i couldn't, and i didn't enjoy it. its just...instinct, i guess.

[LordSlaytan]

It was personal and specific.
I'd be willing to bet you that neither susan nor Ash nor Yoda saw Jodi Foster OR Kim Richards as gender role models. Madam, saying how a girl behaved like a girl on television is the same thing as what I said…specific or not. I watched The Dirty Dozen when I was a little kid. I saw guys with guns…that’s specific, but it’s still saying the same damn thing. I never had any role models on TV. My dad acted like a guy, so did my brothers. My mom acted like a guy, I had no sisters. My Uncle was effeminate, and wanted me to act the same way…throw that into the equation. On TV and in movies, there were men who acted like men, and men who acted extremely gay, though we didn’t label it as such. (See Gomer Pyle and Lloyd from Mayberry as examples)

Hey Lord... if you don't want to talk about it, that's cool. I have no interest in forcing you. You clearly put some time and effort into you post and I felt it deserved a response, but my interest is exploration, not debate.It’s not that I don’t want to talk about it, because I HAVE been talking about it…but you didn’t like what I said and got sarcastic…which took a lot of the fun out of it. I never debated with you, I answered to the best of my ability and knowledge. You don’t want to hear it when anybody wants to say that there is more to it than what we see, so what can we say.

I feel I turned out masculine because it was my NATURE to do so. There was no epiphany. There was no sudden enlightenment. I didn’t have exposure to girls until kindergarten, and then I found I really, really, liked them. I guess it came naturally, but you don’t want to accept or hear that…so I don’t know what else to tell you.

what does it say when a girl actually envies antoher girl because of this?Same stimuli...different results...in a way. You both wound up straight women.

I liked what you had to say, Ash...it makes sense to me.

[Piddzilla]

I liked what you had to say, Ash...it makes sense to me.

It makes sense to me too, it's the standard answer and about the same as Glitter gave.

Thing is, if Ash was a guy I think it is possible that there would have been a lot more pressure on her to try and try harder to become good at all those things that she wasn't good at. Her sister had a talent for things that boys are "supposed to" have a talent for. I remember gym class... There were a lot of guys that hated soccer and basketball but when they sucked they were pushed to practice and try harder. The girls who sucked - well, what can you do? They're girls for crying out loud! And for all you girls who say on here you liked to "dance around" and "play with barbies", it came naturally to you... Did anybody ever tell you that was not okay, explicitly or implicitly? I had a barbie once. Barbie drove a car that I thought was awesome but the doll came with it. Of course no one told me I couldn't play with the doll, but it quickly became a funny little anecdote how I "accepted the doll to get the car". Boys who "dance around" and "play with barbies" aren't that normal according to our society's norms. They don't necessarily have to be cast out of society, but they are slightly different...

Over to Kong's post. Yes, there was a biological reason to why men became leaders, and that is the reason to why most leaders in our society are men. But the biggest reason is that men has always been the boss and why should they let go of that privilege? Men are very conservative on that point regardless of political ideology. What is it that tells us that a boss needs to be aggressive? History and tradition, probably. I read an article the other day which said that some research showed that the most successful and effective company decision was being made by boards where male and female executives worked actively together (not talking about boards that have 50% women on insignigicant seats just so rabid feminist will shut up). Men in premodern tribes needed to be built well and to be good warriors to defend themselves and their tribe against attacks threatening the tribe members or against other men trying to seize their power. But environment effects evolution and we don't live in a premodern environment anymore. But still some very old norms and values live on, because it benefits those in power. I think there are several features that distinguish a great leader today, features that can be taken both from traditionally male behaviour and from traditionally female behaviour. But men defend their position in power by claiming that a good leader needs all those premodern features to be successful. Now, I know that you can argue against this by saying that a good leader is a leader that acts the way the people being led expect him to act. But I say that a good leader will convince the people by doing the job well. This is why female leaders to success don't have to be as good as men, they have to be better. But those exemplary female leaders are pioneers and being great leaders for all women [I]and men.

[Anonymous Last]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
I was taught through story books given to me by my uncle Lisa and my aunt Rico.


What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
There were no strict requirements that I can remember...though I hated to wear the frilly apron when I would have to do my house hold chores.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
Not really. I played with trucks when I was little and who cares if I was the only kid on my street with a big pink truck. Though the blue party dress at my seventh birthday was a bit much.

[chicagofrog]

Besides that, I FLUNKED Biology, I HATE it, and I'm holding my hand over every post about it so I don't have to read it for the rest of the thread.

some would say women think with their emotions, what they like and dislike, not their brains. sure, stupid men say that. :( like "intelligent" women can say men think with their penis. how fair is the fair sex, right? :( :mad: :(
some prefer to discard arguments cuz they don't like them. hate them. :eek:
and some try to control their emotions and think with their brains.
this far, it's been male friends i've seen doing that. as soon as it gets personal, emotions take over and... your oh-so-smart women... just stop reasoning. seen that again and again. last time one week ago...
is this education? yep, on this one i do agree with you. i don't, can't believe they are genetically completely unable to discuss coldly about something. biology, sure, doesn't help, but i'm sure they allow themselves so much dumbness cuz they can use as a pretense that in this society, men treat them bad and blah. so you'll never have to improve yourself. it's someone else's fault. (or something, the damn penis??) and you'll see, they'll say men (and me) have prejudices! just cuz i mention that they're full of prejudices. yeah, rhetoric is that easy...
but my experience of course is based on stereotypes, or it's been bad luck, and i'm generalizing, and i was probably drunk when i saw that happen over and over, and of course, i don't have a right to talk and think and have an opinion, since you can always answer to me: "you think with your penis"... (how totally easy to say when the ones thinking in genders and defending themselves/arguing not as a person but as a member of a sexual category, are not men, but women.)... so discard me and biology too. or any opinion that's not as politically correct as "we are all the same (genetically, and if we're not, it's all society's fault creating steretypes"...).

[SamsoniteDelilah]

.... Isn't there a difference between girls adopting feminine behavior from their mother, and actually liking it?
Yes. That's been said several times in this thread. I believe that it supports my point that we don't like things and not like other things simply because of our sex. You and your sister are both girls and you have similar genetic make-up, but you were/are different socially.


I know for myself, I enjoyed playing with barbies, wearing pretty dresses, and having long hair. not because i thought i SHOULD like it...i just liked it.

i even remember how i envied my sister because she was such a tom boy. i used to WISH i enjoyed the kinds of things she did. she loved playing sports, and she was good at them. she was aggressive, outgoing, and competitive..all traits that i didn't have in myself, and i wished i did. i hated gym class, because i was so bad at sports, kids would make fun of me for it. but i just DIDN'T enjoy them. sure, i enjoyed running, swimming, playing, but when it came to actual sports i wasn't any good.

what does it say when a girl actually envies antoher girl because of this? to me, it says that even though me and my sister grew up in the same household, we both were different in the way that i enjoyed playing dressup, while she enjoyed playing baseball. and i obviously didn't do those things because i thought thats what i should be doing. i wished i could play sports, but i couldn't, and i didn't enjoy it. its just...instinct, i guess.
OK. That's all interesting, but you're talking about matters of personal taste there, not social conditioning. Thanks for answering though, Ash. I know you were reluctant since this is turning into a bit of a melee, so I do appreciate your thoughts. :)

[SamsoniteDelilah]

some would say women think with their emotions, what they like and dislike, not their brains. sure, stupid men say that. :( like "intelligent" women can say men think with their penis. how fair is the fair sex, right? :( :mad: :(
some prefer to discard arguments cuz they don't like them. hate them. :eek:
and some try to control their emotions and think with their brains.
this far, it's been male friends i've seen doing that. as soon as it gets personal, emotions take over and... your oh-so-smart women... just stop reasoning. seen that again and again. last time one week ago...
is this education? yep, on this one i do agree with you. i don't, can't believe they are genetically completely unable to discuss coldly about something. biology, sure, doesn't help, but i'm sure they allow themselves so much dumbness cuz they can use as a pretense that in this society, men treat them bad and blah. so you'll never have to improve yourself. it's someone else's fault. (or something, the damn penis??) and you'll see, they'll say men (and me) have prejudices! just cuz i mention that they're full of prejudices. yeah, rhetoric is that easy...
but my experience of course is based on stereotypes, or it's been bad luck, and i'm generalizing, and i was probably drunk when i saw that happen over and over, and of course, i don't have a right to talk and think and have an opinion, since you can always answer to me: "you think with your penis"... (how totally easy to say when the ones thinking in genders and defending themselves/arguing not as a person but as a member of a sexual category, are not men, but women.)... so discard me and biology too. or any opinion that's not as politically correct as "we are all the same (genetically, and if we're not, it's all society's fault creating steretypes"...).
I am not discarding an arguement.
I am simply not HAVING it.

[chicagofrog]

was that supposed to be, like, loud?

and back to yr Q:

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?

i'm still learning.
(and each time i have an argument with the opposite sex, i feel more like a man, and like being one)

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?

dunno. maybe sport at school? that is socker, and all team-based sporttypes i dislike so much?

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

i always do, alliance and dalliance.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
I was taught through story books given to me by my uncle Lisa and my aunt Rico.


What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
There were no strict requirements that I can remember...though I hated to wear the frilly apron when I would have to do my house hold chores.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
Not really. I played with trucks when I was little and who cares if I was the only kid on my street with a big pink truck. Though the blue party dress at my seventh birthday was a bit much.
Wisearse.
You obviously know exactly what we're talking about. :p

[SamsoniteDelilah]

was that supposed to be, like, loud?
The 7 times I'd said the same thing already didn't seem to register.
If the big red letters don't work, I could try putting it to music and adding jazz hands, but I'm running out of ways to say the same thing.

[Anonymous Last]

Wisearse.
You obviously know exactly what we're talking about. :p
I tried!

*shrugs*

[LordSlaytan]

...social conditioning...Conditioning...My mother dressed me in boy clothes. My toys were masculine toys. I rode dirt bikes. I was never told not to clean and cook...but my father did neither. I was never given tools...though my father used them. I was never talked to about sex...but when I saw girls, I got that 'funny' feeling. I saw heterosexual stereotypes in movies and on television. My entire family, except my uncle were heterosexual. I loved army men and lincoln logs...I was never given dolls, except a Raggedy Ann...which I ignored. My friends were boys...we played war, cowboys and indians, and sportish activities. I don't ever remember doing girly things and then told it was improper. I don't ever remember ever wanting to do girly things...so it was never an issue. I WAS taught not to ever hit girls, to be respectful and kind to them, and by watching my brothers interacting with them...learned that they were mighty fine and highly desirable. I feel that outside of those things, being a regular boy came naturally to me. I cannot fathom what it might have been like being taught to be feminine, because I never had that kind of stimuli. As far back as I can remember, I have always been aggressive, opinionated, bullheaded, and strong (with a small window of self-doubt due to the abuse). As far back as I can remember, I have ALWAYS wanted to touch, carress, love, taste, worship, and adore girls...even when my uncle was trying to make me feel differently.

If you want more specifics or elaboration, C...walk me through it a little better. No harm, no foul.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Conditioning...My mother dressed me in boy clothes. My toys were masculine toys. I rode dirt bikes. I was never told not to clean and cook...but my father did neither. I was never given tools...though my father used them. I was never talked to about sex...but when I saw girls, I got that 'funny' feeling. I saw heterosexual stereotypes in movies and on television. My entire family, except my uncle were heterosexual. I loved army men and lincoln logs...I was never given dolls, except a Raggedy Ann...which I ignored. My friends were boys...we played war, cowboys and indians, and sportish activities. I don't ever remember doing girly things and then told it was improper. I don't ever remember ever wanting to do girly things...so it was never an issue. I WAS taught not to ever hit girls, to be respectful and kind to them, and by watching my brothers interacting with them...learned that they were mighty fine and highly desirable. I feel that outside of those things, being a regular boy came naturally to me. I cannot fathom what it might have been like being taught to be feminine, because I never had that kind of stimuli. As far back as I can remember, I have always been aggressive, opinionated, bullheaded, and strong (with a small window of self-doubt due to the abuse). As far back as I can remember, I have ALWAYS wanted to touch, carress, love, taste, worship, and adore girls...even when my uncle was trying to make me feel differently.

If you want more specifics or elaboration, C...walk me through it a little better. No harm, no foul.
Cool. Some of that is what I'm wondering about.

I guess, based on some of the responses here, that we're still living in a much more homophobic environment than I realised. A LOT of people have been really uncomfortable with the question. I really didn't see it as questioning anyone's sex or gender preferences, or even relating to those issues, but it's come up over and over. I'm further guessing that it's more acceptable for a female to have boyish traits than for a boy to be less than "all boy", based on the fact that most guys here have preferred to fight about a side issue rather than examine their own influences. (And before I get the shreiking "sexist" thing again: that's not a generalization, it's an observable trend.) I always had boyish traits, and while I was never berated for spending my days on my bike or climbing trees, I was berated for talking loudly and being "bossy" and "too smart". I've also been told, straight-faced by a good male friend, that I'm "too funny" for most guys to want to date. The guy has to be the funnier one . And taller. :rolleyes:

[Anonymous Last]

I've also been told, straight-faced by a good male friend, that I'm "too funny" for most guys to want to date. The guy has to be the funnier one . And taller. :rolleyes:I used to date a taller funnier girl and it made me gay!

But only for a minute!

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I used to date a taller funnier girl and it made me gay!

But ony for a minute!
... per hour?


:D
:: puts up dukes ::

[SamsoniteDelilah]

was that supposed to be, like, loud?

and back to yr Q:

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?

i'm still learning.
(and each time i have an argument with the opposite sex, i feel more like a man, and like being one)

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?

dunno. maybe sport at school? that is socker, and all team-based sporttypes i dislike so much?

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?

i always do, alliance and dalliance.
I just saw this. Thanks for responding, even with your mysogenistic parenthetical remarks...

Maybe it will help if you know that lots of women (myself among them) find it very attractive when a man doesn't have to "act like a man".

[Anonymous Last]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
I would have to say my father...
I grew up in my father's house with my brother.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
My father's girlfriends would show my brother and I affection though we were not allowed to show emotions. We had to be strong and hard toward others. If I let my feelings out when I was little...I was called a little girl. We were more like little soldiers than little boys. We were taught to be violent. Not a whole lot of love from the old man.

I don't think I knew how to answer this one...

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
I was criticized by my father for coloring in a Barbie coloring book when I was playing in my girl cousin's room.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
I would have to say my father...
I grew up in my father's house with my brother.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
My father's girlfriends would show my brother and I affection though we were not allowed to show emotions. We had to be strong and hard toward others. If I let my feelings out when I was little...I was called a little girl. We were more like little soldiers than little boys. We were taught to be violent. Not a whole lot of love from the old man.

I don't think I knew how to answer this one...
No worries, this is pass-fail. ;)
This makes me curious about one thing: on a scale of 1 to 10, how much would you say you still try not to show emotion? (10= you're a total vault, 1= you cry when you step on ants)

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
I was criticized by my father for coloring in a Barbie coloring book when I was playing in my girl cousin's room.
Did your father not have any sisters?

[7thson]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
I learned from my parents and older siblings on what the "proper" gender roles were.
A lot of people seem to disagree with what proper is, but I do not think I turned out too badly, at least not in terms of this topic.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
None that I recall. I was never forced to do or not do anything I did not want to. If one of us were alowwed to do it then we all were, at least in terms of our gender. Age made a difference however, as well it should I think.


Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
Sure, at least I think so. I am more open about my ability to be empathetic than a lot of men I know are. Not that it is good or bad, it is just who I am. I also love to cook and not just the BBQ thing. I like to spend time in the kitchen, and love it when the family tells me how good dinner is.


I would like to add:
I know the topic of biology is one that seems to spark emotions one way or another, but it cannot be ignored in terms of gender. It is part of the chemical make up of who were are. I could go into studies of castrated mice, monkeys, even humans where it is proven that the lack of certain things that make up our bodies influences our behaviors, but I am sure there is no need.
In the end though, I do not think biology wholly is responsible either. It is a multi-influencial world we live in and respect is what is most important in my book, no matter who you are physically or otherwise.

P.S. I love the NFL, Women, and Hooters chicken wings...maybe i should have listed women first hmmmmm. Well those uniforms they wear on the field can sure be fun to look at.......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The cheerleaders uniforms .... shhheshhh

[LordSlaytan]

Sure, at least I think so. I am more open about my ability to be empathetic than a lot of men I know are. Not that it is good or bad, it is just who I am. I also love to cook and not just the BBQ thing. I like to spend time in the kitchen, and love it when the family tells me how good dinner is.Oh my doG! You're me!!!

[ash_is_the_gal]

And for all you girls who say on here you liked to "dance around" and "play with barbies", it came naturally to you... Did anybody ever tell you that was not okay, explicitly or implicitly? I had a barbie once. Barbie drove a car that I thought was awesome but the doll came with it. Of course no one told me I couldn't play with the doll, but it quickly became a funny little anecdote how I "accepted the doll to get the car". Boys who "dance around" and "play with barbies" aren't that normal according to our society's norms. They don't necessarily have to be cast out of society, but they are slightly different...

That reminds me. When I was growing up we were very close to our next door neighboors, a single mom who lived with her child, who was my age, but a boy. He used to come over to my house and play barbies with me all the time, and it was a mixture of gratitude and uneasiness on my part - gratitude that someone was willing to play barbies with me, and uneasieness because, well, he's a boy.

He didn't play right anyway. He was always pulling the heads off my Skipper doll and then pretending they were ghosts. :(

[7thson]

I could use a pair of socks, but I would rather have Lordslay knit em for me.

[7thson]

He was always pulling the heads off my Skipper doll and then pretending they were ghosts. :(Hey I did that a neighbors doll when I was younger, where did you grow up?;)

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
I learned from my parents and older siblings on what the "proper" gender roles were.
A lot of people seem to disagree with what proper is, but I do not think I turned out too badly, at least not in terms of this topic.

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
None that I recall. I was never forced to do or not do anything I did not want to. If one of us were alowwed to do it then we all were, at least in terms of our gender. Age made a difference however, as well it should I think.
That is great that you never felt limited in what you were allowed to do. I wonder what were the main points of the "proper" gender roles, as you understood them. I think different people had different things stressed to them, and am curious about what the big things were.

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
Sure, at least I think so. I am more open about my ability to be empathetic than a lot of men I know are. Not that it is good or bad, it is just who I am. I also love to cook and not just the BBQ thing. I like to spend time in the kitchen, and love it when the family tells me how good dinner is.
:up:


I would like to add:
I know the topic of biology is one that seems to spark emotions one way or another, but it cannot be ignored in terms of gender. It is part of the chemical make up of who were are. I could go into studies of castrated mice, monkeys, even humans where it is proven that the lack of certain things that make up our bodies influences our behaviors, but I am sure there is no need.
In the end though, I do not think biology wholly is responsible either. It is a multi-influencial world we live in and respect is what is most important in my book, no matter who you are physically or otherwise.
Agreed.

P.S. I love the NFL, Women, and Hooters chicken wings...maybe i should have listed women first hmmmmm. Well those uniforms they wear on the field can sure be fun to look at.......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The cheerleaders uniforms .... shhheshhh
:p yeah....

[ash_is_the_gal]

Hey I did that a neighbors doll when I was younger, where did you grow up?;)

Massachusetts. :D But it couldn't have been you...you could be my dad!

[7thson]

Massachusetts. :D But it couldn't have been you...you could be my dad!
Hey is that an insult, I am not that old?:p

The way you converse made me think you were a bit older, but I mean that as a compliment.;)

[ash_is_the_gal]

Hey is that an insult, I am not that old?:p

The way you converse made me think you were a bit older, but I mean that as a compliment.;)

thanks! its not an insult though, I just simply looked at your profile, and you're only three years younger than my mom. :yup: thanks for the compliment though!

Sammy...thanks for this thread, I like it, interesting to read everyones point of views (or lack there of :p ) and I had fun joining in!

[Anonymous Last]

No worries, this is pass-fail. ;)
This makes me curious about one thing: on a scale of 1 to 10, how much would you say you still try not to show emotion? (10= you're a total vault, 1= you cry when you step on ants)
I would have to say a monkey in the middle 5. I don't try to hold back feelings but I know that I do.

Did your father not have any sisters? Yes...he has four sisters, but I think that they were raised to take care of the men in the house with cooking and cleaning. They would eat last.

My mom says that's one of the reasons why she didn't stick around with the man. She was not going to fall down that rabbit hole in Never Land!

[Yoda]

But you didn't merely include biology. You substituted it for behavioral influence and denied that anything or anyone had influenced your perception of what is male.I did absolutely no such thing. I went out of my way several times to say that I think both play a factor, but that I think biology has a greater effect. When you misquoted me earlier, I corrected you, and you ignored the correction (as well as most of the rest of the post). And now you're beginning the loop anew.


Read the answers you wrote to my questions. Some of you guys are clearly very uncomfortable with discussing things that aren't 'hard science'. It's a pity, too, because there's more to life and you can't discuss it on a board where everything has to be footnoted and Googleable. Why can't you simply talk about your perception of how you learned what "male" meant or what "female" meant in the world in which you grew up?I did. My answers might not have been what you were looking for, but they were completely honest. Trying to chalk up any answers which don't align with your expectations to some sort of insecurity or homophobia is a careless, apathetic response.

That said, I definitely prefer discussing things that can be, at least to some degree, proven or disproven. And so far you've seemed vastly more comfortable dabbling in pure theory. Does this make you "uncomfortable" with empirical evidence?

[Yoda]

I think you're right when you're saying that the definitions are more or less universal, if you by universal are talking about the industrial world.

I think we have to seperate two things. In a pre-modern tribe untouched by industrialism I think you will have a hard time deciding who's man and who's woman by just watching the behaviour of the individuals (well, there are a couple of things that can decide this in a second, but apart from that). I think men and women's roles in a society like these are divided for pratical reasons. Women bear children and therefore take care of children and do work where they can take their kids with them. Men hunt and protect the tribe because their muscles are bigger and their bodies are physically stronger. Since they have more muscles it is possible that they will control and lead the tribe, unless they worship females for being able to give birth to life and perhaps in that case women lead the tribe. Men liked big butts and boobs because it signals to them that they want to have sex and have many children to secure the future of the tribe. Women liked big men because they are strong and capable of taking care of the tribe. Today women like guys with a lot of money or a lot of power and influence for the same reasons, they want to secure the future. Men still like women with big butts and big boobs though becuase their position is threatened by a powerful, rich, influential woman, so those women don't turn men on. (Yes, I am generalizing... I am about to make a point, ok...).

Anyway, these things are biological, yes. But this has to do with the human reproduction, not gender roles. Some people here mix up gender roles with where the guy wants to put his pecker. A homosexual man can be very masculine and still being openly homosexual.I think I follow most of what you're saying, but I'm not sure what point you're making. So far I don't think anyone's been mixing up reproduction with gender roles much.


The difference between men and women when it comes to executives positons in corporations and so on has nothing to do with men being biologically better bosses, better go-getters, more aggressive or risk-taking. It has to do with the fact that boys are raised like that while girls are raised to be cheerleaders. It is totally a social construction that reaches through every corner of society from within the family and the school system, to television/media and the political stage.Well, you're really just stating your position here. I could just as easily say the opposite. You say that what differences there are is "totally a social construction." Why? Is there any evidence to support this?

So far you and Peter have made, I'll concede, a good case that it could be true (that is, that it's not illogical or implausible) but no case whatsoever that it actually is true.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I did absolutely no such thing. I went out of my way several times to say that I think both play a factor, but that I think biology has a greater effect. When you misquoted me earlier, I corrected you, and you ignored the correction (as well as most of the rest of the post). And now you're beginning the loop anew.
You absolutely DID do that. I asked three questions about a subject. You answered NO questions and changed the subject.

I did. My answers might not have been what you were looking for, but they were completely honest. Trying to chalk up any answers which don't align with your expectations to some sort of insecurity or homophobia is a careless, apathetic response.
The notion that you grew up without any influence from your family, your church, television, etc is utterly unbelievable, and yet your (eventual)answer speaks of "instinct" as your only guide.

That said, I definitely prefer discussing things that can be, at least to some degree, proven or disproven. And so far you've seemed vastly more comfortable dabbling in pure theory. Does this make you "uncomfortable" with empirical evidence?
:rolleyes: I'm not saying it again. Please refer to the big red letters addressed to the frog.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I would have to say a monkey in the middle 5. I don't try to hold back feelings but I know that I do.

Yes...he has four sisters, but I think that they were raised to take care of the men in the house with cooking and cleaning. They would eat last.

My mom says that's one of the reasons why she didn't stick around with the man. She was not going to fall down that rabbit hole in Never Land!
I b'lieve I've mentioned this before, but your mom rocks. :)

[Yoda]

You absolutely DID do that. I asked three questions about a subject. You answered NO questions and changed the subject.First, I replied to OG-'s post, actually. Had I replied to you, yet still ignored your questions, you might have a point, but that's not what happened.

Second, though you're being coy about it, the questions came with presuppositions. They're clearly loaded questions by their phrasing alone; and I said so at the time, too.

Third, even if you don't care much for my answers, they in no way consist of me ignoring the role of socialization, as you've now said twice. Virtually every post of mine in this thread states the exact opposite as clear as day; by design, I might add.

Fourth: I went ahead and answered the questions anyway, forgoing my fifth-amendment/big-red-text rights.


The notion that you grew up without any influence from your family, your church, television, etc is utterly unbelievable, and yet your (eventual)answer speaks of "instinct" as your only guide.I never said there was no influence from my family, church, television, etc. I said that I couldn't recall any direct examples of it, and that's true. If I were to sit here and scour my memory for an hour, I might come up with a few tiny anecdotes, but nothing half as overt as most of the other responses here. Scoff all you want, it's the truth.


:rolleyes: I'm not saying it again. Please refer to the big red letters addressed to the frog.If you don't want to talk about it, don't talk about; but don't take sides in roundabout ways and then act aghast when someone acts you to elaborate. If you want to get in on it, great. If not, it's rude to expect free license to cheerlead for one side or the other as a non-combatant.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

First, I replied to OG-'s post, actually. Had I replied to you, yet still ignored your questions, you might have a point, but that's not what happened.

Second, though you're being coy about it, the questions came with presuppositions. They're clearly loaded questions by their phrasing alone; and I said so at the time, too.

Third, even if you don't care much for my answers, they in no way consist of me ignoring the role of socialization, as you've now said twice. Virtually every post of mine in this thread states the exact opposite as clear as day; by design, I might add.

Fourth: I went ahead and answered the questions anyway, forgoing my fifth-amendment/big-red-text rights.


I never said there was no influence from my family, church, television, etc. I said that I couldn't recall any direct examples of it, and that's true. If I were to sit here and scour my memory for an hour, I might come up with a few tiny anecdotes, but nothing half as overt as most of the other responses here. Scoff all you want, it's the truth.


If you don't want to talk about it, don't talk about; but don't take sides in roundabout ways and then act aghast when someone acts you to elaborate. If you want to get in on it, great. If not, it's rude to expect free license to cheerlead for one side or the other as a non-combatant.
I am not being "round-about" and I'm not being coy and I don't appreciate your assigning these values to me.
There are not sides here. Everyone has said that both biology and social elements have their influence. Until this post, you have refused to name any of the latter.

[LordSlaytan]

I deleted our argument because I was in the wrong. I felt slighted, though I now believe that was never your intent, and instead of furthering understanding, I turned personal. I’m sorry that I did that because it made me look small, and you deserve better. I know you well enough to know that you are a very good person and would not intentionally attack me in that way. With that said…

I have thought about this more over the last couple of hours and in doing so; believe that I have come to a better understanding of what it is you are looking for. I’ve lumped sexuality along with societal and familial pressures, guidance, and biases. Not only does that not address the question at hand, it skews the coherency of my meaning. I will attempt a more thorough explanation.

Instead of repeating myself through the three different questions, I will address all of them in this testimonial.


Father:

My dad was a masculine personality up to a point. In my earliest years, I could not see any semblance of his ‘other’ side because of my inability to differentiate the subtleties of personality and psychology. What I did see was a man who loved the outdoors, motorcycles, and working on engines. He rarely spoke to me, let alone spent any one on one time with me. So, most everything that I might have gleaned concerning what defines a male and what was appropriate behavior for a young boy, was all self actualized by witnessing him in his daily life.

The things that he did teach me were to be strong, rather than weak. It was unacceptable to cry, show emotion in any way that could be seen as weak, or complain about anything. I don’t have any specific memory of my dad telling me that only girls behave those ways, but the implication was that I had to be above all that. He also was very hard on me. I received regular spankings, which would be worse in their severity depending on how much I cried. The more stoic I became, the less severe the spanking. I had to be hard, calm, and unequivocally capable to handle hard work and its equal in punishment.

My father would buy me masculine toys as I grew. I regularly received green army men, lincoln logs, sporting goods, and eventually motorcycles. I worked regularly in the field during the summer and was given jobs that traditionally were considered too difficult for females. It was also considered normal behavior, by him, that I should enjoy watching sports on television. If I didn’t want to, then I could sense disapproval in the air. I usually watched them. It was unspoken, but understood that boys like sports, especially football and boxing.

Mother:

My mom was a very powerful woman. I think sometimes that is one of the leading contributing factors of why my dad left her. Mom didn’t take crap from anybody, and taught me by example, that I didn’t have to either: unless it was hers or my dads’ crap. My mother showed me a lot of attention, sometimes positive, sometimes not, but I always new that I was her ‘boy’.

Sometimes, while I was very young, she would take me aside and talk to me about what it is that makes a man a man. Things like accountability, responsibility, chivalry, and to always try to be a gentleman towards women and girls. I grew up valuing those lessons, and still believe immensely in their worth. Yet, now I can see that some of those lessons apply to both sexes and aren’t exclusive to only men. I don’t remember her ever needing to teach me that I should play with certain toys, or only like certain television shows or movies. As far as I know, I have always leaned more towards the masculine in all those aspects, but then again, in my household; there weren’t any other opportunities for me to try anything else.

My mom was a lot like my dad when it came to wanting me to be strong, but she also reveled in my sensitivity. I often felt compassion for people who were in duress or pain. She would put me on a high pedestal when I showed signs of being like my father: tough, not easy to cry, emotionless, and willing to take big risks in my play. It could be confusing for me at times because she could just as easily be proud of me as angry if I shed tears for an injured bird. I guess it all had to do with whether she was in good spirits or not, and usually, she was not.

Brothers:

I have two half-brothers (different father) who are eight and nine years older than me respectively. What I saw from them, since they were close to each other in age, was that young men were meant to be aggressive, competitive, combative, and sometimes belligerent in their belief of superiority as males. They also fought physically quite a lot, so I witnessed all the time that males were to be brawlers by their very nature.

Neither one of them would normally spend much time with me because our lives were worlds apart due to age. Yet, there were times that they would. My oldest brother pulled out a lot of skin mags (hardcore) one time and showed me what I should like, and what there is to look forward to when it came to women, as I got older. Neither one of them ever taught me anything on purpose, but I could see by the way they treated the girls they were with that I should be cocky, dominate, and the boss.

Uncle:

My Uncle was an extremely effeminate male. He laughed, played, walked, talked, and in all other aspects, just like a woman. I could tell by the reactions of my father and his friends, that the way my uncle behaved was unacceptable. Men should behave like men, not women. I guess what he taught me the most, was what to avoid if I were to fit in with the dominant species. To be honest, he always was kind of creepy to me as a child, not because he was different, but because of the way he treated me. That’s another story though, so I will just move on.

Grandparents:

Now, when it comes to my grandparents, it is easy to remember the differences between masculinity and femininity. My grandfather performed regular manual labor at the farm, while my grandmother took care of the entire household duties. When decisions were made, it was my grandfather who made them, but he still showed my grandmother the respect of listening to her input, whether he actually wanted to consider it or not. There was a crystal clear line drawn in the sand of what each of their genders was supposed to be. It never had to be spoken, because it was right before my face all the time.

My grandfather was an old school type of man. He was in World War II, lived through the depression, etc. He’s the one who taught me how to ride, shoe, and maintain the horses. He also taught me many things about what it was to be a man; hard working, dependable, serious, and to always keep control of the household and family. I was to always wear the pants. Period. If I deviated from what he considered a boy my age should be doing, I would catch hell. If I grew my hair long, he would call me a little girl in an effort to shame me. It was easy to see what differentiated men and women in his house.

Society:

I lived my adolescence during the 70’s and my teens through the 80’s. What was popular on television when I was a young child were shows like Starsky & Hutch, The Rockford Files, and All in the Family. I suppose I learned what it is to be a rough and tough guy by watching some of these shows, but what from what I can remember now, the show that had the biggest influence on me concerning a positive male role model, came from the television show Good Times.

In that show, the father played by the wonderful John Amos, clearly provided examples of what it was to be a good man. He worked hard every day for his family and was the epitome of masculinity. The way he taught life lessons to the young men in his house always made me sad because I never experienced that type of treatment myself (not like many of us have). I fell in love with him the only way a lonely child can; I wanted him to be my dad. He was everything good that I saw in men.

Also, during the time I grew up, it was excessively anti-gay. It was rarely spoken about at all, and it was rare for any man, or woman for that matter, to admit that they were. That doesn’t have a whole lot to do with this subject because that concerns sexuality, but it also showed the standard mind set at the time for people behaving out of their gender specific roles. It was considered at the time, to be horrible, if a son wanted to dance for his enjoyment. Children were often ridiculed for exposing themselves as different in any way (not that that has changed either).

If you were a boy, it was assumed that you would like toy guns, and if you didn’t, then you were considered ‘different’. I guess there might have been pressure for many a child to fit in, but since I never had the exposure to gentler toys and games, I didn’t feel it. It wasn’t until the abuse from my uncle started that I ever questioned whether I fit in or not.

In time, I saw in movies what men were to be as well, especially with the movie Star Wars. Han Solo acted much the way my brothers did; cocky, self-assured, etc. That may have reinforced what I had already picked up from them.


Anyway…that’s what I can remember form my childhood. As I grew, different situations would come along and my psychology would effect much of who I was to become. Right now, as a full-grown man, I am in touch with my feminine side. And I’m not ashamed at all to admit that. Just like 7thson mentioned earlier, I love to cook for people who appreciate it, and I’m quite good at it. I can also be moved to tears while witnessing human suffering. Sometimes, the silliest things will make me sad and I can cry during a movie…actually, that’s not all that unusual. I care deeply for people and their feelings, I am a hopeless romantic and would be poet, I love children and babies and rarely get irritated when they’re noisy in their happiness or sadness, I love animals and like the word cute, and I have actually hit someone so hard in the face that teeth were imbedded in my knuckles.

If you want me to delve deeper about any of this, Sammy, just ask. I will be more than happy to. Again, sorry for picking on you.

[Anonymous Last]

:rolleyes: I'm not saying it again. Please refer to the big red letters addressed to the frog.

MAN! I knew the frog was to be blamed for all this!

[ash_is_the_gal]

I deleted our argument because I was in the wrong. I felt slighted, though I now believe that was never your intent, and instead of furthering understanding, I turned personal. I’m sorry that I did that because it made me look small, and you deserve better. I know you well enough to know that you are a very good person and would not intentionally attack me in that way.

I am totally, utterly, impressed with thee.

*waits for Sammy's reply*

[Anonymous Last]

I am totally, utterly, impressed with thee.

*waits for Sammy's reply*
If feeling he was wrong and admitting that...that's cool in my book!

But Slay! Did you have to delete it!?

[LordSlaytan]

But Slay! Did you have to delete it!?No...having to wasn't it...wanting to was.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

:: huge, marvellous post ::
Thank you so much for taking the time to think about all that and write it. I especially liked the thing about Han Solo. Harrison Ford seems always to be playing Ultra Man, no? :p
Also the thing about your mom encouraging you to express your emotions (at least some times) made me grin. I think that's a really important part of being a mom... of being a parent, I guess.

As Ash and Anony said, your change of heart/mind is seriously impressive and I truly appreciate that you came back and sorted things out. Really cool of you. :)

[Yoda]

I am not being "round-about" and I'm not being coy and I don't appreciate your assigning these values to me.You are totally unaware that questions like "Who taught you to be the gender that you are?" cannot be asked without presupposing certain things? Like, for example, the presupposition that gender CAN, in fact, be simply taught?


There are not sides here. Everyone has said that both biology and social elements have their influence. Until this post, you have refused to name any of the latter.Not true (you're forgetting the pink dress question). But even if that were so, does it matter? You decided you didn't want to discuss biology. I decided I didn't have much interest in answering your questions, because I didn't accept the premise they were based on. Hence, my decision to reply to Peter's post, rather than yours.

Five pages later, you're insisting in big red letters that you have no interest in the discussion you chose to break into, yet also insisting that I reply to your questions. So which is it? Is it okay to insist that someone answer, or not?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

You are totally unaware that questions like "Who taught you to be the gender that you are?" cannot be asked without presupposing certain things? Like, for example, the presupposition that gender CAN, in fact, be simply taught?


Not true (you're forgetting the pink dress question). But even if that were so, does it matter? You decided you didn't want to discuss biology. I decided I didn't have much interest in answering your questions, because I didn't accept the premise they were based on. Hence, my decision to reply to Peter's post, rather than yours.

Five pages later, you're insisting in big red letters that you have no interest in the discussion you chose to break into, yet also insisting that I reply to your questions. So which is it? Is it okay to insist that someone answer, or not?

Me: If you were making au gratin potatoes, what sort of potatoes would you use?
Yoda: I can't believe you didn't mention the cheese. You HAVE to use cheese in au gratin potatoes!
Me: Yes, you do, but I was wondering about the potatoes.
Yoda: I'd use sharp cheddar.
Me: ..... yeah. Ok. I'm just going to let you talk about cheese, but I wonder if anyone else wants to tell me what potatoes they'd use?
Yoda: Why are you avoiding the cheese issue? You can't NOT use cheese in au gratin potatoes.
Me: I'm just not talking about cheese here. Granted, cheese is also a main ingredient, but I wanted to talk potatoes... why can't we talk potatoes?
Yoda: You always avoid the cheese question! You're a cheese-coward! THIS LACTOSE INTOLERANCE SHALL NOT STAND!!!
Me: dude...

[Yoda]

Me: If you were making au gratin potatoes, what sort of potatoes would you use?
Yoda: I can't believe you didn't mention the cheese. You HAVE to use cheese in au gratin potatoes!
Me: Yes, you do, but I was wondering about the potatoes.
Yoda: I'd use sharp cheddar.
Me: ..... yeah. Ok. I'm just going to let you talk about cheese, but I wonder if anyone else wants to tell me what potatoes they'd use?
Yoda: Why are you avoiding the cheese issue? You can't NOT use cheese in au gratin potatoes.
Me: I'm just not talking about cheese here. Granted, cheese is also a main ingredient, but I wanted to talk potatoes... why can't we talk potatoes?
Yoda: You always avoid the cheese question! You're a cheese-coward! THIS LACTOSE INTOLERANCE SHALL NOT STAND!!!
Me: dude...I appreciate your attempt at levity, but that's not anywhere near representative. As I've pointed out, I didn't even reply to you (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showpost.php?p=244783&postcount=15) originally. You interjected yourself (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showpost.php?p=244804&postcount=21) into my side-discussion about cheese and insisted I answer your potato questions.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I appreciate your attempt at levity, but that's not anywhere near representative. As I've pointed out, I didn't even reply to you (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showpost.php?p=244783&postcount=15) originally. You interjected yourself (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showpost.php?p=244804&postcount=21) into my side-discussion about cheese and insisted I answer your potato questions.
Yeah. That's because I made the thread so I could talk potatoes. I don't think it was all that rude of me to ask you to also talk about what I made the thread about, especially since it was still just getting started.

[Yoda]

Yeah. That's because I made the thread so I could talk potatoes.But you made it clear from the get-go that you had no problem with our side discussion ("please don't let me get in the way of it (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showpost.php?p=244804&postcount=21)"), so long as it didn't interfere with your discussion. If you changed your mind about that later, it was up to you to tell us.


I don't think it was all that rude of me to ask you to also talk about what I made the thread about, especially since it was still just getting started.No, it wasn't that rude. But I do think it's a bit rude to pretend (via potato teleplay, no less) that it was I who interrupted your discussion and insisted you talk about mine, when in reality the exact opposite happened.

[LordSlaytan]

Thank you so much for taking the time to think about all that and write it. I especially liked the thing about Han Solo. Harrison Ford seems always to be playing Ultra Man, no? :p
Also the thing about your mom encouraging you to express your emotions (at least some times) made me grin. I think that's a really important part of being a mom... of being a parent, I guess.

As Ash and Anony said, your change of heart/mind is seriously impressive and I truly appreciate that you came back and sorted things out. Really cool of you. :)That's it?

Hmph...

I like cheese. :indifferent:

[blibblobblib]

Maybe it will help if you know that lots of women (myself among them) find it very attractive when a man doesn't have to "act like a man".
Phew...thats nice to know...

I grew up defecating in a field and wiping my bum with dock leaves. Then when i would return home from a joyful day playing in the ditch, my mother would rub honey on me and roll me in rice paper and put me in the wardorbe to sleep next to my grandmother....God that woman could snore.

So what gender does this make me?? :confused:

[LordSlaytan]

Part dog, part nut, and part attention whore. Welcome home, bruddah!!! :laugh:

[blibblobblib]

Part dog, part nut, and part attention whore. Welcome home, bruddah!!! :laugh:
I'd agree with that...but the measurements are all wrong... ;)

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Phew...thats nice to know...

I grew up defecating in a field and wiping my bum with dock leaves. Then when i would return home from a joyful day playing in the ditch, my mother would rub honey on me and roll me in rice paper and put me in the wardorbe to sleep next to my grandmother....God that woman could snore.

So what gender does this make me?? :confused:
Rice paper = boys
seaweed wrap = girls

[SamsoniteDelilah]

That's it?

Hmph...

I like cheese. :indifferent:
I'm afraid it is. I really don't have an agenda or a point to prove, I just wanted to hear what people think about this.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

But you made it clear from the get-go that you had no problem with our side discussion ("please don't let me get in the way of it (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showpost.php?p=244804&postcount=21)"), so long as it didn't interfere with your discussion. If you changed your mind about that later, it was up to you to tell us.


No, it wasn't that rude. But I do think it's a bit rude to pretend (via potato teleplay, no less) that it was I who interrupted your discussion and insisted you talk about mine, when in reality the exact opposite happened.
I didn't insist. I invited. You then made it clear it wasn't a topic you wanted to delve into and we drpped it until you brought it back up and again accused me of failing to defend "my argument", despite my repeatedly saying I didn't (and don't) have one.

[blibblobblib]

Has this thread turned into an argument about a debate about gender? Im even more confused than before...

[Piddzilla]

I think I follow most of what you're saying, but I'm not sure what point you're making. So far I don't think anyone's been mixing up reproduction with gender roles much.


Well, you're really just stating your position here. I could just as easily say the opposite. You say that what differences there are is "totally a social construction." Why? Is there any evidence to support this?

So far you and Peter have made, I'll concede, a good case that it could be true (that is, that it's not illogical or implausible) but no case whatsoever that it actually is true.

Well I guess I'm just gonna sit back and wait for you to prove me wrong then....

[Piddzilla]

Brian... A fine post about you. I like your mom and I like you.

Your post made me think about my life and my parents and stuff....

[chicagofrog]

ok, we don't have an argument. we don't have an argument. we don't have an argument.

[Yoda]

I didn't insist. I invited. You then made it clear it wasn't a topic you wanted to delve into and we drpped it until you brought it back up and again accused me of failing to defend "my argument", despite my repeatedly saying I didn't (and don't) have one.I guess I don't find "you didn't answer my questions" to be particularly "inviting." Regardless of whether or not you agree, you're still not addressing the fact that you're trying to label me as interrupting you, when in reality the reverse is true. It's a little soon for revisionist history.

As for you not having an argument; you certainly didn't make one explicitly, but I felt that you articulated it all the same. I'm not in your head, though, so I'm willing to take your word for it if you say you were not attempting to take sides.

[Yoda]

Well I guess I'm just gonna sit back and wait for you to prove me wrong then....Why? I did not state that biology was the sole cause of gender differences. You, however, stated that the differences are "totally a social construction." You're making the absolute claim here. So, I'm asking: what evidence do you have to support that statement? Is there any? If not, how do you justify taking such a strong stance?

I don't see how you can simply shift the burden of proof to me, for two reasons: first, I have not claimed that the differences are "not at all a social construction." And second, biological and mental differences between the sexes have been empirically proven, while the effects of socialization remain largely speculative.

Oh, and I asked you first, too. :p

[Yoda]

ok, we don't have an argument. we don't have an argument. we don't have an argument.He don't know me very well, do he?

[Anonymous Last]

He don't know me very well, do he?
You carry a BIG stick?

[LordSlaytan]

Don't triple post, Yoda.

You've been warned. ;)

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I guess I don't find "you didn't answer my questions" to be particularly "inviting." Regardless of whether or not you agree, you're still not addressing the fact that you're trying to label me as interrupting you, when in reality the reverse is true. It's a little soon for revisionist history.
Who started the thread? Me? I think I did. I think the conversation was already underway when you started at Post #15. I think totally changing the subject of a thread when it's just barely gotten started is rude. I think making accusatory statements about someone whose motives you clearly don't understand is also rude. I think at this point that you are a jerk. Your behaviour in this thread has really been off the beam. :mad:

As for you not having an argument; you certainly didn't make one explicitly, but I felt that you articulated it all the same. I'm not in your head, though, so I'm willing to take your word for it if you say you were not attempting to take sides.
Thanks.

[Yoda]

Who started the thread? Me? I think I did. I think the conversation was already underway when you started at Post #15. I think totally changing the subject of a thread when it's just barely gotten started is rude.Bringing up biology -- which everyone acknowledges is a part of this issue -- isn't anywhere near "totally changing the subject." Whether or not it's integral to the subject is debatable, but the idea that it's wholly apart from it is absurd.

Besides (and as I've already pointed out), you made it clear early on you had no problem with a second line of discussion branching off:

"This debate is all well and good and please don't let me get in the way of it" (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showpost.php?p=244804&postcount=21)
"That's what the conversation has morphed into, and that's fine" (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showpost.php?p=244833&postcount=26)
The idea that your thread was hijacked doesn't hold water. You didn't think so at the time and a quick perusing of the posts shows that people kept answering your questions in spite of the other line of discussion.

I think making accusatory statements about someone whose motives you clearly don't understand is also rude. I think at this point that you are a jerk. Your behaviour in this thread has really been off the beam. :mad:I can't speak to your motives; just your words. And so far, they've been inconsistent and, in describing my role in this discussion, both inaccurate and unfair. So I'm asking for explanations. I don't think that's rude.

I'd also point out that in trying to explain away unsatisfactory answers with insecurity and homophobia and the like, you clearly engaged in "making accusatory statements about someone whose motives you clearly don't understand."

[LordSlaytan]

It's obvious that you two are in love with each other.

[Anonymous Last]

No one brought up the gender confused rapist yet!?


Just checking.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I'm done.
Intellectual DISCUSSION is practically impossible in the face of Yoda's overweening need to debate. Screw it.

[Yoda]

I'm done.
Intellectual DISCUSSION is practically impossible in the face of Yoda's overweening need to debate. Screw it.It's also impossible in the face of contradictory statements and accusations. My argumentativeness (which I don't deny) doesn't even come into it, because there's nothing belligerent or unreasonable about asking for consistency.

[Piddzilla]

Why? I did not state that biology was the sole cause of gender differences. You, however, stated that the differences are "totally a social construction." You're making the absolute claim here. So, I'm asking: what evidence do you have to support that statement? Is there any? If not, how do you justify taking such a strong stance?

I don't see how you can simply shift the burden of proof to me, for two reasons: first, I have not claimed that the differences are "not at all a social construction." And second, biological and mental differences between the sexes have been empirically proven, while the effects of socialization remain largely speculative.

Oh, and I asked you first, too. :p

Maybe I should have included a little ;) ...

It's just that I know how this will end up, Chris. You say that you're not convinced and then I try harder to put forward my arguments and you say you're still not convinced and just keep on asking me questions and we'll be moving away from the key issue and end up picking on the other one's style of debating. I just don't feel like it... Oh, and watching you and Sammy going at it, I am absolutely certain I did the right thing... I think I have explained how socialisation is such a massive influence on gender roles and still I've said nothing compared to the experts.

And socialisation is not largely speculative, on the contrary, it's been empirically proven ever since Emile Dukrheim who did BIG sociological studies based on empirical material and statistics. All great sociologists can prove their theories empirically or they wouldn't be great sociologists.

I would like to recommend a reading of G.H. Mead's theories, later named the theory of symbolical interactionism by Blumer, on things like The Significant Other and The Generalized Other. He explained very elegantly how the human being is created in the interaction with other people through symbols and gestures. It's by seeing yourself through the eyes of "the other one" that you becomes somebody. Therefore "the other one's" views of you and expectations of how you will behave and what you will say and do are crucial for how you act in every single situation.

[Yoda]

Maybe I should have included a little ;) ...

It's just that I know how this will end up, Chris. You say that you're not convinced and then I try harder to put forward my arguments and you say you're still not convinced and just keep on asking me questions and we'll be moving away from the key issue and end up picking on the other one's style of debating. I just don't feel like it... Oh, and watching you and Sammy going at it, I am absolutely certain I did the right thing... I think I have explained how socialisation is such a massive influence on gender roles and still I've said nothing compared to the experts.

And socialisation is not largely speculative, on the contrary, it's been empirically proven ever since Emile Dukrheim who did BIG sociological studies based on empirical material and statistics. All great sociologists can prove their theories empirically or they wouldn't be great sociologists.

I would like to recommend a reading of G.H. Mead's theories, later named the theory of symbolical interactionism by Blumer, on things like The Significant Other and The Generalized Other. He explained very elegantly how the human being is created in the interaction with other people through symbols and gestures. It's by seeing yourself through the eyes of "the other one" that you becomes somebody. Therefore "the other one's" views of you and expectations of how you will behave and what you will say and do are crucial for how you act in every single situation.I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's a matter of you putting forth arguments and me simply remaining unconvinced. We haven't really gotten into any arguments yet; so far you've simply been explaining the theory behind socialization. That's different from presenting evidence that it's actually happening. I'm sure I sound a little convoluted, but do you see what I mean?

As for the studies you mention; I'd be glad to look into them, but are you claiming that they support your statement that gender roles are "totally a social construction," rather than the idea that socialization merely plays a role? Because it's the former that I'm skeptical of.

[Piddzilla]

I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's a matter of you putting forth arguments and me simply remaining unconvinced. We haven't really gotten into any arguments yet; so far you've simply been explaining the theory behind socialization. That's different from presenting evidence that it's actually happening. I'm sure I sound a little convoluted, but do you see what I mean?

As for the studies you mention; I'd be glad to look into them, but are you claiming that they support your statement that gender roles are "totally a social construction," rather than the idea that socialization merely plays a role? Because it's the former that I'm skeptical of.

I never said biology doesn't play a part. There are biological differences between the sexes but those differences don't motivate nor explain the differences in influence and power between the sexes in this age. Theories of socialisation do.

Evidence for "socialisation" actually happening... hmmm... let's see...

Horsebackriding. Macho or for girls and sissies?

[chicagofrog]

Horsebackriding. Macho or for girls and sissies?

anyway, for humans, not frogs........ :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Anonymous Last]

Horsebackriding. Macho or for girls and sissies?
I think there is a macho form of side saddle ride...only for macho midgets!

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I think there is a macho form of side saddle ride...only for macho midgets!
Something like this?
http://www.slowlane.net/travel/photos/Warwick/Trick_Riding.sized.jpg

[Anonymous Last]

Only thing missing was the midget!


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/anonymousblast/SafetyDance.jpg


'Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
well they're no friend of mine

[SamsoniteDelilah]

It's hard for me to find midgets. I'm 5'8", after all.
I do, however, safety dance.

[Anonymous Last]

It's hard for me to find midgets. I'm 5'8", after all.
I do, however, safety dance.
Bah! Snow White was a spicy little ticket and she found seven of them and sized up the apple!

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Snow White went to NYC?

[Anonymous Last]

That's a different kind of snow white.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Ah. I didn't see that sequel.

[nebbit]

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
My Mother:yup:

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
Always be a lady, Always have clean and neat underwear in case you are in an accident, Always wear makeup but not too much, Don't dress like a tart, Always make sure your hair is nice, Never use foul language, Only have sex with someone you love,............that certainly stopprd me from being a Tom Boy.
:yup:

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
I Kissed a girl once, and liked it. :kiss:

[OG-]

Woah, kind of forgot about this thread during my spring break, but I just read something I felt like sharing/opening to discussion. It is an excerpt from an essay written by a woman named Audre Lorde in 1979:

"For women, the need and desire to nurture each other is not pathological but redemptive, and it is within that knowledge that our real power is rediscovered. It is this real connection which is so feared by a patriarchal world. Only within a patriarchal structure is maternity the only social power open to women."

Now when I first read this I thought to myself, "Sure, that was true in 1979.", but after writing a piece in response to the rest of her essay (which is actually about racism of the feminist movement) I've come to believe that what Lorde says stands true in 2005.

America is still very, very much so a patriarchal society. The family unit may be going through a deconstruction towards a matriarchal structure, but society as a whole still has man as it's ruling hand.

But is this a bad thing? I propose that question to the women on this board. Well, firstly, do you believe your only social power in a patriarchal society is that of maternity? If so, do you honestly have a problem with this?

This isn't one of my knocks at females, though that last question may seem like one implying a superior stance. But would you like to give up your trump card that is maternity for a 50/50 share in the patriarchy? Or do you think that the power of womanhood is power enough?

I have my own thoughts on the matter, but before I go on I'm just curious as to a woman's thoughts on the issue...

[SamsoniteDelilah]

...But is this (patriarchal rule) a bad thing? I propose that question to the women on this board. Well, firstly, do you believe your only social power in a patriarchal society is that of maternity? If so, do you honestly have a problem with this?

This isn't one of my knocks at females, though that last question may seem like one implying a superior stance. But would you like to give up your trump card that is maternity for a 50/50 share in the patriarchy? Or do you think that the power of womanhood is power enough?...
Well, I have some thoughts on this....
Is patriachal rule a bad thing? Yes. The sexes are equal. We're both vital the the furthering of humanity and we both have great things to offer. Neither side needs to be dominant, and in healthy relationships, dominance is dynamic. It should be the same in our social structure, for the best results for all.

RE: only social power, maternity? Of course not. Women have empathy, have equality, have a greater capacity (as a rule) for compassion and value a broader spectrum of qualities in others. Women tend to include as many as possible and tailor duties to the abilities of whoever is present. Women have a lot of good qualities (speaking in trends here.. god knows there are women who suck and men who have all the qualities I'm mentioning here) besides the ability to grow babies.

As for giving up the "trump card of maternity", until men can have childrn without us, we'll hold that card. And until women can have babies without men, same thing. There's more to life than having babies though, and even at that, men and women are both pretty necessary for most of us.

[nebbit]

Well, firstly, do you believe your only social power in a patriarchal society is that of maternity? ...

NO, :rolleyes: ............................ anyway why should society be run by one sex or the other, both sexes consist of good and bad, weak and strong, I know real equality will happen one day, I think the majority of young people today see the sexes as equal, I have a lot of faith in young men and woman, to change "patriarchal Society" to "Human Society" :cool: ummmm Errrrrrrr you know what I mean :rolleyes:

[chicagofrog]

Well, I have some thoughts on this....
Is patriachal rule a bad thing? Yes.

yeah, right, and you never see things black and white, right?
oh, the bad man defending patriarchat!! :eek:
i defend nothing, or what i defend is diversity, and i defend matriarchat by the Iroquoians, it was, it is, their identity as people. just like patriarchat was for the Indoeuropeans. Calling one or the other just that, "bad", is over-simple. same thing when people wanna impose democracy on others as if it was the only existing system, or the best (just as dumb :mad: a way of thinking...) for EVERYone, each and every people on earth!! all that is called ethnocentrism. or is it gynecocentrism now?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

yeah, right, and you never see things black and white, right?
oh, the bad man defending patriarchat!! :eek:
i defend nothing, or what i defend is diversity, and i defend matriarchat by the Iroquoians, it was, it is, their identity as people. just like patriarchat was for the Indoeuropeans. Calling one or the other just that, "bad", is over-simple. same thing when people wanna impose democracy on others as if it was the only existing system, or the best (just as dumb :mad: a way of thinking...) for EVERYone, each and every people on earth!! all that is called ethnocentrism. or is it gynecocentrism now?
Did you really fail to read more than 14 words into my response?
Is there some medication you've recently gone off of?
The very next thing I said was that the sexes are equal.

[chicagofrog]

yeah, i can read, and i can ask you exactly the same: did you read more than 14 words of what i wrote? (in yr description of female qualities, by the way, you forgot research for security=conservatism, meaning progress wouldn't have been possible without the inherent violence/competition/etc. in men), is there some medication you are presently on? (to go down to your level of answering and arguing... whoever disagrees with yr opinions 1) cannot read 2) is aggressive 3) stopped taking his medication 4) thinks with his penis etc. etc. etc... how smart!
and equality doesn't exist. only differences that should be respected. i even to say such banalities here... but they're better than untruths like a mythical non existing equality you are talking about. and of course we could spend our whole life defining this and that word, for example that "equality" concept...
blah.

[blibblobblib]

Oh sex, gender bla bla bla, Were all made of the same stuff, Willies, boobies, vaginas, potato, Potata...

[blibblobblib]

Soory for my disregard of you discussion, i will add my own thoughts eventually, but currently i have just handed in a very hard essay on post modernism and im drunk. Huzzah.

[Anonymous Last]

Oh sex, gender bla bla bla, Were all made of the same stuff, Willies, boobies, vaginas, potato, Potata...
I like to mash em'!

[Garrett]

im drunk.
Clearly.

[7thson]

Originally Posted by blibblobblib
Oh sex, gender bla bla bla, Were all made of the same stuff, Willies, boobies, vaginas, potato, Potata...



I like to mash em'!
OWWWW

[Anonymous Last]

OWWWW
Do the hokey pokey...that's what it's all about!

[SamsoniteDelilah]

yeah, i can read, and i can ask you exactly the same: did you read more than 14 words of what i wrote? (in yr description of female qualities, by the way, you forgot research for security=conservatism, meaning progress wouldn't have been possible without the inherent violence/competition/etc. in men),
I never said otherwise. In fact, I did not address this topic at all. You are reading things into what is being said and going off on my for what you imagine is there, but it isn't.

is there some medication you are presently on? (to go down to your level of answering and arguing... whoever disagrees with yr opinions 1) cannot read
I didn't say you can't. I suggested that you didn't.

2) is aggressive
You've been trying to jam words into my mouth through this entire thread and then labeling these misapplied notions as "dumb", "banal", etc. I'd call that pretty aggressive.

3) stopped taking his medication
You're still acting like you need to at least cut down on salt. Your blood pressure has got to be off the charts.

4) thinks with his penis etc. etc. etc... how smart!
I have NEVER addressed your penis or anything to DO with you penis, nor WILL I, no matter how many times you mention it.

and equality doesn't exist. only differences that should be respected. i even to say such banalities here... but they're better than untruths like a mythical non existing equality you are talking about. and of course we could spend our whole life defining this and that word, for example that "equality" concept...
blah.
You say you support patriarchy here and matriachy there, but you don't see the sexes as equal? In which language does that make sense?

You keep addressing these angry posts at me and accusing me of not addressing your points. I have told you time and again (and again and again) that I'm not interested in debating this with you. You are obviously very upset at SOMEONE ELSE for accusing you of "thinking with your penis" and are transferring this to me. I am not interested in acting as stand-in for whoever it is you've had a problem with, and since you are still keeping this irrational nonsense up, I am putting you on ignore. I'm sorry to do this, as I have enjoyed talking with you, but you are seriously starting to freak me out.

[OG-]

http://www.malepregnancy.com/

Personally I don't buy it, but ya never know...

If it is true though, shakes things up a bit...

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I don't buy it either. It's an interesting idea, though.

[LordSlaytan]

If that was real...it would trump Iraq as far as news worthiness.

[nebbit]

Go Mr lee :laugh:

[blibblobblib]

Sorry about my last post. I got over-excited.

[Aniko]

No need to worry about your last post blib. It was fine. :)
Besides, we've all posted in excitment before. I've posted while having a few too many at happy hour also.

Who taught you to be the gender that you are?
My Mother:yup:

What were the 'requirements' to be your gender?
Always be a lady, Always have clean and neat underwear in case you are in an accident, Always wear makeup but not too much, Don't dress like a tart, Always make sure your hair is nice, Never use foul language, Only have sex with someone you love,............that certainly stopprd me from being a Tom Boy.
:yup:

We are very similar Nebbs! To this day I can't go into the grocery store without having at least a little lipstick or mascara on. And, I find myself fussing with my daughter's hair the same way my mom use to fuss with mine...although I don't make her sleep in those hard curlers my mom made me wear. :p


Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
Pretending to be interested in football and baseball stats that my husband tells me. Alot of smiling, nodding and even asking questions to further his excitment about telling me something I really have no interest in. And, he does the same for me when I talk about figure skating. :p

[Piddzilla]

Did you ever cross the line and do things that indicate an alliance with another gender?
Pretending to be interested in football and baseball stats that my husband tells me. Alot of smiling, nodding and even asking questions to further my his excited about telling me something I really have no interest in. And, he does the same for me when I talk about figure skating. :p

Figure skating is cool... Me and a buddy were sitting home bored in front of the tv set zapping one night and kind of as a joke started to watch figure skating. After fifteen minutes we were like spellbound. It was some kind of world championships final or something and it was incredibly exciting and thrilling...

[Aniko]

Figure skating is cool... Me and a buddy were sitting home bored in front of the tv set zapping one night and kind of as a joke started to watch figure skating. After fifteen minutes we were like spellbound. It was some kind of world championships final or something and it was incredibly exciting and thrilling...

You and your buddy are so cool Piddy :) ....and it is exciting. Maybe I made too much of a generality with that. I guess I've always thought of figure skating as more of a girl interest since alot of women I know love it and most of their husbands aren't that interested. My husband will watch a little bit of the men's...but he won't stay up until midnight to finish watching a champioship like I will.

[Piddzilla]

I would say that what you, Annie, described before, you pretending to be interested, is not you going over the line to the men's world. I think instead that is typically for the female gender role to act interested in what men are saying and doing. At the same time, men are not expected to be interested in things like figure skating, or not even expected to pretend to be interested. But I think these things are walls that are pretty easy to tear down. Figure skating is a sport that requires enormous amounts of artistic as well as athletic talent, skills and training. It looks like it's impossible and it can be really spectacular. If you are a fan of all kinds of sports, you will love figure skating as well (personally I love the failures as much as the winners... muuahahaha..). Now, what I am curious about, is whether women and men like it for the same reasons. There is an element of dance and ballet in it but at the same time the jumps would make a skateboarder swim in cold sweat. And no helmets here.... What do you think?

[blibblobblib]

Figure skating is cool... Me and a buddy were sitting home bored in front of the tv set zapping one night and kind of as a joke started to watch figure skating. After fifteen minutes we were like spellbound. It was some kind of world championships final or something and it was incredibly exciting and thrilling...
Oh dear....

:nope:

[Piddzilla]

Oh dear....

:nope:

Go watch Panic Room or something... :rolleyes:

[nebbit]

I think instead that is typically for the female gender role to act interested in what men are saying and doing. At the same time, men are not expected to be interested in things like figure skating, or not even expected to pretend to be interested.

:yup:

[blibblobblib]

Go watch Panic Room or something... :rolleyes:
I will...Was thinking of something good to watch anyway :)

Enjoy your...*snigger*...Figure..*snigger*...skating.

[7thson]

If the female skaters were -minus the panties, I would watch...heh sry guess I am male.

[nebbit]

If the female skaters were -minus the panties, I would watch...heh sry guess I am male.

Ummmmm :yup:

[LordSlaytan]

No need to worry about your last post blib. It was fine. :)
Besides, we've all posted in excitment before. I've posted while having a few too many at happy hour also. Man, I've really embarrassed myself back in the day when I drank and posted. :laugh:

We are very similar Nebbs! To this day I can't go into the grocery store without having at least a little lipstick or mascara on. And, I find myself fussing with my daughter's hair the same way my mom use to fuss with mine...although I don't make her sleep in those hard curlers my mom made me wear. :pOMG! You're girly!

Pretending to be interested in football and baseball stats that my husband tells me. Alot of smiling, nodding and even asking questions to further his excitment about telling me something I really have no interest in. And, he does the same for me when I talk about figure skating. :pI think the question is more about what you did as a child that may have been more male than female.

[nebbit]

I think the question is more about what you did as a child that may have been more male than female.

Oh I see now, When i was a child I would stand up to wee, boy what a mess. http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie132/00001935.gif

[7thson]

Oh I see now, When i was a child I would stand up to wee, boy what a mess. http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie132/00001935.gif
:laugh:

[LordSlaytan]

Oh I see now, When i was a child I would stand up to wee, boy what a mess. http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie132/00001935.gif:laugh: It's okay when you're wearing diapers, silly girl.

[nebbit]

:laugh: It's okay when you're wearing diapers, silly girl.

:dizzy:

[Tacitus]

Oh I see now, When i was a child I would stand up to wee, boy what a mess. http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie132/00001935.gif

I can remember my little sis doing that when I was 5 or 6. :D

...though I can also remember stading next to my Da at a urinal around that time and thinking I had a lot of growing up to do....

[Piddzilla]

I will...Was thinking of something good to watch anyway :)

Enjoy your...*snigger*...Figure..*snigger*...skating.

Thanks, I will! Snigger all you want... I like watching guys skating to the tones of "The Nutcracker"... eh... hmmmm... :eek:


Oh I see now, When i was a child I would stand up to wee, boy what a mess. http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie132/00001935.gif

Aaah, I sit down and pee now and then! Does that count, Sammy?

What? It's comfortable!!!

[blibblobblib]

Thanks, I will! Snigger all you want... I like watching guys skating to the tones of "The Nutcracker"... eh... hmmmm... :eek:
So many images....
Aaah, I sit down and pee now and then! Does that count, Sammy?

What? It's comfortable!!!So do! It really is comfortable! But i think i also do it out of laziness...and the girls in my house obviously dont like little wee drips all over the floor, ceiling and walls when i do it standing up.

[nebbit]

the girls in my house obviously dont like little wee drips all over the floor, ceiling and walls when i do it standing up.

:yup:

[Piddzilla]

So many images....
So do! It really is comfortable! But i think i also do it out of laziness...and the girls in my house obviously dont like little wee drips all over the floor, ceiling and walls when i do it standing up.

Hmmmm... Your toilet must be a very very small hole... Precision, man. Precision!

[chicagofrog]

You're still acting like you need to at least cut down on salt.

what about kimchi?

I have NEVER addressed your penis or anything to DO with you penis, nor WILL I, no matter how many times you mention it.

not mine, but you forget yr own messages however. you did mention that part first, not me. selective memory isn't it?

You say you support patriarchy here and matriachy there, but you don't see the sexes as equal? In which language does that make sense?

in more than one. everything is linked to interpretation. there's no definitive dictionary as far as i'm concerned.

that I'm not interested in debating this with you

you throw something at someone and when you get it back, you accuse him of wanting to argue. difference is, i don't stop, cuz i think people can talk.

I am not interested in acting as stand-in for whoever it is you've had a problem with

i don't invent the fact that you react the same way, say the same things.

I am putting you on ignore

one more thing in common.

freak me out

of course, everybody knows i'm the dangerous froggy killer lurking at night... a funny picture though.

[blibblobblib]

Hmmmm... Your toilet must be a very very small hole...No its actually a massive suite with a bedai...beeday...you know that small sink on the floor for washing your bum with.

Im just a bad aim...plus its fun seeing how high i can get it.

[Anonymous Last]

No its actually a massive suite with a bedai...beeday...you know that small sink on the floor for washing your bum with.

Im just a bad aim...plus its fun seeing how high i can get it.
Hey Freckles! I had to know... your house is simply crawling with these things... *sweet*

[Piddzilla]

No its actually a massive suite with a bedai...beeday...you know that small sink on the floor for washing your bum with.

Im just a bad aim...plus its fun seeing how high i can get it.

When's the last time you washed in the... bidé(?)? Can't you pee in the bathtub? You can wash your bum there as well.

[blibblobblib]

Hey Freckles! I had to know... your house is simply crawling with these things... *sweet*What freckles? Speckles of poo? or beeday's?
When's the last time you washed in the... bidé(?)? Can't you pee in the bathtub? You can wash your bum there as well.Pee in the bathtub? GOD you Swedes are sick. I do it in the shower.

I just like the fact that a bidé(as you would put it, trying to sound all posh and french and stuff) is for your bum and your bum only, who needs bog roll? i spose you could break the rules and pee in it or wash your feet in it but thats just wrong.

[Anonymous Last]

http://www.apol.net/dightonrock/Suite_bide-1.jpg


What freckles? I'm Lost...

[SamsoniteDelilah]

http://www.apol.net/dightonrock/Suite_bide-1.jpg


I'm Lost...
Oh, the AV! I thought you meant blibby needed a shower, too.

I love figure skating for the pretty costumes, the dance elements (I studied dance though, so I know that stuff ain't easy), and the strength and precision in the athleticism. One of the most impressive things I have ever seen was Gordieva and Grinkov (please pardon the spelling), who skated in perfect synchronicity and he could dead lift her over his head like she was air. They were spellbinding.

I think I tried peeing standing up, too. I learned to settle for doing it outdoors on hiking trips - though I don't stand up then, either! My main line-crossing has been in being very direct in conversation, in thinking about sex more than girls are supposed to admit to (:rolleyes:), in wearing mens clothes for awhile, and a mild fascination with weapons and blowing things up.

[nebbit]

blowing things up.

Like what ;)

[SamsoniteDelilah]

:rotfl:
:blush:
I didn't mean anything involving an inflation tube...
I've done pyrotechnics for theater stuff.

[blibblobblib]

http://www.apol.net/dightonrock/Suite_bide-1.jpgOh my. I would have NO idea where to do my business in that bathroom. I'd probably give all three a go...maybe even at the same time.

[Piddzilla]

What freckles? Speckles of poo? or beeday's?
Pee in the bathtub? GOD you Swedes are sick. I do it in the shower.

I just like the fact that a bidé(as you would put it, trying to sound all posh and french and stuff) is for your bum and your bum only, who needs bog roll? i spose you could break the rules and pee in it or wash your feet in it but thats just wrong.

Wash your feet in pee? How ancient Rome... Or was that wine?

Anyway...

You know what I find sexist? In the ladies room they have like six toilet seats with doors and all, nice little booths. Then in the men's room we have one toilet covered in vomit and then one long stinking urinal. Is it a law of nature or gender roles telling us that men enjoy peeing in groups?? I hate it!!!

[LordSlaytan]

I like to pee on ducks. They quack funny.

This is the level of discourse this thread has dropped to, isn't it? ;)

[blibblobblib]

This is the level of discourse this thread has dropped to, isn't it? ;)
Well you lot started arguing and fighting with one another so i thought i would chime in and start to discuss things properly in a more civilised manner. :D
Wash your feet in pee? How ancient Rome... Or was that wine?People in Ancient Rome peed Wine? God they were lucky.You know what I find sexist? In the ladies room they have like six toilet seats with doors and all, nice little booths. Then in the men's room we have one toilet covered in vomit and then one long stinking urinal. Is it a law of nature or gender roles telling us that men enjoy peeing in groups?? I hate it!!!
I agree! This really annoys me. Whenever i go out or we are all donw the pub and i need to go urinise, most bars and pubs that i go to only have about one or two cubicles for us blokes to go in, or its the trough...and if im honest i find it hard to pee in the trough, i just stand there with my little man (figure of speech people, his actually a very well built man) in my hand and he gets stage fright and the poeple next me to me probably think i just get him out for fun. I want pleasant toilet booths! Ones that smell of perfume and contain no vomit/poo/snot/cigarettes or puddles and puddles of wee!

However, i think this may be more about the type of men that use the cubicles, the type of bars and pubs i go to and the male urge to urinate and vomit and poo over everything.

Looks like i'm stuck with taking my catheter out most nights i guess :(

[chicagofrog]

I want pleasant toilet booths! Ones that smell of perfume and contain no vomit/poo/snot/cigarettes or puddles and puddles of wee!

However, i think this may be more about the type of men that use the cubicles, the type of bars and pubs i go to and the male urge to urinate and vomit and poo over everything.


what, one is allowed to go to the gents and NOT vomit???
:rolleyes: :eek:
thanx for letting me know!! ;) :D

[blibblobblib]

what, one is allowed to go to the gents and NOT vomit???It is frowned upon yes.