The Shining -- Hidden Meanings

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I read that Kubrick always tries to say something about mankind in his movies and that The Shining isn’t really about the murders at the Overlook Hotel as much as it is about the genocide that took place against Native Americans… I know that in the film, we are told the hotel was built on Indian Burial Grounds and that numerous Indians lost their lives trying to stop the building and all throughout the movie there is Native American artwork… on the walls, floors, and even a couple of cans of Calumet baking powder… but from what I understand, there are other clues scattered through the movie -- the scene with the blood rushing out of the elevators is supposed to represent the blood America was built upon… and the picture of the ballroom scene was dated the 4th of July, a date that holds a very different meaning to Native Americans then it does to the average American… and in the maze when Danny is trying to escape his father, he resorts to an old Indian trick of backtracking to escape… I know a lot of you on here study film and know a lot more about this then I do so I would really like to hear your thoughts on this…
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AiSv Nv wa do hi ya do...
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Only for the weak
That's very interesting to think about. I would be impressed if it were true.
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I am having a nervous breakdance
You told me about this one time before and I had never heard anything about it before you told me.

Have you heard or read this from Kubrick's mouth, so to speak? I think it sounds believable and interesteing too. I don't think you have to be majoring in film studies to discuss this on a "deeper" level. I will try and rewatch it soon and look for those details that you mentioned. I also think this theory fits into the role that I think that the black man has in the story. Perhaps he has a connection to the native american spirits inhabiting the hotel because of that he as a slave ancestor also is part of the bloody history that America is built upon.
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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

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They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.



Originally Posted by Fox
Cait, is this where you read it?
http://www.drummerman.net/shining/essays.html
The first time I read anything about this was in a few of the reviews but I found that site today when I was reading messages on the IMDb... so now I am really curious to know if there is anything to it...



Originally Posted by Piddzilla
Have you heard or read this from Kubrick's mouth, so to speak?
I’ve checked out several web sites about Kubrick (including a few Fox sent me -- Thanks again Fox )… but apparently Kubrick neither admitted nor denied it…



Made for me by lovely Lisa
Originally Posted by Caitlyn
the picture of the ballroom scene was dated the 4th of July, a date that holds a very different meaning to Native Americans then it does to the average American…
That is the same as January 26th here in Australia (Australia Day) but my Aboriginal friends call it invasion day.

I found the referance to Native Americans in the film fascinating, I just bought the DVD and when i watch it, it will make it more interesting.
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You have Aboriginal friends that call Australia Day 'Invasion Day'?
Most of my Aboriginal friends, one in particular, has just moved on with life.

She's much more interested in the future.
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I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally Posted by The Silver Bullet
You have Aboriginal friends that call Australia Day 'Invasion Day'?
Most of my Aboriginal friends, one in particular, has just moved on with life.

She's much more interested in the future.
And the reason to why you celebrate Australia Day is?



Made for me by lovely Lisa
Originally Posted by The Silver Bullet
You have Aboriginal friends that call Australia Day 'Invasion Day'?
Most of my Aboriginal friends, one in particular, has just moved on with life.

She's much more interested in the future.
Don't think that my friends are bitter or twisted, they do live life, and are living in the here and now, but lets face it they were invaded, by the poms, just to let you know both my parents and brother are pommies, in case you think I am being politicly incorrect.

Piddz, Australia Day is the day Australia was discovered, at least by the white man.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally Posted by nebbit
Don't think that my friends are bitter or twisted, they do live life, and are living in the here and now, but lets face it they were invaded, by the poms, just to let you know both my parents and brother are pommies, in case you think I am being politicly incorrect.

Piddz, Australia Day is the day Australia was discovered, at least by the white man.
Yes. A historical event, so to speak. It just seems strange to me that SB thinks it is allright to clelebrate one historical event but at the same time accuses an ethnic group of living in the past. Especially since it is probably their present situation that has led them to rename the day to an according to them more suitable name.



Made for me by lovely Lisa
Originally Posted by Piddzilla
Yes. A historical event, so to speak. It just seems strange to me that SB thinks it is allright to clelebrate one historical event but at the same time accuses an ethnic group of living in the past. Especially since it is probably their present situation that has led them to rename the day to an according to them more suitable name.



Don't think that my friends are bitter or twisted, they do live life, and are living in the here and now, but lets face it they were invaded, by the poms, just to let you know both my parents and brother are pommies, in case you think I am being politicly incorrect.
I didn't think that, don't worry.



It just seems strange to me that SB thinks it is allright to clelebrate one historical event but at the same time accuses an ethnic group of living in the past. Especially since it is probably their present situation that has led them to rename the day to an according to them more suitable name.
I don't support Australia Day as a historic event though, you see? I consider it more a celebration of present-day Australia than anything else, even if others don't [and I guess that renders me the odd one out]. I acknowledge that some terrible things have happened in this country, the same way terrible things happen in most countries, but I'm all about moving forward. The Australian government should apologise to the Aboriginal people, yes, but they Aboriginal people shouldn't expect "white Australia" to keep repaying them. I guess more than anything, I'm about moving on together. That's what Australia Day is for me, I suppose.

Anyway, I don't consider it okay to celebrate one historical event and not acknowledge all of its ramifications. I'm not one for celebrating many historical events at all.

I hope I've explained myself well-ish.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally Posted by The Silver Bullet
I didn't think that, don't worry.




I don't support Australia Day as a historic event though, you see? I consider it more a celebration of present-day Australia than anything else, even if others don't [and I guess that renders me the odd one out]. I acknowledge that some terrible things have happened in this country, the same way terrible things happen in most countries, but I'm all about moving forward. The Australian government should apologise to the Aboriginal people, yes, but they Aboriginal people shouldn't expect "white Australia" to keep repaying them. I guess more than anything, I'm about moving on together. That's what Australia Day is for me, I suppose.

Anyway, I don't consider it okay to celebrate one historical event and not acknowledge all of its ramifications. I'm not one for celebrating many historical events at all.

I hope I've explained myself well-ish.
I am not too familiar with the australian situation, but don't you think the phrase "Invasion Day" says something about the present as well as history? What is the reason to why they call it that? You think they should not expect you to repay them but you shouldn't expect them to be quiet about their past. Even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.



there's a frog in my snake oil
At least in Ausland there have been positive moves to make amends for land possession and past crimes in recent years, and to respect surviving Aboriginal beliefs (so i also understand why enough-is-enough camp has gained ground too. I think Silver's probably right that it's time to move on - tho from what i've read it can still be difficult for Aboriginals to integrate in cities and find employment - so they might well feel the repurcussions of the invasion are still here)

I was shocked to realise to what extent modern native-indians and aborigines live on the originally de-marked "reservations" (i.e. **** land for the most part) To this extent, there is a continuation of the original encroachments. Again, i think Aus has been far more accomodating in rectifying this. (I'm sure Cait can put me right if there have been similar moves in the US over the last decades)

Interesting that Nebs blames all this on the "Poms". Almost sounds like the successive generations who continued the same practices aren't guilty as well [heheh, and yet i do the same thing - distance myself from the dodgy baggage that comes with Englishness by bigging-up my Aussie side]

I think all cultures sharing a country benefit from respecting each-others' differences.

Incidently, do you think the old cook getting killed represents the way "native" attempts to continue their cultural beliefs regardless - or to help the "invaders" - have ended unfavourably for them??
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Made for me by lovely Lisa
Originally Posted by Golgot
Interesting that Nebs blames all this on the "Poms". Almost sounds like the successive generations who continued the same practices aren't guilty as well [heheh, and yet i do the same thing - distance myself from the dodgy baggage that comes with Englishness by bigging-up my Aussie side]
I wasn't blaming it all on the "poms" it was just that they were the people who colonised Australia, and lets face it they just loved to take over other countries and claim them as there own, there is no malice implied or harbored by me towards England, they were once a very powerful country and the Commonwealth was very large, so much so they still till this day have there own huge sporting event e.g. the Commonwealth Games.



You think they should not expect you to repay them but you shouldn't expect them to be quiet about their past. Even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.
It doesn't make me feel uncomfortable at all. Maybe I should have said constant repayment. We owe Aboriginal people a lot, but in the same way they cannot be expected to "keep quiet" about their past, "white Australia" cannot be expected to constantly be expressing guilt. Personally, I think the whole idea of expressing guilt on behalf of an ancestors and their demanding it on behalf of theirs is all...well...a little silly. And I know that sounds awful, but it's only because I'm one for there being no "white Australia" and no "black Australia" and just an "Australia". I'd love for us to be one group as opposed to two, which really isn't a racist notion at all. I know you didn't say I was being racist. I was just saying.



I will admit to being mostly unaware that the invasion aspect of Australia's past is still striking a strong a nerve as it obviously seems to be. The major issue regarding Aboriginal people in Australia, at present, is that the current Prime Minister refuses to say sorry on behalf of "white Australia" for the "Stolen Generation" [which you can learn more about to some extent in Rabbit-Proof Fence].



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by nebbit
...so they still till this day have there own huge sporting event e.g. the Commonwealth Games.
Oh, we've got a bigger sporting tradition than that. The one where we get beaten at our own games by all you ex-Coms [cricket, rugby...and hell, with football we just let the whole world join in ]

Believe me Nebs, some days i feel like i've got every bit of English baggage sitting in the closet - from massacres to cultural-repression. (I love Ghandi's response when asked what he thought of English civilisation. I believe he said "It could do with some", or something to that effect ). Other days i think they brought back some nice souvenirs, from Asian/"oriental" (tho not many African) influences, to the kind of weird multi-culturalism you still see in places like London to this day. (and even the fact that many ex-commonwealth countries ran into extreme probs after we removed patronage suggests there's a tiny bit of truth in the "paternal" impiricism some people like to perceive i.e. doing a bit of a roman job - laying down roads and helpful social structures here and there etc) And other days i remember my nearest English relo is my Cornish great great grandfather. Oh ****, but i'm half welsh too. They were in on the deal and all.

Ah well, least we can all sit back and laugh at any current Empire-building attempts We may have lost the near terminal optimism that comes with an Empire, but we get the down-to-earth sense of humour as a balance



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Silver Bullet
The major issue regarding Aboriginal people in Australia, at present, is that the current Prime Minister refuses to say sorry on behalf of "white Australia" for the "Stolen Generation" [which you can learn more about to some extent in Rabbit-Proof Fence].
:shudder-non-smilie: now that was some English-stylee cultural-destruction-n-snobbery if ever there was some.

My suspicion, from a distance, is that there's still a dual-culture set-up going on that needs resolving in some way. A bit of meeting in the middle perhaps. We'll see.



Snobbery on my part, or on that of our ultra-conservative Prime Minister?

A bit of meeting in the middle perhaps.
And that, my friend, is what I'm all about.