'Ground Zero mosque'

hey! - that 9 years passed in the blink of an eye. its like my 20s disappeared and I woke up in 2010. i think its perfectly fine they still call it GZ - maybe because they havent yet figured out what to do about it. but then. i havent painted 90% of the rooms of my house yet, and ive been in it 4 years, so maybe im just a slow roller.

bottom line? this whole engagement of our nation started with 9/11, and liken unto the Dickens novel Bleak House, and the never ending trial of Jarndyce v. Jarndyce - we "only just" started lessening troops over there in the sand, and i surmise that's not even really happening with any teeth behind it. so no. I dont think as a nation we're ready to close that wound yet, and prolly wont - at least not so long as we're actively engaged in warfare where the official first stone's cast was GZ.

GZ will be GZ until this is over. Mark it down.

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something witty goes here......

until what is over?


uh Iraq had nothen to do with 9/11 whatsoever.

I'm not getten the gist of your post at all. Sounds like a whole lotta glen beck revisionist history

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"The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo.

She didn't even mention Iraq, but she did say that the "engagement" started with 9/11, which is true. The fact that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 doesn't mean that 9/11 had nothing to do with the War in Iraq; it did, because it led to a new policy on harboring terrorists and a new posture towards potential threats.

Anyway, the only thing "sad" about us still calling it "Ground Zero" is that the event was horrible enough that we still feel the need to.

It will always be Ground Zero.

It will always be known as Ground Zero... and it ain't over because this ******* is still unaccounted for....

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i don't think i've ever met anyone in ny who actually called it ground zero, it may be a little too abstract for people who actually see it on a regular basis as just a part of their everyday lives. which i would guess would also be how a lot of new yorkers would view a mosque nearby. just speculatin about a hypothesis.

also for the people worried about it being attacked, that part of lower manhattan always seems to have cops on every corner whenever i've been there in the last ten years. i guess it's always possible some whack job could fly a plane in it but i'm a little skeptical about how dangerous it actually is. of course it would be terrible if they built it and something worse than protests happen.

i'm not really trying to get into the debate over the larger meaning of this symbolism, i'm actually not sure where i stand on it "politically".

i would be particularly interested to hear from mofos in or from ny about this like Justin or our dear departed Mr. King.

I doubt there are many sites on the net that list specific places, besides ground zero, where remains were found... or if there are, I've never encountered them... but I am fairly certain The Burlington factory building was one of the sites they did recover body parts from... the building, itself, was damaged badly enough that it was deemed unsafe and was, therefore, condemned.

Look, I'm the first to say that mack is correct. In the U.S., there are just too many people who want to kick butt who think they are being taken advantage of. I often feel the same way. That's why I don't drop bombs on every post I dislike.

I suppose I have two points to make here.

1) I believe my previous post makes as much sense as anyone's who has posted in this thread.
2) "It" will never be over. This is what shocks me the most about some people. They still believe that 9/11 is something to get over or get past. It's impossible. The threat of a similar occurrence will never go away, and unfortunately, that means that my kid (and yours too) have bought into a never-ending war. At least as much as they've bought into bankruptcy and living under the yoke of China because of our debts.

Personally, I believe it is better to get past "it", but I believe that's impossible, especially the more things which we don't want to accept as possible actually continue to occur.

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It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. - John Wooden
My IMDb page

THAT'S IT!

No!!

You do NOT convert an old Burlington Coat Factory where body parts from 9/11 victims were recovered into a mosque!

BAD TASTE!

I have no problem with the term "ground zero". It's precisely the "ground zero" of a pre-neutralized cultural battleground. The problem with the Mosque is that it tries to re-neutralize something to an obscene degree. It wants absolute tolerance. Sorry, but Mosques and the U.S. will forever be embedded in their own cultural spheres. There is not such thing as a true "ground zero" where Mosques and the U.S. will somehow be mutually understood. This is the myth of universal tolerance, and it is not multi-culturalism. Multi-culturalism is "ground zero". It's the acceptance of such singularities of cultural contention as necessary biproducts of culture itself. Take the Enola Gay for instance. Many want to dismantle it, because they see it as an insult to Japan. Doing so would be the insult. Like mark said, it would be re-neutralizing the past in an almost revisionist way. Geographic and physical markers are culture in many ways. There is no such thing as smoothing over them.

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"Loves them? They need them, like they need the air."

Oh my god. The place they want to put the mosque actually IS an old Burlington Coat Factory?!



Well, then, forget the mosque -- I need a coat!

Damn, I left for class and I come back to like thirty new posts in this thread. I gotta read through them all before I say anything.

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"I want a film I watch to express either the joy of making cinema or the anguish of making cinema" -Francois Truffaut

that may well be, however am i alone in my disapointment that the NY skyline hasn't been restored?

Nope. If you read my post like twenty down, I agree that this is something that needs to be amended immediately. I'm staying out of the argument of semantics that seems to finds its way into every thread, so I won't comment on the use of Ground Zero. But whatever we choose to call it, and whether changing that name will represent a healing of sorts or be seen as a bad way of forgetting about the events, the memorial needs to go up ASAP.

Yeah, some are beautiful, some are ugly, some are just meh. Just like any other structure for any other religion. That's not why I think it deserves a spot there, just cuz it's pretty. Anyway, I don't really see how Yoda's statement correlates at all to this 'slap in the face' sentiment. It was an absolutely terrible event that changed the landscape of our country literally, politically, and socially. But it is an event that should stand apart from Islam as a belief system. The people who carried out the attacks were Muslims, and claimed to do it for Islam, but they are incredibly misguided people. Islam does not condone actual violence any more than Christianity does. So the building of a mosque, first of all, shouldn't even really be national news. If a person owns a parcel of land or has a grant to build on a specific property or follows the same process everyone else does to build a place of worship, he should be allowed to build it as long as it isn't a danger to the community. The only part of me that disapproves of this does so because of this safety issue. Not because it's a 'slap in the face' of those 3000 people.

We have bombed civilian-heavy areas of foreign countries in every war we've been in with the specific intent of maximum casualties. When we then occupy those countries or build there, is that any less of a slap in the face? And I don't think they're building it as a 'monument,' just as a mosque. The fact that it's located near Ground Zero automatically makes it a statement, but I don't think it's meant to memorialize the attacks in any way.

Honestly, I don't think Yoko would care too much, but that's neither here nor there. I get what you're saying, though, if you mean that we're becoming so accepting that we don't even really evaluate things that we condone. But using that argument in this context implies that condoning the building of a mosque is bad and we're overlooking that.

I think this IS the time to open our hearts up to other peoples and perspectives. I think saying we're not wishing peace on Earth or a bunch of saints is the weakest part of your argument. The world's a terrible place so we shouldn't try to change? So New York is not heaven and we therefore shouldn't try to do good things in it? I hope I'm not twisting your words. It is true that we're far from perfect--we're one of the most violent countries in the world. But that shouldn't effect your personal decision on building a mosque. That's like saying, things are so bad, doing this shouldn't happen because that would be peaceful and we're not a country that values peace. I think a change needs to start with an individual who cared enough to say things are bad and then try to change things. A mosque could be a positive, though extremely ill-informed way of provoking this change. But actually, I don't think that statement was goofy. It was kind of funny and a pretty good metaphor.

Another funny metaphor. But I was specifically asking about people who oppose it for the 'slap in the face' thing. It's easy to say that it shouldn't be built because it will most likely lead to violence in the area and could possibly worsen relations between Muslim-Americans and the rest of the country. I accept this part of everyone's argument. It's unavoidable. I wanted to know in particular the viewpoint of people who think it shouldn't be built for other reasons.


The point I was making was that it hasn't taken this long because we want it to be perfect. There have been plans that have generally been agreed upon as being great memorials. But the plans fell through for reasons other than they weren't good enough. The people in charge of building at the site were more concerned with technical and/or bureaucratic dealings which seem rather trivial when compared to the need to erect a symbol of America's perseverance and our ability to get back on our feet after taking a terrible blow. It is like saying, yeah, we'll get right back up, right after we sort out the exact rent price of office space.

The developers wanted to maximize profit in the building and tried to raise the rent above the standard real estate value of office buildings in the area. Moreover, many citizens of New York did not want to pay taxes for the building, because of technicalities regarding its position as a government building vs. a residential building, etc... They should have said, let's build the damn thing and worry about it all later. Even more disappointing is that it has become politicized to the point of being more about left vs. right than America working together.



OK, cool. I thought you just went all racist on me, giving your own name to them. I agree, there will be MANY derogatory nicknames thrown Muslim New Yorkers' way.


In reference to building a mosque being anti-American:
I can't remember your exact post. But I think the gist was: I'm not anti-mosque [so that's not why I oppose it], but I'm also not anti-American. It seemed in that sentence you kind of set the two against each other. I thought it implied, "I don't particularly have anything against mosques, but building one would be unAmerican." Again, I don't want to be putting words in your mouth, so if I misinterpreted, I'm sorry.


Yeah, I usually try to stay out of these sort of touchy discussions on the internet with anonymous people whose background I don't know. But it even has me talking. And yes, this discussion surely pisses everyone off for one reason or another.

I know your using hyperbole for effect, but A) no one takes internet preaching or public access television preaching seriously enough for it to change the dynamic of American-Muslim relations. And B) I meant more the construction of the mosque is a statement that could foster interfaith communication. As in, if it's built, it could represent a positive change in our interactions with Muslim-Americans in an official, state-sanctioned way. The building itself is the message, in the McLuhan sense. I don't mean Catholics are going to be encouraged to walk in and share in the ceremony to better understand Islam.

This is sadly very possible. Hell, probable.

Yeah, I'm an idiot, I understood it right after posting it, but was too lazy to amend it. Anyway, I know this is a lot, but I'd really like to hear your, and everyone else's thoughts and opinions.

.......typical post-modern pho-multiculturalist attitude of tolerance.

Sorry, but Muslims-Americans don't exist in America. Let's be real. 0.6% - 1.6% of the population does not exist. Please stop pretending that they exist. There should be an Atheist center up in ground-zero before a Mosque goes up anywhere. We make up 15% - 37% of the population. Yes. We exist.

This is a de facto Christian nation. Nothing is ever going to change that. I don't pretend. Any more pretending is a self-deception.

Slap in the face is absolutely accurate. The price of equalizing that area was the price of those buildings and the people in it. Nothing more needs to be done. We do not need to force the issue. You are only deceiving yourself that it's doing anything but making people uncomfortable. Sorry, but 0.6% - 1.6% of the population can go elsewhere. Sorry. Nothing is being changed or improved by the addition of the Mosque.

Tolerance did not increase. You did nothing to improve your understanding of Islam. Unless it is part of Islam to be a provocative *******, at which point I can understand Islam quite well.

Yes. This Mosque is a massive Islamic troll. Contribute to the discussion or leave, Mosque.

the hysteria makes it sound like the Mosque is being built in the Footprint of the Twin Towers. It isn't.


Interesting:

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Despite the fact that a mosque put near Ground Zero might be a positive change for America... it seems really... evil... to construct a mosque at this site where all these people died.

9/11 was a HUGE, HUGE thing in America -- I hear even other parts of the world even took notice. As for me, I certainly noticed, but I still tune things out -- I was watching Golden Girls reruns the evening of 9/11. I clearly remember Lifetime TV's message about 9/11 popping up every commercial break. That was 9/11 for me. I guess that's how I deal.
"Oh, terrorists are bringing down the country? Tell me about it later - Dorothy is dating a clown tonight."

So, something that major happens in America, we still haven't built our own monument to it yet, we still call it "Ground Zero"... yet there's this old Burlington Coat Factory building which, according to Caitlyn, may have contained some body parts from victims of 9/11... and they wanna convert it into a mosque.

A MOSQUE... like the ones the 9/11 killers went to.

And there used to be dead body parts from the attack in this building?

It just seems really, really evil. I don't care if mosques are religious places... there is something dark and disturbing, at least on a subconscious level, about bringing a mosque to Ground Zero. People will see it as a victory mosque, no matter what kind of excuses they give for putting the mosque up.

I sometimes believe in good luck charms. Irrational, maybe, but sometimes we need the irrational to help us. A mosque at Ground Zero is not a good luck charm. It will produce nothing but negative energy. There will probably be a river of slime running underneath of it, like in Ghostbusters 2. Sigourney Weaver's baby will probably get kidnapped by a crossdressed Muslim nanny in an airplane and taken to the mosque to have his body incarnated with one of the spirits of the 9/11 attackers. (Okay, maybe that's in really poor taste to say, but my point is -- NEGATIVE ENERGY!!!)

I can't speak for those people and I can't speak for the survivors of the victims. I can't speak for all of America. I can't speak for Muslims everywhere. But it does seem like a disrespectful slap in the face to me. I think it's even rather arrogant.

I'm getting tired. I'll write more tomorrow.

Save the post-modern discussion for the Shoutbox, where it belongs. The discussion here is a mosque. Contribute to the conversation or leave. Also, "pho?" Haha.

You're right, it doesn't exist. America's total population only goes up to 98.4-99.4%.

I don't really see a problem with setting up an Atheist center at all. Whatever, Atheists aren't an inherently violent religious group, so I could care less.

Yeah, it is. So? Who's pretending? Can't we be Christians who accept all world religions? I don't think being a Christian requires a practitioner to have zero tolerance for other religions. What does that have anything to do with anything? Damnit, planet, contribute to the discussion or leave!

In that sense, building any sort of monument for 9/11 would be forcing the issue. It need not be done because nothing could ever make up for the events. But I don't think memorials are constructed to heal the wounds or to even out terrible events with a pretty building. They're not trying to force the issue of, "see how bad WWII was?" Anyway, that's straying a little. I don't think the mosque is meant to memorialize anything. I think it's a mosque. The only question becomes whether it being built there is like terrorists putting a flag next to a victory site, or Muslims poking at old, unhealed wounds, or a group building it because it can encourage brotherhood and understanding. And I think ultimately, it is up for Americans to decide that. Not Muslims. People shouldn't feel like, man I don't have anything against Muslims, but if they build a mosque there I have to disapprove. Hell yes, it's making most people feel uncomfortable; it even makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't live in NY. But I think it can serve a purpose other than making us feel uncomfortable.

Mrs. Robinson, you're trying to provoke me... Well, aren't you?

I am not a Mosque!!!

i don't care where they put their stupid mosque. They may not broadcast it, but that place is going to be bugged and heavily monitored if it gets built. Half the Muslim worshippers are going to be government agents.