'Intelligent Design' = 'Bad Religion'?

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Originally Posted by SamsoniteDelilah
I think Science and Religion MUST work things out. Yes, it's the ultimate romantic conflict: head vs heart and all that. But the undeniable fact is: we're here. And the other undeniable fact is: we want a purpose for being here. So... try as they might to undo each other, eventually, marriage is inevitable.
Pre-Darwin, science and religion weren't in such conflict. Newton was very religious and thought his science was a method for showing the hand of God. Even Copernicus and Galileo who stood the comfortable Aristotlian model of an earth centered universe on its' head, were religious men.

Science is not all head and religion is not all heart. Many scientists feel very passionate and in awe of the universe they study and portions of religion have been cold and unfeeling. Neither belong exclusively to head or heart.

Perhaps most of us demand a purpose, I don't. As far as I can tell, the purpose of life is to survive and procreate. Everything else is filler. But what marvelous filler it is!
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I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally Posted by Sir Toose
Firstly, you might be surprised to learn that I don't support teaching ID as a science.

Secondly, I think the theory of evolution says a lot less than people actually ascribe to it.

Lastly, hi Golgot.
Toose, you old sack of ****! How the hell are you? I have truly missed you!
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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

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They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.



I love you too, pipsqueak!

I'm good, been well, missed debating with you all. I've decided to haunt these halls on a more regular basis as, clearly, you need me.



A system of cells interlinked
Wow, howdy Toose. Long time no type!
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I have been muttering in a corner without your guidence toose, welcome back.



I'm thinking I'll hang around if no one strenuously objects (name that movie).

I got all sentimental for Chris's snowflakes and for some good debate.

Tea Barking, together we shall forge new pathways!



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Sir Toose
Firstly, you might be surprised to learn that I don't support teaching ID as a science.

Secondly, I think the theory of evolution says a lot less than people actually ascribe to it.

Lastly, hi Golgot.
Firstly, you got those in the wrong order.

Secondly, yeah, i think most everyone carries different ideas of evolution round in their head (and many of those ideas are just flights of fancy or convenient stories).

Lastly, i got that in the wrong order too. Howdy partner . How's life been treating you?
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I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally Posted by Sir Toose
I love you too, pipsqueak!

I'm good, been well, missed debating with you all. I've decided to haunt these halls on a more regular basis as, clearly, you need me.
To be perfectly honest..... Yes. I even crave you.



Originally Posted by Sir Toose
I love you too, pipsqueak!
Thanks Nice to have you back Sir
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Originally Posted by Golgot
Firstly, you got those in the wrong order.

Secondly, yeah, i think most everyone carries different ideas of evolution round in their head (and many of those ideas are just flights of fancy or convenient stories).

Lastly, i got that in the wrong order too. Howdy partner . How's life been treating you?
Now, let's get to the wording of your thread. Why do you think ID bad religion? It is bad science as it lacks a testable hypothesis but how is it different from a religious standpoint than religion historically?

Personally, I think ID has some interesting logical arguments though they are, admittedly, not science.

What truly does stand out is that neither modern science nor evolution (as in the theory of) can point out exactly what 'life' is and how it started.

If one were to be perfectly pragmatic about evolutionary theory then one could look at the fossil record and document biological changes over time and that is really it. People take that in many directions and very few of those are based in science. Some would believe it makes monkeys into men and some believe that it's all part of a greater design that we, as of now, are too short sighted to see.

So, how is ID bad religion? Are you saying that it gives the religiously bent false evidence?



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Sir Toose
Why do you think ID bad religion? It is bad science as it lacks a testable hypothesis but how is it different from a religious standpoint than religion historically?
The major ID proponents seem to be more interested in 'combating' the areas of science they disagree with, rather than 'questioning' them in a constructive way. That goes against what most Religions have spent most of their time doing - IE encouraging exploration of God's world etc. (Ignoring Copernicus etc, the Church's track record on promoting science is pretty damned good, and the same goes for other religions).

My idea of a good religion is one that doesn't try and deny inconvenient scientific discoveries - but helps figure out how they can be morally incorporated into the world instead.

Originally Posted by Sir Toose
Personally, I think ID has some interesting logical arguments though they are, admittedly, not science.
I think the Irreducible Complexity theory is doing science a service in that it tries to tackle one of the many 'gaps' in evolution theory (and forces science to focus on that gap).

And i ain't got a problem with the idea of there being a Creator. Just don't think it's proveable tho.

Originally Posted by Sir Toose
What truly does stand out is that neither modern science nor evolution (as in the theory of) can point out exactly what 'life' is and how it started.
Sure, but if anyone's going to get someway towards an accurate 'answer', it's gonna be them . (On how life started anyway. What life is... well, everyone can contribute to that one i guess ).

Originally Posted by Sir Toose
If one were to be perfectly pragmatic about evolutionary theory then one could look at the fossil record and document biological changes over time and that is really it. People take that in many directions and very few of those are based in science. Some would believe it makes monkeys into men and some believe that it's all part of a greater design that we, as of now, are too short sighted to see.
Well, there's more than just the fossil record out there. DNA mutation-rates in mitochondria etc have also been used to trace developmental changes, for example (tho, like carbon-dating, i don't think it's quite as water-tight as its proponents would like it to be). Evolution isn't just a one trick pony when it comes to evidence tho.

But you're right, there are still gaps. And you're right that it can't be demonstrated absolutely conclusively that we evolved from apes (altho if you don't believe that your only other alternative, given the wealth of suggestive evidence, is to assume that we just popped into existence suddenly. And that we just happen to be damn similar to apes ).

And btw, athiest-scientists and ID-supporters both believe there's a 'greater design' to life. It's just that the former think it's a self-generating design, while the latter attribute it to a designer. Nigh on all of them venerate the fact that we could never encompass nor understand it all. (and the ones who think they do, well, they're just nuts ).

Originally Posted by Sir Toose
So, how is ID bad religion? Are you saying that it gives the religiously bent false evidence?
Erm, i'd say it gives 'em no evidence at all . What makes it 'bad religion' for me is when it tries to impede science, rather than work with it.



Originally Posted by Golgot
And btw, athiest-scientists and ID-supporters both believe there's a 'greater design' to life. It's just that the former think it's a self-generating design, while the latter attribute it to a designer. Nigh on all of them venerate the fact that we could never encompass nor understand it all. (and the ones who think they do, well, they're just nuts ) .
If there truly is an ongoing evolution of man then I believe part of it will involve coming to a state of understanding with our origins. I'm not sure we're equipped to deal with it now but eventually we will be.

And yes, there are many self-convinced nuts out there.

I believe we have reached an accord. Which one of us has become more open minded?



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Sir Toose
I believe we have reached an accord. Which one of us has become more open minded?
I've no idea. All i know is that Roger Moore doesn't seem convinced by either of us. There's always one isn't there .

Glad we could reach an accord oh fiery one . (And so quickly too. Took all the fun out of it ).



You ready? You look ready.
I'd have to thank my parents for the best thing they've ever done by me. That is not forcing any type of religion on me. I picked my own and I'm not lying to myself and that's the greatest thing they've done. Oh, and may the Internet be praised also. Hehe. If more parents did what mine did, there would be a lot more understanding in the world. I truly believe that.
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