The effect of female Disney characters on young girls, are they bad role models?

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rufnek, dont you think you're being a little overbearing and judgmental?
No
I dont think there is anything intrinsically wrong with asking for opinion (and you cant get more readily available and wider opinion than on the internet), assuming you also have, or plan to have the other supporting information (acquired by research) at your fingertips. . . . Other than that, I'm very interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject matter, because you seem to allude to greater knowledge.
No, I never claimed to have "greater knowledge" on the subject. That's something you assumed along with your assumption that the other party has done or will do mountains of research on the subject. I don't have any answers, but I've got a heap of questions that such a paper should answer.

First of all, explain to me, please, exactly how opinion can be used to support or defeat an argument that is supposed to be based on fact. The purpose of the report based on what was said in the initial post is whether or not Disney female characters are a bad influence on young girls, presumably in their images of themselves. I can say I think Disney's influence is minimal at its worst, and you can say you think the opposite, but what exactly does that prove? Two conflicting opinions by someone who calls himself rufnek and someone who goes by mack. Do either of us have the knowledge and credentials to state any hard facts of this subject?

As for the subject itself: First of all, is there any evidence that the majority or even a large minority of young girls have a negative image of their bodies? I'm sure there are people who have made detailed studies of this. I'm equally sure that you will not find them or their works through this forum. And what exactly do you mean by young girls. Age 6 and up? Age 11 on down? 6 to 16? 3 to 20? If you are going to do a report, you have to start from some basis of fact, define the problem you plan to explore (including the ages of the group studied), and then proceed with some facts pro or con that can be cited in footnotes, not some opinions pulled off the internet from sources that cannot be identified.

Also if young girls do have a negative image, how much of that is directly traceable solely to Disney? Is Disney's Cinderella and Snow White more or less of an influence on young girls than are Wilma Flintstone, Betty Rubble, Judi Jetson, and all of the other, often more recent cartoon females now seen on TV and in the movies, including the Japanese contributions? And if cartoon characters are influential, are they more or less influential than live enterainers like Hannah Montana or current actresses on TV and in the movies? What role is played by the slim models seen in ads on TV and magazine ads? I think the last time an old or "un-slim" woman was used to sell products was in the "Where's the beef?" and Josephine the plumber commercials. Do you really think that individual opinions on the alleged "Nazism" of Disney cartoons is going to support or refute any of those other issues?



Who says She isn't doing all the other research too, i am actually her classmate, i introduced her to the forum, this forum is a gethereing of people interested/experienced and knowlegable of the media, all she is asking is:
OK, this is a forum where people talk a lot about movies. Some even know a lot about certain films. But how many of us have ever made a deep study of how movies influence society? Particularly, the influence of a certain type of movie on audiences of a certain gender and the uncertain description of "young" (How young? How old? Would the influence differ by nationality and location?)?

I still do not see what it contributes to the report to ask the forum in general "What do you think?" The resulting information would boil down to one line in a report. "Out of XX respondents, X blamed Disney for the negative self-image of some girls, X said Disney wasn't to blame, and X said they didn't know or care." Even then it doesn't get around the fact that opinion means nothing in an essay; only the documented facts do.

I could see if someone wrote in asking if anyone knew of any sources on the subject. But she made an entry under General Movie Discussion, and asked "What do you think?" I responded by sharing my thoughts on the subject. Perhaps the researcher would benefit from a guiding rule among trial lawyers: Never ask a witness a question to which you don't already know the answer. That way, you're less likely to get a response you don't like.



A system of cells interlinked
just because some people believe that alevel students are lazy and just using forums to get the answers to there work, doesnt mean that jen is exactly the same to other alevel students

she is a very hard working student and has already carried out several other forms of reasearch by asking people on their own oppinions

I think you mean opinions, and that is exactly what you got. If you don't like someone's opinions, ignore them, or debate them. You are free to do this as much as you want in this forum.

Telling people what they can and can't post in this forum, however, is not something that concerns you; that's up to the owner of the forum and his mods.

In other words, please don't attempt to lay down some sort of illusory rules for this thread, which doesn't belong to you. If someone posts something you don't like, simply ignore it.

That said, I think many of Rufnek's points are quite valid.

Also, you got plenty of helpful responses (as Jeniferrr has stated, herself) from other people, so I am unsure what the complaints are about.
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Hey Ruffy,

You've got no argument from me on those points, as I agree with Sedai, that they are very valid....if you are the professor! However, I do think opinion counts in most research in some context and is given some weight - perhaps very little weight, and with many restrictions - but considered nonetheless. AND, it can be argued that the context and weight of the opinion is definable not by the opinion-giver (you and me ), but by the author of the paper and/or their professor.

The other thing I think is key is that people are often good sounding boards in an idea-formation stage. Kinda like, between you and mark f's starting points, I could probably choose an angle and write a 30 pager!

But I digress when I'm already ready and willing to concede a fundamental point: I think posts 17-21 have proved Powered WaWa's point about your point.

I hate being proven wrong.
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Bright light. Bright light. Uh oh.
A-Level students in Great Britain are the equivalent of Seniors in American high schools. I already know, from over 17 years of experience, that my daughter looks to me for almost everything, so it's no biggie if she asks me questions. However, I DO realize that some students would never ask their fathers, who they spend more time with than anybody else, a serious question. However, that's not my kid!
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I think you mean opinions, and that is exactly what you got. If you don't like someone's opinions, ignore them, or debate them. You are free to do this as much as you want in this forum.

Telling people what they can and can't post in this forum, however, is not something that concerns you; that's up to the owner of the forum and his mods.

In other words, please don't attempt to lay down some sort of illusory rules for this thread, which doesn't belong to you. If someone posts something you don't like, simply ignore it.

That said, I think many of Rufnek's points are quite valid.

Also, you got plenty of helpful responses (as Jeniferrr has stated, herself) from other people, so I am unsure what the complaints are about.
I'd like to think my responses also were helpful in pointing out better sources and research methods than collecting opinions from unkown sources.



Who can take Disney females seriously? They are nice to look at but that's all.

I remember an English cartoonist got a job at Disney about 15 years ago. He sent in some drawings of original characters, just copying the basic generic face of the Disney females.

Tinkerbelle gets a makeover:


There was some speculation at one time that Disney's Tinkerbell was based on Marilyn Monroe, suggesting that big girls influenced the shape of Disney female characters rather than the other way around. But I think the timing of the release of Peter Pan and especially the time it took to make that cartoon feature placed Tinkerbell's birth well in front of Monroe's rise to stardom.

I don't remember Snow White looking particularly sexy in Disney's first feature-length cartoon, but at another studio Betty Boop was vamping cartoon characters and movie audiences long before Disney put pen and paint brush to Snow White.



I . . . sounds like something somebody connected to Disney via the content of Leni Riefenstahl's films. I will be the first to admit that I've never heard this charge rationally leveled at Disney, but if you understand the charges against Riefenstahl that her filmic presentations of "perfect" bodies in both Olympia (my vote for the most artistic depiction of sports in film history) and her "home movies" and photographic essay books of the Mesakin Nuba tribe in Africa, her detractors pretty much believe that they can find Hitler's desire for a "perfect race" to be present in all her work, even if it's a non-white race.
I’ve always thought Fritz Lang’s films had that Teutonic modernism look of German films and posters during the years of the Reich. Especially in Metropolis (1926), M (1931), The Woman in the Window (1944), Scarlet Street (1945), Rancho Notorious (1952), and to a lesser extent The Blue Gardenia (1953) and The Big Heat (1953).

He was a contemporary of Riefenstahl’s. In fact, Lang claimed he had a meeting with Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister, who told him that (1) his recent film The Testament of Dr. Mabuse (1933) was being banned as an incitement to public disorder and (2) asked Lang to head the UFA German film studios at a time when Lang was already plotting to get out of Germany. Lang's wife Thea von Harbou joined the Nazi party in 1932 and they were divorced in 1933. Lang left Germany in 1934 and eventually came to the US.

One interesting study would be to contrast the work of Riefenstahl who played up to the Nazis and Lang who says he rejected a proposed Nazi reward. They came from a similar heritage, were schooled in the same film techniques, and subject to the same influences from the film worlds of Germany and Europe, and yet took very different paths in their careers.



The effect of female Disney characters on young girls, are they bad role models?

Interesting question.
To be honest, I haven't thought much about it over the years.
I do know that people can study and analyze just about anything into the ground.
That's not a bad thing though.
I would say right now that the images don't really affect young girls that much.
I have always seen Brutus from Popeye as a role model and he hasn't affected me.




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I have always seen Brutus from Popeye as a role model and he hasn't affected me.






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The effect of female Disney characters on young girls, are they bad role models?

Interesting question.
To be honest, I haven't thought much about it over the years.
I do know that people can study and analyze just about anything into the ground.
That's not a bad thing though.
I would say right now that the images don't really affect young girls that much.
I have always seen Brutus from Popeye as a role model and he hasn't affected me.





As I remember it, the Disney characters as role models charge surfaced in the 1960s as part of the feminist movement and was embraced, I think, by the National Origanization of Women (NOW). I'm sure they published data in support of their charge, and I would imagine non-believers also published data challenging that charge. If you looked in college libraries, you'll probably find lots of graduate dissertations from the 60s and 70s on that subject.

However, as I remember, the complaint was not about how Disney females looked but that so many of the heroines ended up waiting for a man to solve their problems--the prince to come around with the glass slipper for Cinderella or kisses for Snow White and Sleeping Beauty. Now contrast that with more modern Disney cartoon females as the young Chinese woman who becomes a warrior and the beauty Belle who saves and transforms the Beast with her love.

And here's another point, the Disney heroines at the time Disney was alive and in charge (from the 1930s on through the 1960s) were--with the possible exception of Wendy--young women, not young girls. On the other hand, with the later cartoon series of Charlie Brown which has appeared in newspapers, books, TV, and on stage, the female characters are all young girls who look like young girls at an early age before they develop any curves at all. Seeing Lucy out-smart and torment Charlie Brown, do young girls view her as a role model for the revenge they would like to inflict on brothers and male school-mates?

One of the best known feminist writers was Betty Friedan who wrote a best-selling well-researched book about how women viewed themselves and their lives. I remember one icon blamed as turning women into sex objects was the Playboy Bunnies at all the Playboy Clubs that were such a big rage in the '60s. (There was a book on that subject by an ex-Bunny, but I can't recall her name.) That seems to me a more logical target than Disney characters.



Registered Creature
Pft. Not really, no. If having an impossibly tiny waist is a good influence. Mostly the others have already said it all.

I thought you meant real-life female Disney stars for a second there; I was about to start having a go at Miley Cyrus.



"A film is a putrified fountain of thought"
OK..thread seems to have strayed a bit but I still think the original question's interesting so here's my thoughts: I think that being skinny and having big boobs is so ingrained into today's society that there's nothing we can really do about. There are so many more factor's going into what is looked upon as the perfect body image, and it's my belief that the media's influence is much less than what it's made out to be. Little girl's will look up to somebody who has an inhumanely perfect body, so I don't blame the studio's for making money off of that fact.



Celluloid Temptation Facilitator
The whole "some day my prince will come thing" is not a great expectation for little girls to internalize.

OTOH, Disney girls are generally, very take charge and powerful in some ways. It depends on exactly which Disney girl we are talking about.
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Bleacheddecay



This is an interesting topic "Disney characters and their effect on young girls. I think that it depends on which age gap you are talking about. The girls under 12 years are definitely affected especially is there is no parental guidance while watching this films. We have to remember that these girls are impressionable and they are sill at that magical stage in life where everything is imaginary. If a an eight year old watches Cinderella and sees how the fairy God Mother transforms her, she will assume that in life someone will always come and make her look good.
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Marie



The whole "some day my prince will come thing" is not a great expectation for little girls to internalize.

OTOH, Disney girls are generally, very take charge and powerful in some ways. It depends on exactly which Disney girl we are talking about.
Yeah, I think in the last couple of decades, female Disney characters have become more proactive just as real actresses now portray lawyers, police, soldiers, business executives--people who are carving their own careers rather than wait for Prince Charming.

But I also think it's wrong to single out Disney to blame because of Snow White and Cinderella and the other ladies in the early cartoons who had to rescued by the prince. Look at the regular movies from that period and you won't find many strong Auntie Mames or His Girl Fridays or Mildred Pierces because most women were portrayed in most films as taking a backseat to the males. Andy Hardy loved his mom who was always cooking and washing for him, but when he needed a wise person to advise him, he always went to his dad the judge.



OK..thread seems to have strayed a bit but I still think the original question's interesting so here's my thoughts: I think that being skinny and having big boobs is so ingrained into today's society that there's nothing we can really do about. There are so many more factor's going into what is looked upon as the perfect body image, and it's my belief that the media's influence is much less than what it's made out to be. Little girl's will look up to somebody who has an inhumanely perfect body, so I don't blame the studio's for making money off of that fact.
I've always thought it odd that most of today's young stars are slim and better-looking than any of the real people we know, when statistics tell us most Americans today are overweight, some of us dangerously so. So why are we not seeing more stars who are as chubby as Kathy Bates or Mama Cass or Marlon Brando in his later years? Can't fat, old, ugly people be talented, too, or is it that we'll settle for even minor talent so long as the singer/actor looks good (Anyone remember Fabian?)



Disney princesses will never be fat... that would not look right when they're being served to kids through the drive thru windows at McDonald's.

Besides the need for an even bigger plastic baggy for the plump princess to reside in while she waits for her new McDonald's lovin' friend, another issue is the prince. That knight in shining armor. I know these Disney movies are just fantasies, but would a handsome prince really go and save a fat princess from the clutches of evil?

If the evil also happens to be an evil woman who happens to be slim, not a chance in hell. Many heterosexual men like b!tches. Women like The Evil Queen from Snow White, Cruella De Vil and Malificent from Sleeping Beauty are hot, passionate, male torturing dominatrixes. I just watched Sleeping Beauty the other day... she put the prince in a dungeon and even handcuffed him to a wall. If Sleeping Beauty was fat, you think he'd come after her when he's already got something going with a woman who likes to boss around men? They'd only want Sleeping Beauty to wake up so she could move around and get some exercise.