Okay, first thing's first. There's been a misunderstanding...one that I'm quite surprised at, really. I'll go in alphabetical order:
firegod
This whole "atheists don't believe in free will" claim is absolutely ridiculous. I've had discussions with literally hundreds of atheists, and perhaps 3 or 4 of them have given me the impression that they believe everything is fated, all mapped out, that no one really makes choices with free will. I would take a WILD STAB IN THE DARK, and say that most atheists believe they have free will. You are trying to put words in atheists mouths, something you don't do a very accurate job of.
This paragraph tells me that you've got my claim all wrong. I'm not saying that Atheists don't believe in Free Will. I'm saying they have no logical reason to. It's similar to saying that if you believe in an omniscient God, you can't believe in Free Will either. That's not to say there are not people who DO, in fact, believe in both Free Will and God's omniscience...but the point is that they have no sound basis for that belief.
I'm sure most Atheists do, in fact, believe in Free Will. I just don't see how it make sense, is all. I hope that clears this up a tad.
I never said anything like the stuff humans are made up of is special. You are grasping so hard in this thread, that one would think your arms are a mile long.
I think grasping would be more easily defined as not having an answer, but assuming there is one. Allow me to be blunt (I mean this with all respect): I don't see any counter-argument of substance here.
I don't know about CRAZY; that's your word, not mine. But your claims in this thread don't make any sense. You throw them out there like they are fact, and give nothing to back them up. Your attitude seems to be that if I can't explain how humans are different than leaves when it comes to fate, then your claims are correct. Nonsense. You are the one making the assertions; back them up. Just because I don't know how the human brain works, doesn't prove your point in the slightest way.
I throw them out there because anyone can clearly deduce that they are fact.
We DO know how the human brain works, at least enough to know there's nothing magical about it as it appears to us: it produces electrical impulses which travel through our body. Electricity, man. That's pretty much what it consists of. There's some chemicals thrown in for good measure, I believe. Nothing we haven't analyzed before.
Let me ask everyone here something: what happens when you make a choice? Well, we know an electrical impulse of sorts travels through a certain part of your brain to another part of your brain, which transmits that signal to some part of your body, which obeys, if it is able, the command. So at what point is the choice really made?
Where do you get this?? How do you make the leap from someone not believing in a god to the things they do being inevitable? You have not explained this; you just expect us to buy it. I don't believe in fate, Chris. Please explain to me how everything is mapped out just because I don't have a belief in any deities?
I know you don't believe in fate, and for the most part, I don't either. Again: I'm not saying fate exists because you don't believe in God. I'm saying that if mankind is nothing more than the sum of its parts, it is merely more stuff reacting to other stuff. Can you name me one part of the brain's decision-making process which does not involve mere reaction? I don't see why you believe the chemicals that we are made of to be outside of the laws of physics and chemistry.
The only thing we have is the appearance of choice because no one can weigh all the circumstances fast enough to predetermine the outcome.
Think of a computer: electrical signals sent throughout, similar to a brain. Yet it has no choice at all. What do we have which a computer does not to give us genuine choice that is not predetermined by present and past circumstances?
LordSlaytan
Yes, you push my buttons. Yes, I push yours. How do we manage to not do this? I don't know the answer to that. If we follow your logic, then it is inevitable that we don’t get along.
Actually, by my logic, God exists and we have Souls and, therefore, have every reason to believe in Free Will. But I really have no major problems with you. Like I said: I know you're a good man. I like to think I know bad men when I come into contact with them. And I don't think you're one of them.
You asked the question, “What key ingredient sparks us with choice?”. The way I see it, it must be our brains. Yes, all living and non-living organisms that live on, and make up, the planet Earth consist of the same make-up. But not all of the “creations” are made the same. It’s like a potato, there’s a gratins, mashed, baked, and fried. Of course they’re all potato’s, but they’re all different in flavor, texture, and appearance.
But what makes our brains so special?
The difference between me and your leaf, is that my cells make up another organism that can act independently from it’s nature.
How can any creature act independently from its nature if we're merely a mass of stuff? Wouldn't our nature be however it is we act? Our nature isn't really defined as what makes sense...when we observe any consistency among animals, we don't attempt to rationalize; we chalk it up to being their "nature." So isn't the fact that we do things like hold onto trees when it's windy merely part of our nature, too?
We initiate cause and effect as well as fall victim to it. We initiate it with our choices and free will. A leaf cannot share this distinction with sentient beings.
If our brain is what sets us apart, what is it that sets it apart? We can analyze signals the brain sends internally, and unless I'm misremembering horribly, there's never appeared to be anything special about that.
Or, put another way: no matter how elaborate the domino structure is, when you push that first one, they're all goin' down. Complexity does not equal exemption from that. It just means more cause-and-effect on a more specific, intricate level is involved in events where our brain takes part.
Please be more clear with what your threads are “really” about from here on out. I would appreciate that a great deal.
I was hoping to see how people reacted, first. In hindsight, 'twas a bad choice. That said, I don't think your post looked "stupid" at all, as I believe you called it. As I said earlier, I thought it was well-written and insightful, and actually, it seems to have branched off into the issue of Free Will WITH God, as well, which is quite welcome.
Pidzilla
But you guys make me do it!
I think fire and I would agree that that's a very good thing.
How is that really different from hardcore "God worshippers"? "God only knows", "God will lead the way", "God will tell me what to do", "May God's will be done". Where's the Free Will in that?
There isn't any there, as far as I can see, which is one of the reasons I've never been one to say "It's all part of God's plan." In a sense, I'm sure it is, in the sense that God's plan is contingent on Free Will and therefore, inevitably, suffering.
I personally believe that God is only in our minds. This discussion is a proof of that. As my signature says: it's a concept.
In a sense you're almost right. He is in our minds; because it's the best place for Him to show Himself. In a backdoor of sorts. Through things like our moral instinct and our belief in our own ability to choose. Those sorts of things logically imply something beyond the physical world around us.
FYI: concerning the whole "Jesus ain't God, but He's cool" stuff: I don't think that makes much sense. The evidence we have suggests that He was quite clear about His claims: I'm the Son of God. So, if you don't believe He was, either He was lying, or He was insane. Neither one would make a good moral leader, if you ask me.
Closed Thread
Yeah, well... Lennon's probably spinning a couple of times in his grave every time someone's calling him "liberal". 
!!!