The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Classical Film Noir existed for a brief period of 20 years, and just like that *poof* it's gone... but in the words of noir expert Eddie Muller, "what do you do with the movies afterwards that seem like those films?" Well, that's where neo-noir comes into play. It is the logical evolution of the classic film noir with more modern themes and sensibilities. It amplifies the scope to include other countries and other genres. Like most continuations, it is bigger and badder, but we're gonna tackle it anyway.


As lawless as neo-noir might be, this is not Chinatown... or Nam. This is MoFo. There are rules! So here they are:

• Submit your ranked list of twenty-five (25) titles, from best to worst, using our neo-ballot tool (see what I did there?) See below for more info.
• Films will be awarded points as follows: 25 points for 1st place, 24 points for 2nd place, 23 for 3rd and so on, all the way down to one point for your 25th placed film.
• If you submit less than 25 films, then points will be redistributed accordingly (i.e. if you submit 10 films, your top film will receive 10 points, then 9 for your 2nd place, 8 for your 3rd place, etc.)
• Hey, you. Rookie! New members can send in a list as soon as they've been a member here for one month. Other cases can be treated on a case-by-case basis.
• Keep your list close to your vest! Anyone who reveals their submitted list before the countdown has ended will be disqualified. So hush-hush.
• The deadline for entries will be February 25, 2024. That gives you almost three (3) months to investigate, catch up, or refresh anything you might put up on your list.

So where do you vote for this batch of corrupt films? Just like previous countdowns, we'll be using our new ballot software, courtesy of Yoda, which you can access here:


It will look like this:

https://i.imgur.com/5QKYnCN.png

• Just type the name of the movie you want and select it from the drop-down list.
• If the movie doesn't appear, you can click the link on the upper right corner ("movie you want not showing up") and paste the URL of the movie from the IMDb or TMDb.
• Check, and double-check, the names and dates of the film as you choose them, to avoid mistakes and confusion. Remember that there can be several films with the same title (especially, foreign films)
• There should be a minimum of ten (10) entries per ballot.
• You will receive a copy of your list via PM after you submit.
• All ballots are final, so make sure everything is set before submitting.

So what films can break through this glass door to get in our countdown?

• Only films released in or after 1960 are eligible. If they are from 1940 to 1959, put them on Citizen's Film Noir ballot.
• Films will be eligible as long as they are tagged or notably identified as "noir", "film noir", or "neo-noir" at TWO of the following at least: IMDb, Wikipedia, or Letterboxd/The Movie Database.
• At IMDb if they are tagged "noir", "film noir", or "neo-noir" anywhere on the page.
• At Wiki it needs to say "noir", "film noir", or "neo-noir" in the movie's first section in the first or second sentence. Alternatively, it could be on a "neo-noir" category at the bottom of the page.
• At Letterboxd or The Movie Database, it should have "noir", "film noir", or "neo-noir" among its themes.

Here are some examples of what you should be looking for:


If you are not sure, feel free to ask about any film here on the thread or via DM. We will try to clarify and reach a consensus, and notable eligibility cases might be put somewhere visible on the thread for others to check.


There's a lot of time to watch some films, so don't stand there picking your nose. Sit down with your best friends or worst enemies and watch and talk about neo-noir. Even if you don't think you're into noir or neo-noir, I'm sure most of you have seen at least 25 films that would qualify. So make sure you watch, rewatch, and get your voting list in. We will have some noir watching activity threads, so check them out and try to participate.

Remember that Citizen Rules is hosting the Film Noir countdown (see thread here) so make sure and participate in that one as well.

Also, feel free to join the Neo-noir Scavenge Hunt!

So as usual, choose well, choose wisely, always respect the opinions and thoughts of others, but most of all, HAVE FUN... in a dark and twisted way!

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

BALLOTS RECEIVED

1. John W Constantine
2. Holden Pike
3. Balor
4. seanc
5. Allaby
6. GulfportDoc
7. Tugg
8. MovieFan1988
9. Citizen Rules
10. Diehl40
11. mrblond
12. Harry Lime
13. Miss Vicky
14. Thursday Next
15. Fabulous
16. Yoda
17. Cobpyth
18. Torgo
19. Frightened Inmate No. 2
20. PHOENIX74
21. Wigram
22. stillmellow
23. SpelingError
24. LAMb EELYAK
25. Hey Fredrick
26. John-Connor
27. beelzebubble
28. CosmicRunaway
29. ScarletLion
30. culliford
31. Little Ash
32. crumbsroom
33. WHITBISSELL!
34. Siddon
35. Ash TheStrangeOne
36. cricket
37. honeykid
38. Kaplan
39. edarsenal
40. KeyserCorleone
41. rauldc14
42. Sedai
43. Wyldesyde19
44. ApexPredator
45. CaptainT
46. Thief
47. Iroquois

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

RECOMMENDATIONS AND HELPFUL LINKS

Watch this brief introduction to neo-noir from noir expert, Eddie Muller

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q89aiCdt3Q

Episode of my podcast where we cover Noir and some neo-noir:
The Movie Loot 49: The Noir Loot (with Richard Edwards)

Angelica Jade Bastien article on Vulture.com
33 Essential Neo-Noirs, From Jackie Brown to Gone Girl

NoFilmSchool article on Neo-noir
What is Neo Noir? Definition and Essential Examples

Wikipedia list of neo-noirs
List of neo-noir films

Swapnil Dhruv Bose article on Far Out magazine
From Martin Scorsese to Ridley Scott: 10 essential films from the American neo-noir movement

Hannah Saab and Alexander Bernard article on Collider.com
The 12 Best Neo-Noir Movies of All Time, According to Reddit


Mentions on these lists and articles doesn't override our eligibility rules. They're meant to serve as guides to what is neo-noir.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

It's on! I will add more links to this third post once I get home, so keep your eyes on it.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Excellent work Thief!

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

In opening picture above, I see you included Jackie Brown and Drive as neo noir, so I will consider them for my list.

Question: is The Killer (2023) neo noir?

Jackie Brown and Drive are both eligible because they are included in a "neo-noir" category in Wikipedia (see bottom of their Wikipedia articles) and they both have a "neo-noir" tag on IMDb.

I still haven't seen The Killer (might watch it tonight or tomorrow), but it has a "neo-noir" tag on IMDb. As far as Wikipedia or Letterboxd, nothing yet, and it needs at least two. Considering that it's a film that just premiered on Netflix today, let's give this one some time before we decide.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Thank for hosting, Thief!

*Sees thread, gets excited.*
*Reads eligibility requirements and goes to check the eligibility of her favorite Neo-noir*
*No longer excited.*

Which films were you considering? We can dig deeper if need be

The very first movie I checked is Who Framed Roger Rabbit.

IMDb has "neo noir" listed under Plot Keywords. Wikipedia includes it on the Neo-noir list that Thief posted, but it's not anywhere on the film's Wiki page. It's not listed as Neo-noir anywhere on its Letterboxd page.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Hooray!

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2l...gky4/giphy.gif

Hmm, my initial reaction is to consider it since the noir elements are pretty much at the core of the film. But since it is also an animated comedy, I suppose the noir sub-definition gets diluted a bit. We'll deliberate in the backroom and let you know.

https://www.themoviedb.org/movie/856...d-roger-rabbit
It's tagged as Neo noir on the TMDB site, so that's two movie sites that have it tagged as neo noir. You should be good to go.

Ah, thanks. I didn't check TMDB because it and Letterboxd are listed like they're the same thing on the first post. I'll make sure to check it for the others I'm considering.

Letterboxd feeds off from The Movie Database for most of its data, which is why I assumed that most of its tags would replicate to it. Worth checking both then.

Movies can bridge genres, let’s not forget.

Yes. Notable examples of bridges/fusions fitting for this thread are tech-noir (Blade Runner, Dark City, Strange Days?) or noir/comedy (The Man Who Wasn't There, The Big Lebowski? the afore mentioned Who Framed Roger Rabbit?), neo-western/neo-noir (No Country for Old Men?), and also, whatever it's going on with Mulholland Drive :laugh:

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Plenty of obvious ones there, but anyone want to take a shot at identifying all thirty-two of 'em?

Without looking anything up:

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

@Cobpyth - in addition to the five you didn't answer, one of those was wrong. Otherwise, spot on.

I'll give it a try...



How did I do?

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

@Thief - other than the ones you didn't answer, two wrong. Twenty correct.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Now that Holden brought those images, I have some questions that I think would be beneficial for everybody, but I'm gonna let some more people take a crack at it.

I will wait for the answers, but think I only got ten

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Finally! Thanks for running this, Thief. With you here and CR in the Classic Noir we're in for a great dual/duel Mofo countdown experience!

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

And then a movie needs to be tagged on at least two of the three...


Does High and Low count?
I see it on Letterboxd.
Not in the first paragraph on wiki but I do see it at the bottom tagged categories (which I think should count): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_and_Low_(1963_film)
And then not genre tagged on imdb but keyword tagged: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057565/keywords/


I await your verdict.


Alphaville, Blade Runner?

When I think of neo noir Blade Runner is the first film I think of.

It's a classic noir story of a burnt out, jaded detective-cop who's down and out. He's left the police force. His wife has left him and he lives alone, drinking way too much. He's called back into duty to track down some dangerous killers and ends up falling in love with the femme fatale. He then risks his life by illegally sheltering her and finally running away with her to kept her safe. That's a noir story if I ever seen one.

Harry, are you saying it's not tagged noir on the sites listed in the rules? I haven't checked myself. Seems Alphaville would be neo noir too.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Yeah so far ones in question, for me at least are: High and Low, Blade Runner, Alphaville, Taxi Driver, Le Cercle Rouge, The Conversation, Takeshi Kitano films like Sonatine and Hana-bi, The Big Lebowski, Pulp Fiction, Fargo, The Limey, No Country for Old Men, Serie Noire, Bad Lieutenant, Fallen Angels, Sexy Beast, A History of Violence


I guess it's a matter of clarifying a few things. 1) Do keywords on imdb count or only genre? 2) How about those tags at the bottom of the wiki page? I think these should be considered.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

The answers for my 32 pics are...

High & Low, Point Blank, In the Heat of the Night, The Naked Kiss, The Driver, The Conformist, Chinatown, The Long Goodbye, Night Moves, Straight Time, Blow Out, Body Heat, Angel Heart, To Live and Die in L.A., Thief, Blade Runner, L.A. Confidential, SE7EN, Romeo is Bleeding, The Hot Spot, Shallow Grave, One Flase Move, The Grifters, Dead Again, Memento, SIN CITY, Zodiac, No Country for Old Men, Blue Ruin, Inherent Vice, Driver, and Nightcrawler

The example picture shows IMDb keyword tags.


"Alternatively, it could be on a "neo-noir" category at the bottom of the page."

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Generally I am just following the tagging rules, but I am going to ask for an appeal on Victoria (2015).

Nice find! Never saw this before.

I watched the film last night. It was nicely done, but apart from some of the photography, and it's title being reminiscent of two classic noirs, I don't know what would qualify The Killer as being neo-noir. To me it's just another hit man movie with a happy ending.

Firstly, Wikipedia is bull. Anyone can go in and change it, so the system is already broken. Someone can even erase the tag to keep a film they disagree with from getting in. Secondly, why do we need two out of three? The members here have proven time after time that they'll vote based on what they feel is accurately while also following the rules, so for two instead of one would be a bit strict. You should keep it to just Imdb and Letterboxd and allow for only one out of two to allow the film in.

I appreciate the concerns, but I disagree. First, as someone who has been a frequent editor on Wikipedia for more than 15 years, I can acknowledge that it's not without issues, but there are hundreds and thousands of editors and moderators behind the curtain self-policing changes to articles. So it's not as easy as just "erasing a tag" and nobody will notice.

Besides, although I would say it requires a couple more hurdles, anybody can join and edit IMDb and TMDb (and by consequence, Letterboxd). I know because I am an editor in both.

Third, the need for two out of three comes precisely to address your main concern about Wikipedia, or any of the other sites. The fact that we're requiring two places means that anybody with those intentions that you mention has to "sabotage" two websites, not one.

Finally, the floor is open for any question of eligibility about any film that might not fit those criteria, like Vicky did yesterday. If there's any film you'd like to vote for that doesn't fit, let us know.

High and Low applies from all three counts: it has a "neo-noir" tag on IMDb, it is in a neo-noir category in Wikipedia, and it has a "Film Noir" theme on Letterboxd.

Alphaville applies via Wikipedia (described as such in intro) and IMDb ("neo-noir tag"). It doesn't have a "Film Noir" theme on Letterboxd, but it does have a "neo-noir" keyword on TMDB. Not necessary cause it already qualified, but just saying...

Blade Runner applies via Wikipedia (neo-noir category at the bottom), and IMDb (both "neo-noir" and "tech-noir" tags). Didn't see anything on Letterboxd, but although it's not needed, I'm sure if I go to TMDB, It would have a "neo-noir" keyword like Alphaville.

So all three are good to go.

I've tried those edits on Imdb and Tmdb before, one got me nowhere and I had to fill out a FORM just to get nowhere in the first place, and the other got me verbally abused by a mod because I expressed polite concerns for a mistagged porn movie.

There you go. I already confirmed three of those. When I have more time, I can check the others, but it's like LAMb said.

I haven't seen the film, but I don't see anything on all three websites. I do have it on my Watchlist, but I will deliberate in the back room and come back to you.

Dammit! The Blue Ruin was nagging at the back of my brain :laugh: I knew I had seen it. Just couldn't place it. Good game.

@Thief

What about You Were Never Really Here?

Wikipedia calls it Neo-Noir, but the other sites don't seem to agree.

IMDB does list neo-noir as one of the keywords, so it should count.

Sweet. I looked at the keywords, but missed it. It's way down on the list but still counts.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Thanks for helping clarify. I can't believe I missed that it says "at the bottom of the page: for wiki in the eligibility rules. I think I'm losing it.



All of the ones I listed were eligible except Sonatine and Sexy Beast.

Sonatine is on the Wikipedia list of neo-noir linked in the third post. But doesn't appear to be eligible based on tags/keywords as per the first post.


The people who add the IMDb keywords are of course the experts in this field. It's ok though because if we ever do a countdown of "existential loneliness", "fight in an elevator"* or "nipples visible through clothing", it will be right up there.


*(May lose this particular countdown to Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Drive)

Apologies, but as I go through my list of possibilities, I'm probably going to question quite a few. Even after watching various videos explaining neo-noir, I'm not at all sure I totally grasp the definition.

Anyway, what about American Gangster? Wikipedia lists "American neo-noir films" at the bottom of the page, but IMDb and TMDb don't seem to agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV_nssS6Zkg

It's been awhile since I last watched it and I don't actually know if I'd vote for it, but I'm also not going to bother with a rewatch right now until I know if it's eligible.

I haven't seen American Gangster, but it seems Wikipedia is the only one that has it in a neo-noir category, but that's it. There's not even a single mention of noir in its whole article, and none of the other sites back up the "neo-noir" label, so it wouldn't be eligible. As far as I can see, it seems to be more like a crime biopic.

Ok, the ones in bold are the ones I hadn't thought of as neo-noir, so Id love to get your (or anyone's) insights. Thanks in advance!

I just saw it yesterday and I partially agree with Gulfport. Regardless, at this point, it's not eligible based on the criteria.

BTW, are we gonna get a neo noir recommendations thread or group watch or something?

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Interesting. I'll submit a list for this. I have about 30 already. Need to cut a few out. I think this will throw up an interesting final list as Neo-Noir is quite broad.

I'm preparing something for today that might be fun. Stay tuned.

As promised, I just put up a thread for a Neo-noir Scavenger Hunt. So if anybody is interested, click the link and follow the instructions.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

I saw that Brazil by Terry Gilliam is labled Tech-noir on one of the two cites (I believe it was letterboxed). Could we count it or does it have to be on two sites.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Tech Noir is really an offshoot or subgenre of Neo Noir. Some are both, like Blade Runner, but to me stretching that far to include Brazil isn't really necessary. There are so many things that fall under Neo Noir, just stick to that. It's already a huge umbrella.

When can we vote?

Soon. I'll let you all know once the technical stuff is done. Thanks!

Ok, so to answer John's question, or anybody else that was wondering... the ballot tool is ready.

Vote here

The link is also available in the OP, so feel free to send in your ballots whenever you want.

Woooooooòoooooooooo!!!!

Alriiight! John W. Constantine has the honor of being the very first one to submit a ballot. Now, I'm gonna scrutinize that ballot like a MoFo :laugh:


https://www.theexaminernews.com/exam...909-scaled.jpg

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Two ballots in, we cookin!

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

I got two ballots in too, tied!

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

I just submitted mine!

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

A new case has been brought up to the office on the Neo-noir Scavenge Hunt thread. Go check it out and participate!

Out of the first two Neo-noir Scavenge Hunt groups, half of the titles are higly considered for my ballor:

The Naked Kiss (1964)
Le Samouraï (1967)
Chinatown (1974)
Blade Runner (1982)
Red Rock West (1993)
Bound (1996)
Jackie Brown (1997)
Mulholland Drive (2001)
The Man Who Wasn't There (2001)
Mother (2009)
Drive (2011)

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Yeah, a bunch of those are lock-ins for me.

The Seven Ups

3 1/2 stars

Pretty good Neo noir featuring Roy Scheider leading a group of cops who operate outside the law. When they’re dragged into a case involving men masquerading as officers to kidnap and ransom prominent mob figures, it becomes personal.
Features a wonderful car chase that outshines The French Connection and is on par with Bullitt.

There was sort of a boom in Neo Noir in the early 1990s. Your guess as to why is as good as anybody's. May have had something to do with sex selling, and a sultry noir-ish tale was a relatively inexpensive way to deliver it, especially in the burgeoning Independent Film scene? Maybe because the younger crop of filmmakers were the first VHS/cable and second film school generation and they were keen to either remake or pay homage to classic Noirs? Whatever the reasons, Neo Noir was definitely a thing to start the 1990s.



Some were straight-up remakes. Scorsese's Cape Fear (1991) with Nick Nolte and Robert DeNiro is a remake of J. Lee Thompson's 1962 potboiler starring Gregory Peck and Robert Mitchum, Michael Cimino's Desperate Hours (1990) with Mickey Rourke and Anthony Hopkins updated William Wyler's 1955 effort starring Bogart and Fredric March, Peter Hayams' Narrow Margin (1990) with Gene Hackman and Anne Archer remakes Richard Fleischer's 1952 flick starring Charles McGraw and Marie Windsor, Steven Soderbergh's stylish The Underneath (1995) starring Peter Gallagher and William Fichtner is a remake of Robert Siodmak's Criss Cross {1949) starring Burt Lancaster and Dan Duryea, Barbet Schroeder's Kiss of Death (1995) with David Caruso and Nic Cage reworks Henry Hathaway's 1955 classic starring Victor Mature and Richard Widmark, Irwin Winkler's Night and the City (1992) with Bob DeNiro and Jessica Lange was a reworking of Jules Dassin's 1950 flick starring Richard Widmark and Gene Tierney, James Dearden's A Kiss Before Dying (1991) with Sean Young and Matt Dillon remakes the 1956 Gerd Oswald flick starring Joanne Woodward and Robert Wagner, Tamra Davis' debut Guncrazy (1992) with Drew Barrymore and James LeGros updates the 1950 poverty row classic Gun Crazy with Peggy Cummins and John Dall, and Roger Donaldson's The Getaway (1994) with then-husband and wife Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger is a remake of Peckinpah's 1972 Neo Noir starring Steve McQueen and Ali MacGraw.



Besides being remakes, most of those were also novels, and this period also saw new adaptations of classic pulp crime writers including Stephen Frears' The Grifters (1990) starring John Cusack, Angelica Huston, and Annette Bening, James Foley's After Dark, My Sweet (1990) with Jason Patric, Rachel Ward, and Bruce Dern, Maggie Greenwald's The Kill-Off (1990) and The Getaway all from Jim Thompson novels. Dennis Hopper's The Hot Spot (1990) starring Don Johnson, Virginia Madsen, and Jennifer Connelly is adapted from Charles Williams' Hell Hath No Fury, and Phillip Noyce's claustrophobic thriller Dead Calm (1989) starring Sam Neill, Nicole Kidman, and Billy Zane is another one of his novels. George Armitage's Miami Blues (1990) with Alec Baldwin, Fred Ward, and Jennifer Jason Leigh updates a Charles Wileford book.



And then there were those original scripts that were very clearly paying homage to pulp novels and Noir cinema like Carl Franklin's One False Move (1992) with Bill Paxton and Billy Bob Thornton, Kenneth Branagh's Dead Again (1991) with Emma Thompson, Peter Medak's Romeo is Bleeding (1993) with Gary Oldman and Lena Olin, Danny Boyle's Shallow Grave (1994) starring Ewan McGregor and Chris Eccleston, Mike Figgis' Liebestraum (1991) with Kevin Anderson and Bill Pullman, Wolfgang Petersen's Shattered (1991) with Tom Berenger and Bob Hoskins, Bob Rafelson's Blood & Wine (1996) with Jack Nicholson and Michael Caine, and John Dahl alone made three Noir tributes in this period in Kill Me Again (1989) with Val Kilmer & Joanne Whalley, Red Rock West (1993) with Nic Cage and Dennis Hopper, and The Last Seduction (1994) with Bill Pullman and Linda Fiorentino.


You could make a pretty tasty and very legit Top 25 almost from this period alone.

Our third case is already on the docket for all of you on the Neo-noir Scavenge Hunt thread. Are you doing your part?

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

That is a beautiful post, Holden, and I agree about this boom. I would also add a couple of titles like Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead (with Andy Garcia), Suicide Kings (with Christopher Walken), Wild Things, Oliver Stone's U-Turn, 2 Days in the Valley, and Malice with one of the best scenery chewings from Alec Baldwin's career.

Already checked for eligibility, not previously mentioned Neo-Noirs:

Eligibility check request @Thief and @Holden Pike

Dirty Harry 1971
King of New York 1990

Glengarry Glen Ross 1992

Carlito's Way 1993

Heat 1995
Breakdown 1997
Inside Man 2006

Glengarry Glen Ross? Really?

I don't know how people make their MoFo genre lists, but I think some must just look at your top six hundred titles on Letterboxd or wherever else you have your personal ratings catalogued and then work your way down from number one, trying to squint and see if you can make something fit the genre rather than think about what the genre is and which films best embody it?

My big wish was that Noir and Neo Noir be separated, which happily they have been. Now that we are here in Neo Noir, if people want to essentially waste their votes on things that aren't obviously eligible but maybe kinda sorta around the edges qualify but nobody else is reasonably ever going to consider it for their lists....I mean, go ahead, I guess? If it makes one feel good to pick things that have zero chance of making the collective just to prove how out-of-the-box your mind works, I say bless you, have at it. You are allowed compile a list full of defacto "one-pointers" where you are the only person who voted for titles up and down your ballot instead of looking at the genre and making some choices. As somebody who has run a couple of these lists and one of them was a genre, I will say this well I know nobody else considers it eligible but I voted for it anyway attitude makes it very difficult to get any kind of consensus and have a legit, well-rounded Top 100. But, if it's more fun for you to throw votes away, go ahead and chuck as many as you want.



Admittedly Neo Noir is difficult to define, but the basic idea is that it either hits upon similar themes and/or uses similar tropes and trappings as Noir while updating them. Many Classic Films Noir involved crimes and criminals, but the crimes are the plots, not the themes. The French critics who coined the term saw connections in many of these post-WWII Hollywood B-pictures that instead of celebrating American exceptionalism or embracing the sunny hope of the American dream took stylish turns to the dark underbelly and characters who either had no access to that dream or made such poor choices that they removed themselves from its light. Visually and stylistically their cinematic DNA was often from the German Expressionistic school, with shadows and distorted perspective conveying isolation and fear and despair. Film Noir literally means "dark film", both visually and thematically.

When you get to Neo Noir the cultural context is of course very different. By the 1970s and '80s society as a whole had moved on from the optimism of the Eisenhower era, thanks to assassinations, war, Watergate, economic inequalities, etc. Meaning in terms of Noir, it can't simply still be juxtaposition to the light of the mainstream because that light was more complicated and much less bright. Classic Noir had plenty of nihilism, but Neo Noir could depict it much more completely. That doesn't mean that every movie about pessimistic criminals is Neo Noir, nor does having rain and shadows automatically qualify you. Unfortunately for the sake of composing a group list, that makes it inherently difficult as their is no clear definition. It comes down to themes and tone and intent. Mostly what that means is it is open to a lot of interpretation. If you want to call Glengarry Glen Ross or Carlito's Way or whatever else you feel fits Neo Noir, you may. But knowing that only one of our "sources" is labeling it as such should clue you in that it is probably debatable for most and that you may well be voting for something that very few other ballots are even going to consider and therefore nobody else will vote for. To me it seems difficult enough to build consensus among the titles that most if not all sources across the board agree qualify as Neo Noir without adding in odd ducks and special cases. There are so many titles from the 1960s onward that are widely labeled Neo Noir. Why not just focus on them?


But this is not my MoFo List, those decisions are all up to @Thief. I am simply an unpaid consultant.

Just asking, thanks for your elaborate answer.
None of the films I asked about are on my current list, but I have seen them on other 'cinephile' lists. I wasn't sure about a couple of them because I've last seen them 30+ years ago. So if the host or you gives the greenlight on them I would re-watch them so I can make up my own opinion about listing them.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

I've been out all day so I'm just catching up, but thanks to Holden for that insightful reply. The elegibility rules are there to set some tangible boundaries, but I think that pushing those should be a last resort. In line with what Holden said, I think it's better for the countdown to stay more or less within the playground. The farther you go to the fences, the more isolated from the rest you'll be. But at the end of the day, it's up to each and everyone to decide how to vote.

Also, I think it's a good moment to say that, although I will try to peek at each ballot as I receive them, I will do so mostly to check for any absurd choices. At the end of the day, each of you have access to the elegibility rules. It's infinitely easier for each of you to check and double-check your 25 picks than it would be for me to check hundreds of picks; especially as the final weeks approach, so do your due dilligence. Thanks to everybody!

For what it's worth, personally, the only one I see as being "neo-noir" from this bunch is, maybe, King of New York and that's still pushing it a bit. The others are crime thrillers or mere thrillers, or in the case of Glengarry Glen Ross, just a drama. But that's just my personal appreciation. If they are eligible and you feel like voting for them, then go ahead.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

[narrator's voice]

It was a time of chaos. I was moving to a new abode, adjusting my bearings, still getting used to my new surroundings. Everything else fell into second place. I just couldn't concentrate, couldn't find my mind-space. It was the worst of times but I had to get back on the groove. People were counting on me.

[end of narrator's voice]

Just finished Nightmare Alley (2021).
Del Toro unfortunately follows the original too closely, and what we have is an imitation of the first film, rather than a film that holds up on its own merits. Somehow, the film seems sterile, despite capturing the same look and feel as the original. Perhaps that’s the problem. Outside of some good performances, particularly Dafoe, Strathairn, Collette, and especially Blanchett. Even Bradly Cooper is good on this.

None of that matter, however, if the film doesn’t stand out from the original enough to warrant such lofty expectations that were cast upon it.

Not a bad film, but merely ok. Missed opportunity here.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

I haven't seen the original, but here is what I wrote about Del Toro's version...

Nightmare Alley

Most surely not in contention for a spot on my ballot, but we'll see.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

I loved both versions of Nightmare Alley. My review of the 2021 version:

Beautifully filmed and featuring an excellent performance from Bradley Cooper, Nightmare Alley is a winner. The film tells the story in an effective and engaging way. It is a little on the long side, but it doesn't drag and is reasonably well paced. Although it isn't quite as fantastic as the 1947 version, it is a satisfying and entertaining film.

I prefer the original by a decent margin. It’s not a bad film per se, just a disappointing film.

Um, I rewatched Pale Flower and Branded to Kill recently. Both still very good, and I believe by the criteria presented, qualify as neo-noir.


Seeing the Mikey and Nicky thread bumped reminded me that The Killing of a Chinese Bookie is also a movie that is apparently described as a neo-noir that I like a lot.


So, you know, for your consideration and all that.

Thief, what do we think about Dick Tracy? It’s not tagged which seems bizarre to me. One I almost voted for without checking it seems so obvious.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Dick Tracy is a parody of the pre-Noir 1930s gangster pictures. If you really want to call it Neo Noir, I mean...since it's one of those malleable definitions I suppose one can, but it isn't calling upon Noir tropes or themes. It is very purposefully an old-fashioned crime picture, with a wink. In comic book colors. Elements of Madonna's character Breathless Mahoney are the closest to classic Noir, but nothing else around her really is.

crime ≠ Noir
trench coat ≠ Noir

Yes, very much so. I plan on watching Pale Flower finally for this.

I get you. Breathless being an obvious Femme trope makes it feel very Noir to me. I guess Tracy is too much of a hero, but it certainly feels like they are walking that line.

This movie just feels much more Noir to me than a lot of stuff I am seeing come up repeatedly on these Neo lists.

Not a big deal anyway as I am not in love with the movie. I was considering it for the back end.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

I haven't seen Dick Tracy so I defer to those that have seen it. If it's eligible based on our criteria, then you can vote for it.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

I think if you're still largely telling a story based on it, and even if it's a story you still have a serious mindset when telling the story, then I'd say it's noir enough, even if it's strengths aren't in your face.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

And I say if you have to kinda squint to sorta make it fit, why are you bothering when there are a couple thousand titles we can all agree on to chose from? But if one insists on wasting their vote, hey, go right ahead. You'll be the cool kid who has titles on their list nobody else does. Yippee.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Dick Tracy has neo noir in the keywords on imdb and film noir listed as a theme on Letterboxd, so it would definitely be eligible.

Beatty's Dick Tracy is not designated as Neo Noir on IMDb (Action Comedy Crime Music Romance Thriller), not sure where you are looking? But yes, it is on Letterboxd. One of the three isn't supposed to be enough, but again, my personal feeling is vote for whatever you want, but know that when you are choosing something that just barely kinda sorta arguably may qualify, the odds are you are voting for something that most of the rest of us are not even considering, much less voting for. So if you feel so strongly about those kinds of marginal maybes that you just MUST include them, go ahead. But it is essentially a wasted vote and will not help the bottom part of the collective list gain any kind of consensus.

Neo noir is one of the keywords under the storyline section. If you click on 120 more, it will show all of them and neo noir is listed there.

You ever star a conversation and then quickly realize you don’t even want to be a part of it?

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Oh, in the keywords that users can submit? That's the standard? Yowza. According to that wonderful bit of sourcing Dick Tracy is also a movie very well known for "table", "jacket", "saying thank you", and of course "mixed martial arts".

Then yes, clearly Dick Tracy is one of the pillars of Neo Noir. It's as obvious and inarguable as table.

As you were.

Frequently!

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Noir and Neo-noir are not genres (like romance, comedy, horror), which is why we can't use that field as a criteria in IMDb. I made a choice of using the keyword, while pairing it with a second source as backup. Again, the eligibility rules are meant to serve as rough boundaries, but it's up to anyone and everyone to look closely, research, and read about noir and neo-noir to see if what you think fits actually fits. As has been said ad nauseum by many of us, these are two fairly tough types of films to pin down, so there's always gonna be some push/pull and eye-rolls in terms of what one considers is eligible, but we don't have to be facetious or dismissive about it. Part of the goal should be to know more about noir/neo-noir at the end of the countdown. We're all adjusting our bearings here.

A squint would be more like 10% noir. At say this movie's more like 60.

Re: The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread
 

Then by all means, vote the ever-livin' hell out of it.